Talk:Grove City College

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Contents

[edit] Republicans?

While I imagine the quotation "most students and professors are registered Republicans" is true, it can't really be verified. We should probably remove that.

[edit] Needs updates/More Information

I'd be interested in taking up the task of Grove City College. I.E. Getting more info like President, History... (Making it compete with Carnegie Mellon's nice entry). Grove City has a lot of history that could be written about. Anyone have an comments and suggestions? I know that the WikiProject Universities is being debated. Should I start now?

[edit] Logo

I thought that the GCC logo was changed to a maroon shield with three white wavy lines a few years ago. The logo displayed in the article is the old one. Am I wrong about this?

208.58.7.8 (talk) bored 208.58.7.8 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


--Emplynx 00:46, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, go for it. I would suggest modeling the new page after a previously established college's page, but you seem to already have that idea. Consult college review sources such as Princeton Review for statistics about the College; as a student there you should also have access to more detailed information that outsiders may not. Don't ever hesitate to add relative information to Wikipedia. Enlighten us! --BDD 02:05, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I really don't know what you are talking about, but I worked a little bit on the definition. I think im going to work on it some more later this month, cuz it really is tiny. --Alphachimp 12:25, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

==Whitewashed?== Are we not beyond that era? Are not all men are created equal in the eyes of God.

I don't mean to offend anyone when I say that I've heard of some questionable events from GCC's past, namely racist policies. I admit I don't know much about the specifics of these events, but I understand they were significant, and indeed came to this page hoping to read something about them. I believe that either (a) this page is whitewashed, written with a biased POV; or (b) any stories I have heard have been greatly exaggerated. Can anyone comment on this? --BDD 02:03, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Geez, I've been here 3 years, have checked out every piece of gossip I could (like the Dean getting fired for drunken misconduct, tunnels under the quad, students having secret abortions), and I've never heard of old racist policies. So if the page is missing some real info, it's not a whitewash - I'll post anything I can find and source. --Nick Douglas 20:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


Nothing personal but your 3 years of research were wasted. Firings of employees is private lest lawsuits result however if you think you have angels for professors and administrators you're in a dream world. The "tunnels under the quad" are mine shafts and they do exist all over the campus. These became quite evident when the new rec center was built and tons upon tons of cement had to be pumped into the ground to fill a portion so the center would not sink. One good earthquake and much of the campus could sink. The tunnel entrances are sealed but one only has to look at the water from the campus entering Wolf Creek on Pine Street even in a drought to see iron laden tunnel water draining. However, don't take my word for it, maps of these shafts exist.

As far as racism, one only needs to research academic records. Not as prevalent these days, the numbers are still not equal to the population.

[edit] Ivy League rumor?

If we can't substantiate it, we ought to delete it -- WP is not a rumor mill. 18.187.0.44 19:43, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and I'm removing it until we can figure out if it's true or not. --Nothlit 20:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grove City College - Diversity

I actually publish a guidebook on Grove City College, and here is a quote from an actual student there ...

"This College teaches European culture to the descendants of those Europeans. There are very few people of color here, and it is a serious problem. When I interviewed at the college, I asked my interviewer why there seemed to be so few non-white people here. He gave me a rather flimsy answer about how the college is working on that, and, I have to say, I don’t think that the college has made an effort to reach out to students of color. This creates a campus where diversity is gauged by what church denomination you belong to, instead of an actual diversity of people and views. This, in turn, insulates people from what they will encounter in the real world, and is one of the defining characteristics of the Grove City bubble."

from Grove City College - Off The Record

The school recently hired a Chinese professor, granted it was to head a program in the Chinese language, but still, I think it is a step in the right direction. Also, I think the problem is not the schools policies towards non-white applicants, it is their affirmative action policy. The school does not lower the standards for black applicants like other schools do, simply to conform to some standard of "diversity". The Federal government can't do a thing about it since the school refuses to accept any Federal aid. This of course creates the situation you observe --- only blacks who are committed christians who also meet the high SAT/ACT scores PLUS high GPA's get to enter. With such a policy, you should expect very few black applicants and this is reflected by the low black population on campus. I believe the same description applies to most Latino students. I hasten to add that this is not because there aren't enough Blacks/Latinos who meet these criteria, but most who do would tend to congregate towards the larger colleges as well as towards universities that have larger black populations like Howard University and Xavier University in Ohio, Louisiana and Illioniois and this is borne out by the stats.

