Talk:Greyhawk

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This article is part of The World of Greyhawk Wikiproject, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the World of Greyhawk campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
To-do list for Greyhawk: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Add citations
  • Review content for gaps in timeline
  • Review content for POV or speculation
  • Expand intro section
  • Clean out remaining redlinks

Contents

[edit] Greyhawk Novels

I got the listing of novels from the following website: Fantasic Fiction - Greyhawk --Azathar 15:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


Note added 2/2/06 by a passerby: I believe the listing of the 1996 short story "Evening the Odds" is in error in that it does not take place on Oerth. It may involve Gord the Rogue, but I believe the story takes place in Michael Moorcock's shared multiverse setting, not in the World of Greyhawk. I cannot verify this directly because I don't have a copy of the story myself, but you may want to look into this question in terms of ensuring accuracy. Thanks for putting this page together; I'll come back and visit again sometime. Cheers!


Zvar 01:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the Novels list, and in the process I deleted the following (Preserved here in case I'm wrong):

Both books, looking at Norton's website and Amazon don't look to be set in Greyhawk. If someone knows for a fact they are, please re-add.
>END COMMENT by Zvar<

Actually, I'm pretty sure Quag Keep is set in Greyhawk. The Return book, I don't know anything about. Does anyone have a definitive source (or have the books to check)? Also, the point above from a "passerby" (me, before I got an account) I think is still valid. I don't believe that the short story "Evening the Odds" has anything to do with Greyhawk, other than it is about Gord the Rogue (after, maybe long after, he left Oerth). Fairsing 05:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Quag Keep is indeed set in Greyhawk (& presumably RtQK as well), though it isn't a Greyhawk most would recognize. The book was published prior to the setting's release, & thus the geography (as well as other features) is quite different than what appears in the official setting release of 1980 & expansion in 1983. Therefore, while most Greyhawk fans don't regard QK as canon, though they do recognize it for its historical significance, being the first Greyhawk novel & all.--Robbstrd 23:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting overhaul

I've re-formatted the page to conform to Wikipedia style. In the process, I converted many bolded names to redlinks, which I will try to fill out as time permits. -Harmil 11:40, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Note added 2/2/06 by a passerby: I believe the listing of the 1996 short story "Evening the Odds" is in error in that it does not take place on Oerth. It may involve Gord the Rogue, but I believe the story takes place in Michael Moorcock's shared multiverse setting, not in the World of Greyhawk. I cannot verify this directly because I don't have a copy of the story myself, but you may want to look into this question in terms of ensuring accuracy. Thanks for putting this page together; I'll come back and visit again sometime. Cheers!

[edit] Next steps

At this point, my next steps will involve de-redlinking this page. That means creating articles for everything associated with Greyhawk. After that:

  • Find images of boxed set covers
  • Include more of the history of the campaign, how it played into D&D's early years, etc.
  • Some mention of the falling out with EGG, though I don't want to dwell on it
  • Touch on the current change in direction, and Wizards' plan to switch the default game world
  • Shape the article up to the point that it could legitimately be a FAC

-Harmil 19:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Nice proposal, I'll help where I can. I think the falling out of EGG and TSR should be dealt with on his own page and/or the TSR page, though I agree that maybe a brief mention of it here, and how it chnaged TSR's (and later WotC's) perception of Greyhawk, versus how EGG perceived it. BTW, FAC? Do you mean FAQ?--Azathar 03:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
"FAC" is short for Featured article candidate. Stan 12:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I've been away a bit since I wrote the above, but fear not: I'm still at it. Just wrote Castle Greyhawk and updated both articles with the original Greyhawk cover (Image:Greyhawk Supplement 1975.jpg). -Harmil 11:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Greyhawk" Supplement has no significant setting information

There is no information on the "World of Greyhawk" in the 1975 supplement by that name. It is what we would tday call pure "crunchy bits", and includes much of what is now considered to be "Core" D&D -- the theif and paladin classes, 7th,8th,and 9th level spells, classic monsters such as the Beholder, many of the "standard" magic items, etc. However, there's nothing in there on the Greyhawk world per se -- rather, this is rules material used by Gary Gygax in that campaign.

Feb 2, 2006 -Actually, there is one bit of setting detail, but it is so minor as to be essentially irrelevant. Specifically, on p. 63 there is a brief note regarding a magic fountain in the dungeon of Castle Greyhawk. So, "no significant setting" information is probably a more precise description.

[edit] Formatting of intro

Someone seems to have been going through some of the Greyhawk articles and re-formatting the intro. The new formatting that is being introduced is in conflict with Wikipedia style guidelines, and should generally be avoided. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd change some things too, but readers of Wikipedia have come to expect information to be presented in a certain way, and one part of that is having the title of the article appear as early in the first sentence as possible, in bold.

Also, to the issue of Greyhawk Dragons. They are not unique to Greyhawk, though in other settings they are simply called Steele Dragons. -Harmil 00:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I would be one of those. The change to format, in regard to setting information, is explained at Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games/Style, though not everyone agrees. And it's good to have a fellow Greyhawker return. :)Robbstrd 00:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
In any case, the formatting change is not technically in conflict with the Manual of Style.[1] -- Ec5618 01:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I haven't really been all that gone, just spending a lot of time on another wiki that you might find interesting. As for the Wikiproject, I'll check it out and contribute some thoughts there if it seems it would help. Personally, I'd rather focus on the real content than a new intro formatting scheme. -Harmil 05:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to RPGnet

