Talk:Greg Bravo (Gary Scott)/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

--Fortheloveofhampsters 18:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)--Fortheloveofhampsters 18:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)from VfD:

  • Comment: The Vanilla Fudge article and associated articles certainly need some work, Carmine Appice for example went on to be one of the defining drummers of the second half of the 20th century. Details of the 1969 claims may be difficult to check, this was a culture heavily into mood affecting substances, professionalism was lax by today's standards and even the primary sources from the time often just repeat each other, let alone the current fansites. But the 1999 tour claim should be verifiable. No vote as yet. Andrewa 21:53, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There's already an exceedingly ugly article at Greg Bravo/Temp (the first version was a copyvio). I'd love to see THAT one go away. RickK 23:04, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • Re: RickK's comment . . . I read that article and do not understand why you called it "ugly". The only ugly thing is your attitude! On your own user info. page you start off by spewing profanity, and act like you are the god of Wikipedia! You need to get a life or something! Seriously, perhaps before one criticizes the writings of other posters, they should examine some of their own. Most on here do not display any real promise as professional writers, and I haven't see any Harvard or Yale degrees or even graduate degrees from the local state college touted on their user pages. Looks to be more like too many people with too much time on their hands. - Glen Roberts PS, the below user, although he also was critical of the author's writing style, is right to say there's lots of interesting content on the page. It is ostensible that the author (a) did not realize that the article should perhaps be in an encyclopedia format, and (b) could not change the original listed article as it was copyrighted (though permission to use the article seems to have been granted).
  • Comment: That's more evidence (not proof) that there's something to this story. Lots of interesting content around, anyway (but maybe not information). Still no vote. Andrewa 00:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Lots?!? Search for "greg bravo" kiss him goodbye or "gary scott" kiss him goodbye--one relevant hit[1], which has been regurgitated at Greg Bravo/Temp. Niteowlneils 18:58, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's lots of content in this page. Agree it's not a good article as is, even if accurate, but it contains a lot of interesting (if true) stuff. See talk:Greg Bravo/Temp. Andrewa 20:52, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment: The All Music Guide article on Vanilla Fudge confirms a reunited touring group with exactly that keyboard substitution. I can't find anything directly about Greg Bravo, though. Geogre 03:33, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment: There is a .com page for the subject in his own name that all the "detectives" on here seem to have missed! What kind of publication is this anyway? Found it by accident. Thought this was some sort of educational site, but it seems to be little more than a chat room. - Crazeehorse 13:04, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

Contents

Steam Involvement

GREG BRAVO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL "STEAM" GROUP NOR THE RECORD "KISS HIM GOODBYE" * THAT's AS FACT. HE MAY BE WITH A REORGANIZED STEAM ACT, BUT NEVER WAS AN ASSOCIATE OF THE REAL ORIGINAL GROUP.

Above comment from Beast47 moved from article to talk page.
A Google search on steam scott na na [2] will show that a Garret Scott was a member of Steam. Greg Bravo's website claims he used the stage name of Gary Scott while a memember of Steam. This Google cache link [3] implies that Garret Scott was not an actual person. Given the disconnect & lack of independent evidence, I have added a dispute tag. -- JLaTondre 15:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Beast47 is correct in that Greg Bravo had nothing to do with the original Steam band although he may have had something to do with a much later (attempted) reincarnation of a band with the same name. The lead singer for the song "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" on the original record called "Steam" was Gary DiCarlo. Gary DiCarlo used the name "Garrett Scott" for the album. Gary DiCarlo had written the song along with Paul Leka and Dale Freshuar in the early 60's and the song was recorded in 1969 on this album. Apparently, the three (DiCarlo, Leka and Freshuar) were not in a position to tour when "Na Na" became a hit. A makeshift band was put together (with a lead singer other than DiCarlo), but again this was not Greg Bravo.

It appears that Greg Bravo took a similar pseudonym (Gary Scott as opposed to Gary DiCarlo's pseudonym, Garrett Scott) when he put together his own band much later on. It seems to me that he intentionally created confusion to make his claim to the hit more believable. Who knows. Maybe someone out there has a better explanation for this.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fortheloveofhampsters (talk • contribs) .

