Talk:Greek Struggle for Macedonia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece. | ||||||
| If you would like to participate, you can improve Greek Struggle for Macedonia, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ. | |||||||
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the quality scale. (comments) | ||||||
| ??? | This article has not yet been prioritized. | ||||||
|
|||||||
 |
This article has been automatically assessed as Stub-Class by WikiProject Greece because it uses a stub template.
|
 |
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the the participants page if you would like to get involved. Happy editing! |
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. |
| Low | This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. |
 |
edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for Greek Struggle for Macedonia: |
|---|---|
|
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category |
|
[edit] Comments
[edit] Satev and company
How to you translate Pavel Satev's groups, βαρκάρηδες, in English? Etz Haim 11:43, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Kapnisma - βαρκάρηδες means men on boat , but right now I have no knowledge about Pavel Satev's groups.I look in some sources and I write to you as soon as I find something
Since you study history and you live in Thessaloniki too, I was told that some stuff about Satev and the anarchist uprising of "βαρκάρηδες" are included in a book written by Yannis Megas. I was also told that Megas does not include the full story with all the details.
The bank building, formerly the Abbot mansion that one of the Abbots lost in gambling, became the Ottoman Bank, and then it was blown up by the anarchists, and only the front facade remained erect! From the facade it was reconstructed. Eventually it became IKA (Social Insurance Foundation) and now it's the music school on Fragon street, above Ladadika. Etz Haim
[edit] Central-Southern Macedonia
Pls, explain what you mean by Central - Ohrid, Prilep, Bitola, Melnik, Radovish, Petrich, Nevrokop had clearly Bulgarian predominance, and many districts in the south were also - f.ex. Kukush (Kilkis), Lerin (Florina) and Demirhisar (I can't remember the Greek name) had clearly an Exarchist majority. If we take the present-day Greek Macedonia as Southern Macedonia (this is my definition), than you would have at least some right in saying this - but not for central Macedonia. VMORO 14:57, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)~
Meleniko,Florina and Monastiri had Exarchist majority?You must be joking!By the term central macedonia I mean the areas of Florina,Kastoria,Kozani,Kilkis,Monastiri,Ochrida,Doirani,Serres and Drama-clearly Patriarchist areas apart Kilkis (Kukush).North I consider Pirin Macedonia and the areas north of Monastiri.62.103.234.106 05:01, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You cannot calssify Kastoria, Kozani, Serres and Drama as central Macedonia, they were clearly in southern Macedonia. And yes, Lerin, Bitola, Ohrid and Doiran were clearly with Exarchist majority. VMORO 12:18, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Gemidzii - Macedonian idealists
You can translate Gemidzii (from an archaic name for a large boat) as boatsmen - a clear reference to one of the main targets of the attack, the French vessel 'Guadalquivir'. Pavel Satev went to become one of the ministers of the first Macedonian government in 1944.
To be executed only several years afterwards as a "Bulgarian propagandist". "Way to go", Macedonian "brothers". But please, follow this link to the website of the Ottoman bank to learn more about the terrorist act [1] VMORO 21:08, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Neutral Wikipedia???
Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia
JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
I sterbinski 13:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Sterbinski, I read what you had to say, I don't agree with it, but that's just my opinion. Just a few comments. Kemal Ataturk was born in Thessaloniki, not in Bitola as you say. I would really like to see the birth certificate you are talking about. Also, Yugoslavia was not particularly stronger than Greece militarily and in any case thank you for not invading because you were allied with the Soviet Union and we with NATO and therefore you would have precipitated World War III. Another thing I would like to comment on is the story about Mexico. The Mayans disappeared. They became Mexican. The Greek-Macedonians did not, they remained Greek. The Spanish did not try to rename themselves as Mayans, the Slavs however did. Is it true that you and a Bulgarian can have a conversation? It's true because your language is a Bulgarian dialect. Please leave the stories about grandfathers aside. I also have a grandfather from the same period whose experiences differ quite a lot from yours. Anyway, Wikipedia is not a forum so I'll stop here. Kalambaki2 01:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok - so let me get this straight - your grandfather was born 8 years after Delchev was killed and yet your grandfather knew him? When you make stuff up at least try to make it sound plausible. The millions and millions of brave Macedonians fending off the Empire of Evil (i.e. Bulgaria) is just plain silly. The Greek's comment up above is sadly true. And your hate of the evil mongol (I thought that was amusing too) archenemies-of-everything-good-in-this-world Bulgarians is sad, because those same people fought and died so that even the likes of you can be free, and that the Macedonian issue would not fall into obscurity (like it did for Basques or Kurds or...etc.) and that today there is a free Macedonian country.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.212.43 (talk • contribs)
[edit] ABOUT KNIGITE.ABV.BG
AKeckarov, although the search in Google for Silyanov does not provide any links, I will take your word for it that this historian does/did in fact exist. That is not the objection I have. The objection is that the above site is a propaganda site. You can see this from its index page [2]. The banner MACEDONIA, THE TRUTH IS HERE implies that the Bulgarian POV is the correct one and that the "other side" (in this case the Greeks) are lying. If this is not POV then what is? Additionally, your links are in Bulgarian and this is the English Wikipedia. The name of the article is Greek struggle for Macedonia. It talks about what Greek intentions were at a time when the area of Macedonia was in turmoil, as the Ottomans were slowly losing control. The Bulgarian point of view can very easily be expressed by creating an article "Bulgarian struggle for Macedonia" where you can add all the information and links you have. We can then link the two articles so that whoever enters them can see both sides of the story and decide. I believe this is the best solution to our situation. Kalambaki2 20:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Kalambaki2, Hristo Siljanov (Silyanov, in bulgarian - Христо Силянов) was a Bulgarian historian (his mother was a Greek from Konstantinopole), who wrote in 30-, 40- years of XX century about Macedonia. His book "The Liberation Struggles in Macedonia"(I-1933, II - 1943) is a capital book in these themes in Bulgaria. He used memoirs of the contemporaries and many documents, he used and many greek autours - Stamatis Raptis, P. Delta etc. Wherever published his book it is a significant part of Bulgarian part of historiography. The other question is what are you prove with one banner in KNIGITE.ABV.BG. This banner didn't prove that KNIGITE.ABV.BG is propaganda site. I really didn't undestand whу it necessеrу to create an other article to express Bulgarian point of view? Where is NPOV? Regards, --AKeckarov 14:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, how about "Bulgarian view on Greek intentions in Macedonia" instead of "Military Greek Propaganda"? In a dispute, propaganda never comes only from one side. I hope you realise. Tell me your opinion on changing the title of the links. Kalambaki2 17:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that this is a good solution. Ευχαριστο! --AKeckarov 18:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Greek involvement prior to 1903-4
It is generally considered that Greek military/guerilla involvement began after the Ilinden revolution. However, this is not very precise, at least in my opinion. Prior to 1903 there were the so called Stavraetoi, whose actions actually contributed to the explosion of the 1897 war. Macedonia was a prioroty for the Greek national interests at least since the Saint Stephano treaty. Thus, although this article is about the "Macedonian Struggle", which indeed lasted from 1904 to 1908 i think it might be a good idea to say a few things about greek military, economic and educational involvement prior to 1903-4.--Greece666 22:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some questions
a) Im not quite sure that greek guerilla bands were composed mostly of locals as is stated in the article. To what i know most of them came from Crete (Sfakia) and Southern Peloponnese (Mani). b)about the Zagorichani massacre: Im not sure whether the name "Bulgarians" is the best description. It might be more neutral to describe them as exarchists or macedonian peasants. c)about Penelope delta and the Mystika toy Valtoy. Well, i think it should be added that the book depicts greek fighters in a far too idealized way and it clearly distorts historical events. its a good literature book, but since it is mentioned in a history article i think it might be better to clarify that it is by no means a history book. d) regarding the consequences of the macedonian struggle. in my point of view the macedonian struggle has very little to do with the final partition of macedonian territories between greece serbia and bulgaria. the partition was a result of the military victories and losses during the balkan wars. also i m not so sure that the area controlled by greeks during the macedonian struggle coincides with the area annexed by greece in 1913.--Greece666 22:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] name change
The conflict was called by the Greeks and recorded by historians as "The Macedonian Struggle". According to wikipedia's naming policy the current name of the article is a POV, hence I'm requesting a move. I thought I should bring this up in Talk, although I don't see how a counter-argument can arouse. I have countless of neutral sources to back this up with, plus the policy on those matters is straight-forward. Miskin 19:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, I only think it'd be better if you added some of your sources below for the record. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The misterious 'locals', Karavangelis, VMRO etc.
