Talk:Gruyère (cheese)

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[edit] Not French

Gruyère chees is NO WAY french. It's a swiss cheese, produced only in some parts of the country (controllated origin provenance).. like Champagne or Bordeaux wine.

The french definition on Wikipedia is better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.178.16.136 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 26 October 2005.

Did you read the linked article on the subject? [1] It's pretty well written, and seems to confirm there's a controversy, or at least that there was in 1996. PS. Please sign talk page messages by typing four tildes. (~~~~) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] There is no controversy

Hi.

Thank you for the linked article, it's interesting but not up to date and not completely true.. I can garantee that Gruyère cheese can be only swiss and not french at all. I live in a town about 20 km from Gruyères city. As I wrote before, Gruyère cheese is protected by an AOC (Appellation d'origine contrôlée, in french) since july 2001. You can read the complete history of Gruyere cheese on the official website : www.gruyere.com (select english on the right upper corner). So, .. no controversy ! (128.178.16.136 12:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC))Marc

Hi Marc,

I think you are correct, that the 1996 info I was relying on is now out of date. Any help you could provide regarding an authoritative source showing that Gruyère got either EU or French AOC (Or explaining why a Swiss-issued AOC would be binding on France) in 2001 would be much appreciated. (I didn't find that in the English portion of www.gruyere.com; it's possible I missed it.) In the meantime, I'll change the article to indicate your information. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello ! Thank you for the modifications you made. Here in Switzerland, saying that Gruyère is french is like saying in Napoli that pizza was invented in New York.. you could be easely killed for that ;-) There is still something not correct in the main article. Gruyère cheese in not ony made in the jura moutain range, but in "the canton of Fribourg, Vaud, Neuch√¢tel and Jura as well as the district of Courtelary, La Neuveville, and Moutier in the canton of Berne" (réf : www.gruyere.com). Gruyères city is aslo not located in the jura mountains, but in the "Prealpes fribougeoises". I'm not an expert in AOC stuff, but normally an AOC should be international in any case. Champagne wines are protected by an AOC as well and it's not possible to produce "Champagne" elsewhere than in the AOC region of Champagne, in France. By the way, in Switzerland there is a small village called "Champagne" where there is some winemakers (only white, no sparkling). There has been a big fight between them and french Champagne producers because they put "Champagne" on the labels of the bottle.... The affair is still on lawyers hands and will continue for some years, I bet. The website www.gruyere.com is very well documented, may be you should have a look one more time. Have a look at the websites proposed in the Links as well. And if you need more informations, don't hesitate to ask me. My grand father is a cheese maker (gruyere AOC and Vacherin in particular), so I'm sure I can be usefull for you ! (128.178.16.136 15:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC))Marc

I've had very poor luck trying to research the actual law regarding any sort of AOC labelling. While it is commonly believed, for instance, that French AOC labels are somehow binding worldwide, the actual facts are nowhere near that simple; I imagine the restrictions come down to the enforcements of hundreds of different trade negotiation results in the end. Similarly, the EU's Protected Designation of Origin label is obviously binding in the EU, but outside Europe, the situation is unclear. (Not that Switzerland is in the EU, right?) In this case, I have yet to come across anything that assures me that a Swiss AOC is really worth more than the paper it is printed on. I found one site that seemed to believe that Swiss Gruyere was probably going to get French AOC status in 2006, which would secure its status a little more, perhaps. Simply relying on the marketing site for Swiss Gruyere AOC might not be entirely reliable here.
As for the locations where Gruyere is made within Switzerland, feel free and change the article yourself - I'm sure that at least is uncontroversial enough.


Switzerland is not a member of EU, however french Champagne producers attacked sChampagne-village swiss winemakers .. That prooves that an AOC is international. That's logical and makes sense : if it was only "european-granted", other countries would have "faked" these kind of products for a long time ! (128.178.16.136 13:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)) Marc

This is a very special case; when Switzerland and the EU were negociating bilateral treaties, France insisted that the problem of Champagne should be included. So Switzerland explicitely agreed with the protection of the term Champagne in order to get the bilateral treaties passed. It is quite silly in my opinion and I pity the winemakers of Champagne (Swiss), but it does not really prove anything for Gruyere. Schutz 15:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

As far as I understand, an AOC is not supposed to be a trademark or some international law about the use of a specific name or denomination, but rather a label or a certification of controlled origin and quality. There is no law saying that any AOC is binding outside the issuing country, unless there are specific international agreements (like in the EU or between Switzerland and France for the Champagne case). I'm not sure if there is any agreement like this for Gruyère.

So basically still anybody in the world can call his cheese Gruyère, but he will never get the Swiss Gruyère AOC label if his cheese is not produced to their rules (see their rules in German or in French). People can either buy anything that has the word Gruyère on it and believe it is good (it might not even be cheese though), or look for the AOC label saying Le Gruyère Switzerland® AOC which guarantees controlled origin and quality (see the label here). The label and the brand Le Gruyère Switzerland actually are registered trademarks (more info here), so they should not be faked.

As a result, there is still a difference between the controlled and certified Swiss Gruyère cheese, and the use of the term Gruyère for a family of cheeses (which might or might not be similar to the Swiss Gruyère). This fact should be mentionned in the article, but I suggest that the article should be about the Swiss Gruyère, as the term Gruyère alone generally refers to the Swiss cheese, otherwise you would rather use it together with the exact designation of the cheese (like Gruyère de Comté in France). Personally I would prefer if Gruyère would only refer to the Swiss cheese, as well as the term Swiss cheese should be banned for any cheese in the U.S. and Canada that isn't actually made in Switzerland. But this will be difficult to realise :-) Luzian 09:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I just found a recent news message on Switzeraland's Europe Integration Office website, saying that this subject (mutual acknowledgement of AOC labels) is going to be discussed between Switzeraland and the EU in 2006 and that Gruyère and Emmental cheese are going to be part of the difficult points... so nothing at all is decided yet, this is probably going to take a long time! (News message only avaliable in German and French). Luzian 10:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] News...

That's right. What I said previously was not completely correct. I talk with the CEO of a big swiss cheese factory (mainly Gruyère AOC and Raclette) and he's very well aware of the topic. He said that we can actually find "Gruyère cheese" made in USA (of course not Gruyère AOC) or some cheese with the stamp "Gruyere like traditional method" and the swiss flag on it. It is still legal but Switzerland is actually trying to do something against these things. As Luzian said, there will be more pressure in 2006 from the swiss government to get a better protection of the Gruyere AOC (as well as Emmental). Note that the"Vacherin Fribourgeois" is actually trying to get his own AOC too. Raclette will be an other topic : France (Haute-Savoie state) says that Raclette comes from them. (128.178.16.136 15:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC))Marc.

[edit] Caves

The last Gruyere I had was aged in a cave. It smelled like a French guy's boots, which have a distinct smell and flavour, so it must be somewhat French. 24.147.141.127 06:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tasty Cheese

Can someone write a small section on the reason that Tasty Cheese redirects here? I always thought tasty cheese was what Australians called sharp cheddar. As it stands, I can't tell if tasty cheese redirects here because it's the same thing but has to be sold under a different name if it's not made in Switzerland, because that's what it's called elsewhere, or because someone thinks that Gruyère is tasty. Lomaprieta 09:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Some anon did it, presumably because they thought Gruyère is tasty. I've re-redirected it to Cheddar cheese, which mentions the fact that it's called Tasty Cheese in Australia. —Angr 11:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)