Talk:Guy Fawkes Night

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Guy Fawkes Night article.
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This article uses British English dialect and spelling.
According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Contents

[edit] Baked Apples?

This has always been a tradition for my family - baked cooking apples on bonfire night, with the core removed and the space where it was filled with currants, sultanas, golden syrup and demerara sugar is how we do it. I know of others who do something similar - I just wondered whether it was a widely done thing, or perhaps just a Sussex thing? It would be excellent if others would verify this as a popular thing, if they do do this, so we could get it included in the article. Of course, if it isn't popular, then there's no need for this.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Curtis

80.229.16.243 20:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a tradition in my family (in Kennington, London) as well. -- Korax1214 (talk) 05:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] celebrated for...

The introducion implies that the event is for celebrating the attempt blow up our parliament and King. This is not the case, though it deffinately has been interpreted (wrongly) by a fair number of people. The event commemorates the FAILURE to blow up our King and parliament. Thats why we burn effigied of Guy Fawkes, not effigies of King James. Its why Remember Remember the fifth of November finished with "God Save the King", why it describes how Guy Fawkes was caught in the nick of time "By Gods mercy".== mentioned in movie V for Vendetta == The 5th of novmber is mentioned in the movie V for Vendetta and is very prominate in the movie it probaly should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.228.125 (talk) 23:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Protectorates

Changed "British Protectorates" New Zealand, South Africa, the province of Newfoundland and Labrador (Canada) to "British colonies"...etc., since the term protectorate was not a correct description of the former condition of these nations/provinces.kuk

[edit] Precursor to Guy Fawkes

Bonfire Night didn't just spring into existence in 1605. It was a part of the Hallowe'en celebration that dates back to Celtic times. I don't have enough facts to justify this, except for some web pages that I don't entirely trust, so I will wait for more proof before doing any editing. --Heron 14:08, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, go on. You could at least just state it, that'd be better than what's there currently, right?
"Some believe the nearness of the event to the pre-Christian festival of Samhain Eve and Halloween is significant, but it is generally agreed that this is a coincidence."
I was going to ask what the source was for this 'general agreement'. I remember reading that shortly after the discovery of the plot bonfires sprang up across England. Hard to believe everyone just thought it would be a nice idea!
BBC.co.uk makes reference to the festival's pagan overtones, and I'm sure we could find more evidence elsewhere, but I think we should get rid of the giant, unwieldy Graham Phillips quote. Most of it has little to do with the article and some Holy Blood, Holy Grail type book isn't the best historical source.
I agree. I am printing this entry for an English discussion class but the text on the precurser to Bonfire Night is obviously put in later and doesn't sit well with what comes before and answer. I am taking it out for my class. Can't it go at the end as an extra piece of interest? Tom Nickalls

Well Guy Fawkes Night may not have just sprung into existance in 1605 but the Act of Parliament of 1606 (3 James I, cap 1) entitled ‘An Acte for a publique Thancksgiving to Almighty God everie yeere of the Fifte day of November’ probably helped. The Act remained in force until 1859. [[1]]

As for Samhain, I think you may be confusing a rather quiet spiritual commune with the souls, spirits or whatever, of the departed, for which there already existed 3 celebrations - all hallows eve, all saints day and all souls day, with the modern child centred 'holiday' of halloween.

while looking for references for firework night, I came across this interesting chronology, that may be of interest here [[2]].

I also stumbled across this entry in the parish record for all saints church in hereford dated 1627

mending the chymes; ringing and lights on November fifth; work on the bells; new seats and "reading place"; an hour-glass for the pulpitt; irons for holding the weather-cock; the church coffin 1627; stocks at the High Cross 1627; major repairs to the steeple in 1625; sending back to London a woman with the plague, 1625; sums paid to "the doggkeeper"; payment from the poor box; tenants of "the shop under the church", 1638; payment for ringing the bells on "the Kings Crowne Nation day" 1641; ringing to celebrate "the Scots' overthrow in the North, and the King's victory in the West, 1644; ringing "when Lambert was routed" 1659-60.

hope you find it interesting. 81.102.245.79 23:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newfoundland Celebration

To the best of my knowledge, the Canadian province of Newfoundland also celebrates Guy Fawkes night (aka Bonfire Night)--the only place in North America to do so. Will find a scholarly citation before adding this to the article proper. --anonymous user, 28 June 2005.

