Talk:Guardian angel

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[edit] Guardian spirit

"Guardian spirit" redirects to this article, but this article barely even mentions protective spirits in cultures outside of Judeo-Christian ones. Is "guardian angel" really the place to put every culture's conceptions of guardian spirits? If anything, wouldn't it be the other way around (although "guardian angel" gets more Google hits than "guardian spirits", obviously). -Silence 02:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

"Guardian spirit" probably redirects here because there is no article on guardian spirits in general. Perhaps the redirect should go to "spirit guide." Your call. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 14:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Silence is referring, I think, to how fully developed the thought is outside of the west and how eastern philosophies have also come to something like a g.a. I.e. there should be an article on the guardian spirit that includes everything from animism to ancestor worship to daemons to the Islamic protector. However, the Guardian angel article should confine itself to what's in Christian thought and how it got there (e.g. by discussing the Islamic tradition and its influence around 1309). Geogre 15:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guardian angel prayer

I put back the guardian angel prayer, including an explanation. It is a widely-know and oft-used prayer, especially for Christian children. There is also a Wikilink to it from List of Prayers, so if it is determined by consensus that the prayer should be removed, please redirect that link. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 14:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The guardian angel prayer here looks very suitable. In the future, I hope to add information about Orthodox prayers to guardian angels; in particular, the prayers seek protection from both physical and spiritual harm, and help in avoiding temptations to sin. (And generally, they are usually a brief part of a much longer prayer that is chiefly addressed to God, but may include short parts addressed to Mary, one's guardian angel, or other saints.) I don't know enough to know if these are distinctive features or common to all Christians. Wesley 16:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Is the prayer you're talking about in the List of prayers? Does it have its own article? If not, you may want to consider adding it. It sounds pretty complex, maybe too much so for this article. It may be better to put it on its own page (the full prayer, not just the angel part), and link to it from here. Just an idea. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 16:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Folks, we really need a source for that prayer. If it's common, it should be attested somewhere besides ourselves. There is much more to do in this article, and I've set it aside for quite a while. However, there is much more to the theology and, in particular, the counterpositioning of Arabic/Islamic thought. Most of the schema of angels employed by Western literature comes from Islamic sources (in Paradise Lost, for example), and all the alchemists were drawing from those sources. Consequently, there is a much more developed guardian angel theology in Islam. Although this article is about the Christian guardian angel, a fair amount has bled into the west from Islam. Geogre 15:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a citation for the assertion that Orthodox Christian angelology is from Islam? Pseudo-Dionysus wrote before this era. CRCulver 00:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that Greek Orthodox angelology was from Islam. The doctrine of the guardian angel is well developed in the Greek fathers. However, the exact positioning (seraphim/cherubim vs. orders), along with the names, etc. are all developed in Islam, so the contemporary mystery with angels is really derived from Christianity + Arabic belief + Islam + Christianity, with the Greek church following the same lines until the schism and then getting a different direction. I still say that prayer's got to go, though, unless someone has a citation for it. It's been a month, and the thing is still sitting there without citation. Geogre 02:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison to greek philosophy

The text says the following: "The belief that God sends a spirit to watch every individual was common in Ancient Greek philosophy, and Plato alludes to it in Phaedo". The greeks were polytheists, which god does the text refer to? Furthermore should a reference be added here. -ramz- 19:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• "The Greeks" were polytheists, but Platonists weren't. The reference is to the work in question. At any rate, Plato's "guardian angels" are angelos, sort of. Remember that the Platonic view is that the ideal is outside of motion, and a demiurge is necessary for creation, but the demiurge isn't going to go below the empyrean. Therefore, there are messengers and spirits flowing between the empyrean and the sublunary world. That's the guardian angel of the Platonic world view, and it's very important for Plato's system. Geogre 11:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
• I'm pretty sure the Zoroastrians had a concept like guardian angels, see Avesta.org and Fravashi, but I see no mention of this in the article. That's a bit perplexing as I've usually heard the theory that Christians got the notion from Zoroastrians not Platonists.--T. Anthony 10:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saints banner

The above banner was placed on this article as there is a liturgical feast day for the Guardian angels, as indicated in the article, and we in that project are working to improve all articles relating to individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical feasts. The inclusion of the banner gives us in the project an idea of the current status of the article. We will upon completion of tagging work harder on the importance assessment, which will give the members of the project a chance to concentrate their efforts where it is most needed. That will happen sometime later, though. I can't say when, as I'm still in the process of tagging. In any event, I hope that these statements are sufficient to justify the banner not being removed by someone else later. John Carter 15:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Occult?

No problem, of course, but aren't angels, by the nature of their being angelos, not hidden and therefore not occult? Like I said, it's all fine with me, but it does seem...odd. Geogre 12:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Angels are a central part of the Western occult tradition, particularly in the Kabbalah and systems of ceremonial magic based upon it. Guardian angels are also a significant part of occultism/magick based directly on Judeo-Christian practice. Another example would be Enochian, which is specifically considered a form of the angelic language. Hope that helps clarify. Cheers! Vassyana 22:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page name

This article should be named Guardian angel. This is clearly the primary meaning (even the generic Guardian angel page redirects here). So, per WP:DAB, this article's name should be without the disambiguation (spirit) . -- P199 (talk) 14:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)