Talk:Greek love

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article seems a bit muddled! Since "Greek love" is a modern term for an ancient practice, it can hardly have been "corrupted" by modern usage. Also, I'm not sure what justification there is for maintaining this article in addition to Pederasty in ancient Greece. I suggest a merge.

DanB†DanD 21:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I also can't quite figure out what is being talked about, and where the term comes from. Unless someone comes up with a specific entity by this name, cultural or literary, which relates strictly to its modern sense and not to ancient practices, I also suggest it be redirected. I did not noticeanything new that is not already covered elsewhere. Maybe we should just have a mention of the term in the main pederasty article, if we can determine its history and context. Haiduc 00:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As I implied in my first note to the 'Pederasty' discussion, one intrudes upon established discussions (by assessors and editors of undoubted expertise) at one's peril. You will have seen my later comments on how I came to have written the 'Greek love' piece - as a newcomer to Wikipedia - and how, I believe, the title can be justified as a separate entry. I do take the point about a modern term being 'corrupted' by modern usage: you must surely know, however, of J Z Eglinton's 'Greek Love' which treats of the subject according to its original sense, and you may know of L Crompton's 'Byron and Greek Love' which (typically of many avowedly 'gay' writers) conflates pederasty and gay-homosexuality.
So, in that sense, the modern term has been 'corrupted' unless it was originally conceived as referring to adult relationships, in which case Eglinton's book is mis-titled. It may be politic to research the term more rigorously if entries are required to be validated in this way. Even as a popular term, it may still provide a gateway to 'enlightenment' for those for whom the word 'pederast' is vague or meaningless, though I suppose this could be provided by a search 'redirection'.
There remains the question of the content, which I agree is impressively and extensively treated in the 'Pederasty' article. The (brief) reference to modern-day boys' institutions in 'Greek Love' could perhaps find some relevant expansion in the larger article, though I see the application of the Platonic principle in modern education as difficult to argue, ironically when the heritage of Greek educational values is still acknowledged.
While the whole subject deserves impeccable scholarship, again I would suggest that the information can be of use and interest also to the general reader who may find longer articles tiresome to negotiate. Perhaps there is a policy on this? --Dominique 10:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Your point about Crompton and "Eglinton's" works is well taken. I will try to make some time and look for material on the term as such, rather than merely as a synonym for "pederasty". That raises the question of whether the term "boy love" should have a life of its own. A quick look led me to the article on Shōnen-ai, so you might say theres a precedent for your approach. Haiduc 11:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks. I too will give the question more thought and search-time. I was tempted to use the term 'boy-love' in the article, but felt the expression ambiguous and probably mis-leading. The Japanese variant opens yet another can of worms - all quite difficult to get a hold on!

--Dominique 12:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There used to be a boylove article, but it was changed to a redirect to Pedophile activism, where much of the material was duplicated. The Japanese term is not really a variant -- it refers specifically to a sub-genre of comic books, not a sexual practice. DanB†DanD 17:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
'Variant' in the sense of an offshoot of the main theme, (perhaps 'departure' would have been better?) and as I understand, not irrelevant to our search for clearer definitions of related expressions with however different shades of meaning. I must find out more about what 'behaviour' is practised in the comics!
Note that we have an article about the book, Greek Homosexuality, which covers most of this material. -Will Beback 19:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Prof Dover's book is outstanding within the field as an unequivocally objective study by a distinguished scholar content to interpret (historical data) rather than speculate or construe beyond known facts. Interestingly he was unhappy with the implied antithesis between hetero- and homosexuality, describing the latter as 'a subdivision of the quasi-sexual or pseudo-sexual'.
Haiduc, I agree that the article needs fleshing out: I have had a preliminary glance at the Oxford Hellenist movement (Wilde et al) and their identification with 'the love of the Greeks'. It would be nice to find that the term (Gk love) was coined in that context, given that it seems improbable that the term did not find its spontaneous way into their parlance. And they may not have been too precise about the age-related aspect...so it may be possible to find a separate existence for the term after all.
Also interesting French ref ::L'amour grec
--Dominique 15:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Strikes me that the phrase is also slang for anal sex in general, right? With "Greek active" as the top and "Greek passive" as the bottom. This usage doesn't refer to age--and maybe not the gender either--I remember seeing it in a heterosexual context once (trashy novel) but am not sure if this was ever common. In a gay context it used to be common in personal ads, contrasted with "French" for oral. As usual I have no sources for any of this!