I am from Newfoundland, and it is true we do celebrate Guy Fawkes night. Maybe a line about that should be mentioned in the article? --142.162.204.130 19:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dating use of Fireworks

Currently in the main article: "In recent years it has also become the primary night for fireworks displays in Britain". Recent years? I can personally testify that's 50 years at least. Anybody know when Guy Fawkes Night also became Fireworks Night? --Stibbs 04Nov05

at christ church, oxford, there are drawings in both the buttery and the graduate common room which depict guy fawkes night in peckwater quad in the 1880s, complete with fireworks. Ptomng 11:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


I thought fireworks dated from ancient China. It is even possible that a form of firework, something like a small bomb that could be fired into the air, was used when Guy Fawkes was burned. pinster2001 @ 31/10/06

[edit] Move requested

An uncontroversial move, but I can't do it myself because that page has history. --Quuxplusone 01:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Support, just so people don't think that this is unsupported. :-) James F. (talk) 20:13, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 22:34, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

i am a recreation director in the Labrador portion of Newfoundsland, each year one of my bigger tasks is to organize a guy fawkes bonfire night...of course not many people know of the gunpowder conspiracy etc...but the bonfire with guy on the to is a huge tradition. we hand out wieners and marshmallows and apples for roasting and juice to drink. the event brings out young and old alike and is a part of our culture.

I am originally from Grand Bank, Newfoundland (Burin Peninsula) and we used to have a massive bonfire on the beach every 5 November for Guy Fawkes night (we usually just called it Bonfire night). There was marshmallows and wieners for roasting, as well has hot chocolate. The town's fire marshall stopped the celebrations for a number of years, but it has since resumed. In my father's home town (Harbour Mille - also on the Burin Peninsula), the kids would collect old barrels, dead spruce/fir limbs (called Fortune screachers) for weeks and light a number of fires so that the entire town would be as light as day. C. Dean Barnes, Montreal

[edit] Celebration of several weeks

Hello. The introduction says:

"although in recent years the celebration has spread out to encompass a period of several days or even weeks before or after the exact date."

Is it actually correct to say this? My impression, from New Zealand, is that people aren't always celebrating Guy Fawkes Night simply because they're letting off fireworks. It's more a matter having fireworks available, which they are at that time of year, and setting them off opportunistically. People do let fireworks off on alternative nights because of weather problems, occasionally because the 5th is inconvenient, or maybe just because they like blowing them up and can't be bothered waiting for the official night. As far as I can tell, though, November 5th is still the only time of year that's properly associated with Guy Fawkes celebrations. I've never heard of Guy Fawkes Week or Guy Fawkes Month. Izogi 04:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Definitely, Izogi - you've hit the nail on the head. In the UK, Diwali is also celebrated around this time, also using fireworks, so the fun lasts usually around three weeks or so. There have been kids letting off fireworks just under my flat window for about three hours solid now (and for the last five days or so), and it's still 9 days to the 5th. It's probably more accurate to say they're celebrating the availability of fireworks rather than Guy Fawkes' night :) Natgoo 19:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
On further reading, that whole section seems redundant. Unless someone is willing to provide a compelling argument for keeping it, I'll remove it. Natgoo 19:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


A late note, but it does stretch over a week at least. Many bonfires and public celebrations are held on the Friday or Saturday night closest to the 5th as it is not a public holiday.

To add to the poster above, many Bonfire societies stagger their bonfires around the weekends preceding to November 5th. This is to allow a maximum attendance. It's quite common in the south of England to attend several bonfire nights in one month in several towns and villages. Guy Fawkes night is Nov 5th, Bonfire night for a particular locale can be on any given date the society decides.