Vote for deletion of "Greg Bravo (Gary Scott)"

This article is a verifiable hoax and likely a figment of Greg Bravo's imagination. Greg Bravo (born in 1955) would have been in early elementary school when the song was written and in junior high in 1969 when the song was recorded. The history of the song and the original Steam band is reported in the New York Daily News on August 29,2005 in the sports section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fortheloveofhampsters (talk • contribs) .

If you want to nominate it for deletion, you need to follow the deletion procedures. -- JLaTondre 11:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


FACT NOT OPINION HERE!

Well, well. I don’t know why I’m even lending credence to editing a site that can be edited by absolutely anyone, but as an industry professional (music productions) I just can’t ignore the fact that the articles do exist. Some of the below links that I am citing are actually blocked from editing because of the nonsense that exists on here. I will say that this is definitely an “interesting” concept, though.

Now to the point, Mr. LaTondre who does not state his background in music but feels free to express his “learned” opinion--obviously (NOT) gained through experience in the music industry--says that the artist on here should be deleted. Perhaps that is so, but his reasoning is laced with obvious emotion for some strange reason, and not reality. You see, there were and still are many artists, some who have achieved real stardom, who started at a very early age. Not just in junior high school but in GRAMMAR school. And many often had ADULT voices! Wikipedia’s own articles and thousands of outside links from trusted industry sources will verify this as a FACT and not OPINION.

Moreover, the record industry itself has been extremely dishonest since Day One, and everyone knows it. The fact that they have been sued by so many artists that were shafted over the years, the Attorneys General of a host of states, and the by the estates of the artists it is a FACT and NOT OPINION. It is difficult at best to understand what actually goes on behind the scenes in the murky world of the Music Industry--even when you are part of it! Many in what the industry calls the “Platinum Club” have done work and never got credit for it. Some, like Martha Wash, only received credit after fierce court battles! Also, it was very common in the early days of Pop (and sometimes still is) to make a record in the studio with an array of studio musicians but the groups weren’t real. Some sent out touring bands after achieving hit records and that is exactly what happened with groups like Steam. The Archies, The Cufflinks, Ohio Express, and many others had also done this in the past and some continue to this today.

Unfortunately, there are so many stories out there that have lost direction and meaning since those days that the stories have now become fiction or legend. As time goes on, memories fade and so does interest and relevance.

The "facts" printed in the so-called legitimate media rushing to make deadlines--and fast money--are largely regurgitated information that the writers find on the Web, other sources, or get directly from the record companies who themselves. Not to sound redundant, but the record companies themselves have been found to be dishonest crooks, and they have been paying tens of millions of dollars out to the artists or their estates over since the celebrated case of Frankie Lymon and Teenagers who died in 1968 at the age of 25 intestate, broke, and in near obscurity. The record companies have also been paying tens of millions of dollars in fines as a result of various state law suits for their crooked dealings. And that is only the tip of the iceburg!

Now on to other Pop artist articles that need revision.

- Rock_and_Soul_Patrol

Here are some references for all you Wiki-music-fans . . .

Little Stevie Wonder 12 Motown

Michel Jackson at age 10 and Stevie Wonder, at age 12 had chart-topping hits.


Shakira was signed to Sony records at age 13.


The Backstreet Boys started recording and performing in the band as early as ages 12 and 13.

Lee Ann Rimes (no article on this site about her yet) started recording at 11 and was already a chart topper in junior high school! Saw her on CMT and VH1 at age 14 and she was sensational!

There was also “Little” Peggy March who was at the top of the charts at age 15, and the list goes on and on and on! ===

And, oh, how about those studio bands like the Archies and the Cufflinks . . .


Surely Mr LaTondre has heard of these artists.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) .

