Talk:Gregorian Bivolaru
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[edit] NOT NPOV
I don't know who wrote most of the information in this article - I don't know if the contributors are Romanians or not, but I can tell you as a Romanian that this article is lacking a NPOV. It is almost like the article was written by a MISA member.
If is written by a MISA member is automatically not corect? MISA members and students know him and they know his biography better. Please read the APADOR-CH, AmnestyInternational and Sojust reports. They speak about authorities abuse so trust them. Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
For example this paragraph: Even after 1990, he was persecuted by the police. In 2005, he was charged for eight counts, including having sex with a minor, tax evasion, and illegally crossing the border.
So what? What is the point in this paragraph? If someone commits an illegal act or there is reasonable suspicion about this and the police investigates the situation is this persecution??? The Romanian police and prosecutors acted because there were video tapes and witneses documenting their actions. Charging a person for tax evasion and illegally crossing the border is not persecution, is applying the laws. If someone does not pay the taxes should the authotities avoid taking any measure in order not to 'persecute' him/her? This is plain stupid.
Been charged doesnt make you automatically guilty. They where a lot of charges over the last 17 years and no conviction. THIS CAN BE AN ABUSE.Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And the other aspects - regarding sex with a minor - there are video tapes with nude MISA members and some of them -including one minor- addmited that they have been having sex. Having sex with a minor is illegal in in Romania, in USA and I am sure in a lot of other "civilised" countries too (I am not sure abut Sweden). No offense swedish people - but Sweden granting asylum to Bivolaru is almost being as guilty as him. LATER EDIT: Yeah I forgot to sign.-Paul- 22:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
See the video taped statment of the girl (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7329568547831033339). It was taken under presure and force and without lawyer even if she was a minor. Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Please sign your entries, so I can talk to you. 2. That was badly worded. Should've put the "even after 1990" part a paragraph upper. 3. The NPOV is disputed here. Who's right? The press? the yogis? the police? Vadim? ok, the last one was thrown into the discussion without a point. You see, the campain against him was so violent that it's hard to beleieve everything's fine with the press. I mean, look at the way they call him in press, look at all the sarcasm in the press. Is that normal? Is that right?
They were drinking PEE and staying together nude with naked minors - is THAT right ??? -Paul- 22:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I mean, Gabriel Bivolaru did a lot of bad things too - and he was just a side story. News: "there was a murder in ****, a man killed his wife. he came late at home during the night, grabbed the knife and stabbed her. And now, on to the next news: scandal! Yogis are in sexual orgies! The damned sectants drink their own piss. Look at how that horrible man is brainwashing 30.000 people! Beware! He will kidnap your kids and have sex with them. Did we tell you yogis gather up in spirals and worship their newly-afounded god, Bivolaru? Amazing, ain't it? We swear it's just like that. Look! We even have a picture of them in a spiral!" - get my drift? Besides, the minor was 17. And it's not illegal in romania to have sex with a 17 year-old. it's illegal to have sex with somebody up to 15 years. (it's illegal 15-18 if you're the parent, tutor, teacher, etc.). And the girl retreated the accusation saying it was given under pressure. Of course, nobody cared about that and about the fact that she said that she'd been forced to sign a paper after many hours of people yelling at her and pulling her hair. Sarshi 21:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Marital Status
This place is the first and only place I ever heard of Bivolaru being married. The reference link is not working. Someone please take care of this, either by adding a reference or by deleting that part. Sarshi 21:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
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Ok, this is still the only place I've heard about him being married. I actually dug up the reference, since the link didn't work (see my past complaint) and found the following article:
"Guru Bivolaru are mandat pentru crima organizata 16 Aprilie 2005 Raluca Dan Cosmin Torr
Gregorian Bivolaru s-a ales cu un nou mandat de arestare pentru 30 de zile, intr-un dosar in care este acuzat de trafic de fiinte umane si infractiuni asociate crimei organizate. Mandatul pe numele mentorului Miscarii de Integrare Spirituala in Absolut a fost emis ieri, in mare taina, de magistratii Tribunalului Bucuresti. Surse judiciare ne-au declarat ca, incepind din decembrie 2001 si pina in 2004, Guru Bivolaru a condus un grup de 17 persoane care obtineau bani in urma exploatarii sexuale a adeptilor Miscarii de Integrare Spirituala in Absolut. Dupa ce erau recrutate, victimele erau sechestrate in ashram-uri. Grupul folosea in special tinere, care erau obligate fie sa se prostitueze, fie sa devina protagonistele unor show-uri erotice transmise prin intermediul unui video-chat. In acelasi dosar, Bivolaru mai este acuzat de inca o infractiune: sustragere de la urmarirea penala. Urmarit international inca din vara anului trecut, Gregorian Bivolaru a fost prins in orasul Malm?, din Suedia, dupa ce depusese o cerere de azil politic. Instanta suedeza urmeaza sa se pronunte in privinta extradarii acestuia in Romania."