Sorry to be tasteless, Dominique, but to justify the existence of this separate article we should be mostly about the usage of the phrase itself, not about the Greeks as a culture (covered elsewhere).

DanB†DanD 21:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

No, not tasteless, since we are trying to penetrate (excuse the expression) the term which refuses to be easily pigeon-holed! There was reference to this in the previous short version of this article, and (from memory) a comparison with other sexual practices, though the emphasis was on the 'Greek' cultural interpretation. (I seem to be having a problem accessing the early pages, so I can't comment on sources.) Note that some dictionary definitions of ‘pederasty’ are given as ‘sodomy with a boy’ or ‘ anal sex’ - not thought to be a Greek practice - so there's another sense in which the terms can relate, if for the wrong reasons. There are differences, however, and Haiduc hit the nail on the head with his introduction of 'euphemism', and as you see, I am interested in tracing usage and possibly origin of the term in the context of the Oxbridge elite. It seems obvious that such a felicitous expression could be arrived at quite naturally among educated homosexual groups anywhere, so it may be hard to pinpoint a specific place, time or person. One might even be tempted to explore the Florentine Renaissance! One other point, 'Greek Love' is a non-technical expression requiring interpretation, while 'pederasty' (pederastia) has precise etymological roots, (and certainly for the Greeks had a specific meaning) though as we see, the latter term can be 'hijacked' to mean something else. In the Victorian context, Gk love would refer to undefined male relations which were criminalised across the board, but for that very reason, the pederastic interpretation would probably be aired within private circles as freely as that of adult-only relations, and possibly more - because of the Classical reference. So far, I have found one clear source for a conscious use of the term i.e. J Addington Symonds' 'A Problem in Greek ethics' who writes:
"In treating of this unique product of their civilisation I shall use the terms Greek Love, understanding thereby a passionate and enthusiastic attachment subsisting between man and youth, recognised by society and protected by opinion, which, though it was not free from sensuality, did not degenerate into mere licentiousness."
and later: "It has frequently occurred to my mind that the mixed type of paiderastia which I have named Greek Love took its origin in Doris." My italics - the author refers to differences among different city-states. The following link is to a review of Neil McKenna’s ‘The secret life of Oscar Wilde’ which highlights Wilde’s friendship for Symonds, and others[1]. Will have to conclude at this point.
--Dominique 17:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Paying attention

Dan, no one will have any idea about the reason for your objection if you do not comment on it here. Haiduc 21:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Largely it's the OR of applying the phrase to various cultures without anyone having actually used the phrase "Greek love" about those cultures.
  • Also, though this may seem counter-intuitive, it's unsourced that the general description of Greek sexual practices is in fact what people mean or meant by the phrase "Greek love" -- as I've said before, it's a modern phrase, and my impression is that it was used mostly by modern British people for their own culture's sexual practices which they modelled or wished to model on their idealized/demonized conception of the classical past -- so a description of Greek historical practices may not in fact match the usage of the phrase.
  • So, at the moment the article pretty much consists of POV/OR, while not actually addressing the topic of what notable sources have used the phrase and what they meant by it.
  • Also, describing pederasty as having a "capacity for good" might be a teeny bit POV. Might be. Possibly.