The non-acceptance of Federal aid alone is a detrmiment to minorities (who are statistically lower in income than the rest of the populace) applying.

What about Asians ? Admittedly, Asian kids on average have high test scores and have on average, higher incomes than whites, but most are able to go to more well known colleges anyway. Besides, most Asian parents want their kids to go to the more well known Ivy's, so Grove is not going to be their first choice regardless of how great the education is. Smart Jewish students ? Are you kidding ? surely you don't expect a Jew to come to a Christian college do you ?

Finally, there is the issue of -- Christianity. Let's face it, a lot of non-whites ( e.g. Asians, Jews, Middle Easterners) are not Christians. Why would they want to go to a school that is Christian and explicitly states that it teaches Christian values ?

So, in effect, people who will apply to Grove City and look at their brochure must be a "fit" for the school. It has little to do with race but the "practical effect" will be to filter out diversity as defined by most colleges in the USA. The best fit would be a student (regardless of race) who : 1) Is a committed Christian and/or someone who does not mind being exposed to Christian values; 2) Has relatively high GPA's and Test Scores; 3) Who refuses to accept Federal aid. The school in fact "screens" applicants for this in their interview.

Unfortunately, the above 3 are the school's non-negotiables. Therefore, one has to conclude that diversity (as defined by percentage of non-white students) will only be achieved if non-white students meet the above criteria. It's a tall order indeed. The problem is if you eliminate the non-negotiables, you also eliminate the thing that makes Grove City stand out --- independence -- Faith and Freedom.

So, Grove City College faces the onerous decision of being like one of the other 3,000 colleges in the USA, or being independent and unique. They have at this point in time, chosen to be the later and thus, what you see in terms of their enrollment is the EFFECT of this decision.

Are there Black, Hispanic, Asian and foreign students on campus ? Of course. But these students apply PRECISELY BECAUSE they are a good intellectual/moral/spiritual/academic fit REGARDLESS of their race. However, these seem to be the minority among their racial groups.

Hence, Racial Diversity at Grove will be achieved INSPITE of their policies, not because of it. But not by much.

Now regarding Grove City College not doing enough to encourage racial minorities to apply.... here's the question --- what do you suggest they do to try harder ? I hope no one is suggesting they compromise the 3 things enumerated above that make Grove City stand out ! Any suggestions would be helpful.

Let me put in my 2 cents worth about this obssession with "diversity".

If you think Grove City College is not diverse enough, you should look at the so called "intellectual diversity" they allegedly have on other campuses and ask yourself if Grove's lack of diversity isn't mirrored in other campuses around the country.

Here's an editorial by the Washington Times, 04/11/04 that should be an eye opener:

"For all the agony and lawsuits about diversity among student enrollments, there has been a shameful silence about the lack of intellectual diversity within college faculties. Consider a 2001 Frank Luntz Research/Center for the Study of Popular Culture (CSPC) survey of Ivy League professors, which found that 0 percent identified themselves as conservative. At Harvard, Democratic professors outnumbered Republican professors in economics, political science and sociology departments by 50-2, according to a 2001 American Enterprise Institute survey. At Stanford, it was 151-17; at Davidson College in North Carolina, 10-1. This lack of diversity has real consequences on quality education, academic discourse and academic freedom itself.

A course description at the University of California Berkeley (100 Democrats, 9 Republicans, according to a CSPC study) stated that "conservative thinkers are encouraged to seek other sections." When a student at a Colorado school wrote an essay on why Saddam Hussein was a war criminal, instead of why George W. Bush was, as her professor asked, she received a failing grade. Of course, most students would simply accept the status quo in fear of the opprobrium they could face. After all, when the chairman of Duke's philosophy department says that his university (95 Democrats, 15 Republicans) doesn't hire more conservative professors because, "as John Stuart Mill said, stupid people are generally conservative," why shouldn't a student stay quiet?