-not a word about a wife! Amazing...
I'm deleting the marriage part.
Sarshi 21:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Well He DOES have a wife. I met her many times. she told me about her pains and sorrows of suffering many years of being "hidden" for legal and other reasons. He provides a small (cold in the winter) place for her to "live". She is a very sensitive and kind woman who TAUGHT him most of what he knew (esp about Tibetan philosophy, etc) in the beginning times of his "career" as a "guru". They spent quite a lot of time together back in the 70's in France. Sorry, but confirming her by name may not be wise at this time. As for him. Be Wise and know he has taken much from the needy and poor and well as from others from the West. Now he is free and out of Romania. So many families have been destroyed and children of those yogi families. caught-up in the nightmare created.
There's NO wife. He never was married. I have seen a few biographies and not one included marriage. I have talked to many, many yogis - and not one ever mentioned his wife. Not even the papers, the scandal creators, have mentioned any wife. That paragraph is unreferenced and has no basis in reality. I am removing that until you have proof. And the fact that you are biased doesn't mean you can invent stuff like this and post it here. Sarshi 07:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Sarshi, I respect your sincerity but when I was in Costinesti, I spent many many days with her (name withheld per her request), who told be all about herself and Greig. You may never have met her. I swear this is true. I believe her for many reasons to include her living situation nearby Grieg's Villa and other yogis who were with us at the time in her place who also know of her. I do not wish to see innocent people harmed - families destroyed - children misguided anywhere at anytime in this world.
Go ahead with your beliefs, I am just a bit upset about things that certain yogis should Never have told me, as they broke their promises of things/activities to be kept secret within the organization (according to them). Even Grieg's driver at that time verified some things not publicly (even to most of the yogis) known. I understood that Simi was rejected (I believe for money theft) from the organization shortly after the last attack on MISA and on the ashrams.
After careful consideration... i will now leave this issue in the hands of our Creator. I pray that someday soon we will all become much more harmonious and open and loving. Grapeheart 14:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Meh, sorry about the fuming around. It's just that the wife reference appeared around the same time as some vandalisms on this page. The link for checking this out pointed out to an article that had no connection to the problem. Google, in this case, was not my friend and it showed nothing when I searched to see if there's anything about his marital status. Anyway, wife or no wife, my opinion is that we shouldn't include stuff that can't be referenced anywhere. Sarshi 20:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Yoga movement
Actually, it is, surprisingly, a yoga organisation. It was even recognized internationally. And no other country but Romania seems to have problems with MISA, so it remains a "yoga organization" and not a "so-called yoga organisation". Sarshi 12:00 AM, 20 June 2006
Sarshi, I am only reporting what I witnessed first-hand (regarding Japan and women) and was told by many of the women who went there again -- they were not supposed to tell me anything, but I was GIVEN the information by THEM, the yogi women... and then it was verified by Simi and others over a period of time. I saw the passport handling and losses, etc. Not because I wanted to but because They chose to expose this to me! I only know what I saw and heard from being with the yogis. Sometimes the Truth hurts us, but we must be honest with ourselves if we are to progress in this life and the next.