DanB†DanD 21:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Now that I see that list it makes me think he should have started it with Plato. Probably it should be cited better, I for one would have preferred the names of the works, at least. But that criticism is probably valid for the whole piece. Let's hope the original poster decides to finish what he started. Haiduc 21:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for my absence. I fully intend to return to the subject which certainly deserves more work. I shall take your comments above on board: the 'capacity for good' angle is (I confess) probably POV. My intention is to refer further to J A Symonds whose use of the term 'Greek Love' is significant, and to the Oxford Hellenist movement. Please do not hesitate to address me personally on these issues. Dominique 21:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You might want to mine the articles in Category:Victorian pederasty. Haiduc 21:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you and for the picture which tunes in well with the 'tasteful' tone of the article (so far). The Victorian reference may well tune in well with future attempts at finding original usage of the term, Greek Love. Re-reading the early history of this article (then a 'stub') I note the use of 'euphemism' which was fortuitously revived at your hands, thus providing a solution to the problem of introducing the term, Greek Love, which appears (now) to have a wider frame of reference than is implied by the term 'pederasty'. Re the picture - which is entirely appropriate - I had already come across an illustration in a French article entitled 'L'Amour grec et la Muse garconniere' which to my mind perfectly and provocatively (while still reflecting 'le bon gout')illustrates the expression of this 'grande emotion', a classically restrained Romanticism.

You will almost certainly know this: I wondered whether such a representation would over-step the boundaries of Wikipedia? (I do not want to use this here) http://bcs.fltr.ucl.ac.be/fe/10/MUSE/Avantpropos.htm#Lamour%20grec%20et%20la%20Muse%20gar%C3%A7onni%C3%A8re Dominique 22:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Which picture? Jean Broc? Do you know Cory's "An Invocation"? It begins "I never prayed for dryads to haunt the woods again / More welcome were the presence of hungering, thirsting men . . ." and ends with "Now lift the lid a moment: now, Dorian shepherd, speak: Two minds shall flow together, the English and the Greek." I am curious to see where you will go with this article, and will offer bricks or mortar as I come across them; feel free to discard them if they do not fit. Haiduc 22:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hyakinthos. Cory...just discovered he wrote the Eton Boating song! I appreciate your encouragement, and will welcome your bricks and mortar. An elusive subject, and not to be hurried.

Dominique 00:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is here:
The Death of Hyacinthos, by Jean Broc
The Death of Hyacinthos, by Jean Broc
Haiduc 03:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. I had an incomplete title, but saw H. 'swooning' rather than dying (el amor y la muerte!). I am not entirely comfortable with the insertion of Wilde into the list of writers until the 'pederasty' theme is widened. He may well fit once I have explored the Hellenist idea and its relationship to the burgeoning 'homosexual' consciousness of the period, so he can stay there pro tem. I sense at this point that usage of the 'Greek Love' expression was evolved out of confusion and the excitement of (clandestine) sexual politics which embraced quite different conceptions or outlooks among its adherents. In any case, Wilde's preferences for 'rough trade' and young adult companions places him outside the strictly 'pederast' group. Gide, who of course had met Wilde (N. Africa) had a much clearer view of his own sexuality, and who wrote very clearly about 'pederasts' and 'sodomites' in an extraordinary - for the time - exposition of homosexual 'types'. Both men are sometimes referred to as early 'gay' champions or icons, a description which Wilde would have been flattered to acknowledge, but which Gide would have disowned with compelling, classical lucidity. Dominique 18:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It is significant that Kaylor, in his Secreted Desires, includes Wilde among the Uranians. He implies a preexisting bias which had categorized the inspired pederasts (like Wilde and Hopkins) as homosexual and reserved the "Uranian" tag for the more forgettably pedestrian poets. Wilde's essential "Greekness" is as clear from his love life (if you are not a stickler for mathematical precision as the main considerent) as it is from his famous statement in the dock which predicates a difference in age as the key to such relationships. Much of his rough trade would, at best, have been in secondary school in our days. And unless I am mistaken he was not a sodomite in bed, alike to Gide, that "pope of a religion to which he did not belong" according to Peyrefitte. And of course we all know what OW and Bosie were doing with Gide in Africa. O, saisons! Haiduc 22:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
There are, however, myriad qualifications in Kaylor's impressive thesis, even apparent contradictions - this from a first, (selective) intensive reading - for instance his reference to Neil McKenna's position favouring Wilde as an 'heroic sodomite', an emphasis on 'androphilic' Uranism, in spite of McK's documentation of Wilde's boyish associates. (This is a criticism of McK's scholarship while accepting the "biography should certainly be considered in any holistic engagement of Wilde’s eroticism".) Kaylor sees Wilde as a flamboyant, decadent 'destroyer' in contrast to the disciplined, sublimated figures of the more recognisably Hellenist 'educators'.