1. According to what Germanos Karavangelis himself says in his own autobiographical book "The Macedonian struggle - Memoirs", the conclusion is that the majority of his men were Greeks brought from outside Macedonia, expecially Cretens from Sfakia and Maniacs from Mani, Peloponese, as member 'Greece666' correctly pointed before me, thanks for that)
So, about what locals are you talking about? I'm not quoting any source from Skopje or Sofia here, if greek Wikipeders do not consider their own Karavangelis as a relevant source, what then?
Also, the "makedonomacho" Karavangelis himself is also not from Macedonia (he's a Lesbian, born in the village of Stipsi) and he has no connection or origin from Macedonia whatsoever. Same with the leutenant of the Greek army Pavlos Melas born in France with origins from Northern Epirus(now Albania) which arrived in Macedonia from Athens.
There were only few persons that were really from Macedonia involved in the Greek struggle for Macedonia on the greek side, just to name a few:
- Kote from the village of Rulja (that Greeks renamed it as Kotas in his honour in the time of the toponym changes in Greece in 1926), a renegade from VMRO who joined the Greek side. Among older people from Republic of Macedonia and refugees from Aegean Macedonia the proverb "Kako Kote od Rulja" ("Like Kote from Rulja") still exists (it is used for traitors and similar kind of people who betray ideals and join the enemy for money just like Kote from Rulja did)
Later he was executed by the Turkish authorities for ordinary criminal activities and his descendants were on high positions in the greek society (officers etc..)
- Vangel (Vangelis Natsis) from the village of Strebreno (renamed as Asprogiya in 1926) whose "popularity" and reputation among the real Macedonian locals can be well illustrated by quoting the following lyrics from an authentic folk song from Aegean Macedonia: "Ozdola ide dzver Vangelj..." ("There comes the beast Vangel")
Of course, needless to say that he was shot by those same locals (check Karavangelis'es book)
- also there was insignificant number of other local chieftains who left the VMRO to join the greek side (mostly irrelevant persons, local chieftains, I mean certainly not of a 'caliber' of Goce Delchev or other important leaders of VMRO)
For example like that one who was skillfully manipulated to join the greek side and leave VMRO as Karavangelis used that man's personal hatred to another VMRO chieftain with whom his wife was cheating him (the source is again Karavangelis himself)
2. It is mentioned in the article that "The guerilla groups were also hunted by the Turkish Army"
The Greek armed gangs were formed to fight the VMRO armed groups "komiti". Not only that the greek gangs didn't fight the Turkish army, but Karavangelis himself speaks in his own book about the fruitfull collaboration he had with the occupator against their common enemy. He personally was offtenly informing the Turkish authorities about where the Komiti's were hidding etc. The photograph The_chieftains_Spyros_and_Adam.jpg of the greek "makedonomachos" (greek "freedom fighters for Macedonia") together with the turkish officers is a well illustration of how friendly these relations were.
