Template talk:Grading scheme

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Please see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment to see what this is all about.

Contents

[edit] Template-ified

I made this into a template so that it can be included in different places. In the "what links here" you can see I've added it in a couple different places. Jdorje 16:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A cool idea

It would be cool, for the example articles of each grade, to show the progress of one article through the grades (ie "in July 2005, ___ was at stub quality" "in September 2005, ___ was at start quality" ... "in March 2006, ___ was at FA quality"). That would show a real comparison between the grade. Any ideas of which article to use? Otherwise I might be bold and just pick one. Batmanand | Talk 11:07, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

OK so here is the idea. I would use the article Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima. The stages would be:
  • Stub: this version (it was the article as it was created, it is a stub)
  • Start: this version (it now had images, and the content was getting there)
  • B-Class: this version (it is structured well but it was missing the "Sixth Man Controversy" section)
  • A-class: this version (this is the article as it was when it was nominated at WP:FAC)
  • FA: this version (this is the article as it was when it was awarded WP:FA status). What do people think? Batmanand | Talk 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it is a very good idea, although perhaps the template could be 'jazzed' up a bit. I mean it is not the best looking thing at the moment, and would it not be an idea to try and incorporate the current star for a FA, and perhaps look to symbolism as opposed to colours to represent aritcle grades. But as a general idea:very good. --Wisden17 22:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I like the idea a lot. Especially the small number of proposed grades(5). I'd be against adding any further grades (eg C-standard, D-standard, etc...). --Quiddity 19:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where do "Good Articles" fit in?

Where would good articles fit into this scale? Would this replace the "good articles" designation? Kaldari 22:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That is an interesting point. Maybe A-grade becomes Good Article? 82.153.113.13 22:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Sorry this is me; accidently logged out. Not trying to sockpuppet my way out of the discussion... Batmanand | Talk 22:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
maybe transfer "B-Class" to "C-class". Create another entry for B-Class stating its a good article that could use a tiny bit more work. – Tutmøsis (Talk) 00:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think that GA is an intermediate level between A-Class and B-Class. I've compared the Good Article Criteria and our Assessment Criteria and here's a side-by-side comparision:
Good articles A-Class articles
"It is well written" "The article provides a well-written, reasonably clear ... description of the topic"
It is factually accurate and verifiable "It should have sufficient external literature references, preferably from the "hard" (peer-reviewed where appropriate) literature rather than websites."
It is broad in its coverage "...complete description of the topic, as described in How to write a great article."
It adheres to the neutral point of view policy: "With NPOV a well written B-class may correspond to the "Wikipedia 0.5" or "usable" standard."
It is stable Not explicitly included, but need to satisfy featured article guidelines
It contains images to illustrate it, where possible: "It should be well illustrated, with no copyright problems."
Additionally, as A-Class articles "should be well illustrated, with no copyright problems. [The A-Class article] should be at the stage where it could at least be considered for featured article status, and corresponds to the "Wikipedia 1.0" standard", they have tougher criteria, so they should be above {{GA-Class}} articles. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 01:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
As of now, however, not many of the listed A-Class articles are Good Articles. Clicking on a number of titles randomly, I couldn't find any. bcasterline t 01:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Basically, because they have not been nominated. I'm not sure that being a GA should be a requirement for an A-Class article, but rather additional peer review. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 01:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The example A-class article, Ammonia, is a Good Article. Kaldari 02:08, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
While it doesn't use this exact grading scheme, The CVG Worklist puts GAs roughly on the same level as A-class, but has its own rank since it's easy to slap the GA image on it and GAs have seen at least one other editor who agrees. Nifboy 03:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you think it would be safe to say that any Good Articles are at least a B-Class and are probably A-Class? Kaldari 02:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nifboy it would be simpiler allround just to use FA-GA-B-Start-Stub. That way a lot of the work in grading articles is already done by the good article system. Is there any particular reason why we need to introduce another grade? --Salix alba (talk) 23:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
By the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Good articles, it seems that they are considering adding another grade to the GA proposal, so A-Class would be that. Also, again, A-Class articles have already more stringent standards, and GAs are not required. That said, any A-Class should easily pass GA, and if it doesn't, then it shouldn't be an A-Class article. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 23:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
This is interesting. For short articles (articles which are never likely to be of Featured length) I consider GA to be the peak. I consider it a little bizarre to "promote" an article from GA-class to A-class (I've been looking at it the other way, current GA nominees I have as "A", and I will "promote" then to GA when they're passed). A short article should peak at GA. Any article better than GA should be Featured, it's as simple as that. Our very best articles should have some kind of peer review. "A-class" is "A" because someone close to the article - quite possibly it's primary author - says so. FA and GA are rated by one or more independent editors. I know which I value more highly, and it's not A. --kingboyk 07:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I would go the other way, actually; but this could be a consequence of the different topics we work with ;-)
GA status—being tied to a more-or-less public page—will often be assigned by non-members of the WikiProject. Sometimes, the "independent" reviewer is, shall we say, not exacty a subject expert. Sometimes this leads to obvious garbage getting a GA tag ;-) Conversely, since nobody but a project member is likely to use the other grading classes, they're a better representation of the actual WikiProject rating of the article, rather than the opinion of some random passerby. Kirill Lokshin 13:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we need a "Featured short articles" system? :) --kingboyk 15:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the regular FAC really that bad? I've certainly seen short(er) articles become FAs; how short are you trying to make these? ;-) Kirill Lokshin 15:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say this one is quite there yet, and please pardon the bad language, but something like this: Fuck the Millennium. Same goes for this one, again not of a Featured standard yet but we could it get there (and it's currently GA). Doctorin' the Tardis. Both of those I consider to be "short" but pretty comprehensive. Comments? --kingboyk 15:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Short?! The first one is 20K! ;-)
I don't think either of those would have length-related problems on FAC; it's mostly when you drop below 10K that people start having concerns about comprehensiveness. Kirill Lokshin 15:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about topics that only need a small article?

My big concern is that this system is aimed only at articles on topics which merit thousands of words and only those will ever be given kudos. There are plenty of topics where two or three paragraphs are all that is needed, but you never see one of them as a featured article. Britannica, Americana and the World Book have loads of short articles, in fact most of their articles are short and that is actually a good thing. How is this system going to give kudos to short articles on small topics and reward people who work on them? What I don't want to see is a situation where either those articles are ignored, or people pad things out with three thousand boring words of over the top detail (albeit well written and fully referenced etc etc) as that is the only way to get an article upgraded. Golfcam 20:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not the case. The FA criteria do not include article size as a requirement, and we only ask for a "complete description of the topic" to be A-Class. If an article is complete with just a few paragraphs, then it is complete with just a few paragraphs and it gets A-Class, as simple as that. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 21:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
walkerma and I have just gone around the mullbery bush on this one (through edit descriptions and a brief exchange on my talk page) and now the A-Class description talks about article length in a manner that seems fine to me. Sj had added this question to the "Start" category of articles and I removed the question because questions like that should be discussed as talk rather than in the articles themselves. It seems that article length is a factor for some of the grades in some respects, and a specific non-factor for others. May I suggest that the following things are true:
  • An article that is short -- but complete for the subject -- is probably B-Class or better, GA, A-Class or FA
  • An article that is considerably too short for the subject is probably a stub or a start
  • An article that is a bit too short for the subject is probably B-Class or GA
  • An article that is too long for the subject is probably B-Class or GA and not A-Class or FA
  • An article that is mostly extraneous material is probably start or stub, depending on the amount of useful content.
  • Article length is never a deciding factor, but just one of several criteria for grading purposes.
If people agree with these as a general rule, we ought to be able to flip them around and discuss them in the grades section (as we now have for A-Class and Stub). Thesmothete 16:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with part of it. If the article is short, but it treats a narrowly-defined topic in a comprehensive manner, it shouldn't be disqualified from GA-Class, A-Class, FA-Class, etc. However, I'm not sure an article can be too long for the subject and still be comprehensive, as required in FA standards. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 17:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think what you said is in contraction with what I proposed. See if the clarifications offered above are helpful. Thesmothete 22:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stubs, Starts, B-Class and the reader's perspective

To me it's not readily apparent what the difference is between a "start" and a B-Class article. From the literal description, they seem similar, although the examples show it better. I'd suggest and alternative progression among the first three stages -- with particular emphasis given to the reader's experience.

