Talk:Grendel's mother/Archive 1

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Contents

On the term "aglæc"

Should the information contained in this page be better placed on a separate page that covers the historical problems translating the word? Putting the information on the page for Grendel's mother, when it also relates to Grendel, Beowulf, and (if I'm not mistaken) the fire-dragon, simply doesn't make sense.

I don't agree - the entire discussion about the nature of Grendel's Mother in this article is dependent upon the ambiguity surrounding the word "aglæc". A separate page on "aglæc" which goes indepth into the scholarship of this term is fair - I don't see the need, however, to remove the discussion of "aglæc" from the "Grendel's Mother" page as the articles listed in the reference area all discuss "Grendel's Mother" in terms of this word.

I'm not an Anglo-Saxon philologist, but the discussion about "aglæc" on this page is interesting to me because it seems entirely to be attempting to derive the meaning of the word from its context in this one line out of Beowulf. Is there no other occurrance of this word in any known document? If not, is it even possible to do anything other than to equate it to whatever one wants to think or feel about Grendel's Mother? -- Jfruh 23:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

content

what about some content on what she does in the story. GraemeLeggett 09:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the article needs to put her into context. I admit that I have not read Beowulf in almost 4 years (a borrowed copy of the Seamus Heaney translation). After Beowulf defeats Grendel, they celebrate the victory. But then Grendel's mother attacks. Beowulf follows her back to her lair under a lake where he is stuck, but neither can seem to defeat each other. Then Beowulf takes a special sword that he finds and chops off her head.

This could mean two things, from what I can gather. Either she is simply seeking vengence for the death of Grendel, or she is just as tainted as Grendel and her killing behavior would have proliferated because Grendel was no longer alive to take up the role of a terror in the night. If the case is true with the former, then what Grendel's mother did was honorable to her son. If their killing of Hroðgar's men was necessary for some reason of survival (eg, the coyote must hunt the deer to eat) then the motives are naturalistic, not a divine holy versus evil serario. That being the case, it does not matter if Grendel's mother sought revenge or not because she would have slaughtered the pigs anyway, so to speak. Another possibility is that Grendel and his mother were either evil or psychotic. In this case, the killing is inherent, but not necessary (in the same way that eating or harvesting is). That being so, it doesn't matter if Grendel's mother wanted revenge or not because she would have continued killing anyway.

From the perspective of writing a good story (in my opinion), it seems that the most exciting reason for Grendel's mother to act the way she did was out of vengence. Take that as the case for the moment. It is possible that Grendel and his mother had different motives, so Grendel still could have been evil, psychotic, or feeding; if vengence is the case, then Grendel's motivations for killing are independent of, though not necessarily different from, those of his mother and visa versa.

Ideas anyone? Trakon 22:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

You raise some very good points. If you are really interested in these issues, you might consider exploring a version of the text in the original Old English language (there are guides listed which can help you through it). Translations vary on the points you raise above (there are numerous translations to look at as well) so exploring the Old English might help you think through some of these ideas. -Classicfilms 02:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Song Reference

There's a song by the Mountain Goats called "Grendel's Mother" which is written from the perspective of, well, Grendel's Mother, as a message to Beowulf. It's rather touching.

See also and popular culture sections

1. Popular culture section. This was based upon the following section in the Beowulf article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Beowulf_in_art Rather than delete, the section can be re-written or turned into a separate article that stands alone as a list much as the list that was created for the Beowulf article

2. See also. I'm not certain why this link was deleted. The article argues that this is one possible interpretation of Grendel's mother, who is listed in the article linked. It is thus related to the larger article.

-Classicfilms 05:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I moved the "popular culture" section to a new article based upon List of artistic depictions of Beowulf and created a small intro section on the main Grendel's mother page based upon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Beowulf_in_art This should solve the problem. -Classicfilms 05:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Good move regarding the trivia section.
This article presents a number of theories regarding Grendel's Mother. While the direct translation is the best bet, we can only reference for the sake of neutrality. By placing the link in the "see also" section so you are violating WP:NPOV by lending further support to a theory. It may be subtle, but it's notable. If you want the link there, somehow work it into a section discussing her roles as a warrior figure. You've also misplaced it - it should be at the bottom of the article as with any other article. :bloodofox: 06:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - and thanks for bringing the trivia issue up. I tend to like to find a way to integrate trivia into the article, sometimes as a separate list, rather than a full delete since readers may be looking for the information. Otherwise your "see also" argument is fair. I moved it to a "further" link here. Does this read as more NPOV?
Thanks too for your work on the article - really good improvements. -Classicfilms 06:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I am glad to help. It's always a pleasure when editing with considerate users such as yourself! :bloodofox: 06:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - I'm always open to suggestions - sometimes it takes a second set of eyes to tell whether edits are NPOV or not. You seem to have a very good background for this article so I look forward to your future edits. -Classicfilms 06:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)