Sincerely Grapeheart 14:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It is a yoga organization. The yogis actually practice yoga (at least, the majority of them do), so therefore it's a yoga organization. The scandals and stuff can be posted in the article and they should. But you don't start it with the words "so-called yoga organization". Let me explain this in the following way: if in a political Party 30% of the members are doing illegal activities and 40% of the members are slacking off and showing up at half the meetings, it is still called a political party. Because as long as it has activities as a party, it's still a party. So it happens with MISA. Even if some of the members might be doing this and that, even if some don't really practice yoga at home, even if, even if... MISA still holds yoga courses. Well organized, 18 years of courses already, any number of techniques and tens of thousands of people doing yoga. Therefore, regardless of what some members do, it's still a yoga organization. Sarshi 15:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
if in a party, the HEADS of the party PROMOTE an activity, then that is to be considered a criterion based on which do judge the whole party. if in a "yoga movement" the HEAD promotes so called "shakti groups" where young teenagers are recruited for "belly dances" in japan clubs (we all know what that means), then the yoga movement is just an international brothel. (post made by some person who won't sign)
sign the comments you make. it's easier to talk to you that way. So, to reply: even if you judge the whole party by that criteria, as long as there are still politicians in it, you still call it a party - you called it that just now, right?... "a criterion on which do judge the whole party" - aka, it's still a political party. same thing here. call it a yoga organization that doesn't do as it promotes to do if you like, but you can't say it's not a yoga organization as long as there are people actually practising yoga in it.Sarshi 18:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Costitesti
Is that "Costitesti" supposed to be Costeşti or Costineşti? bogdan 21:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Brother
The media later said that the thoery that Gabriel Bivolaru is Gregorian Bivolaru's half-brother was a mistake, based on the similarity of the names, so, I am going to remove that paragraph from there. Sufitul 06:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
I have gone through this article and cleaned it up for language and POV issues, including correcting some things based on notes on this page. --Lendorien 18:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Juridical status of Mr. Bivolaru
Please do not try to make Mr. Bivolaru a convicted person as log as he was only been charged with accusations that where not accepted to be corect by the Swedish autorities. The prosecutors are beeing now charged for their abuses so maybe they want to cover some of the facts. Stop removing the links and references to movies with statements and to Human Rights Reports.Corect 15:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- You shouldn't cry wolf as long you keep whitewashing Bivolaru and removing the references and the links stating otherwise. The current version looks like a MISA propaganda manual. And btw, you violated the 3RR rule. Mentatus 19:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I did NOT removed any reference. The so called "proofs" are still there, please check in the references section. I only added some information. But in the article were many suppositions, rumors, gossips that had in fact as a reference only some broken links. I think you are intoxicated by the media. Better read the "Mass media campaign section" in the (http://www.gregorianbivolaru.com) site. I hope you don't agree with the journalist Emanuel Isopescu who expresses a "very neutral point of view" when he says he "would break Mr. Bivolaru’s neck". This is just one example of well documented instigation against Gregorian Bivolaru. There are many more in the Google videos and in the official site. For example the declarations of some Members of Parlament. I don't know if I have violated any rule, but certainly I offered some correct and well documented information. Corect 11:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mircea Eliade
Could somebody please rephrase this? "Mircea Eliade a historian of religions, philosopher and writer who is considered to be a "public enemy" by many people who have known him." - I doubt that he was considered a public enemy by many people who knew him, he was a public enemy by communist standards, rather. Sarshi 16:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your notice Sarshi. Corect 08:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
What proof do you have of his alleged correspondence with Mircea Eliade? [Dan]
[edit] Controversy
Well, there are two sides of the story here. So maybe we should add a "controversy" tab, in which to state what the yogis think and what the anti-yogis think, so that anybody who reads this will see both "sides of the coin". And then maybe some of the NPOV trouble will be reduced. Maybe. Sarshi 16:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- Try Calumny and Disparagement instead of Controversy. The Swedish Supreme Court noted that that the evidence against Bivolaru on charges of rape, tax fraud, and anti-Semitic statements, was insufficient. The Helsinki Committee for Human Rights says that witnesses against him had been forced to lie. In addition, certain Romanian legislators have called Bivolaru “Satan”, “psychopath”, and “terrorist.” When the basic rights of yogis are reestablished in Romania, when justice will be done, we can think if there is a controversy or not. Until then, anyone with "anti-yogis"(!???) opinions, please come with facts and proofs. Corect 08:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Counter opinions about Mister Bivolaru
I added to the links' sections a blog with ex-MISA yogis' stories ("initiations" where Mr. Bivolaru had sex with hundreds of teenager brainwashed girls, copyright infringements in the yoga courses taught by Mr. Bivolaru, human trafficking and proxenetism in Japan, unremunerated "karma yoga" on construction yards, videochat erotic shows made as "karmayoga" with the income donated to the movement, etc.) and a forum for talks. They are in Romanian, but we're working on an English version with the most important posts.
Was the judicial action against Mr. Bivolaru an abuse ? Yes. Is he the innocent person that his adepts portray him to be ? No.
When some big government official's daughter got involved with MISA and decided to move into an "ashram" and drop school, her daddy called Bivolaru personally and gave him an ultimatum. Bivolaru managed to babble something about "personal freedom of choice" and "free arbiter". The man went mad with rage, and went to his friend Nastase (an important politician) who took the matter into his own hands. That's the underside of the whole Bivolaru trial: corrupt politicians acting illegally against a known proxenet and crook. He escaped thanks to his SRI ("Romanian Information Service" - an intelligence agency) conections, being hand-in-hand with a known big "securitate" officer, Teoctist, the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church (they are partners in the business of selling religion).
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You forgot to sign again. It's not nice to give anonymus tips like these, it makes them seem as if you were acting on behalf of a hate group. Soooo...
1. no forums allowed as reference. It's in wiki's rules. "Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise unverifiable statements about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below)."