[edit] The rhyme

Do we need it twice on the same page? Really? Ben-w 08:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe that there is a "second agenda" in Guy Fawkes Night, a belief supported by the lyrics of the second stanza:

Supposedly, Guy Fawkes Day/Night celebrates the uncovering of the Gunpowder Plot in 1605 to blow up Parliament and King James I. That day was celebrated for a few years and then died out. In 1689, Protestant Prince William of Orange overthrew Catholic King James II on November 5 (which had earlier been Guy Fawkes Day) to become King William III. The holiday was revived under its original name, although the motive and spirit of the celebration was the Protestant victory over Catholics.

The above quotes only myself composing a letter of factoids for a publisher of books of trivia. Dick Kimball 16:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Numerous variations on the rhyme appear on the net, most of which (like the version in the article) have no source quoted. Clearly any traditional rhyme will have wide variations in the lyrics so how have we got such a definative version?

A quick look through some dated sources give a couple of variations on the first part of the first stanza

Remember, Remember!

The fifth of November,

The Gunpowder treason and plot;

There is no reason

Why the Gunpowder treason

Should ever be forgot!

From: The Book of Days: A Miscellany of Popular Antiquities in Connection with the Calender. By Robert Chambers. Pub 1832 by W & R Chambers Ltd.


Or:


Please to remember the fifth of November

Gunpowder treason and plot;

We know no reason, why gunpowder treason

Should ever be forgot!

From: The Every-day Book: Or Everlasting Calendar of Popular Amusements, Sports, Pastimes, Ceremonies. By William Hone. Pub 1826 by Hunt and Clarke


The next bit runs along these lines:


A stick and stake

For (King James) sake, (alt; King George's or Queen Victoria's)

A stick and a stump

For (old Oliver's) rump (alt; Guy Fawke's)


The second verse doesn't appear in any books I could find, but was published in two seperate letters to a magazine


A rope, a rope, to hang the pope,

A (penn'orth) of cheese to choke him, (alt; pound)

A pint of beer to wash it down,

and a jolly good fire to (roast) him (alt; burn)

From: Notes & Queries (magazine) December 19 1908


The rhyme then ends (with or without the second verse)


Holla Boys! Holla Boys! (Make) the bells ring (alt; let)

Holla Boys! Holla Boys! God save the (King) (alt; Queen)

Hip! Hip! Hip! Hooray!

Mighty Antar 02:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canada?

I'm from Canada, have lived in every part of it except Newfoundland and can report that it is not a holiday and not celebrated. Should also point out that the way the line reads ( ...South Africa Newfoundland, Canada) is a bit confusing since Newfoundland is a province of Canada. An analogy might be coming across a list like " New Zealand, Lancashire, South Africa, England" or "New Zealand,Wisconsin, South Africa, U.S.A";

(PRedfern writes:) The analogy is not quite correct since Newfoundland & Labrador did not join the Canadian Confederation until 1948. Until then Newfoundland was a separate colony/dominion within the British Empire. Until 1948 indeed, Newfoundland & Labrador was Britain's oldest N.American colony. After 1948, it was Canada's youngest province.

That history of independence (Newfoundland - Canada's Texas?!!) presumably would also explain why, if a tradition of celebrating Guy Fawkes/Bonfire night was established there, that tradition would not necessarily extend to any of the other Canadian provinces (Quebec especially!).

[edit] USA??

I am 76 years old, and have lived in New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California, and Washington. I have, or had, relatives living in South Carolina, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Illinois, and Maryland. I have never heard of Guy Fawkes Night being celebrated anywhere in the USA. But I may be wrong. If no one can provide more information, I plan to correct the article. Too Old 16:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Checkout The Center For Fawkesian Pursuits
Thanks to Jooler, who inserted the above reference. I had already found out that, because of the English backgrounds of many of the early colonists, Guy Fawkes Night was widely celebrated in the colonial period. It also has been adopted in some areas as an excuse for a bonfire and a party. Never too old to learn. Too Old 18:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Too Old, I can confirm that it celebrated to a small degree in New Orleans, where it is referred to simply as "Guy Fawkes Day" and lasts for 24 hours from the stroke of midnight until it technically becomes the 6th the next day. It's worth adding, I think, but unfortunately it is impossible to source anything because revelers are notoriously secretive- Guy Fawkes day in New Orleans is seen as a day that nothing you do "counts" and in fact "never happened".