"These two Uranian paths — the conciliatory and the dissident — are the concern of the present volume, though I will focus primarily on the more ‘elevated’, conciliatory path taken by Pater and Hopkins." In terms of 'Greekness', who wins the prize? There are, however, references to 'Greek Love', and I will be seeking out which, if any, can be helpful.

I found one useful description (of 'Greek Love') as being essentially 'assymetric' - not just in terms of age - so that the 'traditional pederasty' concept may still have a life of its own. Certainly, I don't see Wilde as a pederast in the Greek sense (of the 'beardless boy' as object), though he undoubtedly qualifies as a 'Uranian' for whom 'boy' apparently carries some age flexibility as in the case of Bosie. As you see, I am still struggling to get a hold of this subject which suffers from overlapping terminology, and the inevitable baggage of 'homosexual' culture and our modern obsession with identity labelling. Incidentally, for me 'boy-love' properly stated cannot be a 'gay' issue, so maybe I am 'a stickler for mathematical precision...'!

Dominique 23:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Terminology is the rock this survey will founder on. Is the boy in "boy love" eleven or sixteen? Was Wilde an androphile when he slept with the 17 y/o Ross, who at twenty four could still pass for sixteen? Is his fling with Bosie (by all appearances a confirmed pederast himself who merely humored OW's desire for his own selfish ends) egalitarian? Bosie, who never grew up, the eternal puer vis-a-vis a Wilde both visionary and profound? It may turn out that Greekness is a state of mind rather than an accounting of years, which may be why it was borrowed by both pederasts and androphiles. And perhaps it was a grasp for legitimacy, just like egalitarian pronouncements and the logos of penetration and dominance are a grasp (gasp?) for legitimacy today. Perhaps it will turn out that to be Greek one merely had to claim membership. Asymmetry is a good way to put it, if so can we extend Greekness to the daddy/boy leather scene? Haiduc 01:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about that! I have just noticed that a chunk was removed from the article 1 Jan by an anonymous contributor (warned about vandalism). The piece was about modern boys' institutions and their teachers/coaches: I noticed the gap only because I was beginning to think about linking in a reference to the Uranists (as discussed), and the repressive forces at work then and now. I shall probably not re-instate it exactly, since the tentative comparison with the Platonic educational ideal was slightly POV. Was the 'remover' acting out of moral concern, I wonder? I believe, however, that the Greek ideal must still be with us, if it was ever a natural 'virtue' or...! Did you notice the change, by the way? Dominique 23:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I had not noticed the deletion, and I would certainly not bend with the remover to remove. Haiduc 03:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't think you had anything to do with it. I am now 'on track' and have some interesting sources - Kaylor has been invaluable, and I shall be interested to know your reactions once I have something concrete to contribute. My summary position will however preserve the 'educational' force of pederasty, and hold 'Greek Love' to account for all the ambiguities! One seeks to find a safe anchorage in turbulent waters. Dominique 11:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It was in my mind to add Breen to the sources, mainly because the title alone gives credence to the usage of our (much-debated) term. I left him out before, since I felt chary about referring obviously apologist material, and also because of his 'notoriety' (which in itself does not invalidate the arguments proffered). But I see the WP article on Breen suggests his collaborator, Warren Johansson, may have done most of the work! Of course, Gide (and others) can be seen as an apologist, but the quality of the thought (and writing) is immense and by no means mono-thematic. Percy qualifies since the book is scholarly and (on the whole) detached, unlike the contributions by other avowedly 'gay' writers, Crompton among them. I may, however, concede the latter as a reference, and not just because of the title link - from his Byron book. Dominique 14:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll bite. What is his Byron book? Haiduc 17:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Mentioned above (12 October 06) 'Byron and Greek Love - Homophobia in 19th Century England' where the first chapter, entitled 'Georgian Homophobia', hardly mentions Byron in 50 pages and is peppered with expressions such as 'homosexuality', bisexuality, effeminacy, and even 'gay', though in the introduction to the book the author ventures "if 'homosexual' and 'gay' are both words that would have puzzled Byron's contemporaries, the expression, Greek Love, would have been intelligible to them". In view of the general practice (among WP contributors here) of citing distasteful and apologist sources - avoided by scholars of merit e.g. Kenneth Dover - I don't feel at all sure about including Breen and Crompton in spite of the resonance of their titles. Dominique 01:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Some critics find Dover distasteful. As for "apologist," you may be hard pressed to find any works on Greek love which are not to some degree apologist. Haiduc 00:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I put it rather too strongly (late-night logic), but Dover's study is rigorous and emotionally detached in spite of his view of 'homosexual' as 'pseudo-sexual', a position which his (no doubt apologist) critics jumped on. For this reason alone, his interest in the subject stands apart from the rest. My main gripe with Crompton is conflation of categories, which is however still germane to our examination of Greek Love, since I am contemplating that ambiguities among the Uranists may well have contributed to the 'weakening' of the term. (Kaylor provides some interesting refs) So, I am proceeding carefully, though a draft is taking shape. This dialogue is extremely useful, by the way, since I am anxious to 'test the waters'. Dover of course was not happy with the antithesis of the terms, homo- and hetero-sexual. Pederasty has been seen by some commentators (don't ask me whom!) as the 'natural face of male love' since its practitioners or non-practising 'apologists' are quite frequently capable (and desirous) of normal sexual relationships (with women), the parallel attraction of boys being a function of their 'natural' androgyny apart from the nature of male adolescent sexuality and the (now misunderstood or neglected) need to identify with adult male role-models. Modern homosexual-consciousness seems to have emerged as a result of the various 'labelling' forces - including medical - which developed in the 19th and early 20th centuries, apart from the marginal literary influence of the Uranists and others. From this perspective, 'gay' culture can be seen as an artificial category because of the declared antithesis to normal sexual practice and institutions, a movement perhaps inevitably born out of repression and rebellion as much as anything else. One can only wonder what effect a 'legalisation of pederasty' would have on the male sexual psyche and the balance of sexual practice. Fantasyland, no doubt! Dominique 14:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You have put your finger on it

