Talk:Great White Fleet
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Nicely detailed itinerary given, but what was the President's purpose for the fleet, and what was its historical significance? Did it symbolize the emergence of the US as a world power? Surely there are some TR quotes or documents to explain this.
According to a High School history book I had, it is written that congress would refuse to fund the Great White Fleet, and Teddy Roosevelt said that if they don't fund the fleet home, it will remain on the other side of the world.24.60.124.8 23:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Civil War Era Sailors
If I am not mistaken, Farragutt had ceased active duty and his step-brother David Dixon Porter was in charge of the naval forces in both battles of Ft. Fisher. Any comments before I change this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.89.133 (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please cite a reliable source. -- Donald Albury 03:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Shelby Foote's The Civil War a Narrative, vol. III: Red River to Appomattox pg 724 (Farragut's end of War Service and his declining of the Ft. Fisher expedition) pp715-721 (Porter and the first expedition)pp 741-747 (Porter and the second expedition) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.136.125 (talk) 01:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- That should do it. -- Donald Albury 13:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Shelby Foote's The Civil War a Narrative, vol. III: Red River to Appomattox pg 724 (Farragut's end of War Service and his declining of the Ft. Fisher expedition) pp715-721 (Porter and the first expedition)pp 741-747 (Porter and the second expedition) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.136.125 (talk) 01:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Problems
This article has a few problems, not the least of which is the title. The Great White Fleet (GWF) is, at best, a popular media term for, collectively, the ships of the USN of this era. More accurate terms for the battleships participating in this cruise would be the "Battle Fleet" or the "North Atlantic Squadron." Even worse, the GWF is not limited to the world cruise, i.e., it existed before and after this specific operation. So, the article should at least be titled, "The World Cruise of the Great White Fleet," or more correctly, "The World Cruise of the Battle Fleet" (probably the most accurate and correct title from the period literature) or "The World Cruise of the North Atlantic Squadron" (may not be strictly correct as there may have been some non-battleships in the squadron that didn't make the voyage).
Although I didn't alter (or don't even know if its possible) the overall title, I did correct one misconception that might arise from the comment later on in the article that Alabama and Maine were left on the west coast when the rest of the fleet departed. The ships (actually I think it was only Alabama that broke down) were quickly repaired and soon left together to complete their own circumnavigation of the globe - so they weren't the "hanger queens" (okay, an aviation term) that one might be led to believe from this article. The source for this update is the venerable DANFS entries for the two - I don't know how to introduce a reference, but hopefully the interested reader who might get this far will have no troubles in locating the citations on the web. In many ways, the trip of Alabama and Maine on their own little globetrotting journey is just as remarkable as that of their sisters. J. M. Deur 20:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.148.60.151 (talk • contribs)
- Changing the name of an article is a 'Move', which requires a registered account, and should normally be done only after a consensus is reached to do so. If you could copy the URLs here, we could work on it. -- Donald Albury 00:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Actually, I have a "registered account" but don't bother to use it usually. You can consensus away, but you'll find that the above comments are pretty much correct - in actuality, I'm always somewhat amused when this GWF term is applied to the North Atlantic Squadron as there was some banana company in South America that referred to its fleet of white banana boats during this period as the Great White Fleet. Anyway, to introduce a baseball analogy, referring to the North Atlantic Squadron as the GWF is somewhat akin to referring to the NY Yankees as the Bronx Bombers. -- J. M. Deur 03:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Without citations to reliable sources, it ain't likely to happen. Please name some sources. -- Donald Albury 14:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, the standard academic history is Reckner's "Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet: The WORLD CRUISE OF THE AMERICAN BATTLEFLEET, 1907 - 1909" or how about a classic period reference, Roman Miller's "Pictorial Log of the BATTLE FLEET CRUISE AROUND THE WORLD." Do these titles strike a chord? You don't even have to crack the books open to see what these boys are calling this operation. Say, how does the ever reliable Arlington National Cemetery refer to this operation in their obits? Bet there's a lot of references to the Great White Fleet - no, sorry - look at the obit for VAdm Arthur Bryon Cook, who sailed around the world in USS Georgia: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/abcook.htm. If y'all care to look, it describes his service as "turret officer during the Around the World Cruise of the Battle Fleet (sound familiar?)," not "turret officer of the Great White Fleet." Why? because the former was the proper, historical description for the operation and the collection of ships that took part in it. Now as for reliable sources and Wikipedia, go take a look at the Battle of Santiago de Cuba article - the only reference is something called "A Dirty Little War by A. Bagosy." I challenge anyone to find a copy of this book - no copies for sale on Amazon, ABE, Eurobuch, etc. no copies in the Library of Congress or listed on WorldCat. Yet, its described as a B article by Wiki' standards, so much for "reliable sources." Okay, time to go take my medicine. -- J. M. Deur 17:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't buy it. The fleet is famous as the Great White Fleet. Would you look up Dr. Seuss as Theodore Geisel or John Wayne as Marion Morrison? Also, I'd have to check, but didn't the North Atlantic Sqaudron and the "Battle Fleet" exist both before and after the cruise? Since the article is based on the cruise you would be making something specific much to broad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.124.15 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry you don't buy it whoever you are, but your analogy doesn't hold. The North Atlantic Squadron was the name of the unit - it was the name that the U.S. Navy applied to it - Great White Fleet is a nickname applied by the press. What does this have to do with John Wayne's assumed stage name,i.e., the name