Talk:Großes Messer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Persistent insertion of a commercial link by Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg

(Moved from WP:AN/I)

On the Grosses messer page, WP contributor Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg persists in adding an external link (Example of a traditional grosses messer) that feeds into an online catalogue page, complete with ordering instructions and prices, maintained by a maker and vendor of reproduction swords. His reason? Because, he says, "...in a search for a picture of the weapon. I was unsure about the legal status of the photo so I added the whole link." When warned (on my talk page) that adding blatant commmercial links to a WP article appears to violate WP:EL policy #4, he replied, "it was the only picture of the weapon available and thus gives an adaquate reason not to follow it." He further insists he has no commercial or other interest in such a link but is justified in inserting it, "since a picture of the weapon would be helpful to the article." To prevent further acts of what might be considered vandalism, i.e., willful violations of WP:EL policies, and after encountering three reinsertions of the commercial link by Al-Silverburg on December 13th, it seems the matter should be referred to cooler heads at the WP Administrator level. Could a decision be made whether persistent insertions of purely commercial links are considered vandalism, or whether such links are justified because a contributor believes they would "be helpful to the article" and he says "it was the only picture of the weapon available"? Thanks, Jack Bethune 04:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

In general, I would agree with you, Jack: commercial links should be avoided. However, that is a pretty nice picture on that other site, which unfortunately we can't simply take and move over here. WP:EL says commercial links should be generally avoided, but this might be one of the acceptable exceptions to the rule. Moshe, please weigh in: are you at all associated with that web site? JDoorjam Talk 04:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
As I have already told Jack I had never even heard of the site until I googled "Grosses Messer" looking for a picture, since I was unsure of the legal status of it I decided just to add the entire link. I will also mention that I did not appreciate how Jack began our interaction by immediately accusing me of link spamming which was not only a violation of good faith but was also completly unwarranted. I also attempted to explain my position by stating that guidelines may at times be ignored if their is good reason which in this case there was. I will admit that my reaction has not been appropriate at every turn but I feel it was almost justified considering such incivility on such a mundane detail.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
You should probably both apologize to one another for letting this get heated and not making use of the grosses messer talk page, where other passers by might have opinions on the value of the link. I mean, come on, guys. This is an argument over whether to include a relatively non-controversial external link at the bottom of a start-class article. This should not have reached the point where admin intervention was requested, with both of you an edit away from a WP:3RR violation.
It's my opinion that the link adds value to the article by showing still images of the grosses messer which, so far, we do not have a free-use image of. I think the value of the link outweighs the guideline suggesting the avoidance of commercial links. Without getting into an edit war, and letting any previous comments made in haste be forgotten, let's talk about the value of this link. Jack, do you think that the link adds value, setting aside momentarily the general guideline against commercial links? If not, why not? JDoorjam Talk 06:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
We can all agree that an image adds significant benefit to an otherwise unillustrated article. In addition, we can certainly all agree that commercial links should be avoided, per WP policy, unless (a) the image adds a significant benefit to the article, and (b) there are no other illustrations available. While there is no dispute about (a), or apparent benefits, the real question seems to be (b), i.e, whether there are no other illustrations available. For this topic, that clearly does not seem to be the case. Images of the Medieval weapon known as the grosses Messer are not common, but they do exist in period illustrations from Albrecht Dürer's Fechtbuch, which is available online here [1] and, in detail, here [2]. Another online source illustrates this weapon in combat here [3]. These Medieval-period illustrations now being offered on other websites are probably in the public domain, and any one of them would be preferable to the commercial links in the currect Wikipedia article, which now consist of not only a repro manufacturer's catalogue page but also his full-length promotional commercial. Wikipedia can do better than that, don't you agree? Jack Bethune 18:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cold Steel replica is somewhat notable. There is nothing to keep us from discussing other notable replicas as well. However, there is no conceivable reason why the Cold Steel image should be linked at "pokingstick.com" in particular, which is just one of many resellers. here is the manufacturer's page (yes, the pricetag for some reason is considerably higher, but Wikipedia isn't a "best buy" linkfarm), or, better still, here is a full review of the product by a neutral party, concluding that

The suggested retail price on the sword is $300 USD. The notion of value is entirely subjective, but I simply cannot state that I feel this sword is worth that asking price. Luckily, it can be found for substantially less from many on-line sellers. At a bit less than $200, I'd say it would be a good buy for those happy with what this sword can offer. For me, and my collecting tastes, this piece simply doesn't meet enough of my needs.

dab (𒁳) 11:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the only problem with the "myarmoury.com" example is that it is an illustration of the sword while the "pokingstick.com" example has the benfit of being an actual photograph. I think that best scenario would be if we could find an example of the same style that is from a completely non-commercial website.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
what are you talking about? The review article is positively crammed with "actual photographs". dab (𒁳) 12:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Oops, I was looking at the first link where there is only one partial photograph. The myarmoury page looks fine.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A short, wide, long, curved blade ?

The article reads: "Used for menial work in addition to battle, the großes Messer (alternately spelled Grossemesser) or Hiebmesser sported a short, wide blade with a single curved edge that led to a clipped-back tip (like a kilij). Its long, curved blade and the ferocious cutting power of the sword made it the European counterpart to the katana."

I'm confused. Is the blade short and wide, or is it long and curved ? 81.210.189.211 11:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well it definetly more long and curved than it is short and wide. You can find a picture of one under external links.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 11:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalisation

Messer should be spelled with a capital M. No29 17:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image Gallery

Hello disputors! ;-) I've added a picture for the Langes Messer in Vienna. As there was no article on the Langes Messer itself and as most Great Knives on the internet are often erroneously called Long Knives anyway, I've also added a redirect for Langes Messer to this page. If ever somebody wants to look at the Hungarian Long Knives and start a separate article, they're more than welcome to remove that redirect (and to use my blurred photograph of the thing). Cheers, Trigaranus 16:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And bugger - I'm not sure anymore whether I've confused the use of this Long Knife by leaders of Hungarian footsoldiers with a massive pickaxe I also saw at the Rüstkammer... If anybody knows more on the subject (or has recently looked at the exhibit in Vienna), please pour your knowledge in there. Trigaranus 16:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is wrong!

I am practising with those messers at the european martial arts school "Dreynschlag" in Austria. After reading this article it appears to me, that the author confused those two weapons.

1.) Lange Messer (long knives) are weapons having a long grip but are used with ONE hand. Their blade length seldom exceed 90cm and they have crossguards with a additional hook sideways for special binding techniques. They were used as sidearms in the late medieval ages by mercenaries and city militias. The german master Leküchner describes the use of those weaopons in his fencing manuscript.

2.) Große Messer (great knives) are weapons with an even larger grip and are always wielded using BOTH hands. They are usally quite huge and rather seldom used for fighting (like with the two-handed Swords) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.81.246.97 (talk) 12:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I am aware that this is the terminology used by some people. The question is, by whom, on what grounds, and since when? see also [4]. A more precise discussion of terminology would certainly be welcome. --dab (𒁳) 13:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)