Which is why we are more than encouraged to hear that the Academic Bill of Rights (ABR) campaign is gaining serious momentum on campuses all across the country. Last year, conservative activist David Horowitz founded Students for Academic Freedom (SAF) and launched his campaign aimed at the ambitious goal of eradicating political abuse on college campuses. To this end, he drafted the Academic Bill of Rights that codifies principles of academic freedom by emphasizing the value of "intellectual diversity" and "the rights of students to not be indoctrinated or otherwise assaulted by political propagandists in the classroom or any educational setting." Rather than fairly debate the issue, many university administrators and faculties attacked the ABR as an attempt to impose hiring quotas for conservative professors. But quotas play no role in Mr. Horowitz's original draft, nor in the subsequent variations drafted by student senates and state and federal lawmakers. In fact, the ABR states that faculty hiring practices must in no way be based on political affiliation."

So, if Grove City College isn't "diverse" and teaches a "one-sided" point of view, what does the above survey tell us ? Would it be better for you to be a student in a college that teaches another "one-sided" point of view ?

I can hear the response now, why not hire all sorts of faculty members who have VARIED points of view ? To which I say --- easier said than done. This desire assumes that a college does not have a foundational philosophy underlying its system. The difference between Grove City College and most other colleges is this --- Grove City College tells you BEFORE HAND what they expect to teach before you enroll. You are given ample information to make your decision before hand. A cursory look at their website already tells you what their educational philosophy is. There is no false advertisement. You get what you see.

As for other universities, yes -- they harp on about being diverse, about how they value and tolerate differing opinion, etc. But if you look at what they do IN PRACTICE, the reality outstrips the hype by a thousand miles. For many kids and parents, You often DO NOT GET what you think you expect. SeekFind 14:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More traditions

The entry needs some info on the traditional "creeking" of recently engaged male students. There may be other traditions worth noting. --Nick Douglas 16:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] (Lack of) Gay Rights

GCC is also becoming central to the ex-gay movement, with Warren Throckmorton's prominence. There should be mention of a) his role b) the school's policies (which shifted from outlawing homosexuality to homosexual activity) and c) LGBT students at the school.

Quite frankly, I don't feel that it bears that much significance to the school article. The homosexuality policy does not appear to be a major issue. Perhaps it would be valuable to create an article about Throckmorton? --Alphachimp talk 04:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
A Wikipedia Article on Dr. Warren Throckmorton has been added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SeekFind (talk • contribs) 04:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Changes

I made two changes to the list of majors at Grove City College. Recently entrepeneurship was added to the list of offered majors. Also, the religion major at Grove City College is distinctly and purposefully not a religion major, since it only deals with Christian theology, history, etc. So I changed it to Christian Thought, which is the name used by GCC.

[edit] Marketing Management

Marketing management is a major offered by Grove City College, as referenced on the following page:

Business Department

Please discuss future changes on this page. Thanks.--Alphachimp 19:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. The change to the majors list was added with a lot of other nonsense by the same IP at the same time, so I chalked it up to vandalism. Sorry about that. --TangentIdea 01:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
No worries. Thanks for being conscientious. --Alphachimp talk 03:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School Policies Section

I just changed the order around a bit in the school policies section (it appears to be mostly about alcohol.) I think it's a little bit more logical. I also changed some of the grammar around that section. --Alphachimp talk 04:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about a printer?