  • "Stub" is little more than a placeholder, with perhaps a simple definition, a link or two, and a few sentences. Not in any way a serious treatment of the topic. As likely to be useless to a reader passingly familiar with the term as it is to be useful.
  • "Start" has at least one serious element of gathered materials, including any one of the following:
    • a particularly useful picture or graphic
    • multiple links that help explain or illustrate the topic
    • a subheading that fully treats an element of the topic
    • multiple subheadings that indicate material that could be added to complete the article
Most articles in this category have the look of an article "under construction" and a reader genuinely interested in the topic is likely to seek additional information elsewhere.
  • "B-Class" has several of the elements described in "start", usually a majority of the material that would be needed for a completed article. Nonetheless, it has significant gaps or missing elements, needs substanial editing, or contains other policy problems such as copyright, NPOV or NOR. A casual reader flipping through articles would feel that they generally understood the topic, but a serious student or researcher trying to use the material would have trouble doing so, or would risk error in derrivative work.

(Also, I suppose, For A-Class and Featured status, the articles are eminently useful, the major distinction being whether they have been fully "scrubbed" for more minor errors and policy problems.)

These definitions are not intended to contradict those suggested in the original template proposal, but I wonder if people think they would be any more helpful if they were substituted. Thesmothete 17:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Simply having a set of external links is not enough to keep an article from being a stub. (Though I agree, the criteria should be more refined and your set is decent.) — jdorje (talk) 22:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
My two cents - I agree that it's not clear where the delineation between the classes lies. Moreover, the criteria listed for "B" class articles actually suggest an article that's in worse shape than a "start" class article to me. I commented on this a bit in the talk page for the Feng shou article, where I said:
I think the scale itself needs work. I classified this article as a "B" based on the descriptions in the Quality scale, not based on its position on the quality scale list. "B" is listed above "Start," but its criteria describes an article that needs more work than a "Start" article. From the beginning: "Has several of the elements described in 'start'," - it doesn't need to have all of the elements of a "start" article, only several of them. The description goes on to say that "B" articles may have language issues, NPOV issues, or violate the NOR policy. None of these issues are listed as criteria for a "start" article. By that measure, this article is a "B," not a "start," and a "B" actually needs more work than a "start."
Simply, I didn't think this article was even up to the standards laid out in the "start" criteria, but the "B" criteria, actually being less stringent, seemed to describe this article aptly.
-Erik Harris 19:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't see the point

I don't see the point in making it more complicated. This will cause more time to be spent looking over and grading articles instead of actually improving articles. I see the point that it will be looked over more, and there is less chance of a sub-par article gaining featured picture candidacy, but it also takes time away from actually improving articles.

I don't like the featured article process. I like the idea, I like creating articles as best I can and I like the gratification of finally getting an article featured, but the actual FAC process is not fun. This will dissuade people from trying to improve an article because it is more regulated. Some people like to be left alone to write an article, and get the points to fix it at the end (during PR or FAC). For those who like help all the way along, they can recruit people to try and help, or put it through the peer review process. I have had both help during and after I was writing an article. Peer review is not just for an almost complete article, it can help to kill off writers block. I have had many times where I just cannot think of anything else to add to an article, and it turns out there are blatantly obvious sections missing that someone will point out.

I don't think this will be used to the full of its potential. Most people who are writing an article to get it to featured article will skip stages. If they know it is not featured article worthy, then putting it through some process to get a new grade is time wasted they could spend on the article. What is the use in grading an article? If an article is brilliant it can become featured. If it is not brilliant, fix it up. If you don't know why it is not brilliant, review it. All the stages required to create a featured article are already there, this seems redundant. --liquidGhoul 14:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In the Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical cyclones, we have made good use of the grading scheme. We use Category:Tropical cyclone articles by quality to organize every tropical cyclone article by its class. It does add a little but of overhead, but the savings it provides is well worth it. Our policy is that anyone can change an article's grade between Stub/Start/B, and we have a little discussion before upgrading an article to A. One can then look through the category to find a weak article that needs to be improved, or to find a good article that's ready for an FAC. — jdorje (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, so it is more for collaboration of WikiProjects to see where they are in relation to the articles in their field. I guess that makes sense, but it still won't be used by a lot of people, but if it is useful to someone it is useful to Wikipedia :) Thanks for the explanation. --liquidGhoul 22:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd worry a bit that people would start to dispute whether an article is in one class or another. I would suggest that if there is a dispute over the grade for an article that both grades should be allowed to be used. (I now have another proposal; see below Thesmothete 03:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)) However, I do think that the main proposal could be useful for editors, as there are some who like to work on articles at one or another stage (for example, I most enjoy making minor edits to nearly-complete articles and creating stubs). Such a grading system could make it easier to find articles at the stage I find most interesting to edit. I accept that there are other editors who like to take an article all the way from nothing (or nearly nothing) and create a finished piece of it. I don't think this system interferes with that. Another way this grading system could be useful is to help quantify the quality of the million+ articles on wikipedia. It would be great to know, for example, that on July 1, 2006 we had 500 featured articles, 5000 A-level articles, 50,000 B-level articles, 500,000 starts and 500,000 stubs; and then on January 1, 2007 learn how those numbers had improved. Thesmothete 17:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{prod}} replacement?

Maybe we chould merge this and the deletion template - below stub. Davidpk212 21:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Those are two completely different beasts. I don't see how that would be beneficial, especially as saying which articles are good in article space has already proven controversial. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 22:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fantastic idea!

This beauty of a grading scheme is that it would give each person a very clear perspective on what needs to be done to move the article to the next level rating, and provide a large impetus to improve. This is nothing foreign, as Wikibooks has their own article rating system. How do we get this moving? Could we do a straw poll? This kind of productive discussion shouldn't just stay here. Judgesurreal777 18:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a pretty nice set of templates. As I understand it, it's for use in Wikiprojects. Maybe you could advertise it at Wikipedia talk:List of WikiProjects? TheJabberwock 23:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's being used already, by Work via WikiProjects. The talk page you pointed to isn't very active, and we have already told about 100 WikiProjects about the scale ourselves. You may want to look at Wikipedia talk:Good articles for an ongoing discussion about this scale, though. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 23:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow, great, thanks. TheJabberwock 01:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greatidea

I like this idea a lot! A minor word of caution - often times (in life, not necessarily on WP) when there's a scale like this, there's a temptation to color code the scale. Don't do that! No green templates for featured articles, blue for A class, Yellow for B, orange for start, red for stub, or anything along those lines - it becomes laughable like this, not to mention misleading. zafiroblue05 | Talk 06:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, it has been color-coded since the beginning, but the color codes are secondary to the grade assessments... Titoxd(?!? - help us) 06:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
For what its worth I changed the colour Template:B-Class reciently from light gray to the yellow used in WikiProject:Computer and video games, mentioning it here as I doubt may people have seen it on their wacthlists.
Could you elaborate on why using colours makes the homeland security scale more laughable. The Red-Yellow-Green colours give a strong visual clue, and have strong cultural clues (traffic lights etc.). --Salix alba (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to assign grades?

I've been mulling this over for a few days and I think that we must be very, very careful not to let the grading process take up more time an energy than the editing process itself. Extensive disputes over grading will not help any article get better. For example, having things called "stubs" when they are more than a stub is not really a big deal currently.

I note that already Featured Article and Good Article status are the result of pre-existing processes. Those should be kept in place. Stubs are supposed to be assigned by the author, but may be assigned by anyone. I would suggest that we look at something like the following as the various processes for grading:

  • Stub. assigned by anyone, including any author or editor
  • Start. may be summarily assigned by anyone who has never previously edited the article -- also may be nominated by any editor of the article and approved by anyone who has not edited the article
  • B-Class. same as good article procedure, but may be nominated by an editor. Must be reviewed by a non-editor though. AND/OR
also may be summarily upgraded from "start" or "stub" by any "official grader" (to be elected in a manner similar to administrators).
  • Good Article : same as what we have now: one non-editor must nominate, and one non-editor must review favorably
  • A-Class :May be nominated by anyone, including an author. Must receive a majority vote from "official graders" who review have read it. If denied, may not be re-nominated for a specified period (somewhere between one week and one month).
  • Featured Article : must be by nomination and consensus.