that he, his agent, or his studio (don't know which) assumed for publicity purposes)? In fact, I'd suspect that was his "official" name registered with the actor's union. Indeed, as noted earlier, the only self-applied application of the Great White Fleet title is the banana boat fleet of the United Fruit Co. Applying what you're saying above here, the unit that circumnavigated the world should be called, ta da, the North Atlantic Squadron since that is its actual designation and the name that the Navy itself used (just as John Wayne is John Wayne's actual screen name) in reports, etc. The analogy that I provided above is accurate - this is akin to calling the Brooklyn Dodgers the Bronx Bombers. As to your last comment, the proposed change to the title was to "World Cruise of the Battle Fleet" or at least "World Cruise of the Great White Fleet." As long as the ships were painted in that white and buff scheme, they were commonly called the GWF (saving time), so this article's title is too general (as well as sloppy in refering to something by its nickname rather than its actual name) as it stands which is where this thread started. In any case, made a couple of minor edits to at least introduce the idea that GWF is a nickname, not the actual name, and to introduce the actual name, the Atlantic Fleet (apparently North Atlantic Squadron was supersided by the time of the fleet's departure). jmdeur 13:40 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the article should be moved to an article with the heading of the formal name of the expedition if it can be found. Colloquial names and nicknames should still link to that main article, but the formal title should be whatever the formal designation of the voyage was. That said, the US Navy's official website refers to the voyage as the "Cruise of the Great White Fleet" http://www.navy.mil/gwf/thejournybegins.htm. A much older source, the NYT article contemporaneous to the cruise refers to it as the "Winter Cruise of the North Atlantic Squadron" http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A07E0D91130E132A25755C1A9679D946097D6CF... However, most modern sources at least on the internet seem to refer to the North Atlantic Squadron specifically as the Great White Fleet including the US navy, so its probably legit to call it as such--but it should be clarified in the title the article refers to the cruise, not to the fleet itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.74.86.15 (talk) 05:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry you don't buy it whoever you are, but your analogy doesn't hold. The North Atlantic Squadron was the name of the unit - it was the name that the U.S. Navy applied to it - Great White Fleet is a nickname applied by the press. What does this have to do with John Wayne's assumed stage name,i.e., the name that he, his agent, or his studio (don't know which) assumed for publicity purposes)? In fact, I'd suspect that was his "official" name registered with the actor's union. Indeed, as noted earlier, the only self-applied application of the Great White Fleet title is the banana boat fleet of the United Fruit Co. Applying what you're saying above here, the unit that circumnavigated the world should be called, ta da, the North Atlantic Squadron since that is its actual designation and the name that the Navy itself used (just as John Wayne is John Wayne's actual screen name) in reports, etc. The analogy that I provided above is accurate - this is akin to calling the Brooklyn Dodgers the Bronx Bombers. As to your last comment, the proposed change to the title was to "World Cruise of the Battle Fleet" or at least "World Cruise of the Great White Fleet." As long as the ships were painted in that white and buff scheme, they were commonly called the GWF (saving time), so this article's title is too general (as well as sloppy in refering to something by its nickname rather than its actual name) as it stands which is where this thread started. In any case, made a couple of minor edits to at least introduce the idea that GWF is a nickname, not the actual name, and to introduce the actual name, the Atlantic Fleet (apparently North Atlantic Squadron was supersided by the time of the fleet's departure). jmdeur 13:40 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't buy it. The fleet is famous as the Great White Fleet. Would you look up Dr. Seuss as Theodore Geisel or John Wayne as Marion Morrison? Also, I'd have to check, but didn't the North Atlantic Sqaudron and the "Battle Fleet" exist both before and after the cruise? Since the article is based on the cruise you would be making something specific much to broad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.124.15 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, the standard academic history is Reckner's "Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet: The WORLD CRUISE OF THE AMERICAN BATTLEFLEET, 1907 - 1909" or how about a classic period reference, Roman Miller's "Pictorial Log of the BATTLE FLEET CRUISE AROUND THE WORLD." Do these titles strike a chord? You don't even have to crack the books open to see what these boys are calling this operation. Say, how does the ever reliable Arlington National Cemetery refer to this operation in their obits? Bet there's a lot of references to the Great White Fleet - no, sorry - look at the obit for VAdm Arthur Bryon Cook, who sailed around the world in USS Georgia: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/abcook.htm. If y'all care to look, it describes his service as "turret officer during the Around the World Cruise of the Battle Fleet (sound familiar?)," not "turret officer of the Great White Fleet." Why? because the former was the proper, historical description for the operation and the collection of ships that took part in it. Now as for reliable sources and Wikipedia, go take a look at the Battle of Santiago de Cuba article - the only reference is something called "A Dirty Little War by A. Bagosy." I challenge anyone to find a copy of this book - no copies for sale on Amazon, ABE, Eurobuch, etc. no copies in the Library of Congress or listed on WorldCat. Yet, its described as a B article by Wiki' standards, so much for "reliable sources." Okay, time to go take my medicine. -- J. M. Deur 17:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Without citations to reliable sources, it ain't likely to happen. Please name some sources. -- Donald Albury 14:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I have a "registered account" but don't bother to use it usually. You can consensus away, but you'll find that the above comments are pretty much correct - in actuality, I'm always somewhat amused when this GWF term is applied to the North Atlantic Squadron as there was some banana company in South America that referred to its fleet of white banana boats during this period as the Great White Fleet. Anyway, to introduce a baseball analogy, referring to the North Atlantic Squadron as the GWF is somewhat akin to referring to the NY Yankees as the Bronx Bombers. -- J. M. Deur 03:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