But pederasty is legal. What tells me that we still live in times of "nameless love" is precisely that misapprehension, that pederasty is "illegal." That is well worth investigating, since in most civilized countries pederasty is very legal indeed. As you well know, the age of consent is set in the mid to low teens throughout much of the world. So that what represses pederasty now is no longer its former illegality, but something else.

Dover emotionally detached? I'll say! "Emotionally stunted" might be a better phrasing. Let's grant him that his was a heterosexual's 1970s-type view, one which excluded later materials which illuminate the emotional and passionate side of the relationship. By the same token (his) we might well describe marriage as a ritual designed to facilitate forceful vaginal penetration.

And as for artificial categories, it was not homosexuality that was invented one hundred years ago. Homosexuality has been around since before Sumer. It is the creation of heterosexuality that we have to honor. Before it, to what sane man would it have ever occurred that youths were not beautiful?! The whole moral argument was not that one should not touch that which is repulsive. What is virtuous about that? It was that one should abstain from what is attractive, because it is a sin and we are God-fearing people rather than mindless beasts or pagans, who do as they please. Haiduc 16:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I seem to have touched a nerve....but I thought the child abuse industry was alive and well, and spreading - from Western countries - across the globe. Dominique 21:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
What has that to do with legal and legitimate homosexual relations between individuals who have come of age?! Haiduc 23:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
"Precisely that the 'industrialists' in question would nevertheless consider many of your 'legal' relationships to be well within their territory!" - I cannot claim authorship of this pertinent reply Dominique 19:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Opinions and law are two very different matters. Perhaps all this indicates that an excursion exploring the evolution of societal attitudes towards Greek love after its recent legalization may be in order here. Whereas in the past the obstacles were mainly legal, now it appears that internalized obstacles may stand in the way of such relationships even where permitted by law. But sources would have to be found. Inexplicably, research is skimpy. Haiduc 23:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Society certainly creates obstacles, though paradoxically cultures in which pederasty is endemic e.g. the Middle East, legislate against it. Other more liberal societies such as Buddhist Thailand - an erstwhile Mecca for boy-lovers and molesters - have only recently tightened the law as a result of Western moralist pressure, the 15 year age of consent being confounded by a 'kidnapping' clause, which effectively 'protects' boys under 18. The Thais themselves seem to be exempt from this law. As you will know, there are elsewhere exemptions applying to low consent ages: particular age difference of partners, professional (educational) relationship and so on. The Greek ideal is remote, and perhaps is no longer relevant - not a difficult case to argue after 2000 years! It is no wonder that the Uranists (whom we mustn't forget) were a mixed-up lot and that their representatives a century and a half later are saddled with the same problems of identity, which as we have seen is not so easily subsumed under the 'gay rights' umbrella. All this, however, is grist to the mill of Greek Love, and its practical definition in the face of contradiction and shifting boundaries, but if I am to attend to that commitment, our fascinating excursions will have to be postponed! Dominique 20:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