For downgrading:

  • Featured Article to ungraded -- same as existing process: consensus
  • A-Class to Good Article -- nominated for demotion by anyone, requires consensus of all editors with suffrage (perhaps 1 month on Wikipedia) (note: this is a way to reverse a decision of the "official graders")
  • Good Article to B-Class -- nominated for demotion by anyone, requires one "support" by an "offical grader", and final action by a different official grader.
  • B-Class to Start -- may be done by an "official grader", either summarily, or upon nomination by anyone
  • Start to Stub -- may be done by anyone --Thesmothete 04:29, April 27 2006
i agree, having a wikipedia wide policy for article class assignment would cut out a lot of arguments. i'm wondering about the criteria for upgrading an article to a-class though. i linked 'peer reviewed' in the template but have just noticed it's refering to external references, but i still think it would be a good idea to recommend that a-class articles go through the existing WP:PR process. --MilkMiruku 12:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Your comment is reasonable. I also mulled over a peer-review type process for the upper grades before posting. Let me share some of my thought process for not doing so. We already have standards for FA, GA, and Stub grades. My feeling was that the process for a given grade should never be more burdensome than a higher grade was, i.e. A-class must be easier to process than FA, B-class must be easier to process than GA, and Start should be harder than Stub and easier than B-Class. Articles get FA status by a vote and consensus, so I figured that A-class designation should be a less burdensome process than that, and to me, WP:PR is at least as burdensome, particularly if a vote was taken. Secondly, WP:PR is not a voting process, but a system for optional suggestions to be made, akin to a request for comment only for the whole article. Peer review does not ensure that the suggestions are taken or implemented just that the suggestions have been made, so you'd have to add a vote. Finally, my understanding of Wikiculture is that peer review is not and must not be a criterion for a "finished" article - the nature of Wikipedia is to be an alternative to a peer-reviewed encyclopedia. I remain open to other suggestions. Frankly, I would like to find a way to give more grades without either having to take a vote on the article, or having to rely on "select" graders, but that seemed the best solution so far. Thesmothete 17:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
i agree with what you say. i was meaning that it would be best to recommended that once an article gets to a-class then it would be a good idea to submit it for WP:PR. voting sounds good, but one of the things i was wondering about (but didn't mention) was what kind of voting process? i haven't checked other WikiProjects, but i'm sure there is at least a few with that kind of system already in place (can anyone point me in the right direction? thanks). another thing though; even if there is a voting process for upping an article to a-class via wikiprojects, there would also have to be something setup for articles that eiteher arn't core topics, related to a wikiproject or are related to an inactive wikiproject. while i remember, are there any other established activities for cleaning up/assessing articles not mentioned already that might be an idea to mention somewhere on the scale? --MilkMiruku 18:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so as I understand it, only articles that have already achieved A-level status would generally request peer review. That makes sense. Thesmothete 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no set procedure to change articles to A-Class. Different WikiProjects differ; WP Cyclones allows any editor to change assessments up to B-Class, and then A-Class articles are discussed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Assessment. However, this may not scale to other WikiProjects, and they're encouraged to create their own methods. I'd say that having a centralized place to discuss assessments, any official procedure to delist or list articles, or to make any official designations for "official reviewers" borders on instruction creep. It would be excessive, and bound to be opposed by most members of the community. Remember: A-Class articles are encouraged to go through Peer review because they're articles that could go through Featured article candidates and have a shot at passing as-is. Otherwise, they are not A-Class articles. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 01:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for avoiding instruction creep. But we do already have a bureaucratic process for GA grades, and a really bureaucratic process for FA status. So I'm not sure why we would have a grade in-between them that nonetheless was easier, procedurally, to get. (I have to say, also that I'm a bit confused to find out that A-Class is already a grade that exists in Wikipedia -- is that right?) In any event, we could just use the same process for B-class and A-class that we do for GA (nominated and approved by two different non-editors). Seems too burdensome for B-Class, and not burdensome enough for A-class, though. The advantage of having a clear, non-negotiable process for assigning grades is to avoid wasting time with grade disputes. For this reason, I think it would be a bad idea to allow grades other than Stub to be assigned by their own editors. I'm specifically also worried about a revert war between someone who thinks an article should be a "start" vs. a "B-Class" article -- who cares. Better to say that only an "official grader" can give something B-class and then hope they're responsible enough not to go to war. Since you're more familiar with A-Class articles, what exactly are you proposing be the means for assigning that grade? And do you still object to the proposed standards for "start" and "B-Class"? Thesmothete 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's several things that have to be cleared up here:
  • First off, A-Class and the like are assessment categories made by WikiProject Chemistry, and which where then adopted by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team. These asssessments are, for now, uniquely for 1.0's use. There's no plans, AFAIK, to make Wikipedia:A-Class article candidacies for now, as this system is a rough assessment of where an article stands and how much it needs to advance before becoming a Featured article, which is every article's goal. If you do want to expand this scale's scope and make it a part of Wikipedia's featured article process, bring it up at Wikipedia talk:Featured articles.
Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful reply. Is the template attached to this talk page proposing a grading system (as I understood it to do)? Or is it simply organizing a pre-existing grading system? Perhaps Jdorje could clarify? Is the designation "A-Class" already available to apply to any article in Wikipedia? Or is this template proposing that this be the case? In answer to your last sentence, I don't think the A-Class designation should be a pre-requisite to candidacy for FA status. The template currently states: "Good articles that may succeed in FAC should be considered A-Class articles, but being a good article is not a requirement for A-Class." I was not proposing to change that. In the general sense that all articles "aspire" to be really, really good (perhaps that's the same as "aspiring" to be FA?), I think the grading scheme would be helpful. Thesmothete 05:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The A-Class designation states that the article has a shot at FAC. If an article is going to spend any time in a grading process, the benefit of the bureaucracy is minimal when compared to the benefit of having the same type of review for FA status. Also, there's several logistics problems with your proposal: who is an official grader? Who determines it? Historically, there has been antipathy to making administrators official graders, as adminship is supposed to not be a big deal. Also, there may be some who object to any idea similar to that on principle, due to Wikipedia's predecessor, Nupedia, failing to produce any results from a hierarchical system of reviewers.
I think what you mean is that A-Class designation should mean that the article has a shot at FA, not FAC, right? Any article can get FAC if just one person proposes it. I wholeheartedly agree that there should not be "the same type of review [for A-Class] as there is for FA status" -- I believe my proposal is much, much simpler than the consensus (plus editing) process needed for FA status ((though I just realized that the word "review" in the initial proposal was ill-chosen -- see my edit aboveThesmothete 05:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC))), but I'm open to additional suggestions. As for who is an official grader, let me say that I did not propose to make administrators into graders -- I agree that's a bad idea. I suggested that official graders would be elected using the same (simple) process as adminstrators. They would, in my proposal, be parallel. As I stated above, the creation of offical graders is my least favorite part of my proposal, but it was the best I could come up with. The main idea here is just to avoid sockpuppetry and vandals becoming official graders -- perhaps there's a process less burdensome even than administrator status? And last, I believe Nupedia was based on graders having some sort of subject-matter expertise -- I'm specifically proposing something less than that -- just a quick read-over to see if there are obvious problems, gaps, policy issues, etc.Thesmothete 05:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • One concern voiced above is that having a review system would distract editors' time from writing the articles to reviewing them on a bureaucracy; that is certainly a valid concern, which I share. I still object to having any sort of bureaucratic system for the other grades, particularly for Start- and B-Class articles. Most of the time, editors know when their articles are stubs, when they are longer and still incomplete (Start-Class), and when they are in much better shape (B-Class). I haven't seen the problem arise, and there have been over 2000 articles assessed using this method. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 06:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't want to argue with success! Perhaps in the spirit of Wikipedia, we should start with a system of self-designation, and then if there are revert wars over the grades, we could add a bureaucracy back in. Remember that the point of a grading system such as I propose above is to save the time and effort of editors -- so that they are not distracted by arguing over grades. The rules of football(soccer) go for 17 pages -- and the rules for selecting a World Cup referee run even longer, I imagine, but that doesn't mean that it's hard for players to understand when they've scored a goal or a penalty, or refrain from toting their own whistles. Remember, again, that we already have a bureaucracy for two of these grades. So I don't think I'm daft for proposing one for the grade in-between. Thesmothete 05:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
A few comments. The short version - I think we could tighten up the system, but not too much.
  • It is true that some WikiProjects use this system (see Wikipedia:Worklistfor some examples) and do include some sort of peer review before articles get promoted to A-Class (e.g., here). Such assessment IMHO are very valuable because they are true peer review by subject experts. However, in areas such as WP1.0 core topics we are working as generalists, and there our assessments are much more subjective - but we needed some starting point - so in some cases one person just made the assignment, even at the A-Class level. We only had one or two people doing assessment at the time!
It makes sense to have at least two people agree to an A-Class designation, don't you think? If GA requires two non-editors, why have less for A-Class? Thesmothete 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Titoxd, in general simple is good. If we add more rules, we should try to build these into the infrastructure rather than adding them as more hurdles that might hinder assessment work.
I also agree with this sentiment.Thesmothete 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • It's hard to equate GA=B or GA=A, there is quite a variation in GA at present. The GA system should be seen as operating independently of this system.
I'll leave it to others to comment on that. I wonder if, over time, GA would be more useful if it were regularly referenced with the A/B system. I'm still not sure exactly what this template is proposing, in that regard. Thesmothete 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't want to see A-Class become something like FA that requires a lengthy procedure to achieve it. For our work at WP1.0, we need to be able to look over an article and say "That look like an A-Class" then label it as such. What might be reasonable, though, is to make us require at least a second opinion (some have had that), as you suggest for B-Class. As for B-Class requiring a second opinion, that would hamstring our work at WP1.0, where in a good week I may assign 50-100 articles (outside my area of expertise) as B-Class. The sheer number of articles at the B-Class level would make this hard. "The harvest is plenty, but the labourers are (very) few!"
I think that was my expectation for B-class. Someone like you would just be able to assign the grade with no further process. The only person who could not would be an editor. Hmm. How about that? B-Class can be assigned by *any* non-editor? No other process required. And any editor can nominate, so that non-editors are alerted to the possibility? Thesmothete 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I for one appreciate your carefully considered opinions, and I'll certainly give them some more thought. Thanks, Walkerma 07:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Likewise. I'm certainly finding this discussion valuable. In my day job, I'm a law/policy specialist, so I enjoy helping develop efficient rules for any system. Ideally they should be intuitive and practically self-enforcing. Creating them is always a negotiation -- the first idea is hardly ever the best. This has been a good way for me to learn more about Wikiculture, at the same time. Thesmothete 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-grades