3. The greek side presents the conflict between the VMRO against the Greek armed groups as a war for influence of official Bulgaria and the Bulgarian Exarchy vs the greek Patriarchy, which of course is an absolute lie. Most of the VMRO revolutionaries such as Delchev, Karev etc. were influenced by the socialism, anarchism and even communism. Most of them didn't care about the religion or had a neutral attitude towards it, they didn't care about exarchism vs patriarchism etc. and many of them actually confronted the Bulgarian Exarchy (check their biographies, for example Petar Pop Arsov) and they entered an open conflict with the Bulgarian government who sponsored the Vrhovist (Supreme) Comitee in Sofia and it's gangs (a pro-Bulgarian right wing organisation and an enemy to the centralist VMRO against which they fought).
I also strongly recommend the famous book "Confessions of a Macedonian Bandit" by Albert Sonnichsen, the American who joined the VMRO Komiti group and saw action in the Macedonian struggle, incl. the Gianitsa marsh. Among other things, he also mentions the influence of the above mentioned leftist ideologies on the macedonian vmro freedom fighters, their views towards the church as well etc. I wonder why no one mentions this book which can be a good additional reading on the subject)
Also check the memoirs of some of the important VMRO leaders. When the 'Komiti' liberated the town of Vasiliko in Thrace during the Preobrazhensko uprising in Thrace, the revolutionary leader Gerdzikov was visited by a group of greek citizens who asked "What flag should we raise now?", the answer was simple, put anything u like, he didn't care at all (as he was an anarchist).
Similar situations can be found in many books too, but of course the greek side doesn't take these facts into account. Karavangelis himself in his book shows quite a confused and limited knowledge about "who is who" and who fought for what when speaking of the VMRO and things related. He totally confuses the "Centralists" who fought SOLELY for Autonomy of Macedonia (mostly socialists and cosmopolits) and the "Vrhovists" who were fighting the previously mentioned.
4. Offtopic:
QUOTE from a previous commentator:
"in any case thank you for not invading because you were allied with the Soviet Union and we with NATO and therefore you would have precipitated World War III."(end of quote)
I really wonder how are we going to discuss history here, when certain individuals are not informed about some very basic historical facts:
Republic of Macedonia (or FYROM if you prefer) as a former federal part of then Socialist Federative Yugoslavia was NOT an Eastern Bloc country.
We were never a "Moscow sattelite" behind the Iron curtain such as Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Hungary and the rest of these "new EU countries" or EU countries to be.
Oncontrary after Tito-Stalin split in 1948, Yugoslavia was independent both from the east and the western bloc and a leading founder of the Non-Aligned Movement
Still if choosing between the East and the West, Socialist Yugoslavia was more closer to the West. In 1954 Yugoslavia (who was previously backing the Communists in the Greek Civil war) signed a Balkan Pact for mutual self-defense with Greece and Turkey (both by then members of NATO) for protection against possible Soviet attack, also it received some help form the US because it was sort of "buffer zone" between the West and the Soviet controled world. So HOW THE HELL WE COULD ATTACK YOU?! About what alliance with the Soviets r u talking about?
Btw some trivia related to the subject: Socialist Yugoslavia started to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest(in which only western european countries participated at the time) in 1961, while the "capitalist-NATO" Greece joined in 1974 :) --Vbb-sk-mk 14:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup needed - distorted facts; bias; contradictions; adding some more refferences needed etc.
1. The Greek Macedonian struggle was not an officiall greek conflict against the official state of Bulgaria (the state of Bulgaria officially was not an occupator in that time on that territory or anything) so it needs to be changed to something like "greek conflict against VMRO" etc. VMRO of Goce Delchev was fighting for autonomous Macedonia so it's wrong to mention the state of Bulgaria as it was not an organisation created by the Bulgarian state. Things become more complicated having in mind the creation of a rival organisation of VMRO sponsored by the Bulgarian government- The Supreme Comitee (Vrhovisti) which may also have been involved in all that
2. The Greek Macedonian struggle was not an independence struggle against Ottoman Turkish occupation neither, claiming that is an absolute lie. Actually the dedicated greek nationalist Germanos Karavangelis in his own book of memoirs says openly that he collaborated with the Turkish authorities all the time very succesfully mentioning particular situations, ottoman officials such as Rustem Bey etc. That must be changed immediatly too
3. As I explained before, quoting Karavangelis'es own autobiographic book, his men were mostly newcomers from Greece (especially officers from the greek regular army, volunteers from Crete, various criminals that he picked somewhere and an insignificant number of locals of which one can mention only Vangelis Natsas and Kotas Hristos (so much about the "numerous locals" that joined the struggle, history recorded only a few). Dont blame me, he wrote the book.