By all means attend. However, let me suggest to you that the adoption of the term in question was not only a matter of convenience but a matter of the heart, as apparently our Uranian friends discovered within themselves feelings analogous to those reflected in the ancient texts. So the relevance of the two thousand year old tradition may be as immediate as that of shipwrecked Odysseus' gesture of covering his nakedness with a branch upon encountering the local girls on their outing. Haiduc 03:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Matter of the heart, yes, absolutely! An ounce of feeling is worth a ton of sterile discussion - not ours, I hasten to add. But those hardy and tragic souls who have passed the torch of Olympus down the centuries are heroes as yet unsung. My reckoning is that the light may have to travel another two thousand years before it is perceived in the wider world - just a moment in time, after all.Dominique 10:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] OFFENSIVE

Not all greeks are homosexual, This article is biased and should thus be deleted. New references acknowledged. Will have to temporarily suspend my further input due to overseas travelAniChai 01:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC).

Editing cannot take place on an emotional basis. Material is properly sourced and article makes no assumptions about the sexual preferences of "all Greeks", for which no proper data are available anyway. Haiduc 10:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The above strike-out is of a comment I made on 26 March 2007, which appears to have been adopted by another user. The article seems to have lost its way: the original purpose, as I recall, was to find application of the term Greek love in the modern world without however losing its historical perspective. We had reached the point of considering the Oxford Uranists and their identification with 'pederasty' as an ideal in the context of relationships which were more often androphilic. J A Symonds actually used the term (GL), but in the ancient sense. To recover the thread may require large-scale deletion. Dominique 23:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addressing the claim that this entry is "Redundant" and "Unencyclopedic"

I consider my alterations today to be sufficient to at least begin addressing the claim that this entry on "Greek Love" is "Redundant with other articles on the topic, kind of essay." I would assert instead that the major reason for keeping this entry resides in the fact that it provides – as an encyclopedia should – a decent gloss for a term that might cause some degree of puzzlement and confusion if encountered for the first time in a scholarly or more general cultural context. Besides, it is easy to claim that an entry is "unencyclopedic and should be deleted," rather than to attempt to alter and improve it, as I have here attempted. Given these comments and my alterations of the entry, I have removed the proposal that it be deleted. Welland R 14:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep the capitalised "Greek Love" if you prefer, but then the title of the article should be changed to match (or else, leave the word in lower case).
OK, I agree. It is clear that all of the scholars quoted do not capitalize "love," so I guess that is the better alternative. I will make the change. Welland R 18:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The subject in focus

The material I have added has been simmering for some time. There was much debate on the talk pages on how to deal with a subject which fell under the title of a 'figure of speech', though the historical import was clear enough. It then became essential to justify the article as a separate entry i.e. from Greek pederasty, which was done (a) by unravelling the threads connecting the Ancients with modern times and (b) by highlighting the pedagogical aspect of Greek relationships as well as the philosophical and aesthetic, not necessarily associated with 'pederasty' as a basic sexual practice. Here, the Uranians came to my aid! I was interested to find that the article had already been expanded, and particularly encouraged by the decision to retain it. My researches uncovered interesting complications with respect to modern sexual politics, hardly surprising in a field which attracts more opprobrium than impartial evaluation or even merely tolerance.