As i just put in the discussion for Gunpowder plot- Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated yearly in Westerly, Rhode Island.

[edit] Waste of time

I spent some time removing the stale, clichéd American bollocks (proximity, primary night, blah blah) from an article on a British topic, but it's all back again. Another good example of what's wrong with Wikipedia -- its tendency to revert to the lowest common demoninator -- is this sentence:

"Some believe the proximity of the event to the pre-Christian festival of Samhain Eve and Halloween are notable, but it is generally agreed that this is a coincidence."

How many people have edited the article w/o spotting that the verb doesn't agree with its subject? And when someone finally corrects it, the mistake is back within the day. Hopfrog 12:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Hopfrog has inserted an all-too-common sample of British snobbery. (The Brits -- or at least their "nobility" -- seem to have invented snobbery.) I note above that I have recently learned that Guy Fawkes Night was celebrated during the American colonial period, and is, in fact, also part of American tradition, partly because of predjudice against [Irish] Catholics in the USA in times gone by. As for grammatical errors (note the disparity between the singular "it's" and the plural antecedant "bollocks" above) such persnickety pettifoggery is simply rude (another British specialty). Too Old 19:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Bollocks, (in the context of nonsense rather than testicles), like like money and news is singular, when the plural is required, one might same something like "what a load of bollocks" Jooler 19:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Point taken, Jooler. Too Old 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Potter

Is there correlation between Dumbledore’s phoenix Fawkes and Guy Fawkes? My reasoning is that J. K. Rowling is from England and must know about the fifth of November, and since the man tried to set fire – or destroy – the parliament, so I though, knowing about that story, that it would make a nice name for the phoenix. (Speculation here, not sure of it all, and my memory is hazy). Someone else sees something here? mandragorae 20:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

JKR is from Scotland, not England. :p But being thus British, she indeed named Fawkes for Guy Fawkes. (I'm from England if anyone's wondering.) -- Korax1214 (talk) 05:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
J. K. Rowling definitely knows about Bonfire Night, since she mentions it in the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. Seems pretty clear to me that the phoenix was named after Guy Fawkes. Pruneau 16:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the reference here simply because it is a reference to Guy Fawkes rather than Guy Fawkes night, and thus is already noted on the Guy Fawkes page. In addition, I have also removed some of the other pop culture references - if we mentioned every reference to Guy Fawkes Night ever made in pop culture the list would go on for ever. My feeling is that the only references that should be included on this page are works in which Guy Fawkes Night is central to the plot/song/whatever. Hence - a Simpsons episode that revolves around Guy Fawkes Day: yes. Bart mentions Guy Fawkes day in passing: no 195.97.248.74 16:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jack Presbyter

It seems like the Tory response to the Guy Fawkes effigy - Jack Presbyter - should be included in the article. I'm not sure where, though.

[edit] Vandalism?

"For centuries, live cats were tied up and placed in the interiors of the effigies to make desirable sound effects as they burned. The practice of including cats is long discontinued." That was added on 22 Jan 06 by 207.200.116.133. Checking edits by that IP address a day either side of that date show a mixture of good edits and clear vandalism. So I'm deleting it until somebody produces evidence. --Farry 20:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I've heard that in a lecture but I don't have a source. --Jordansc 04:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Safety Concerns

The section on Safety concerns is presumably specific to the United Kingdom. However, this is not explicitly stated. While I agree that there are probably common concerns in all the places that celebrate with fireworks, the section is more about one country's reaction to those concerns. In New Zealand, one issue is that of personal injury from irresponsible use, while another issues is the threat to public safety as a result of either accident or abuse causing wildfires and property damage. Here the reaction has been the banning of the sale of sky-rockets and crackers, along with a call for the prohibition of all fireworks for personal use. I understand that the similar concerns lead to the banning of fireworks in the state of Victoria, in Australia, 20 years ago, but as ACT and Northern Territory still celebrate, interstate fireworks smuggling is a concern there. I think the Safety concerns section needs clarification as it is currently misleading. There possibly also needs to be a section about legislative controls that covers what may be sold in which countries and when fireworks may be used. -- Cameron Dewe 21:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Fireworks only used in the weeks before since 2000? Do we have a source for this? Secretlondon 21:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Cut and paste removed