4. Monastiri is a greek name of Bitola. At that time this city was within the borders of the Ottoman Empire so Manastir is an apropriate name with later explanation that it is a present day Bitola (I mean why should the greek toponym Monastiri be used first?! The city itself was not officially named Monastiri then and it was not part of the greek state. Only local greek speaking population may used this name which is irrelevant)
5. The name of the Revolutionary Organisation that fought for autonomy of Macedonia and Thrace despite the changes has never included the toponym "Adrianopole". instead the name "Odrin" was used for this same city and "Odrinsko" for the surrounding area. Accordingly the organisation's name originaly included "Makedonsko-ODRINSKA Revolucionerna Organizacija". Adrianopole should be deleted
6. Gianitsa (a town that was built by the Turks) in that time was named Yenidje Vardar (Turkish name), while the ethnic Macedonians or u may say Bulgarian population (subject of dispute) called it and still call it Pazar. i will check what was the name of the lake appropriately for that time too. The toponym Gianitsa should be only incl. in brackets to explain the present day name and Enidje Vardar or Yenidje should be added in the first place.
7. It is just arbitrary stated in this article that the Ilinden uprising was just 'unsuccesful' ommiting the important fact that territories were liberated and the Krushevo Republic was formed etc. It is in contradiction with the article about the Ilinden uprising where those facts are included. More apropriate would be to mention that the uprising failed after a short period of initial success.
8. Why there are no photos of the armed groups or individuals etc. who fought against the greek side in this conflict and thus belong to this subject? 9. I would also like to add some books for further reading incl. the greek point of view, the bulgarian etc. 10. Dont blame me for any eventual changes as I have tried to explain everything with appropriate arguments beforehand. --Vbb-sk-mk 05:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I protest over the latest ridiculuous and biased changes!
I protest over some of the latest changes to my recent additions by the member Aldux :
Previously in the discussion you can see that I twice warned all of you that there r certain parts that must be changed and I gave appropriate explanations and ARGUMENTS why, before I actually made the changes, but no one gave me any good contraarguments to stop me from doing so!
The article itself until my recent changes ALL THE TIME was without ANY cites or sources mentioned! and strangelky no one was complaining about that all the time! But then, after I added my stuff, today I see it already crippled at some places plus a tag placed "this article doesnt cite its source"???!! well excuse me, i was the first who actually added a reference source and some books at all, why didn't you complain before, when there was nothing?! or I suppose previously it was more biased towards trhe greek side so you were satisfied with it? what kind of justice is this?
And you still fanaticaly INSIST on a version that would include: the greek groups fought the Turkish, army WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICILOUS.
I said it once and I will repeat milion times over and over again if needed cause Im sick of ignorant people.
ONE OF THE MAIN LEADERS OF THE GREEK SIDE KARAVANGELIS, THE IDEOLOGICAL FATHER OF THE 'WHOLE THING' AND YOUR BELOVED HERO OPENLY AND WITH PRIDE ADMITTS IN HIS OWN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL BOOK WHICH I CAN QUOTE DIRECTLY IF NEEDED THAT HE FRUITFULLY and PERMANENTLY COLLABORATED WITH THE TURKISH OCCUPATOR. EXPECIALLY WITH RUSTEM-BEY. There were only a couple of accidental skirmishes between the greek groups and the turkish army, not more!
Now explain me please how come the greek groups "fought against the turkish army"??
MAY I ASK YOU LADIES AND GENTLEMEN FROM GREECE WHAT UPRISING OR IMPORTANT BATTLES THESE GROUPS HAD AGAINST THE OTTOMANS that i dont know about? wHAT PLACES THEY HAVE LIBERATED??