I do not understand the entry about the kid that threw a printer out the window and got suspended. Are there any more details? Is this appropriate for the article? --Captain Flatulence 01:33, Dec 13, 2006 (UTC)

It's ongoing, so it'll be updated with new developments and eventually deleted if nothing significant comes of it. For the moment, it's sparked a 400-student-strong protest and is still gaining momentum. --72.23.224.17 06:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Uh, no, it won't. The fact that some students appear to have had a run in with a college's administration is not sufficiently notable to merit inclusion in said college's wikipedia article. Alphachimp 07:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Alphachimp. These kinds of "student uprisings" are far too common, not only at Grove City but at schools across the country. Unless it draws attention from a larger community (e.g., the UCLA Taser incident) then I don't see how it has any relevance on Wikipedia. Great fodder for the editorial page of The Collegian, maybe, but not here. --Nothlit 04:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The suggestion that student uprisings are "far too common...at Grove City" College is simply untrue.

--bored —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.58.5.169 (talk) 13:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Fraternity correction

I just wanted to let you guys know that I edited the fraternity section by deleting Omicron XI from the list of fraternities that have died out and took a block class. I'm new to using wikipedia so I'm not sure of the proper etiquette involved in changing something (whether or not I should have discussed it first) but I know first hand that that is not true. I would be very interested in where that information originally came from. The Okies are alive and well and have never taken a block class (and we will be celebrating our 60 year anniversary this year). Thanks and please feel free to contact me about any Omicron Xi or Grove City College related questions (bkovach@midsouth.rr.com). Bkovach 21:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cost

Not sure if it's worth making the change, but as of this year the cost is bumped up to $17,634, which depending on your perspective may or may not be "about $16000." Due to my own desire for round numbers, might it be better to say "less than $20000" which will be true for another few years (most likely) and still sort of sets it apart from many similar schools which are in the $30000 range? Again, it's not an important issue, but in my mind "about 16k" implies a much more precise figure than "about" a round number, such as 15k or 20k. Oh, and their FAQ has been updated to show that price, not sure if it needs to be cited or not.

Another nice thing about GCC is that the cost that they quote is for tuition, room, board, and most other expenses.  Most others are in the $30,000 range for tuition alone.  I think it needs changing.

[edit] Boettke

I'm not really sold on Peter Boettke being included under a notable alumni/professors section. Whether you like the guy or not, he's not really that note worthy. 213.37.192.62 (talk) 11:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed Boettke from the notable almuni list due to a lack of interest in the above comment. If anyone can justify his inclusion, please discuss here first. 213.37.192.62 21:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

He has a Wikipedia article which seems to establish his notability. There are 14 redlinked names on the list right now, most of which should probably go. Boettke is one (formerly) on the list who actually seems notable. Staecker 01:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


I don't know why you would think that Peter Boettke isn't a notable alumni. The man's achievements are quite impressive. Consider :

1) National Fellow at the Hoover Institution for War, Revolution and Peace at Stanford University

2) Visiting professor or scholar at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, the Max Planck Institute for Research into Economic Systems in Jena, Germany, the Stockholm School of Economics, Central European University in Prague and Charles University in Prague.

3) Author of several books on the history, collapse and transition from socialism in the former Soviet Union.

4) Editor of the Review of Austrian Economics. The Review of Austrian Economics was founded by late Murray Rothbard in mid-1980s to promote research and the further development of the Austrian School of Economics. Boetkke is in fact one of the more eminent professors affiliated with the Austrian School of Economics. He was in fact the former President of the Society for the Development of Austrian Economics.

5) Has won numerous teaching awards, including the Golden Dozen Award for Excellence in Teaching from the College of Arts and Sciences at New York University.

In light of these, I would seriously reconsider putting him back among Grove City College's noted alumni —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spirikitik (talk • contribs) 19:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I have reincluded Boettke, although I think two points should maybe be made. First, just because he is more notable than some others on the list does not justify his inclusion, it could be that the others should also not be included. Second, the notable persons at other universities are pretty dignified (ie: nobel prize winners, US presidents, etc). I hope that we are not watering down the distinction of being 'notable' by including people who are maybe less so than others. I will also put Boettke as editor of the RAE, as this makes him marginally more notable than just another prof. 213.37.192.62 20:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Center For Vision and Values

A new Wikipedia Article has been added for Grove City College's Center for Vision and Values. You are all invited to add to/modify it to make it more informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spirikitik (talk • contribs)