I've taken out the following passage which somebody has just lifted from the "TVNZ" website:

"On the 29th of October 2006, a week before Guy Fawkes Night and a few days after fireworks had been put on sale in New Zealand, the NZ Fire Service had already had enough. Fire stations across the North Island have been inundated with calls resulting from the reckless use of pyrotechnics. It seems fireworks lovers around the wider Auckland region have had the greatest number of mishaps. Fire Service spokesman Steve Smith says there were two hours of non-stop fireworks call-outs between 9pm and 11pm on Saturday night. Fire stations servicing the Central North Island also reported dangerous use of fireworks, including several skips and letterboxes being set alight. The Fire Service wants fieworks to be banned."

It also seems to adopt the tone of somebody with an axe to grind and lacks any kind of balance.


[edit] Everything gone?

Where has everything gone. There is no information on this article? pinster2001 @ 30/10/06

[edit] Accurate title

I am doubtful that we have the best title for this article. I have never heard this called 'Guy Fawkes Night' or indeed 'Fireworks Night'. Having lived in a number of places across the UK I have almost always heard this called 'Bonfire Night', except in northern England where it can be referred to as 'Plot Night'. What do others think (especially those from CA, Au & NZ)?


- I agree, never heard of it being referred to as 'Guy Fawkes Night' always 'Bonfire Night' or 'Bommy Night' Boothuk 12:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

- In Scotland its widely known as Guy Fawkes Night, so the title is just right as far as we are concerned Scancoaches 12:15 6 November 2006 (UTC)

- In my experience "bonfire night" is more common, but "Guy Fawkes Night" does not sound particularly odd, so I see no real need for change. Alihaig 14:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

My preference would be to move the page to Bonfire Night. That gets 894,000 Ghits [3]; Guy Fawkes Night gets only 276,000 [4]. However, Bonfire Night is currently a disambiguation page for several festivals, so a move would involve a bit of faffing around. DWaterson 22:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The title is really counterintuative - in the vast majority of the UK the 5th November is always referred to as "Bonfire Night"


Historically it was Guy Fawkes Day or Gunpowder Treason. It was a public holiday in the UK from 1606 to 1859 and was marked by the church with a special form of prayer to be given on November 5th.
Although fireworks were used to commemorate the event from an early stage, the bonfire night and firework night titles only became more significant after the public holiday was dropped and the night-time celebrations became the main point of significance\.
As bonfires were common at almost all celebrations until the 18th-19th century, Bonfire Night would not have automatically meant a bonfire on November 5th and the disambiguation page for Bonfire Night shows that this is still an issue. Firework Night is really a 20th century term that has come into popular useage as fireworks have become easier and cheaper to obtain and people have come to think of them as an essential part of the event. Here are some links to some historical sources [[5]], [[6]], and a link with historical source information [[7]]. I'd stick with Guy Fawkes Night as it is distinct and there is no way easy way of ensuring all the Google hits for Bonfire Night refer specifically to November 5th. Mighty Antar 10:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ACT

There is a link when talking about the banning of fireworks in Australia to "ACT" but this is just a huge disambiguation page, could someone clear up the link so it points to the correct article? Alihaig 14:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baked Potatoes

Is it really nessecary to mention baked potatoes? They are not exclusive to bonfire night and are only provided because they are easy to cook outside and are good warming food on a cold night. They have the same significance as burgers or sausages which are not mentioned here. Alihaig 14:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No they do not have the same significance as burgers!! Baked potatoes are traditionally baked in the bonfire, while "burgers" are just American convenience foods having no cultural connection! 62.253.48.73 22:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I would say they're quite a key thing, but perhaps there could just be a sentence mentioning that warming food is particularly popular on the night - such a burgers, hot dogs, baked fruit and veg, soup etc.