I had a go at grading some mathematics articles at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/Wikipedia 1.0 and found the A-B-C limiting. There was a wide range of articles which fell under B grade, with vastly different qualities, some being just shy of A-class and others being only a little better than C. Whilst doing this I felt a need to introduce A-, B+, B- and C+ grades to properly rate the articles. This may not be appropriate for the 1.0 project, but a finer grading system can be useful outside of that. --Salix alba (talk) 01:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The flip side, of course, is that introducing a finer gradation of ratings makes them less consistent; where two users could agree on marking an article as "B-Class", they may disagree on whether it qualifies as "B+" or "B" or "B-". Kirill Lokshin 01:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names for the grades

Ok, while I'm at it, I'd like to throw out there that I'm not entirely comfortable with the names of the "B-class" and "A-class" articles. I think it's a little too much like school, and may place too much emphasis on the effort of the editors, rather than the quality of the result. "Stub" "Start" and "Featured" are more self-evidently descriptive. "Good Article" is already out there, so options like "Great Article" and "OK Article" are obvious choices, but I don't like them either because of the value-laden, 4th grade nature of them. How about the following? "Stub", "Start", "Useful", "Good", "Complete", and "Featured"? Thesmothete 17:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, since the grading scale is so simple and has no fancy labels attached, I prefer A-Class and B-Class, for those, again, due to their simplicity. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 00:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully, I'm confused as to how "A-Class", as a term, is more simple than "Complete" and how "B-Class", as a term, is more simple than "Useful" -- it's virtually the same number of characters. Why not just use "C-Class" instead of "Start" and "D-Class" instead of "stub"? B-Class does not seem to have an established meaning extrinsic to this system. Using real words makes it seem less bureaucratic to me. Thesmothete 05:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Another reason for keeping things as they are - these names are now pretty well established, with a couple of thousand articles already assessed with them. I think at least a dozen worklists use it. The names actually evolved through discussion at WP:Chem about a year ago, and seem to have stuck. The system may or may not be named in the ideal way, but it seems to be working. Any name change is largely cosmetic yet also disruptive. We could debate this endlessly, but I think there are other more useful things to focus on. Walkerma 06:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to weigh in, I should point out that Wikipedia has over 1.1 million articles. If a "couple of thousand" articles have ratings, that's equivalent to "almost none" - definitely a good opportunity to change the rating names. I do find the combination of words "stub", "featured" etc and letters "A", "B" undesirable. It's not obvious whether a "good" article or an "A" or "B" article is better. Nor whether "A" or "featured" articles are better. But "featured" is clearly better than "complete", and "A" is clearly better than "B". So a consistent scheme would be better. Stevage 06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Since it's brought up now -- In my opinion, these names aren't clear. When Martin first asked me about it was during a period in which I was participating little in WP and I responded little or not at all on the topic. By the time I was more active again, these were more established within the 1.0 team.
But as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), the current classes are only suggestions for others to use. Any wikiproject or the like can use whatever system it deems fit.
So that's my idea of a compromise. Maurreen 17:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Why not just use "C-Class" instead of "Start" and "D-Class" instead of "stub"? You know that’s actualy a good idea, it would add to the uniformity of the article, and eliminate the vage meanings and conotations asigned to Stub and Start.--Freepsbane 01:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the appeal of consistency, but I think that drifts even farther away from terms that have intuitive connontations. "Stub" is the most well-established grade on Wikipedia, and even the newest users have a grip on what it means. I worry that if we went around labeling new articles as "D-Class" it would potentially offend and discourage new editors -- in other words, there are places in the English-speaking world where giving something a grade of "D" is considered insulting. As noted above, I personally would go in the other direction: "stub, start, useful, good, complete, featured", but I capitulate to the fact that the grades on this template are already being used by a lot of projects. Thesmothete 14:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Websites

The wording for A-Class (regarding refs) states: "..preferably from the "hard" (peer-reviewed where appropriate) literature rather than websites." When I originally composed this (over a year ago) I was thinking of the many dubious sources out there (before Wikipedia, that is!) - I think I was a bit loose in my wording. At WP:1.0 we debated websiite refs and agreed that authoritative sites were OK, such as government sites and sites of professional organisations like the American Chemical Society. I think I'd like to reword this slightly, does anyone have any objections or comments? Thanks, Walkerma 00:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps naming it reputable sources would work? Titoxd(?!? - help us) 00:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That looks good to me! Thanks, Walkerma 01:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template changes

I hope no one minds, but I took it upon myself to CSS-ify all of the templates used for this grading scheme. I also changed some of the colors, based on those we used to used at The Beatles WikiProject prior to switching to these templates. [1] As for the A-Class vs. GA-Class colors, I originally had them at lightgreen (as it already was) vs. palegreen, but I swapped the colors based on our priority list. It seems, however, that you consider the priority of the two reversed. If you continue to maintain this view, I would suggest swapping the colors back. (Maybe we should swap our priorities to match yours.) Anyway, this was just a heads-up about the color changes, so that no one freaks out. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, originally we switched FA to blue because we were having too many colors on the green side, and we tried to maintain a rainbow-like spectrum... I did keep your CSS changes, though. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 05:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Alright, whatever works. The only grievance I have with the blue is that we use blue for our merge-related templates. I had a little three-round fight with the stub template, too, just now, but I lost all three times. I suppose the remaining discussion lies with our project team over what we want to do with the new (for us) templates. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... I just had a bonus round with the stub template. How does "tomato" look? —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Example selection

Please try to select somewhat scholarly examples for the article classes. For instance, I wanted to view Category:Core topics articles by quality and at first thought it was vandalism that All your base are belong to us was an "example" article on that page. It's a valid example, true, but I think we should encourage participation in articles outside pop culture. Moulder 03:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know... I picked that one just because it's so well known - and not boring. If you have to pick one Good Article out of the hundreds of them, you might as well pick one that everybody knows. I envisioned it bringing a smile to people's lips, rather than causing alarm. But if you don't like it I don't mind if you pick a different one. Λυδαcιτγ(TheJabberwock) 03:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I see where you're coming from and appreciate the thought; I'm more concerned about Wikipedia's credibility than personal preference (like I said, it's a valid example). That and WP:BIAS - is everyone familiar with it? :D I'm pretty sure we are, but you get the idea. Moulder 03:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
How about this? Titoxd(?!? - help us) 04:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it should be remembered that this grading scheme my be reached from dozens of places, and if you had come from here the example wouldn't seem so odd. I don't mind if we use a different example, but IMHO the Katrina example looks atypical of GAs, 72 refs is not usual for a GA! I wonder if something like Aristotle might be more appropriate? Walkerma 04:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Heh, good point, I hadn't thought of that. Katrina hadn't passed the inspection at Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Assessment until just today, so that was the first thing that came to my mind. I think Aristotle is close to A-Class, but I wouldn't mind it being the example... Titoxd(?!? - help us) 04:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I added a more up to date example in B-class as Antarctica is now a FA, I used the Munich air disaster article one of the most notable airplane crashes in history as a example, I could change the example if needed. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 00:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I also updated the Good article example of Hurricane Katrina with Agriculture as Katrina is A class and is doing well in FAC. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 00:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. The links refer to static versions, so you don't have to update them, but I suppose it's better to give a closer picture of the current state of Wikipedia. Λυδαcιτγ 02:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Wikipedia:Grading scheme?

shouldnt it? -Quiddity 06:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's included from at least 75 pages, so it would have a bit of impact. The main page, which explains this scale, is Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, so Wikipedia:Grading scheme could redirect there. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 06:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, wasnt thinking. the large size of it deceived my template-concept recognition cortex. so it goes :) And will do on the redirect. -Quiddity 08:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When will this be official?