It is a big subject - as it has turned out - and I have not attempted to round it off or suggest a conclusion is imminent: hence the Further Research content. I have avoided a too easy acceptance of the ancillary meaning of Greek love as being a gloss for male homosexual non-pederastic behaviour, or if so whether such a populist slant warrants much space beyond the initial paragraph. Clearly more work is desirable in probing the term in a contemporary context. The subject does not lend itself to encyclopedic treatment because of the ambiguities - incl terminology - which surround it, and by the paucity of reliable research material and scholarship.

It may be that some further adjustment or re-balancing is needed following the significant expansion of the original text. I have made a slight extension of the first Symonds quote, mainly because of the felicitous concluding phrase. Some tidying up and referencing is required (and perhaps a footnote or two) which I shall attempt at least to begin. Dominique 21:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments

I have been re-reading the article to help clarify my own understanding of what specifically we should focus on here. In the process, I have come across this sentence: "Shelley did however share the prejudices of his age . . ." At the risk of seeming naive - what exactly were those "prejudices"? Haiduc 23:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Apart from what Shelley actually wrote, I relied to some extent on Crompton's interpretation that the discourse was 'distinctly marked by anti-homosexual bias'. Indeed, I wanted to append a foot-note (but at the time of writing, I was not sure how to achieve that technically-speaking - especially as the Notes section was devoted to book references) , which expanded on what Crompton describes as 'neo-Tyrianism', an interpretation of Greek Love which denied or minimized its physical side referring particularly to the writings of Archbishop Potter (17th century) and specifically his 'Antiquities of Greece' in which there is a chapter "On their Love of Boys" which enthuses about 'this excellent passion'! Certainly there is no doubt that Shelley responded to the 'aesthetic ideal of Greek pederasty' (Nathaniel Brown 'Sexuality & Feminism in Shelley')- cf Voltaire's view of GL as 'friendship'. Crompton confirms his view that 'S. still shared many of the prejudices of Regency England with respect to physical relations' - by his circumlocution, expressed revulsion to homosexual acts, or his silence on the subject of homosexual oppression - while acknowledging his challenge to the 'taboo of silence on the subject of Greek love.' Of course, there could be an element of fear or discretion behind much of the conventional language S. employed, but the view seems to be that S. was in love with the idea and not the practice, and this is clear in the Discourse.
In terms of 'focus', I intend to consider next the 'gay' scholars - which include Crompton - and the general approach of merging distinctions within the 'field' of male sexual relations, which can lead to a vitiation of practice, thought and historical integrity. I have recently come across some curious assumptions by the vogue scholar, James Davidson, from whom however I filched the expression, 'male bonding' as a way of introducing our subject! (A recent TV program on Athenian society and politics). Dominique 23:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Does Crompton classify Plato, Lycurgus, Aesop and Aeschines too as neo-Tyrians? Haiduc 23:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC) I do not mean to be coy. Can you indicate where Crompton comes up with this theory? I have checked his "H & Civ" and see nothing in the index (maybe he was embarrassed to point to it?). It strikes me that it is not a "neo" anything but rather an accurate reading of the Greeks themselves. It would be interesting to pursue this further, and to examine to what extent a rejection of anal coition was a stock feature of Greek Love in Victorian England. Last I checked, OB was kicked out of Eton for a kiss (and not a Greek one, either) and Oscar Wilde avoided it, as did Bosie, as did Gide. Haiduc 00:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that the source to be consulted for this, rather than Crompton, is John Lauritsen, "Hellenism and Homoeroticism in Shelley and His Circle", Same-Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West / Journal of Homosexuality, Vol. 49, Issue 3/4 (2005), pgs. 357-76. Unfortunately, at present, I am away from a library that would have a copy of the JH, so I cannot supply the materials myself. Welland R 12:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, do you know Richard Sha's essay 'Halperin and Shelley on the Otherness of Ancient Greek Sexuality'[2] which may answer the questions raised? (see from para #30 follg, and also the Notes). My source was Crompton's Byron book, which I see others have found 'unreliable' or 'misleading'. Interestingly Sha comments - with ref to 'H. & Civ' - that:
'Crompton's admirably comprehensive study would have been further strengthened had he addressed arguments like Halperin's that are wary of using the concepts of "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" to describe sex in Ancient Greece.' Against such a backdrop, Shelley's sexual reservations may be easier to rationalize! Dominique 00:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks all. I am working my way through Sha, who should be fined for overuse of sesquipedalian words. As for "rationalizing," I beg to differ. It is pretty clear that the construction of same-sex relations has varied, with anal relations sometimes being accepted and other times rejected. Thus any argument presuming them to be an essential part of male homosexual relations is on its face a polemic attempting to essentialize such relations. But I would argue that Shelley judged them irrelevant to Greek love, which essentializes intoxication with male beauty (I'll have to see what Lauritsen says about that). Others have argued that it is secondary to homosexuality in general, and anything but a male homosexual act (I know that Martial disagrees), but that may be off topic here. Haiduc 18:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Your thinking I would judge to be very much ‘on topic’ if we can be confident (informed) enough to argue (document) a case for Greek Love as essentially ‘non-penetrative’ - as distinct from other forms of pederasty (not to mention adult male love) – this neatly tying in with the ‘aesthetics’ of Shelley and the pederastic educator-philosophers (Uranians), Renaissance artists (& perhaps even Shakespeare) and other illustrious links in the historic chain. I don’t think there is too much risk of ‘re-defining’ the term since, as we were aware from the outset, GL can be seen as specific (to Greece), a beacon to ‘the like-minded’ through the ages, as well as an imprecise or metaphorical usage across the board (of male relations). The last I view as a ‘corruption’ of the term, or a means by which – if I were minded to introduce a further polemic into an already controversial theme - the modern ‘gay movement’ can identify with the noble and the good and claim kinship! I think you may have a case for Shelley’s judgement of ‘abominable practices’ as being irrelevant to GL even if such elevation is really by default. As to ‘secondary to homosexuality in general’, the distinctness implied by such a phrase, was never in doubt. I was interested to find the references (in Kaylor) rejecting ‘homosexual’ as being unsuitable usage, which ironically is not so distant from Shelley’s position – given his abhorrence of ‘unnatural vice’ - of the ‘natural’ allurements of ‘the Ganymede’ or Bacchus and the ‘natural’ orgasmic release of Greek lovers. So maybe more can be drawn from Shelley than the current brief mention in the article. Sha moves to unravel a few knots, in spite of his somewhat turbid terminology. I shall be interested to know more if you find Lauritsen helpful.Dominique 22:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
See Intercrural sex for some interesting terms (eg. "Oxford style") and discussion. Also I understand that "English method" is another eloquent synonym. Haiduc 00:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the reference, and for your headings. One or two sentences may have to be changed, but of course more text will be generated as the material becomes available. I have never heard of "Oxford Style", however. I am awaiting despatch of Shelley's 'Discourse' (as well as related papers by Lauritsen & Davidson from the British Library) from which a quotation on 'practice' might well serve this article. If you have time, meanwhile, I would be grateful for your reaction to the following quotations from Davidson's review of Alan Bray's 'The Friend'[3] which appear stylistic and generalised rather than scholarly, possibly by intention in this context:
"The sex-obsessed historians of sexuality, by contrast, seem now to have been writing perverse histories, separating the sodomitical relationships of ancient Greek men, for instance, from the passionate pairings of Sappho’s Lesbos or the relationship of Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad, whose (apparently) non-sodomitical same-sex love was deleted from the history of ‘Greek homosexuality’ by Kenneth Dover and David Halperin, as if the fact that a spectacularly homosexualising culture produced some of the most spectacular (but non-sodomitical) lesbian love poetry and has a spectacular (but non-sodomitical) homosexual relationship at the centre of its foundational epic is simply a rather amazing coincidence." and also:
"We have a full description of how the Cretans went about these things. Announced at least three days in advance, there was a public tug-of-war over the prospective boy (usually assumed, for various reasons, to be in his late teens), with the boy’s fan-club (‘the friends’) on one side and the suitor on the other, and much anxiety about the appropriateness of the match..." (Percy says the boy's age was 12). Dominique 23:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)