80.229.16.243 20:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NT

I am concerned with the accuracy of this article in relation to Australia. We still use fireworks in the Northern Territory every July 2nd to celebrate our independence from the other states. I believe but can not be certain that it is an extension of Guy Fawkes Night just given a new moniker to justify its relevance to Australia.

I used to celebrate Guy Fawkes Night in Melbourne. It was always on the 5th of November. Territory Day (the celebration of self-governance, not independence) has no connection with Guy Fawkes night and has only been around since 1978. I also corrected your spelling. ~ Brother William 10:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Revolution

One thing that is important to bring up but I don't have the time to ellaborate is the fact that Guy Fawkes Day was a holiday in the US whose organizational mechanisms was used to begin proto phase of the American revolution in 1765,in the US it was a holiday the poorer classes used to express their frustrations in society it was a wide scale relflection of a class struggle mentality against the elites that had risen beyond the normal stations of society. The organzation of the festiveties lead to the destruction of homes of prominent British loyalists in Boston. The violence had a repose for a couple years after the British repealed the Stamp act in 1766 until of course the major phase of the revolution began a few years later.

[edit] Traditional Rhymes

Where on earth has the version of the traditional rhyme shown on the page come from. Numerous variations appear on the net as 'The Rhyme' most of which (like the version in the article) have no source quoted.

I propose to substitue the following unless a definiative source is given:-

From: The Book of Days: A Miscellany of Popular Antiquities in Connection with the Calender. By Robert Chambers. Pub 1832 by W & R Chambers Ltd.

Remember, Remember!

The fifth of November,

The Gunpowder treason and plot;

There is no reason

Why the Gunpowder treason

Should ever be forgot!


Or:

From: The Every-day Book: Or Everlasting Calendar of Popular Amusements, Sports, Pastimes, Ceremonies. By William Hone. Pub 1826 by Hunt and Clarke

Please to remember the fifth of November

Gunpowder treason and plot;

We know no reason, why gunpowder treason

Should ever be forgot!


The second part of the first stanza runs along these lines:


A stick and stake

For (King James) sake, (alt; King George's or Queen Victoria's)

A stick and a stump

For (old Oliver's) rump (alt; Guy Fawke's)


The second verse doesn't appear in any books I could find, but was published in two seperate letters to a magazine From: Notes & Queries (magazine) December 19 1908

A rope, a rope, to hang the pope,

A (penn'orth) of cheese to choke him, (alt; pound)

A pint of beer to wash it down,

and a jolly good fire to (roast) him (alt; burn)


The rhyme then ends (whether sung with or without the second verse)


Holla Boys! Holla Boys! (Make) the bells ring (alt; let)

Holla Boys! Holla Boys! God save the (King) (alt; Queen)

Hip! Hip! Hip! Hooray! Remember remember the fifth of November Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason Should ever be forgot...


Clearly any 'traditional' rhyme spread by word of mouth will have wide variations in the lyrics, but for a topic as popular as this one, we could at least aim for something with a historical source. Mighty Antar 17:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hollow Men

The "Hollow Men" segment is completely wrong (but actually right in a roundabout way). The poem was actually referencing the novel Heart of Darkness, which, in turn, referenced Guy Fawkes. The "Mistah Kurtz" is Kurtz from the novel, and the reference in the poem is simply just an homage to the original novel. User: Brentkc49 10:13, 28 October 2007

Remember remember the fifth of November Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason Should ever be forgot... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.64.195 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Remember remember the fifth of November Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason Should ever be forgot... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.64.195 (talk) 20:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guy Fawkes Night Header Content Biased

The opening of the Guy Fawkes Night page claims that Guy Fawkes Night celebrates the foiling of an plot...This is only partly true. In some parts it does celebrate the foiling of the attack, but in others it celebrates the attempt itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.230.114.118 (talk) 01:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Almost nobody (including myself) knows what exactly was oiginally being celebrated - whether Guy Fawkes attempt or his capture - its just a reason for some winter excitement, especially for children. Also, any political or religious significance it may have once had has now been completely forgotten. 62.253.48.73 22:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is citation needed for everything? Including toffee apples?