When will this grading system be made official on Wikipedia? This is indeed a grand idea that should be used on every article that is on this project. --Siva1979Talk to me 04:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's already being used by dozens of WikiProjects, and is spreading (albeit slowly) to every article on Wikipedia. What other changes in status are you suggesting? Kirill Lokshin 04:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Tagging it with {{policy}}? Is that really necessary? I mean, Wikipedia:Featured articles doesn't have the tag on it... Titoxd(?!?) 04:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I am very strongly opposed to making any endorsement of GA policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needed-Class?

Any objections to removing "Needed-Class" from the table? Any page marked with it would actually be speedy deleteable under WP:CSD G8, so having it around is rather confusing for new users, in my opinion. Kirill Lokshin 09:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if it stays or goes, but I note that G8 states in part that: "Talk pages of pages that do not exist [should be deleted], unless they contain deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere or notes that would help in creating an article." Thesmothete 16:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Lol, I've had plenty of "notes that would help in creating an article" zapped by over-zealous admins. That's either a new clause or is widely ignored. --kingboyk 16:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've gone ahead and removed it for the time being. If anyone really minds, I'm sure they'll make their appearance shortly ;-) Kirill Lokshin 11:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Articles

It is not right to claim that FAs are supreme stationery entities. They can always be edited for better and usually can be even rewritten for better. Acheiving FA status simply denotes that the article is one of the best in Wikipedia, not that they are in or even close to the best possible state. We should not discourage editing of FAs by saying that they need no further editing. Loom91 10:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

But major rewriting of FAs for no good reason is discouraged in any case; see WP:BOLD#…but don't be reckless!. It's fine to suggest that they can be further improved, but talking about "better structure" is leaning too much towards encouraging people to "experiment" here, in my opinion. Kirill Lokshin 10:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that saying "no further edits are necessary" (emphasis added) is equivalent to saying "FAs are supreme stationary entities" or that they cannot "be edited for better". If significant editing is "necessary" as opposed to being, for example, "desirable" or "helpful", then the article should be considered for down-grading from FA. I fail to see how my edit, which stated "However, additional improvements always remain a possiblity." implied otherwise. However, I appreciate Kirill Lokshin's efforts to try to resolve this. In light of this discussion, I think the second phrase could be slightly loosened. I have removed the word "necessary" "usually" and made and adjustment to the second phrase. Thesmothete 15:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


I believe it is correct to say Featured Articles are not supreme stationery entities. Information is always changing and usually could exist that one piece of information in which makes an article better. However, I do believe featured articles should have some level of protection to them. According to Template:Grading_scheme, "No further editing is necessary unless new published information has come to light; but further improvements to the text are often possible." I agree information could and should always be added or removed if/when needed. However, once an article gains featured status, it becomes a prime target for people who wish to do undermine the ideals of Wikipedia. In short, the article’s potential to be vandalized increases. I propose only registered users should be able to make edits/changes to featured articles. This is not to say they should be restricted to participate in any discussion or talk regarding that article. What this does is it 1) Makes users accountable to their Wikipedia identity (or account), 2) It filters non-experienced non-registered users from ruining the integrity or structure of the article, and 3) It prevents people from hiding behind a set of decimals and numbers (IP address). I acknowledge nothing can stop vandalism, but measures can be taken to protect articles from it. I know there are bots out there that are supposed to "protect". However, I feel extra precaution should be taken towards articles Wikipedia regards closest to encyclopedic information. Killer Swath 01:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B-Class and A-Class templates

Is there any reason the "-Class" part of these tags was removed? It looks quite awkward as it currently is, just having an A or a B there. --Coredesat talk! 20:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm? I assumed that consistency with the other levels—FA, GA, Start, and Stub all omit "-Class" from the label—would be a good thing; is that not your impression? Kirill Lokshin 20:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
It makes sense, it was just a little surprising since I couldn't find any discussion about it. Either that or I'm too used to seeing "-Class" there. :P I guess it's something to get used to, since consistency is always good, unless someone really objects to the change. --Coredesat talk! 04:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article vs. A-class article

I'm still not entirely clear on this.. if an article fails a GA nomination, can it still be considered an A-class article, or should it be at most a B-class? a slighty different question is, must an A-class article meet the GA criteria? yet another slighty different question is, should A-class articles be likely GA candidates? and if so, shouldn't we be nominating A-class articles for GA status? Mlm42 22:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

A-Class means that it potentially meets FA criteria. So, if the article failed a GA nomination, then try to take the advice given at WP:GAC, or otherwise it will be B-Class at most (unless you believe the reason it was failed was spurious—in that case, ask at Wikipedia:Good articles/Review). A-Class articles don't have to be nominated for GA status as a prerequisite; however, in many cases, it would be nice to nominate them to get an opinion from someone who isn't a subject matter expert. Again, it isn't absolutely necessary, though. Titoxd(?!?) 22:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The short answer is "An article can be A-Class without being a GA." Many projects nominate their A-Class articles as GA candidates once they find them - we did this at WP:Chem. Tito's comments are valid, but the situation has been complicated recently because ehe ranking on this page (putting A-Class above GA) has been affected by changes in good article standards. It used to be that there were a fair number of articles tagged as GA lacked decent refs etc, that were clearly B-Class rather than A-Class. The bar for GA seems to have been raised considerably recently, and I think it is now very possible that an article tagged as A-Class could fail GA. This arises because:
  • The A/B type assessments are generally less thorough than a GA review (as typically conducted today).
  • The A-Class definition clearly indicates that things are not perfect - indeed it suggests peer review. This slightly fuzzy definition is needed for a quick assessment, since you can't scrutinize every sentence for grammatical errors, etc. It's a quick and easy way of saying, "Looks like this article is pretty much there."
Of course if a GA reviewer has pointed out specific flaws in the article, as Tito suggests it's probably difficult to ignore these and say "Well it's A-Class anyway." The usual situation in 1.0 assessments I have done is that I am fairly liberal in tagging something as A-Class if it looks really nice, but if flaws are indicated then it's dropped to B-Class until those flaws are addressed. This is in a situation where only one person is making the call, as we have to review thousands of articles for 1.0. Many of the WikiProjects experienced with this grading scheme have some sort of "A-Class candidates review page" before an article is promoted to A-Class. That way any flaws missed in an initial assessment can be spotted and (hopefully) dealt with, and consensus can be reached that "This article is A-Class." This is obviously more satisfactory. Once the "inline refs" debate at GA has been resolved, we should discuss the repercussions of all this for our grading scheme. Walkerma 04:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

okay, i think i see now.. it's just that the phrase "An article can be A-class without being a GA" is somewhat misleading.. after all, a FA quality article isn't neccessarily a GA, since somebody has to nominate it first. But from what i can tell, the answer to my question "Does an A-class article have to meet the GA criteria", the answer seems to be yes - if it is, i think this should be made more clear on the template. Mlm42 07:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

For as long as the GA criteria are sensible, I suppose you could say that. Of course, if GA were to decide that all page names must end with "on wheels" we probably wouldn't expect compliance ;) The key - and simple - point is that this is a sliding scale. A-class is a higher grade than GA. That's about it really. --kingboyk 23:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The GA criteria are not sensible; and it should be removed from this page. Consider, for example, their lastest "in-line citation" snits: Wikipedia:Good_articles/Review#Johann_Sebastian_Bach and Wikipedia:Good_articles/Review#Bourbonnais train accident. In one case, most of the article is matters of general knowledge in the field, backed by several general references. In the other case, the article is a narrative of the accident, drawn from two general sources, with plenty of minor points getting footnotes. Both could stand work before FA, but not much, and not this work. (I should perhaps add that I have not substantially contributed to either article; I think I fixed a typo on Bourbonnais train accident.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is, some users at FA will yell about the article having no inline citations. It's the same in GA. Titoxd(?!?) 18:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Both articles have in-line citations. The railroad accident may need more specific citations for the narrative to be FA; JSBach probably does; but that's two classes up. Furthermore, in both cases, the GA people have not discussed which points need citation, as FA would do; some of them are voting delist without having read the article. (This is not a deduction; they say so.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
And A-Class requires the inline citations as well (because any article listed as an A must have at least a chance of passing FAC), so I'm tempted to kick both articles down to B-Class or lower and delist them from GA myself. Entire sections of the articles (biographical details about Bach, Bach's style, and the recommendations made after the train accident) do not have sufficient levels of citation, particularly because "general knowledge in the field" is rarely a sufficient excuse for not citing an article.
Either way, many editors do take GA status seriously, so it is extremely unlikely it will be removed any time soon. Titoxd(?!?) 19:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear that. A process that is taken seriously should be conducted seriously - and GA has never been conducted seriously. Please contact me if this thread takes off. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do you get an article rated A-Class