The opposite side had the Ilinden uprising, the Gemidzhii etc... I BEG YOU GIVE ME PLEASE ONE IMPORTANT BATTLE OR AN UPRISING AGAINST THE OTTOMANS BY THE GREEK FORCES IN MACEDONIA DURING THE MACEDONIAN STRUGGLE 1904-1908!
There's no such thing! Full stop. So stop falsifying the truth!
Also you fanaticaly stick to the nationalist child stories refusing to admitt a 100% fact that only FEW locals were really recruited. This includes Kote Hristov (thats his real name and under that name he was listed in the ottoman documents, u can call him Kotas as much as u like, that won't change anything), vangelis, the chiftain Gele plus lets say 3-4 more. add the fact that all of them had groups of 15-20, so the whole number of recruited locals is ridiculuous and if I was a greek nationalist I wouldnt be too proud.
Karavangelis in his OWN books mentions at some moment the number of his men, for example at one place): "thats how we gathered around 50 people, Greeks, Turks, Albanians, 25 FROM RUSTEM BEY (!), 15 VANGELIS AND 10 CRETENS. Well this is a good illustration of how "bravely these greeks fought against the turks" bbravely fighting side by side with them :) the nunmbers of vangel's group is only for 5 people bigger than the group composed of creten newcomers, not really a sign of a massive local movement or anything.
Also another thing, nothing at all is ever mentioned about the official point of view of Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) on these matters!!
When VMRO is in question, all the time all I hear is only "Bulgaria this, Bulgaria that, bla-bla". Only the Greek and the Bulgarian side is heard all the time. There r points of view beyond that too
--Vbb-sk-mk 18:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture of Greeks and Turks
What is the origin of the picture of the supposed Greeks and the supposed Turks officers? The chieftains Spyros and Adam) When was it taken? During, after or before the Greek straggle for Macedonia? Who took the photo? Is it in Macedonia or somewhere else? Are those really Turkish officers? Are those really Greek guerillas? In what occasion and why they were photographed together? This picture needs to be verified! (The picture has only 2 Greek names written on it) (If the picture can not be verified I will request that it should be deleted as it has nothing to do with the article.) (Seleukosa 00:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC))
If nobody answers within a certain period of time you have every right to remove the picture. Miskin 15:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
User kapnisma has corrected the picture.He said that he have never written that these were Turkish oficers. I asked him to provide me some more information about the picture! (Seleukosa 22:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
- what was wrong with that picture? it was nice. why dont you read the book of the greek national hero yermanos karavaggelis who was sent by greece to macedonia by nikolaos mavrokordatos? karavaggelis was cooperating with the turkish army all the time.they were brothers in arms (the turkish commander Rustem bey was a even a former student in athens, at one occassion he sang the national anthem of greece in honour of karavafggelis).why are you so embarassed of your own history?
Dear anonymous user Would you please gives as the exact page and edition were the above information was published? What you describe can only have 4 explanations! a)Rustem Bey was heavily influenced by Germanos Karavangelis and he became pro-Greek and he supported the Greek cause against his own country! (Which is a great succes of Gerrmanos karavagelis!) b) Rustem Bey was manipulated and tricked by Germanos Karavangelis to support the Greeks, believing he was supporting Ottoman Empire’s interests! (Which is a great succes of Gerrmanos karavangelis!) c) Rustem Bay was a pro-Greek (a Greek-fan!!) and he was fighting along side with the Greeks against Ottoman Empire. That also explain why he sang the Greek national anthem! and finally d) The Ottoman Empire has actually order Rustem Bey and the Ottoman forces to attack the IMRO/VMRO fighters and collaborate with the Greek-Macedonian fighters in order to support the Greek struggle of Macedonia against the interests of the Ottoman Empire.
