Talk:Guqin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Guqin article.
Article policies
Archives: 1
Former featured article Guqin is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 20, 2006.
Peer review This Arts article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale (comments).
Guqin is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.
This article was the selected article of the China Portal in December 2006.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (add comments)
More information about this article...
Music
Portal
Guqin is within the scope of WikiProject Music genres, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardise music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the project guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us assess and improve genre articles to good and 1.0 standards.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.


This article is within the scope of WikiProject Musical Instruments, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Musical Instruments articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.
Guqin is within the scope of the WikiProject Regional and national music, an attempt at building a resource on the music of all the peoples and places of the world. Please visit the project's listing to see the article's assessment and to help us improve the article as we push to 1.0.

Contents

Acknowledgements The main contributor of this article (Charlie Huang) would like to thank the following people for their help in this article:

  • Badagnani for copy-editing
  • Wang Fei for help and permission to use information/images of the this and its sister articles, and corrections
  • John Thompson for suggestions of improvement and copy-editing
  • Cheng Yu for her support
  • Julian Joseph for corrections of mistakes and errors
  • Christopher Evans for suggestions
  • Marnix Wells for suggesting a correction of POV
  • Jim Binkley for his valuable information on qin construction
  • Stephen Dydo for suggesting additions
  • The qin community as a whole for their support

[edit] Articles on the qin

The progress of the main qin articles:

[edit] Minor articles

The progress of minor qin articles:

[edit] Tools

Relevant tools and stuff to use in qin related articles.

[edit] Punctuation

  • 「 」: Personal/subject matter names, quotes, etc
  • 『 』: Technical names and terms
  • 【 】: Books
  • 〖 〗: Product names/terms
  • 《 》: Names of melodies, literature, titles, etc
  • 〈 〉: Name or term specific to the subject in question (e.g. name of techniques, tunings, etc)
  • 〔 〕: Special term of a particular subject
  • ( ) : Translations into English or Chinese equivalent

[edit] Templates

[edit] Discussion

Archive
Archives
Archive 1: Aug 2005 — Sept 2006


Please add new points of discussion and questions about the article at the bottom of the page.

[edit] Too long tag

OK, I added the too long tag because the article is one of the longer ones on all of Wikipedia, and should be split into sub-articles. It's 3 or 4 times the suggested length. I'm going to add it back in; if you think there's a good reason to remove it, please explain why here. Also, please assume good faith; I was not adding the tags wantonly without a desire to engage on talk page. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 06:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, I think the article has reached its zenith and won't grow much longer anymore. I'm reluctant to reduce it as I don't want to lose important information. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm cutting, moving and reorganising the entire article to cut the size down. Don't mess with stuff like the references, etc or you'll throw me off. Only correct spelling/grammar/etc. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 01:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I've removed the {{toolong}} tag. I have reduced the article to almost half the length. Any more and it may degrade in quality. If anyone wants to comment on the result of my reworking of the article then please say so here. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 21:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles in other languages

OK, I've created two articles in Classical Chinese and Cantonese. So far, someone has expanded the Classical Chinese one to a good degree. I'll mess around with that if i feel like it (since my Classical Chinese is rather novice level). I'll probably expand the Cantonese one since I am Cantonese myself. I'm relectant to do anything with the Mandarin one as it will require a major rewrite to get it to any standard near the English one (it mostly consists of lists of books and a general introduction). I won't bother with the other languages that I don't know; any new articles in new languages will be linked to each other and the Commons article so they all connect to each other. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

My someone has been busy...

I'll move some external links to here to chop it down. Most of them are useful, but in order to comply...

Qin society sites

General Qin sites

Sites dealing with qin notation and tablature

Other specialist Qin sites

Sites with a little information on Qin

[edit] News articles/blog entries

--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 10:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


Additional:

  • Stephen Dydo's Site Has pictures of Stephen's qin construction as well as information of his other past-times besides qin

Other specialist Qin sites

  • Chinese Instruments Has a long section on the qin, mostly pictures and descriptions of qins throughout the ages and its history
  • Wang Fei's Webpage A site about Wang Fei and her projects, with links to other interconnected sites

Sites with music samples and/or videos

[edit] News articles/blog entries

--Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 11:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guqin project template

I've removed it form all guqin articles as I've decided to hang my wiki brush. I feel it is more or less complete. I will leave the article in the capable hands of Mr. Bagagnani and all those concerned. I will, of course, monitor the article and stop vandalism, etc. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 16:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renovation of article

Right, I have personally been receiving a lot of stick recently from the qin community about referencing and copyrighting in the article and have frankly had enough of it. I will now do the dubious process of hacking the article and removing anything I deem to be vaguely 'not publicly known' or 'not my own' etc. Please do not revert and if you want to put certain information back in, you should discuss it here first.