Drum and bass was rated as a Good Article recently, I was wondering how I would go about applying for an A-Class rating... Nowhere is there an indication of how to do this. Themindset 23:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've always considered A-class to mean "FA quality but not quite an FA yet". Something like Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater which is practically FA standard but needs a copyedit and hasn't been put through FAC yet. That's just me though. -- Steel 23:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
As a general rule, asking the project that would be doing the rating tends to be pretty helpful. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 23:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you might want to ask at e.g. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music genres. Looks like a great article, I'll read it when I have time. One thing jumps out at me though: your inline citations are only from web resources, although you do reference books. Some of the material on the early days of jungle - in particular your selection of which tracks were important - I would like to see cited, preferably from print sources. Anything which could be your opinion or which could be disputed should be cited. From what I've read so far, brilliance of the prose shouldn't be a problem. --kingboyk 23:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
hmm.. the more and more i think about this, the more i realise that GA and A-class are pretty much the same thing.. the main difference being GA are reviewed independently, and the criteria are clearly defined (or, in the process of being clearly defined, at the moment), while A-class articles can be tagged by anyone, and the critia are considerably less well defined. i mean, "At the stage where it could at least be considered for featured article status".. what does that mean.. couldn't any GA be "at least considered for GA status"? if you look at the criteria in the grading scheme right now, i don't see any real differences between A-class and GA, except that GA's have gone through the process, and A-class haven't neccessarily..
perhaps it's a good idea to merge the two classes into a A/GA class - it would avoid confusion. To have the 1st and 3rd tiers being independently reviewed, and not the 2nd tier, seems a little silly anyway. Mlm42 10:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Bleh. "A-class articles can be tagged by anyone" isn't true in all cases; see, for example WP:MHA#Requests for A-Class status. I strongly object to taking the actual WikiProjects out of the loop more on this issue, particularly given that the GA process does not have exactly the most stellar track record. Kirill Lokshin 16:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
but the WikiProjects wouldn't be taken out of the loop.. i said merge the A and GA classes. it seems to me the criteria have very little difference. merging the two would mean all A class articles are in the class, and GA articles are in the class.. it would avoid confusing editors and reviewers who are trying to figure out the difference between the two classes. Mlm42 16:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
That would create a class where half the articles are identified through one process and half through a very different process, though, with the result that, looking at an article with that rating, it would be difficult to say, at a glance, anything about its quality. Kirill Lokshin 16:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Please, don't even go there. I don't know if you're aware or not but there's a lot of controversy around GA at the moment, and the system is unstable as a result. The point with A-class is that it's assessed by the WikiProjects; GA is assessed by one person who may know nothing about the topic in hand. (That's not slagging off GA which I personally support, but Kirill doesn't so don't give him any fuel for the GA fire ;)) FA is a peer review process, where (supposedly) subject matter experts, expert writers, fair use specialists etc review an article collectively. --kingboyk 16:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
maybe i'm too much of an optimist, but it seems that there should be a way to have articles that supposedly satisfy the same criteria (though this is determined through different methods) in the same class in the grading system..
and i think you are drawing too much of a divide between the two methods.. i mean, ideally (i'm definitely too much of an optimist) if the GA process were more respected, and perhaps used more than a single reviewer, then.. well, alright, maybe that if is too big. Mlm42 16:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
A month late into the thread, but writing it down for future reference anyways: A-Class articles are supposed to pass a stricter criteria: WP:WIAFA. In practice, they are articles that are ready for shipping at FAC, and which have a chance of passing "as-is". Several projects would loudly protest the merger of A-Class and GA-Class; MILHIST comes to mind, and Tropical cyclones would strongly object as well. Titoxd(?!?) 07:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request: allow "Template:xx-Class" to create direct links

This is a somewhat technical request: Check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Filmmaking - scroll down 2 or 3 screens, on the right side there is a yellow bar and at the bottom of this bar there is a list of filmmaking articles by quality - with the total numbers in each category, and links to these quality classes (FA: 3, A: 2, GA: 7 etc.). Problem is, the links (FA, A, GA etc.) link to the general page Category:FA-Class articles instead of the much more relevant page Category:FA-Class Filmmaking articles. I've tried fixing it myself, but it boils down to the template pages Template:FA-Class to Template:Stub-Class allowing a parameter to be passed ("which project") that it will link through. Since the talk pages of those template pages redirect here, I was expecting this is the correct place to ask sometbody if this is correct, and how to do it exactly, since "passing parameters" can sometimes be a tricky matter. Thanks! :-) Peter S. 22:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

What I've done as a work around in Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/Wikipedia 1.0 is creat a new table with direct links by the side. You probably want Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index for technical discusson on bot generated pages. --Salix alba (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, that doesn't seem too objectionable of a change, so I wouldn't object to it. However, the default behavior should point to the full listing, though. Titoxd(?!?) 23:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I asked my question at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index. Let's see what happens :-) Peter S. 09:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Btw it's now implemented. See Wikipedia_talk:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Index#Request:_allow_.22Template:xx-Class.22_to_create_direct_links. Peter S. 20:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] images for different classes

i'm not sure about these new images.. i definitely don't like the stub having a red X next to it. the first time i saw it, actually it made me think of something else - the check-mark next to a B-class rating makes it look like somebody has 'seconded' the B-class rating.. which isn't the case, but was an interesting idea. in general, though, i don't see what the new images add.. Mlm42 14:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I removed the images earlier but was quickly reverted. Since there is additional opposition, I will remove the images again. Pagrashtak 04:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
They give symbols for the classes, but sice nobody wants them, never mind. Eyu100 04:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection of Class templates

I think full protection of the {{B-Class}} etc. templates, is a bit too strict. semi-protection would prevent any vandle problems, of which there have been none I'm aware of. As a rule meta:Protected pages considered harmful. --Salix alba (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The relevant policy here is Wikipedia:High-risk templates. Someone made a small change to {{Needed-Class}} and the job queue went up to 200,000 articles; Needed-Class is the least used of our templates, so you can imagine what will happen if someone adds a vandalistic image to {{Start-Class}}, which is transcluded at least several million times inside Wikipedia.. There's really no need to edit these templates at all, as any substantial changes should be discussed somewhere (preferably here) anyways, so there shouldn't be any issues here. Titoxd(?!?) 01:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Tito here. We've been very lucky so far, and anything used millions of times should require thorough discussion before being edited anyway. Thanks, Tito! Walkerma 03:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image thumbnail for A class

FA class has a barnstar and a GA class has a round stamp, but none for the "A" class article. If GA class has one, then A class must have an image. I am thinking something like a tick mark to indicate quality. Any ideas? Idleguy 09:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was already tried, it drew many complaints, so they were removed. Besides, the only reason FAs and GAs have images is that those are the images used by the external processes that designate them, not the ones we want to use. Titoxd(?!?) 18:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
My favourite icon to use would be the letter "A" - this would avoid the need for image loading, and would indicate quality...! :) Walkerma 20:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • So there's no idea on the A class not having a logo?; while the one above (FA) and one below (GA) have a logo, it does sound lonely for the A class article. Idleguy 05:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link for consistancy?

All templates aside from the Needed-Class template have notation such as '''{{#if:{{{category|}}}|[[:Category:{{{category}}}|Stub]]|[[:Category:Stub-Class articles|Stub]]}}''' to introduce a link to the project's corresponding category. Current class also lacked this, but I added it. Anyone agree that it should appear there? -Runningonbrains 21:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Current-Class and Future-Class are not officially part of the assessment scale (meaning Mathbot doesn't read them), but I can't see a good reason why they can't have it... Titoxd(?!?) 21:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow you comment fast...lol. But anyway, I reverted my change to the current template...apparently there is no main Category:Current-Class articles or Category:Needed-Class articles aside from individual projects, so it produced a redlink on article talk pages. -Runningonbrains 21:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category for usefulness and practicality

Might I request per the above comment by Runningonbrains that a category heirarchy be set up so that the change made can stay?