If you're going to take that much time ranting, you should at least take the time to figure out who you should be ranting at. Fortheloveofhampsters is the one who made the statement about age & deletion. My comment was stating that he/she needs to follow the deletion procedures instead of vandalizing the article[8]. -- JLaTondre 00:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


Sorry, but I wasn't aware that I vandalized the article. I thought I had added my comment to the discussion page after seeing that the article had been vandalized yet another time by the removal of the dispute tag. After reading the preceding contribution by 205.188.116.72, I wonder whether voting for deletion (if I could figure out how to do that the right way) would result in any meaningful discussion of the truth of the article. I still maintain that the article is a hoax and the age of the singer at the time of the recording was offered as supporting, although admittedly circumstantial, evidence. The real singer, Mr. DeCarlo, was in his mid-twenties when the song was recorded. Signed by Fortheloveofhampsters

  • Regarding the subject of "vandalism," I am quite new to this but I personally do not consider what you did as vandalism. However, after reading the "discussion" and "history" pages of each article and user, I sense that there are some pretty "touchy" people on here that may consider it as such. As soon as I have more time, I intend to learn a bit more, but I will also stick to my own field. In that way, I am sure to know what I am talking about with authority and facts—not opinion.
    • Notwithstanding, there is no concrete evidence that Mr. DeCarlo (who like others in the field has ostensibly used other show biz names, as well) was the "real singer". In fact, there was no "real" band, either. It was a simply a group of studio musicians. "Steam" was assembled later and sent out to tour in order to promote the record after it was released on Fontana and hit the top of the charts quite to their surprise. Mercury (Fontana's parent label) thought that they might capitalize on the success of the initial recording, tried to assemble an actual album as quickly as they did the touring band, but used different musicians and vocalists that sounded terrible and the album they hastily recorded, flopped. Poetic justice?

Moreover, the song has been recorded, re-released, and WORN OUT many times under the "Fair Use" doctrine of US Copyright law by a myriad of artists on major and independent labels! All the versions that I have heard over the years on the radio and in other media were pretty good, too! So to define "real" you would first have to consider all the other artists that hit the pop charts with the song, as well. Most people do not even know who recorded the song or when it was first released, next released, last released, etc. Most don't even care, but they--like you--are entitled to their own opinions.

Next stop, maybe the Beatles? Beach Boys? Drifters? Ah, the Supremes! That is sure to be a very controversial subject! Especially since Mary is mad at Diana (though she may not public ally admit it) for shafting her during the last Supremes reunion that was canceled in mid-tour! Money disputes get the best of them, you know!

I'll make my way over there, eventually.

Signed,

Rock_and_Soul_Patrol

PS, Sorry to Mr. LaTondre for mistaking "him" as the one who put the deletion suggestion on here! But Mr. LaTondre, on your user page you do say that you use anonymous names on here on occasion, and given the recent activity on this article and the timing of the creation of the "Fortheloveofhampsters" user name, I hypothesized that it was you. Oooops! ? Okay, no more "ranting" at you! I'll save that for the cat! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.72 (talk • contribs) .

My user page does not say that. It says I used it before I signed up for an account. -- JLaTondre 11:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to clarify what we are debating. In my mind, the only question is the following: who was the lead singer of the original recording of "Na Na Hey Hey", recorded in 1969 and released on the Fontana label? If we can agree about what it is we are arguing about, the discussion can be much more to the point.--Fortheloveofhampsters 18:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer appears to be very elusive due to the following:

1. The initial record (recorded many other times of the years) was made by studio musicians.

2. "Steam" certainly was not a real band, initially.

3. It is extremely difficult to tell what happened nearly forty years ago unless you have a time machine! As one writer, above, put it, "this was a culture heavily into mood affecting substances, professionalism was lax by today's standards and even the primary sources from the time often just repeat each other, let alone the current fan sites".

4. Virtually no one in the music industry has ever been truthful -- let alone fair -- and many of the contributing artists deserving credit got none!

This whole discussion -- like many on here -- reads like the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First" routine! And truthfully -- nobody really cares about his "One Hit Wonder".