2. (definitely less NPOV on my side here) *rolls eyes* you seem to be very pompous and phrase your words to sound as terrible as possible. ""initiations" where Mr. Bivolaru had sex with hundreds of teenager brainwashed girls" - at the same time? hundreds? Gosh, if only normal guys could do that O_o
"unremunerated "karma yoga" on construction yards" - wow, people worked for free because they wanted to. And... that's a crime? *goes off to her old school* The law DEMANDS you give me money for the time I painted the door!
"Was the judicial action against Mr. Bivolaru an abuse ? Yes. Is he the innocent person that his adepts portray him to be ? No." - kinda useless to militate on the encyclopedia's talk page, but meh.
"Bivolaru managed to babble something about "personal freedom of choice" and "free arbiter"." True. How DARE a girl decide to move away from home and give up the school for the first reason that popped into her mind?... Shame on the scapegoat!
"being hand-in-hand with a known big "securitate" officer, Teoctist, the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church (they are partners in the business of selling religion)." O_o Securitate?... you mean those guys that imprisoned him 20-something years before and beat him half to death?... Sarshi 18:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] BS article
Well it seems Grig still has his filthy army of drones to look after his "interests" back home. A disgusting pervert whose "organisation" was nothing but a facade for promiscuity and pimping, a man who is personally responsible for brainwashing and ruining the lives of countless young girls, many of them underage, is presented as some great hero for freedom of speech. It just shows what a stupid, incompetent dictator Ceusescu was for not sending someone to put a bullet in this guy's head back in the 80s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 11:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] tantric initiations
Mr. Bivolaru proudly claims to have had sex with over 6000 women, the majority of them being students of the yoga courses. As soon as he sees a picture of a woman he likes, he sends her an invitation, and she is then persuaded by his fanatical followers to go and meet him because this will enhance her spiritual evolution, burn her karma, awaken her state of shakti etc. As he never uses any means of protection, many women are reported to have been infected by him with several sexually transmitted diseases, which have become very resistant to medication even after one year of treatment. Although he receives larges amounts of money from various enterprises in which his followers are involved, like striptease in night-clubs, erotic video-chat and adult movies, it has been difficult to follow legal charges against him, because he never does anything on his own name, so he is officially not involved, although the girls are told that they are doing it for him and for the yoga school. Mr. Bivolaru believes himself to be a liberated spiritual master who has a special mission to awaken spiritually the planet. This is why all the strange things that he does are supposed to have a "Divine integration" and a higher meaning, so many people fall pray to the beautiful lies that are circulated in his school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamapura (talk • contribs) 15:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Claimed accusations and calumnies
Gregorian Bivolaru and his sect are not what the author of the article claims them to be. I personally know of women that were sent to Japan where they used the sexual techniques they learned while parctising with the sect as a tool with japanese men in exchange for large sums of money and at least half of that money was going to Bivolaru and MISA. Bivolaru is supposed to be in prison for human trafficking ant for instigating to prostitution. All Misa members know about that. Like every sect MISA is a dangerous organization that should be dissolved and the head of MISA Gregorian Bivolaru should be extradite to Romania and hold responsible for his acts. (Morgen1013 (talk) 17:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC))
Your claims are abusive and not sustained by any valid proof or justice decision. MISA is an valid NGO and only supporters of the comunist regime and old Securitate can ask for dissolvation. Gregorian Bivolaru CANNOT be extradited to Romania because of the extradition request declined by the Supreme Court of Justice in Stockholm (http://gregorianbivolaru.net/sweden-3-1.php) and because of the political asylum request, accepted by the Swedish Emigration Authority who concluded that Gregorian Bivolaru is unjustly mistreated in Romania due to his beliefs. The decision is undeniable and cannot be challenged by the Romanian Authorities. 78.97.145.13 (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC
Gregorian Bivolaru is a very dangerous person and I REPEAT, HE IS GUILTY OF PROVIDING AND INSTIGATION TO PROSTITUTION AND OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING. All I stated above is true- I know it for sure because I had to assist as a translator to quite a few cases of fraud, prostitution and extortion done by members of MISA - mainly by women offenders. You are brainwashed, what are you trying to tell me that the communist regime that does not exist anymore is manipulating every decent citizen and in truth Bivolaru is a misunderstood genius and a good person? Bivolaru is a dangerous criminal and so are most members of this sect MISA- that are his accolytes. We give MISA the benefit of a doubt because we live in a free world but MISA is a dangerous organization and should be illegal. I hope Romanian Government gets this Bivolaru in prison soon . The Swedish Government will extradite him when there will be more proof of the human trafficking and other illegal activities Bivolaru is guilty of.You know that building an water tight case takes time. I hope the Romanian Government takes time and gets Bivolaru to Justice. There are no communists involved in this so you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgen1013 (talk • contribs)
