Talk:Griefer

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Contents

[edit] Microsoft's Griefing Definition

Microsoft has a good definition of this (no link, sorry!), which covers more about verbal abuse rather than the team killing and techincal aspect of Griefing Borgs8472 17:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

Having read the article today and made some minor edits for the sake of clarity I have removed the weasel tag as the offending passages seem to have been removed. 13:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

"The typical stereotype is of a teenaged male who escapes a life of social ostracism and perhaps even parental abuse by lashing out at others in the only realm where he has power - the net." This statement seems pretty biased to me, so I slapped the section with an NPOV tag. --Antoshi~! T | C 21:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Biased? I'd probably write something like "the typical griefer is a psychopath and may share character traits with rapists, wifebeaters and other violent criminals." I don't think that would be POV at all.

Dude who wrote the above, who the hell do you think you are, calling people who play an online game a bit differently violent criminals? If I had enough time to waste on a game like WOW I would certainly "grief" rather than just waste my life pretending to be an elf or orc and playing exactly like everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.73.188 (talk) 21:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Reading skills? The section goes on to state that the stereotype is false. What's NPOV about exploding popular myths? -Kasreyn 17:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It simply is not neutral. It's as if to say that any abused or troubled teenager only had power taking it out on people over the internet, that's simply unacceptable. And furthermore, if it goes on to prove that it's false, why have it there in the first place? --Antoshi~! T | C 17:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
So it's unencyclopedic to state "In contrast to Myth B, Fact A is the case"? You have to always state "Fact A is the case" and nothing more? I have a hard time believing that, especially when it's a widespread myth or misperception that many readers might have an interest in learning the truth of.
My point is that I think it's our duty not only to report on what griefers are, but what people think of them. I'll admit that it's a hard thing to source, though. -Kasreyn 12:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh wow, you really made me laugh. "My point is that I think it's our duty not only to report on what griefers are, but what people think of them." Yeah, that's rich. Let's re-write Wikipedia, and, instead of puttting FACTS into articles, let's just put in OPINIONS. Your last comment is making me itch to just delete that entire part of the article, because apparently you're more biased in editing pages than anything else. What about the people who don't play online games and therefore have no idea what a Griefer is? So, are people who don't know immediately supposed to believe this drivel about them? And yeah, it is unencyclopedic to state "In contrast to Myth B, Fact A is the case", because instead of giving people straight facts, you first lie to them, THEN set them straight. Try reading WP:NPOV before you decide to add anymore OPINIONS to articles. --Antoshi~! T | C 18:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Have you ever tried to find reputable sources on the topic of "griefing"? Good luck with that. There aren't any. Therefore it's not really possible to source or prove anything we're talking about on this entire article. I'd delete it but someone would just re-create it.
I don't know exactly why you're going off on me like this, or becoming so angry. I'm not defending a piece of the article (that would violate WP:OWN), I'm simply trying to engage you in debate on whether wikipedia should report on public opinion. I already made my main point, which is the difficulty of sourcing information on "griefing". And for your information, I happen to spend almost all my wikipedia time reverting vandals and NPOV edits, so I really don't need or deserve your condescension. You've made your point, and I don't disagree. So how about you calm down and stop thinking of me as the enemy? -Kasreyn 01:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I think this quote from WP founder Jim Wales might be informative: "Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic, is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so." [1] This would seem to support my point, though as I've pointed out, the entire article suffers from a sourcing problem which might be insurmountable. -Kasreyn 04:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not so sure there is much of a sourcing problem. Why not use the quotes from article linked from the article specifically the part Dissecting griefer dysfunction to write/source that section? Google comes up with plenty of sources for other things as well. kotepho 05:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
If there's no sources on Griefing, that's fine and good. If Jimbo Wales says what he wants about encyclopedic writing, that's also fine and good. What's not fine and good is using either of those as excuses to be non-neutral or biased. Furthermore, the only reason I appear "angry", is because I don't much appreciate there being non-NPOV in this article and then having you defend them. And no, I don't believe I own this article. I didn't create this article, neither did I make any real edits to it other than posting the two tags that are there now. If you go ahead, and delete said text in the article, and then someone reverts or re-creates it, and then you remove it again, then you either direct them to this area of the Discussion page, or file for WP:RFM. However, if an article suffers from sourcing problems, then it either remains as a Stub until more information is available. However, I have gone ahead and listed this article as a WP:PNA, so perhaps someone else can help out. --Antoshi~! T | C 05:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it would be POV to say that griefers are psychopaths or otherwise mentally deranged, like rapists, wifebeaters and other violent criminals. It would simply be factual. Of course, some sort of source would be required.
Thats not a fact, thats an opinion. "Griefers" and criminals are not even comparable.
no opinions? quick, we need to delete every "Criticism" section in wikipedia! after all, it's people's opinions. NPOV means you can't include your own opinions. you can include popular ones in order to explain the truth or falsehood of them. --Makuta 18:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helpful

I found this article helpful, even if it is overly filled with jargon. I support its inclusion as a standalone article on the English-language Wikipedia. I would like to see it improved, however I lack the technical knowledge to do so. But I did come across a recent newspaper article that could point to recent trends in the use of this term and could be used as a reference: Davies, Martin (June 15, 2006) "Gamers don't want any more grief", The Guardian. - Wisekwai 11:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] abuse of features

Griefing isnt just about scamming or harrassing people, the abuse of features in ways not intended is a major part of it too. Non griefers also do this yeah, but similarly not all scammers or team killers are griefers.