Since the subject of the article apparently fronts the "Steam" group which has a Federally registered trademark (there are others out there that play metal, fusion, and modern jazz) I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he definitely is the lead singer regardless of who originally recorded it so I am removing the hateful looking dispute tag that was put on here. The dispute I have is why are we debating a subject that plays grandma's music, and is something that started off purposely as FAKE in the first place? I think maybe we should say "na na good bye" and move on to more important subjects on here. There are over a million more! Right Daddio? (Is that how they used to talk waaaaaaaay back in the 60's?) Or, you can stay here until you learn how to spell "hamsters," and then I'll see you on Shakira's page! Do you devoted denizens of this article even know who she is? Get your Viagra out all you AARP members and assorted grampys -- you'll need it! Ha haaaa! --21CenturyKnox —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) .

I, for one, am interested in clearing this up. (And yes, I am a faithful AARP member for more years than I care to count.) I would also guess that Gary DeCarlo might want it cleared up. Finally, people who may want to hire Mr. Bravo as a performer might want to know what they can legally advertise. So again, let's clarify what the question is so that we can debate it fairly. Was the lead singer of "Na Na Hey Hey" on the original recording Gary DeCarlo (Garrett Scott) or Greg Bravo?--Fortheloveofhampsters 14:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


It was probably one or the other, likely DeCarlo (who was also one of the writers and producers of the song) was using an assumed name. I'm sure that if he cared he would be out there touring with the band over the years that has had many changes. Like so many other bands out there, the original line ups are not the same anymore due to illness, death, career limitations and disinterest. Today they amount to little more than tribute groups. Still, everyone who truly enjoys the music of yesteryear appreciates their efforts. When I saw them seven years ago, a "Tommy Scott" was out there singing out front. I'm glad to see that there are those out there keeping the music I loved alive! Perhaps the writers are also smiling because everytime the song is sold they get paid!

- Musicmaeister —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs)

21CenturyKnox indicates that Greg Bravo holds the copyright for the present day band Steam. Even if this were true, the "Greg Bravo (Gary Scott)" article maintains that Mr. Bravo was the lead singer of the original band when it recorded "Na Na Hey Hey". At least three different editors, including myself, have indicated that this is not true. Therefore, the article is still being disputed. Therefore, I have reverted the site back to the last version with the dispute tag. I have also asked that the page be protected (with the dispute tag) until the question of the article's truth can be ascertained. --Fortheloveofhampsters 20:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


The Article and Artist are both genuine!

It is very obvious that a few so-called "contributors" on this page may be one in the same person or are in league with one another to vandalize it. Their motivations for this are unclear, and it seems to be personal and not intellectual which is what the organisers of this site intended. Their repeated editing makes this very clear and is malicious and ill-spirited: neither of these is Wikipedia policy so I have also asked the administrators to protect this page.

In addition, I have personally seen this artist perform more than 30 years ago and know him to be an original member of at least the early touring group sent out by the record producers.

user:musicknight


Fortheloveofhampsters

I do not know the other editors who disagree with the Greg Bravo article. This is not a vendetta against whoever you are or Mr. Bravo himself. This is an argument that the article is incorrect in asserting that Mr. Bravo was the lead singer of "Na Na Hey Hey" when it was originally recorded as a single or in the first LP by the newly formed band "Steam". Neither was he a member of the original touring band. Furthermore, Gary DeCarlo, the real lead singer, used the pseudonym, Garrett Scott. (Garrett Scott was not another musician.) There are multiple sources on the internet that support the above facts. Most of these hits are credits to Gary DeCarlo as the songwriter for "Na Na Hey Hey". There is a first hand account by Austin Roberts (of "Rocky" fame) of the recording session at[9]. Other sites indicate the musicians involved in the touring band (Jay Babina and Tom Zuke on guitar, Mike Daniels on bass, Hank Schorz at the keyboards, Ray Corries on drums, and Bill Steer as lead vocalist.[10].


An internet search of ("Greg Bravo" + Steam) yields only a few relevant hits. There is a fan website, several accounts of Mr. Bravo performing at a Beatlefest in Chicago and in N.Y., a site entitled "Legends of Rock and Roll from New York", as well as the Wikipedia site. None of these give any first hand accounts of the recording of "Na Na Hey Hey". I could not find one site that gives the names of any of Greg Bravo's recordings. It looks like there are none.--Fortheloveofhampsters 02:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)