For sake of reference, the original version is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guqin&oldid=137294814

--Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 17:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The naysayers are not always correct, you know. There is always criticism for criticism's sake. What are they objecting to? Badagnani 19:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • They think I have been using certain 'information' they deem as copyrighted (i.e. their's) without asking permission or properly referencing them! They come from those 'at the top' (alledgely, because complaints seem to be through a third party instead of directly at me which they say they do but these 'complaints' never seem to materialise into my inbox. And none of the alledged seem to point me to where the problem is, leaving me to guess at what and where on earth the problem is...). Seriously, I'm too tired (literally) of the intrigues involved and have hung my brush up for the qin articles (except to correct errors/vandalism). The 'choice' they seem to be giving me is to completely re-write the article, fill up the article with their names with 'courtesy of this and that' to the point of shamelessness, or remove all/most of the info which 'seem' (not 'they deem' as they haven't told me which bits are their's) to be 'their's'. In other words, I'm screwed either way. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 23:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
As wikipedia is based on published information, there shouldn't be sources such as personal communications in the articles anyway, as long as the sources of the information are shown, with footnotes for specific points if required, and the article does not quote word for word, I can't really see what's the problem. You don't have to provide a source for every single piece of information individually, a list of references together with footnotes at the end of the article will be OK. After all this is standard academic practice, just follow academic convention, you do not need any "courtesy of this and that" in the main body of the article. LDHan 00:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe part of the reason out of 1.4 billion people, only a couple of thousand at most know how to play this instrument is due to this possessiveness of information. This sort of behavior regarding esoteric subjects can be found in cultures all over the world. Badagnani 01:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
If they do not want to share this information (properly credited of course) then they should not publish it. LDHan 01:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

You see the dilemma I'm in. Believe you me, I have had indirect 'threats' of being 'excommunicated' from the so-called 'qin community'! It's all a bit silly as far as I see it. Of course, if any of you wants to see the e-mails of said complaints, then I can e-mail them to you. Then you'll see what I'm up against. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 18:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop culture list

If anyone can retrieve the list of qin in pop culture then please do and insert it into the main article. The guys that deleted the pop culture article didn't transfer the list back onto the main article wasting all that effort! --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 10:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I've moved it to here for archive:
  • In the 1967 Louis Cha novel The Smiling, Proud Wanderer, the guqin was featured prominently in the story, as the hero of the novel Linghu Chong inherits a manuscript Xiao Ao Jiang Hu (which happens to also be the title of the novel) from Liu Zhengfeng and Qu Yang which was a masterpiece that features a duet between the guqin and the xiao (a Chinese flute).
  • In the 1987 Hong Kong fantasy horror film, A Chinese Ghost Story, the ghost, Nie, plays a qin and she breaks a string (a common metaphor for a troubled heart or being surprised) when the man Ning steps into the pavillion.
  • In the 1996 historical drama The Emperor's Shadow, Gao Jianli, a famous qin maker and performer uses his music to gain favour with the Emperor's daughter.
  • In the Hong Kong fantasy serial adaptation of Fengshen Bang, the character Bi Gan plays a (historically inaccurate) qin. Another character (the Queen of the last Shang emperor Di Xin) actually grabs it and smashes it on a table. Qins are also used in scenes in a teaching academy.
  • In the Hong Kong animated series adaptation of The Return of the Condor Heroes, the character Xiaolongnü plays a qin when Yang Guo first sees her. She also plays the qin again in the second season.
  • In the 2002 Zhang Yimou film Hero, Xu Kuanghua plays an ancient version of the qin in the courtyard scene in which Hero and Long Sky play go. He in fact mimes it to the music composed which is actually played by Liu Li, formerly a professor at the Central Conservatory of Music in Beijing. It is suggested that Xu made the qin himself.
  • In the 2004 film Kung Fu Hustle, the main weapon of the Killers', a couple with the title of Greatest Assassins in Circulation, was a pseudo guqin- guzheng hybrid instrument (body structure of a qin, bridges and sound of a zheng). It has the unique ability to form swords, fists, and even undead warriors once certain notes are played.

--Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 11:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

added tone to the IPA. Of course, the diacritics don't match Pinyin. kwami (talk) 09:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lessen the amount of Chinese

On reading the article, I'm struck by the large amount of Chinese (and some Japanese and Korean) characters that pop up everywhere. I'm not talking about the spellings for guqin, or for other terms specificially related to the instruments, but about the Chinese names for all of the people, works, and other miscellaneous words. Effort should be given to trim any excess Chinese out of the article, as it clutters the article for the average English reader. Basically, any Asian characters that follow a blue link are unneeded, as anyone who wishes to know the spelling in the original language can find it its main article. Characters after red links and normal text generally are ok to stay until a stub can be created. On that note, perhaps someone with the know-how could create stubs for the "famous gin pieces" to establish their notability. I'm going to go ahead and start removing some of these unneeded characters.--SeizureDog (talk) 19:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

  • I've kept most of the important ones in there. the reason for the Chinese is because it will aid in correct and easier research in future. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 13:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reading list

I'm moving most of the reading list here for archive:

  • Zhou, Ningyun (1915). Qinshu Cunmu 【琴書存目】.
  • Li, Xiangting (1992). Tangdai Guqin Yanzou Meixue ji Yinyue Sixiang Yanjiu 【唐代古琴演奏美學及音樂思想研究】. Taipei.
  • Li, Xiangting (2004). Guqin Shiyong Jiaocheng 【古琴实用教程】. Shanghai: Shanghai Music Press. ISBN 7-80667-439-X
  • Wu, Na (2004). Guqin Chuji Jiaocheng 【古琴初级教程】. Beijing: Tongxin Press. ISBN 7-80593-835-0/J‧105
  • Huang, Datong (ed.) (2005). Chiba Guqin Kao 【尺八古琴考】. Shanghai: Shanghai Conservatory of Music Press. ISBN 7-80692-168-0/J‧161
  • Yao, Bingyan and Huang, Shuzhi (2005). Tangdai Chen Zhuo Lun Guqin Zhifa: Yao Bingyan Qinxue Zhu Shu zhi Yi 【唐代陳拙論古琴指法‧姚丙炎琴學著述之一】. Beijing: Shu zhi Zhai Wenhua Co. Ltd. ISBN 988-98739-1-5.
Part of the Qinxue Congkan 【琴學叢刊】 ("collection of printings on qin study").
  • Yi, Cunguo (2005). Taiyin Xisheng 【太音希聲】. Guizhou: Zhejiang University Press. ISBN 7-308-04261-8/J‧093
  • Wu, Zhao (2005). Jueshi Qingyin 【绝世清音】; inc. 1 CD. Suzhou: Ancient Inn of Wu Press. ISBN 7-80574-908-6/G‧259
  • Miao, Jianhua (2006). Guqin Meixue Sixiang Yanjiu 【古琴美学思想研究】. Shanghai: Shanghai Conservatory of Music Press. ISBN 7-80692-224-5
Part of the Series of Doctor Dissertations in Music 【音乐博士学位论文系列】.
  • Xian, Zhi (2006). Qi-xian Midao: Jingdian Guqin Gushi 【七弦味味道‧经典古琴故事】. Beijing: China Three Gorges Press. ISBN 7-80223-171-X
  • Xu, Junyue and Xiaoying (2006). Zhepai Guqin Yishu 【浙派古琴艺朮】. Shanghai: Shanghai Arts and Literature Press. ISBN 7-5321-3030-4
  • Liang, David Ming-Yueh (1972). The Chinese Ch'in Its History and Music. Chinese National Music Association / San Francisco Conservatory of Music
  • Hsu, Wen-Ying (1978). The Ku'Chin. California: Wen Ying Studio, Pasadena

German books on qin:

  • Manfred Dahmer: “Qin - die klassische chinesische Griffbrettzither". With Audio-CD. Uelzen: ML-Verlag

Music books:

  • Sachs, Curth (1940). The History of Musical Instruments. New York: Norton & Co.
  • Lai, T. C. & Mok, Robert (1985). Jade Flute - the Story of Chinese Music. New York: Schocken Books. ISBN 0-8052-3961-8
  • Liang, David Ming-Yue (1985). Music of the Billion. New York: Heinrichshofen. ISBN 3-7959-0474-9
  • Herbet, Trevor (2001). Music in Words: A Guide to Researching and Writing about Music. London: The Associated Board of Royal Schools of Music. ISBN 1-86096-236-X
  • Wang, Yunwu (1969). Wang Yunwu Da Cidian 【王雲五大辭典】. Hong Kong: Guanghua Book Department.
  • No author (1976, 1982). (Putonghua : Yueyin) Zhonghua Xin Zidian 【（普通話‧粵音）中華新字典】. Hong Kong: Chinese Book Department, Hong Kong Section. ISBN 962-231-001-X
  • Addiss, Stephen (1987). Tall Mountains and Flowing Waters. Hawaii: University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 0-8248-1039-2
  • Yang, Xin; Barnhart, Richard M.; Nie, Chongzheng; Cahill, James; Lang, Shaojun and Wu, Hung (1997). Three Thousand Years of Chinese Painting. New Haven & London, Beijing: Yale University Press and Foreign Language Press. ISBN 0-300-09447-7
  • Liang, Jianmin (ed.) et al. (2000). Gu Hanyu Dacidian 【古汉语大词典】. Shanghai: Shanghai Cishu Press. ISBN 7-5326-0571-X

—Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieHuang (talk • contribs) 11:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Issue of non-Roman transliterations that clutter the text

This has come up at MOS talk, and I'm using the lead of this article as an extreme example of such cluttering. The solution that I'm proposing is the sequestering of the transliterations in a Glossary at the bottom of the article. The concern, BTW, is not with the infobox or the references. Tony (talk) 08:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Demotion of article

Well, it was expected since I resigned from making major contributions to it a few months back after the hoo-hars. Unfortunately, none of my colleagues are willing to take the helm or have experience in Wiki to do the nessary work to it so I'm afraid it will go into decline unless I receive a full mandate from my peers to assume editorship of it. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 13:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. What do you think of the idea of footnotes to replace the inline bracketed Chinese text in the lead? Or a dedicated glossary towards the bottom? Tony (talk) 14:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I've found that other Chinese articles still use Chinese in brackets. But I suppose that is acceptable (not that it will do much in terms of bringing it back up to quality). --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 08:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)