I've restored the link to RPGnet. I browsed it a bit. There's some useful information there. I don't think that we should remove links only because they were added by someone with a vested interest, though that certainly raises some alarms. If there's a real problem with the content, please let's discuss it. -Harmil 13:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Any external link added by an administrator of the site to which the link points is fair game for removal by any other editor as it violoates Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided, point number 3. It is also possible that the RPGNet site violates point number 4 on that list as well, regarding avoiding links to sites that sell products & services or have "objectionable amounts of advertising." All that being said, I'm fine accepting the consensus of the other editors of this page. If the consensus is that the value of the link to RPGNet outweighs the concerns about it being a commercial site, then it's ok with me. Fairsing 15:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the editor who added the link was acting rashly, but I was just advocating looking at the content of the link and deciding based on that. The guidelines aren't "rules for what links to blow away with extreme prejudice," just a way to judge how reasonable (or unreasonable) you might be behaving. It's another story if you're spamming your links over several articles... then I would suggest (and have used) the Big Guns.
Personal note: I almost violated this rule, myself, but ended up just adding my link to the talk page at Talk:List of Greyhawk deities. *plug* ;-) -Harmil 18:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Good comments. To your point about spam, the author had added a link to his Web site in five different Wikipedia articles before I decided to back them all out. Despite this, I don't think it was that author's intent to deliberately spam the encyclopedia, although that might have been the net result. I believe the author was acting in good faith and honestly thought Wikipedia would be better off with multiple links to his site, but of course that's exactly why the guidline exists -- it's better for a site administrator to recognize that he or she is inherently biased when it comes to his or her own site and allow others to make the (presumably more objective) call as to whether or not the links should be added. Fairsing 20:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-referential links

I removed the link from the article to the project page. Seemed like it went against Wikipedia's guideline to avoid self-referencing links in such spaces. My understanding is that all project stuff is supposed to be done on talk pages or project pages, (except for templates and portals, which are of course designed to go into article space). Fairsing 03:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The future of this article

My goal has always been to see Greyhawk become a featured article, and hopefully even one day see the front page. To that end, I intend to start work on the fairly typical progression that articles should go through:

The longest journey begins with but a single step, or so they say. Thus, I'll start adding citations and scanning the text for problems sometime this week. -Harmil 02:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal for Kalamanthis

Kalamanthis will most likely be nominated for AFD soon by a contributor who makes many AFD requests daily. Before this happens, I request discussion about merging the article's small content into the Geography and population in this article. - Ukulele 21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Clarification: My statement about the above contributor making "many AFD requests daily" was not intended to come off as a judgment or snarky remark-- a poor choice of words on my part. But there is a current and IMHO fast-paced clean-up effort taking place regarding RPG content by several contributors, so time may be short before Kalamanthis may be nominated for AFD-- and I believe the case for it will be strong as the article stands. Ukulele 17:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal for Battle of a Fortnight's Length

Battle of a Fortnight's Length may soon be deleted (I did propose the deletion btw). What do you think about including the article's content in a separate section in this main article? - Ukulele 22:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Xan Yae

Why does Xan Yae redirect here? 24.7.121.2 19:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grassroots Movement section

Yes, I just tagged the hell out of this section, because almost each and every sentence in it is based on vague, "many felt..." statements with no citations. Honestly, I could have put [who?] and [citation needed] on every sentence, but that would have been too many tags to actually read the article. It is wildly non-NPOV, treating the people who lobbied for the return of Greyhawk as righteous unsung heroes and TSR as clearly unwilling to listen to them, without considering any other issues (such as the sales numbers for Greyhawk products might have been that led to TSR canceling the line). This entire section needs to be rewritten without weasel words and with a balanced POV. Specific objections:

  • Article states that "Because Gygax was also the creator of The World of Greyhawk setting, his materials were considered “Canon” – bona fide Greyhawk history even when it disagreed with events in “official” TSR products." Considered "canon" by whom? Who are these mysterious men who have decided, on behalf of all people who ever played in Greyhawk, that Gygax's info trumps that of TSR? Is there some secret cabal somewhere?
  • Do we have any proof that "TSR found itself on the defensive", or is it just what those who love the setting hope was happening?
  • Who "widely considered" the fan work to be as good or better than the published stuff? Reviewers? If so, cite them.
  • If transcripts exist of TSR workers yelling at fans over Greyhawk, they should be linked. Otherwise, it's just negative rumors.

I also eliminated sentences implying that Greyhawk fans are smarter and better educated, and one indicating unsubstantiated rumors about writers working for fan sites. This section needs to get whipped into shape with the facts--and JUST facts--or this article will never make it to FA status. Right now, it reads like propaganda written to create the impression that a massive outpouring of support happened without providing any actual proof thereof. Without citations and clearer language, though, it's all just rumor and opinion. --Ig8887 (talk) 06:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I just removed the entire section--it was all added by a single editor with few other contributions.--Robbstrd (talk) 21:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Good, thanks for doing that! Web Warlock (talk) 00:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. I considered doing that myself, but I wasn't aware that it had been added by one person, and the idea that Greyhawk fans continued the world's popularity through a period without official support seemed like a valid idea for a section. Just, you know, a well-written and researched section. --Ig8887 (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
It basically is what happened, but I doubt it's well documented at all. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sunndi

Hallo, I know nothing about Greyhawk but was helping out at Wikipedia:Most wanted articles in a Wiki-gnomish way and created a stub for Sunndi, as there were 21 redlinks to it. It's threatened with being turned into a Redirect back to Greyhawk unless it gets a bit more content. I've added a sentence or two, but it would be great if one of you enthusiasts would expand the article! PamD (talk) 18:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lum the Mad

Probably shouldn't direct here unless you actually have something to say about him, better off as a red article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 07:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)