Talk:Guthrum

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[edit] Gutthrum versus Gorm

It would be helpful to have some explanation of why he is called Guthrum yet his Danish name was Gorm.

In oldday you translated names. It was complicated, but only few people travelled.Håbet 23:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a misunderstanding here. Guthrum is Guthrum in Danish according to the New Danish Encyclopedia and the newest History of Denmark (vol. 3 written by the historian Peter Sawyer (English by the way)), and there may be a successor to Guthrum the 1. called Guthrum the 2., but we only know his name from a false treaty and he may not have existed. Gorm den Gamle (the Old) on the other hand is King of Denmark around the beginning and middle of the 10th century, and as far as is known Gorm was busy "forming" (I don't know the correct english word) the Danish Kingdom. Later on his grandson Sven Tveskæg (Forkbeard) around 1000 a.d. conquered large parts of England, but that is another story. (20th August 2006 Peter Staugaard)

[edit] Athelstan

By adopting the Christian name of Aethelstan which was also the name of Alfred the Great’s eldest brother

Is this correct? Athelstan was certainly the name of Alfred's grandson, the son of Edward the Elder, but Alfred the Great's brothers are given as Ethelbald, Ethelbert and Ethelred I in his wikipedia entry. I'm requesting a citation for this and will remove it soon if one is not forthcoming. Alun 09:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

ASC Ms A (s.a. 836 for 839) : "7 feng Æþelwulf Ecgbrehting to Wesseaxna rice, 7 he salde his suna Æþelstane Cantwara rice 7 Eastseaxna 7 Suþrigea 7 Suþseaxna." Athelstan son of Ethelwulf son of Ecgberht was still alive in 851 it appears, but is not named thereafter that I can see. The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England mentions Athelstan (fifth and eldest son) in the Æthelwulf article but doesn't give a date for his death. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the cite, it may be that this is mentioned in one of the sources in the references section, but it's not clear. I will leave it as it is. Actually it makes sense that Alfred would choose Athelstan as a name in that case, and it makes sense that it would be the name of his grandson if it were a family name anyway. Couldn't find reference to this (brother) Athelstan in The Age of Athelstan by Paul Hill, though he does mention Athelstan who was an Ealdorman of East-Anglia and contemporaneous with the Athelstan. Alun 16:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image from Saxo

Thyra Danebod informs King Gorm about his sons Knud's death. Saxo tell: Thyra was daughter of Aethelred and Thyra was living after the death of King Gorm, opposite a later King Gorm of Denmark who make a runic stone in memory of his wife

Arigato1 added an image of a different Gorm the old. I have removed the image from this article, but I strongly encourage Arigato1 to add it to the proper page: Gorm the Old.--The trollfighter 12:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saxo

Then Saxo write a History of Denmark, he had problems by sources. He solve problem by stealing the Danish kings of Danelaw, from a History of England. The name Gorm/Guthrum the Old be due to of the two Gorm/Guthrum of Danelaw, The older and the younger.--Håbet 22:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Gorm, Gottorm and Guthrum is samme name in Danish, in Norse and in English.--Håbet 22:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

informs King Gorm about his sons Knud's death in Ireland. Saxo tell: Thyra was daughter of Aethelred/Ethelred of England and Thyra was living after the death of King Gorm, opposite a later King Gorm of Denmark who make a runic stone in memory of his wife, and somebody read her name Tyrwi, not Thyra --Håbet 22:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

http://medlem.spray.se/abujaftiel/saxo09.html Dan 9.11.2 (p. 266,18)

The various Guthrums are a problem area. We also have Guthrum II of East Anglia, so this person should be Guthrum I of East Anglia. However this person is clearly the best known of the name, and we also have Gorm the Old. I propose moving this page to Guthrum I of East Anglia, Guthrum should redirect here, and we have a Guthrum (disambiguation) article. Do we have serious grounds for believing Guthrum II is unhistorical? PatGallacher (talk) 11:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Although, where a name has belonged to the kings of only one country, according to Wikipedia standards we may not need to disambiguate using "of East Anglia". PatGallacher (talk) 11:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

We have Guthrum II‎, unfortunately. See my comments at Talk:Guthrum II‎ for reasons why we shouldn't. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

So I have proposed deletion of Guthrum II. The only thing less useful than an article which is misleading is a referenced article which is misleading and for which better references cannot be found. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)