Talk:Guys and Dolls

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[edit] Time Periods

What is the time period for the stage play? I assumed it was in the 1950's based on one of the songs mentioning "late '48" but I wasn't sure. Does it change with subsequent productions?

i think it is good ...
That's an interesting point, and one I argued with the producer about (gently) when I was in an amateur production of the show.
I don't think there's too much point trying to pin this down, as in fact I think there are numerous small anachronisms and inconsistencies.
  • I think the Runyon stories it is based on refer to the forties.
  • The references to Big Julie being "from Cicero," which is obviously supposed to signify something familiar to the audience, are presumably a reference to Al Capone's gang; Capone died in 1947.
  • In "Take Back Your Mink," the lyrics say "He bought me the fur coat five winters ago, and the gown the following fall/Then the necklace, the bag, the hat and the shoes/That was late forty-eight, I recall." It's not clear how far in the past "late forty-eight" is, but it certainly puts us in the late forties or early fifties. "That was late thirty-eight" would have given just as good an internal rhyme if Loesser had wanted to put it in the forties. The show premiered in 1950 so I think the intention of "late forty-eight I recall" was to set the song in "the present."
  • A key question to which I don't have a very good answer is this. A key plot element is the ready availability of plane flights from New York to Havana. When Sky gets Sarah to agree to have dinner with him at the Cafe Cubana, he says, "It only takes X hours on the plane. And the food is great!" I've never managed to turn up the actual Runyon story, so I don't know if this plays out the same way in Runyon's story. I believe the idea of being able to fly to Havana just to have dinner would not have been thinkable even as an extravagance in the 1940s, so this again for me points to "the present, 1950."
  • "Adelaide's Lament" implies that she is reading some kind of pop-psychology book, and that the notion of "psychosomatic symptoms" is current and trendy. I think that, too, was postwar, with the explosion of interest in Freudian psychology following the emigration of Viennese Jews, including psychiatrists, to New York.
So, my vote is that it is set in "the present," i.e. 1950. I don't remember if the script has anything to say about this. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prone to violence?

How is Sky Masterson prone to violence?

Is someone confusing him with Big Julie, who is implied to be violent from a) the fearful and submissive reactions of other players to his outrageous suggestions, and b) his home town, Cicero, which is commonly identified with Al Capone? Dpbsmith (talk) 10:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Loudonville Elementary 1993 production?

Is this an elementary school production?

What standard of notability to we want to apply here? Do we want to count community theatre productions as revivals?

Should this material be in the article? I'm thinking not. At the very least, we need to have verifiability in the form of a reliable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I love the way it "ran for nearly three nights". What happened on that third night? Template:;-)—Phil | Talk 14:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
They had a cast party with milk and Oreos in the cafetorium? Dpbsmith (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing information on Revivals

Apropos of the various "revivals", we are missing some vital bits of information:

  • Where were the 1976 and 1992 ones staged?
  • Who produced any of them?
  • Should we have a more complete cast list for each one?

—Phil | Talk 14:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Happy Ending"

The item

  • Happy Ending

was recently added to the list of musical numbers. AFAIK there is no song by that name, at least not in the original production. Where does this come from? Was it recently added? Is it in the movie? Is this just a title of convenience given to a snippet of closing dialog and the final reprise of Guys and Dolls on recordings? Or what? Dpbsmith (talk) 11:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The Happy Ending is a one-page reprise of Guys and Dolls. It's in the Musical Theatre International version of the script..Miguel Cervantes 18:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excessively coy description?

Surprisingly, Sky manages to get Sarah to agree to the date, putting Nathan in even worse condition. Over the course of their date, Sky manages to break down Sarah's social barriers, and they begin to fall for each other.

Social barriers? Begin to fall for each other? Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but "If I Were A Bell" seems to me at least as explicit than, say, the Hollywood convention of the time: couple kisses, then cut to exploding skyrockets.

And I don't think it was really "cider" in Nathan's ear, either. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha, this is a very interesting point. Re: Sky and Sarah's Cuban date: Well, I didn't see the original Broadway production, but I have seen a regional production. Although Sarah gets very drunk, and the lyrics of "If I Were A Bell" certainly imply "something", I seem to think that Sky is a "gentleman" and does not take advantage of the situation--or Sarah.JeanColumbia 14:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
In the movie, there's no way they went beyond kissing. Indeed, just before "If I Were a Bell", they have a conversation where Sarah seems to be suggesting it, and Sky (by now, falling in love with her) says no, you don't know what you're getting into. — Lawrence King (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some changes that i made

Hey I made some changes on the page so that it would be more organized. The lists of casts and beneath each show seemed rather pointless, and it has been bothering me for a little bit of time now. On the How to Succeedd in Buisness Without Really Trying page i noticed they had it a small table on the page comparing who has played which parts in which productions. I adapted a similar version of that table for Guys and Dolls. I also moved the picture to the top of the page. Props for whoever loaded that picture.--Kiwiboy1221 00:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Kiwiboy1221--I think that chart helps immensely when there are so many productions. I think this article is ready to be rated--it surely is more than a stub now. Does anyone know how to ask for an assessment?JeanColumbia 14:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I just realized that the template is for a FILM stub, rather than a THEATER stub. I'll try to find out how to get this assessed, anyway.JeanColumbia 14:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Broadway leads

Shouldn't the lead players in the original Broadway performance be named? — Lawrence King (talk) 06:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I added them to the top. I know they appear in the table at the bottom, but it seems odd for the first mention of Vivian Blaine to be as a star of the movie. — Lawrence King (talk) 06:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] high-roller/ high roller hyphenated?

High-roller (or high roller) appears four times in various forms in the current article, hyphenated twice of the four. Is it truly hyphenated? and why is a link to "high roller" only supplied in the last appearance on the page? I believe it is not supposed to be hyphenated, because the article high roller is not hyphenated. Yelling Bird 02:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separating the Acts

In the synopsis and song list, would someone kindly indicate where Act II begins? I suggest adding this at the top of each act:

Act I
Act II

--Ssilvers 20:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Versions?

I recall playing sax for my high school's production of Guys and Dolls. My favorite instrumental was "Havana Escapade", which is hard to find. The audio recording I own (a CD) didn't have the same Havana Escapade that I played. I see from the comments here that there are multiple versions of the musical. So, maybe a discussion of what's different among versions would be good. Bugmuncher (talk) 06:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IBDb link and template

The first [Guys_and_Dolls#External_links|external link], to the IBDb entry for the show, was implemented with an ibdb template and went to http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?id=4133 , which is about a specific production of "A Talent for Murder".

I've substituted the correct link, which is http://www.ibdb.com/Show.asp?id=4133 (with "Show" instead of "production"). Since I don't know how that template is supposed to work and won't put time into it now, I just used a straightforward external link. Thnidu (talk) 03:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Menton in seinfeld?

Does this really need its own section? I'm sure there have been a lot of other cultural references... Josh 01:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right. AJD (talk) 01:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)