Seleukosa 09:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gemidzhii and VMRO
According to my source, since I was the one who started the article, (John Koliopoulos, History of Greece from 1800, Vanias Press, Thessaloniki, 2002 ISBN 960-288-082-1) those people were connected with VMRO. If you have an other opinion, first discuss it here. Kapnisma ? 20:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] References
I fail to notice: is this article properly referenced or not? It contains only one properly formated reference, the rest is under "further reading". Im afraid i will have to tag it --Dzole 05:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Scope of this article
The main problem of this article seems to be its scope: An article about a war or civil war should never be written entirely from the perspective of the one side. Which has been done here, and marked as such even in the choice of title. This was not just a "Greek struggle for...", it was a period of civil war between several sides. So, what do people in the other relevant countries call these events, and above all, what does third-party scholarship call it?
And yes, the references are entirely one-sided and insufficient too, so the warning tag stays. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The scope of this article was the Greek perpective, hence the title Greek Struggle for Macedonia. Excuse me, but what you write doen't make any sence. it was a period of civil war between several sides(?). I mean a civil war happens inside a nation, for example the Greek one in late '40. In this case it was fight between Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks, so what do you mean civil war? Secondary, we Greeks call it Macedonian Struggle, but I chose how Dakin (a Western source) calls it, Greek Struggle of Macedonia. Thirdly, if you mean that we should include as sources various Slavomacedonian sites that talk about genocite against them, our disagreement will be hard. When I wrote this article my sources, as indicated, where three, Koliopoulos (considered the most important modern Greek historian, used by Mazower as source in many of his books), Vakalopoulos (his works on modern Greek history are well known, specially in France) and Dakin. Feel free to contibute with other sources as well but placing warning tags everywhere (not you, in particular), when we disagree in order to cheapen the article's status is not a solution. Kapnisma ? 15:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- I do agree with Kapnisma for this article but perhaps we should consider a new article entitled: “pre Balkan war conflict in Ottoman Macedonia” or “Greek – Bulgarian conflict over Macedonia” although the article Macedonia (region) is very detailed about the conflict! But yet we can still create a new one! An incorporate a large part of Macedonia (region) .
Seleukosa 15:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- (ec) :Couple points: first, I'm not going to go into the semantics whether it was a war or a civil war or whatever else (arguably it was a civil war between citizens of the Ottoman Empire, right? but anyway, it doesn't really matter.) Second, no, I'd definitely not mean "balancing" the perspectives by material from nationalist junk sites of whatever party; this is in fact one good thing about this article that it is sourced from actual books, I must commend you for that. But still, the only work that is actually used to source the details is Karavangelis, and that's not only clearly biased but also a primary rather than a secondary source. Finally, I do maintain that an article specifically geared towards the Greek perspective is not a good idea. We should have a general historical article that treats the whole period as part of the history of Macedonia, neutrally, under whatever title. My question to those who know the literature better than I do remains: what is a common neutral term for this complex of events? I mean, there surely must be one? What do Bulgarian authors call the events? (after edit conflict, to Seleukosa: no, we shouldn't have yet another separate article, we should have one article under a title like the one you suggest, and merge this one into it. Or move this one there and expand it accordingly, which is the same.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I never used Karavangelis as a source, just look the edit history. At one point, some Slavomacedonian users appeared claiming genocites, ethnic cleanings, etc, etc and used as source, apart from the usual websites, some books of theirs that use quotes from Karavangelis book out of context and ill translated in order to present the Greek Macedonians that participated in the Struggle as criminals or traitors of their race, etc, etc. It was them who added this source. When I and other users asked them to tell us where exactly Karavangelis quotes what they claim (because it happens to possess that book), ofcourse they disappeared. That is the history of Karavangelis book being used as a source. About the article itself, a think it is balanced, avoiding tentions and presents a part of Greek History. 16:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
As far as having this article goes, it makes sense IMO for Wikipedia to have articles describing summaries of the role of a particular country in a particular conflict, when there are enough sources that there exists a coherent view of that side's role and perspective. There should also be a main article describing the conflict itself, so I agree on that. For example, we have a main article on World War II, but also an article specifically summarizing the war from the U.S. perspective, Military history of the United States during World War II. --Delirium (talk) 20:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