No, I'm certain that is a misapprehension. Griefing is the act of abusing other players online. It's true that griefers typically make use of exploits - in fact, most of them do, and it's worth mentioning. But we must make it clear that not all griefers exploit, and it's not required for the definition of what griefing is. Kasreyn 22:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah yeah I see what you mean, its more a means to an end. 82.21.150.24 15:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groups

It seems to me that this particular section lacks hardly any verifiable sources. In fact, it seems to be mostly made up of the sheer opinion of whoever wrote it. Does anyone else have reason on why this section should exist? Also, is there any credible proof that any of the groups listed are "griefing groups"? DarkWolves was the only group listed in which evidence was actually supplied. 66.56.44.90 23:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Edit

I majorly rearranged the format of this article and added some information. Hopefully it works. I also removed the tone tag because I believe I fixed that - Arathwindmere


[edit] Origin of the Slang Term

Based on Google searches it appears that this term "Griefer" was coined by one of the online game manufacturers (WoW?) sometime on or before 2003. If someone could determine who coined the slang term this should be added to the article. This term was certianly not in use back in the Quake/Doom timeframe. We tended to just call them "campers". Cshay 23:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

After doing some Google Groups searches, it seems that this term showed up in the year 2000 with Ultima Online. Cshay 10:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Camping is not griefing! Possibly laming in a Free For All game. I couldn't stand when people would cry "camper" in an objective based game like capture the flag...in an objective based game camping is called "tactics". - AbstractClass 17:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Didn't mean to step into any religious war, I don't even play games anymore. I was just saying that "camping" was the closest word we had for it back then since at least *some* people were seriously annoyed with campers. There didn't seem to be any general term for troublemaking back in the Quake days. I still think this term was invented by an Ultima Online documentation writer :) I never saw it before then. Cshay 17:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Griefers of Scale

I think perhaps something should be said about this concept mostly relevant to FPSes. A talented griefer may aim to not just target individual players but have the goal of causing chaos on an entire server causing it to degenerate into an orgy of team killing, kick votes, fear and loathing.

The griefer might operate more covertly attempting to have a target think another player had caused the offense, leading him to take retribution on the innocent player causing him to think that his attacker is a griefer so he attacks back. Instigate this trouble enough to reach a critical mass and the server degenerates.

Also throw in random griefs in the interim such as kick votes (which has the additional benefit of keeping people from running a kick vote against you). Team griefing (having a partner in crime) is very usefull when trying to cause widespread chaos. - AbstractClass 16:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This kind of comment is not useful if it is Original Research. Please cite your sources or don't bother with it. Cshay 17:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] We need to de-weasel this article

See WP:WEASEL. This article contains too many instances of phrases like "In some people's opinion", "Other people feel that", "These players will often consider", "A number of gaming groups are believed to exist for the sole purpose of griefing" (better to rephrase this one by stating who believes this). -- 201.50.253.154 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Consider rewriting the following: "In some people's opinion, a player must meet several if not all points listed for a player to be considered griefing. Other people feel that curbing any of their enjoyment of the game to be a form of griefing whether it meets any of the listed criteria or not. These players will often consider the following actions to constitute griefing: kill stealing, player killing, spamming, team killing (or team wounding), door or path blocking, ninja looting, spawn camping, and corpse camping. These actions often meet one of the criteria but may fail to meet others."
To: "Other accepted griefing behaviours are: kill stealing, player killing, spamming, team killing (or team wounding), door or path blocking, ninja looting, spawn camping, and corpse camping." Much shorter and with fewer weasels?--64.141.104.2 17:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bullies ref?

Several parts of the "Overview" section have a reference tag which appears to be broken. Right now it's reference [3], it has a name of "bullies" but no description or URL or anything. Should this reference be removed?

[edit] Too much jargon

I can't make heads or tails of this article, and I'm a pretty old hand with video games. Could someone go through the piece with an eye to making it understandable to someone who has never played an online multiplayer game before? — Brian (talk) 06:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


Great article, guys. Nice job :)

[edit] Why does article glorify griefing?

This article, while lacking any citation to the effect, appears to glorify griefing as some kind of exciting new sport. "Griefing is a malignant form of emergent gameplay." -- while it may be malignant and emergent, it is certainly not a form of gameplay.

Article suggests that Griefing is some sort of specialized form of harassment, where flaws in game design must be employed. I argue that while exploiting game flaws may be quite popular for griefers, it's certainly not required. All that is required is intent to diminish gameplay for others.

Casual griefing should also be mentioned. As any person who is bored and begins misbehaving (teamkilling, cursing/screaming into the vox, etc) essentially becomes a griefer.

I am hesitant to try to push any of these objectives in the article however, as griefers (malignant, evolved versions of trolls) exist here as well and are likely to try to derail Wikipedia's own production process in order to cause grief to the readers and maintainers of this encyclopedia. I don't feel any urge to jump headlong into the cesspool of drama that shall inevitably result. Jesset77 (talk) 02:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong—it *is* a form of gameplay; just one you don't happen to like. All the worse for you. All the better for the griefer. You're exactly the type griefers pray to come across, sport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.42 (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Team Roomba

This article is woefully out of date without any mention of TF2's Team Roomba griefers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.42 (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)