The reason I ask is because it's all well and good having a "needed class", but unless it's possible to find out from a projects article rating table just what article it is that's needed, what use is the rating to a project? I know the tables are primarily for 1.0, but feedback as a result of 1.0 ratings (through article improvements) is one of the things that drives improvements in projects, and thus wikipedia as a whole. That way, everyone's a winner :) Crimsone 04:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean here. You mean to create a Needed-Class meteorology articles category to be read by the bot? You probably want to bring that up at WP:1.0/I's talk. Titoxd(?!?) 04:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
My word! quick isn't a fitting description! lol
I was actually coming back to remove my comment. It seems I'd lost the plot a bit, and I've since found what I'm looking for - We do have a category - it just isn't linked to our custom table a the moment. :) Thanks for replying though. Crimsone 04:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restoration

{{editprotected}} The template is not as it is supposed to be. The wikitext was not poperly entered so the template is not shown in a box as it should. Please fix it so it can be put on articles.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Parent5446 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The template is not protected, so you can edit it yourself. I also do not see what edit you are suggesting, as the template should never be used in any article. Please explain what problem you see in more detail. Kusma (討論) 12:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Small syntax change"

Well it was only a small change, but it made a whole heap of uses of these templates (those that omitted the "Category:" from the category parameter) break. See for example Wikipedia:WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia/A-League player project, which is just a massive bank of red links now. I don't see how this change is useful, and although not harmful causes a huge amount of small, annoying changes to be made to places where the category parameter is used. Could someone please explain what the advantage of this is? The only reason I can make out is that someone possibly coded their bot wrongly and rather than fixing that and re-running, they changed this... – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 11:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The template was shrunk to allow more instances of the template to fit within the 2 MB memory limit, as shown on Special:Expandtemplates. At least that is what I heard. You may want to ask Oleg Alexandrov, who codes the bot and made the change. Titoxd(?!?) 18:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parameter for specific project category

In the {{WikiProject Louisville}} project banner template, I would like to have templates like {{Start-Class}} specified therein to allow a parameter that provides for category placement specificity. For example, I would like to specify {{Start-Class|Louisville}}, and this would place the article in Category:Start-Class Louisville articles. I would rather people be able to go directly to the WikiProject Louisville start-class articles category rather than the umbrella category for all start-class articles. Simple, right? :) Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 00:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This already works, but you need to specify the full category name; for example, {{Start-Class|category=Category:Start-Class Louisville articles}} produces style="background: #ffaa66; text-align: center;" | Start. Kirill Lokshin 01:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh ok. Thanks! I must've misunderstood what I was looking at.  :) Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 02:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Embarassed!

Sorry about my edit and thanks for the revert! I'm embarassed. First time I'm editing a WikiProject Assessment page. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem. :-) Kirill Lokshin 03:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to update B-class criteria

Discussion can be found here. Nifboy 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not there anymore. Please fix link. 38.100.34.2 02:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The proposal died and was archived. Nifboy 03:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Example FA needs fixing.

The selected version of the Gilwell Park article that's referenced as the canonical example of a FA has a broken image link at the top of the article - that's hardly acceptable in an FA! You either need to pick a later version of that article or use something else. SteveBaker 01:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Switched it to the featured version of Supernova. Titoxd(?!?) 01:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] template broken

the template is broken and looks like this -

style="background: #66ffff; text-align: center;" | A
The template isn't broken, it's meant to use in tables. Like this:
Class
A-class A
B-class B
C-class Start

etcetera / 81.226.131.216 23:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion

I'm thinking that articles with trivia sections should be considered a "start" or B-class on the scale. Like, when an article looks like it is a GA class and above, the trivia section should downgrade it. I don't see any mention of trivia sections in the scale, so I really think it should be mentioned. THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED! 16:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivia sections are just one part of the assessment criteria reviewers use. Different reviewers have different views of how important trivia sections are, or even if they are important at all. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 03:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I also hate trivia sections. However, for some topics "trivia" are a little more relevant, and I think it's hard to quantify. There are a lot of factors to weigh when reviewing. This should probably be a factor mentioned in the quality guidelines somewhere, but I think how it counts will ultimately be down to the individual reviewer of the individual article. Thanks, Walkerma 04:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parameter to link to project-specific classes?

Would it be reasonable to add a parameter (or system of parameters) to this template so that the links in the left-column could be to project-specific categories instead of the global ones?

e.g. perhaps {{Grading scheme|project=Filmmaking}} would link to Category:FA-Class Filmmaking articles instead of Category:FA-Class articles

Also, it would be nice if there was a way to add rows to this table for non-standard classes, like List class. Is there a clever template syntax that could be used for that? Thanks. jhawkinson 03:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

One thing about this worries me a lot with this (otherwise good) suggestion - the fact that it may lead to the whole grading scheme losing its uniformity. The real power of this system is that Start-class means approximately the same thing to everyone on WP. I realise that there are differences - there are a couple of projects that require refs for their B-Class articles, for example - but if everyone goes their own way the system could fall apart! From June/July we will have a bot trawling through these articles picking some out for our next DVD, and that selection depends on a B being a B in every project. (Even the French Wikiepdia are using the same system!) So I think we must keep this template as a uniform standard across all projects. Walkerma 04:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, the foo-Class templates already accept a category= parameter that causes them to link to a category, like {{FA-Class|category=FA-Class Filmmaking articles}} so it seems like a change here would only be paralleling that existing feature. Also, if you're looking at a WikiProject page, chances are you are interested in finding the FA-class articles in that project, not all the ones that exist universally...So it seems like the case for having the parameter in {{Grading scheme}} is even stronger than the case for having it in {{FA-Class}}, etc. jhawkinson 04:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah yes! Sorry I missed the point there, well it's getting late here. This DOES seem reasonable to me now. Maybe Tito or Kirill could comment, and perhaps add such a parameter if they think it's OK? Walkerma 04:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think these would be a very nice features to add. I will go ahead and do this probably sometime later today. For the links to project-specific categories, I'll add the {{Grading scheme|project=Filmmaking}} parameter. This parameter would be used for the category links. I'll also do this for {{Importance Scheme}}.

As for the non-article classes ({{List-Class}}, {{Template-Class}}, {{Dab-Class}}, {{NA-Class}}, and {{Cat-Class}}), I can think of 2 ways to handle this. By default, they should be hidden, since they are non-standard. I could either make a new parameter like "|nonarticle_classes = dab, template, ..." or I could show them individually when "|Template_example = " is specified. Even when the parameter is left blank, it could be shown. I prefer this second option to the first. It is both easier to program and encourages project-specific examples to be used. If there are no objections, I'll start on this later today. Also, if anyone uses other common non-article classes, let me know. For each of these non-article classes, a description will be needed for Criteria, Reader's experience, Editor's experience, and Example. --Scott Alter 06:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Go ahead. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I just completed the first part of this - being able to link to project-specific categories. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Assessment for an example. I did this for both {{Grading scheme}} and {{Importance Scheme}}. While I'm making changes, does anyone like the "Article progress grading scheme [  v • d • e  ]" heading? I'd almost think this should be at least a semi-protected template and we should not encourage people to be changing it. --Scott Alter 22:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Articles

I remove it here for all the reasons now to be found on Wikipedia talk:Good articles. Briefly, it is a strongly disputed process, of extremely dubious results; a request to move it to a less prejudicial name has alteady produced much sentiment that it should be done away with altogether. Its standards are certainly inconsistent; the same discussion has produced proposals that it be the minimum acceptable for a non-deleted article, and that it be merged with FA. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think removing it is right, even if it is deprecated or going away. People look at the Grading scheme template to find out what a given grade means. If I find an article with grade GA, I should still be able to look it up in the template to find out what GA means. Perhaps you want to mark it "deprecated" instead? jhawkinson 22:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
How's this? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
...And I've reverted you. There is nothing like consensus here, don't remove it until you get some. --tjstrf talk 00:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
We actually had a long debate on this issue earlier in the year, and despite the fact that I was the one proposing removing GA-Class from the scheme, I backed down when it was clear that many people felt strongly it should stay. No one whould unilaterally change a grading scheme used on over 600,000 articles without discussing it first, and the discussion must involve the WP1.0 editorial team since we are the ones overseeing this scheme (and also using the information). However, an individual WikiProject can certainly decide to opt out of using the GA level if they wish. Walkerma 00:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It should not stay without warning that the process is despised, of no clear meaning, and may lead to rejection at FA. Please read the present discussion at Wikipedia talk:Good articles, or, better yet, join in. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I've read that discussion page, and that is exactly why I know to revert you. While there are a lot of people expressing minor concerns and ways to improve, you're the only one yelling "ABOLISH!!! ABOLISH!!!".
And no, we don't need a warning that the grading system has mixed results, because that is true of every single ranking on this page, even FA. --tjstrf talk 19:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
No, I'm still trying to fix it, or move it to a non-prejudicial name, where I will be happy to ignore it. Girolamo Savaronola and Steve Block !voted to abolish it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I do think this sentence important; there is no consensus on what GA means, if anything:

GA class has been compared to B-class; mergers with A-class or even FA-class have been proposed. Its meaning is uncertain; its value disputed.

None of the following opinions are mine. Many of them are by regulars and defenders of GA.