I don't understand why a citation is needed to show that toffee apples are eaten. Do we need citations for such widely known facts? I mean, if we're going to be that petty, why don't we say a citation is needed to say that it's on 5 November, and another to show that it happens every year... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.145.111 (talk) 10:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm with you. Some people go a little citation-happy on Wikipedia. Some things just are, whether doctoral dissertations are written about them or not. Harukaze 15:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's partly down to me... Originally there was just one "citation needed" for the whole foods section, but when I added in a reference for parkin, I moved separate ones onto all of the other foods with no citation yet.

And not everything in that section is "widely known". For example, I have never ever heard of people eating black peas with vinegar (which User:Dunc1971 added yesterday) ... Clearly, there is some regional variation, so how would someone from another region - or even another country - know whether something is true, without a source?

I know the article is currently full of "citation needed" markers, and that they look annoying, but one of those markers was the only reason I went to chase up the parkin newspaper article I'd read the day before. And surely there are two solutions here: to take the citation markers out, or to find citations! ;) KittyRainbow 15:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've now found and added some sources about these traditional foods - all except for groaty pudding, which I just could not find anything on. (Oh, and I also found a source that says it happens every year on November 5...! ;) ) KittyRainbow (who apparently spends all of her time winking) 17:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
You can't quote a Guardian (or any other newspaper) article as factual source (esp. one that suggests Fawkes was burned at the stake!), or can you? ;) 20.133.0.14 13:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Well unless they've invented a time machine, The Guardian is clearly not a primary source for this!! XD But as a source that says in modern times, we a) celebrate Guy Fawkes Night every year, and b) do so on the 5th November... well, maybe. Not that I really think we need a source for that, I was just being silly. KittyRainbow 14:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] State legislation

I think the main article should at least mention the important position held until 1859, in which year considerable changes were made to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. By state legislation, celebrations on 5 Nov were mandatory. The church service (Happy deliverance of Parliament from Gunpowder and Treason)for that day was the chief focus, and was part of the State Services in the Book of Common Prayer from 1605 to 1859. Innovations such as guys,wheelbarrows and collecting pennies, bonfires, masks, and (last of all) fireworks were later additions to enhance for children the solemnity of this day of thanksgiving.By 1859, the reign of George IV and some unpopular parliamentary legislation had no doubt convinced the populace that the decapitation of monarchs (the service for the deliverance of Charles II was also abolished) and the entering of parliament with honest intentions were perhaps not always necessarily deplorable activities.Colcestrian 20:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sales of Fireworks banned in New Zealand!

I have changed the section about the Southern Hemisphere, announcing the ban of the sales of fireworks in New Zealand, deleting all about the fireworks except Helen Clark's comment about the bad behaviour of youths with fireworks.

In New Zealand,the sale of fireworks have recently been banned, as on Guy Fawkes Night 2007, there were many "little" accidents, including a child being badly burnt, and a house being burnt down.Helen Clark, the Prime Minister  considered banning fireworks in New Zealand earlier in 2007 'if New Zealanders "behave badly" on Guy Fawkes night this year.'[1]

Should this change stay, or will it be edited? Please decide for me wether we should edit this text, and me it more specific. Thin Smek 22:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmn, maybe Bonfire Night is not celebrated in countries where they have wooden houses, for obvious reasons. 62.253.48.73 22:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google co uk does not celebrate Bonfire Night

...while at the same time subjecting people in the UK to lots of American festivals that mean nothing to us. 62.253.48.73 22:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes Night is celebrated in an episode of Mulberry starring Karl Howman as the "Son of Death". They stuff a guy and put him atop a large bonfire, eat sausages and baked potatoes and set off fireworks. The series ran for two seasons beginning in 1992. Lovely British comedy. 70.105.110.128 (talk) 07:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)Beverly Davis

[edit] Penny For the Guy

I don't know about anyone else, but on my observation this (former?) custom seems to have died out, at least in London.

Possible reasons are (1) the fact that there are too many beggars these days, giving rise to general distaste for the practice; or parental concern for the safety of their children, leading to banning of customs/practices which are seen as risky or possibly so. Maybe other reasons as well.

Perhaps those who are better researchers than I could look into this and work it into the article. -- Korax1214 (talk) 05:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)