These can be summarized by: there is radical uncertainty about where GA lies on this scale; there is doubt about whether it ought to be on this scale at all. These opinions should be clearly indicated, for the benefit of newbies who will otherwise be led to use GA as just another rung on the ladder. To prevent this is censorship; and there are remedies for that. I will accept mediation; the Cabal seems to be working slightly better this week. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a case to be made for moving GA out of this scale, although it certainly should not be done without discussion, and may be better decided at the WikiProject level. In particular, this question has nothing to do with arguments to abolish GA or change its name, but rather with the uncertainty over what it means, and the fact that it assesses articles in a completely different way, and with different criteria, to the Wikipedia 1.0 process. Steve Baker, who is a strong and particularly coherent supporter of GA, has made a compelling statement at Wikipedia talk:Good articles#On the A vs GA debate. Although he finds it helpful to place GA between B and A, some of his arguments suggest it may not be. I have added my own comments on the issue there. Geometry guy 15:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub example

Why was the stub example changed from Coffee table book (as of July 2005) to Dave Briggs (as of June 2007) ? The Dave Briggs stub actually looks too good to be a typical example of a stub (though it's a close call) -- it has a link, a box, and the key info. Coffee Table, by contrast, is more typical of a stub that someone would write in just as a placeholder. More importantly, as the older stub, people can see how Coffee Table book progressed over time into a half-decent article, which is probably more instructive and helpful to editors trying to understand the overall progression of articles. I propose that we revert. Thesmothete 16:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Thes

I noticed the previous example was a cople of years old so I thought I'd refresh it with something recent. Violentbob 20:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can appreciate that, but let's look for a stub that is the best example for the benefit of the template. It might not be coffee table -- perhaps it is something else. But I really don't think Briggs, although newer, is better. Thesmothete 21:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coding screwed up

{{editprotected}} Judging from the look, I think something happened and the code broke. OhanaUnitedTalk page 07:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't immediately see the problem; could you elaborate, by chance? – Luna Santin (talk) 19:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Nothing apparently wrong for me (currently using Firefox 2). Which browser are you using, what appearance does the problem take, and which change to the template caused the problem (try viewing versions from the history)? --ais523 09:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Disabling edit protected tag for the moment. If you can list specific change(s) that need to be made to fix any problems, you can of course re-enable it. Resurgent insurgent 09:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing bias against online sources, and harmonizing with WP:V policy

I've changed the wording within A-Grade to correspond to the current wording of WP:V. At the same time, I've removed serious bias against online sources. Whether information is published via paper or websites makes no difference. What matters is independence, fact checking, and accuracy. Jehochman Hablar 09:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Talking of wording, it's crap throughout that table. Why doesn't someone fix it all? To start with, indicative and imperative moods are mixed up ("Provides a well-written, reasonably clear and complete description of the topic, as described in How to write a great article. It should be (?is) of a length suitable for the subject ..."). And ... um ... try "It is of suitable length for the topic". The whole thing is riddled with glitches. Tony 11:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sample FA

Should the sample FA be added by the main editor/nominator of that article,[2] when it only recently passed FAC with copyedit objections? Of course, it didn't displease me TS was added back in April by an uninvolved editor, based on unanimous FAC support.[3] [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not cool, but then, it's a natural instinct. Since Tourette was passed unanimously, I'll switch back to it. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
On second thought, I reviewed that FAC, so I'll hold until someone else even less involved decides to change it back. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I can think of several FACs that passed unanimously that could be used, but I also reviewed most of them, so will wait for someone else to change. But, a recently-passed FA, without a unanimous FAC, shouldn't be our sample, and for the editor to add it him/herself raises eyebrows ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It's very disappointing that the article was promoted to FA status despite its generally poor standard of prose. This is typical of the director's careless attitude to this aspect of FACs. It's downright embarrassing to have this article paraded as an example of one in which "no further editing is necessary". Tony 11:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List/NA class cat links

Upon specifying a project, why do the category links point to "List-Class <project> pages" and "NA-Class <project> pages" when very few, if any, projects use these conventions (based on Category:NA-Class articles and Category:List-Class articles)? --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 09:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template linking consistency?

Featured article FA
A
Good article GA
B
Start
Stub
Category
Disambig
Image
List
Template
NA
Needed
Portal
???

Of the common classes used with article assessment (see the table on the right), it appears that all but four of the templates link directly to their associated parent category. For example, the B on {{B-Class}} links to Cat:B-Class articles. Is this linking inconsistency caused by design or oversight? If it is an accident, I would propose the following:

Thanks, Kralizec! (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it was by design. These templates were all created at different times and were never standardized to match the others. All of these templates are protected, so you need an administrator to do this (or to unprotect them temporarily and I could do this). There are also other changes that should be made to the common templates with categories at Cat:Articles by quality (items crossed out have been completed):
--Scott Alter 03:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
How would any modifications to the main assessment templates (e.g., A-Class and such) would affect the number of them that can be displayed on Special:Expandtemplates? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 04:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but making these changes to the main assessment templates should not effect their display on any page other than Template:A-Class. The noinclude tags would not transclude to other pages. Instead of seeing the HTML used to format the cell at {{A-Class}}, you would see the actual formated cell (like {{Image-Class}}). --Scott Alter 04:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} {{FA-Class}}, {{A-Class}}, {{GA-Class}}, {{B-Class}}, {{Start-Class}}, {{Stub-Class}}, {{-Class}}, {{Needed-Class}}, and {{Portal-Class}} should be modified to display as a table when viewing the template pages directly. This should be done by adding this at the very beginning of the template:

<noinclude>{|
!</noinclude>

and this immediately after the existing <noinclude>:

|}

Additionally, {{NA-Class}} is missing the closing tag for the table, and it needs a |}. {{List-Class}} can be used as an example of a class that properly uses this formatting. --Scott Alter 05:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, the same question stands: Will making these templates bigger cause the large tables on WP:1.0/I to hit the 1 MB transclusion limit? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 05:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
While I have not seen any official documentation of such a transclusion limit, I do not believe it would change the bytes transcluded. The table coding I would like to include is entirely within <noinclude></noinclude> tags. All of this should be parsed before it is transcluded. If the transclusion limit included items within <noinclude></noinclude> tags, the first place to reduce the bytes is by removing:
{{pp-template|small=yes}}
----
'''''NB:''' This is not a stub template. Therefore, it is not to be placed on articles. It is used in assessment summaries for the WP1.0 project; see [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment]].''
[[Category:Classification templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]
This is standard in all of the -Class articles. If it were included in the transclusion limit, I'd imagine that this text would have been removed long ago. Adding my changes would still produce the same results when the template is put in Special:ExpandTemplates. --Scott Alter 05:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The documentation is at Wikipedia:Template limits. Noinclude sections are counted, which is why the {{documentation}} template was developed. Making the templates longer probably is a bad idea; moving those comments to the doc page ps probably a good idea. There's no great need to view the templates directly, and a demo table could always be put on a doc subpage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A-class symbol image

For those who may want to use it as a graphical element: Image:A-class-wiki-symbol.PNG.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protected?

The template at the top of this page says the template is protected, but there is no actual indication that it really is, other than that template (i.e. no little padlock) --Thinboy00 talk/contribs 00:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:A-Class

{{editprotected}} Can an admin please add this image, (Image:Symbol a class.svg), to the A-Class template to resemble the FA and GA-Class templates. I ask this because A-Class is higher than GA-Class, yet lower than FA-Class, but there is no image for A-Class (unlike GA and FA-Class). -- LAX 17:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The message that was at the top of the page was wrong. I have removed it - the page is infact not protected. Davnel03 18:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Aah, the Template:A-Class is protected, but that template talkpage redirects here, hence why this has been posted here. In any situation, can an admin add the image to Template:A-Class? Davnel03 18:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Bad idea. If we must have an image for A-Class, let us have a unique one, not just a modification of the GA image. I am against any measure which serves to associate A-Class ratings with the GA process. Kirill 18:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need an image for A-Class? What's wrong with the letter A—I think that's pretty clear. I'm disabling the editprotected template, as it appears that this is not consensus. Pagrashtak 22:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grading Template Needs Copy Editing

Would it be possible to get the text of the Grading template changed?

"Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then add comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article."

'and/or' isn't really valid so it's kind of funny to see it in a statement regarding grading of articles. Simply using "or" is sufficient in this context. Either that or it should be changed to "and/exclusive or" but even that is implied by a simple "or" while avoiding the awkwardness of reading "and/exclusive or".

This page also provides a quick synopsis regarding why and/or shouldn't be written http://www.geocities.com/thorin.geo/and_or_invalid.html

Wikipedia even has an entry about "and/or" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.96.11 (talk) 14:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Done 206.47.249.251 20:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New documentation sub pages

{{editprotected}} This is somewhat of a continuation of the above #Template linking consistency?, but the discussion has changed gears and brought about a new topic. I just created a new documentation page, designed for all of the -Class templates. The documentation page itself is located at Template:Grading scheme/doc/class, but it can not be properly viewed through that page. It is designed so that the one page can be used as the same documentation for all of the -Classes. The proper documentation link to use on the -Class templates would be {{Documentation|Template:Grading scheme/doc/class}}, and it would be placed directly on the -Class template pages in place of the current note. A sample can be viewed at Template:FA-Class/doc. Replacing the current note on all of the -Class pages with this will significantly reduce the pre-expand include size when the templates are transcluded. --Scott Alter 05:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As per the trend to transclude documentation, and per the discussion above, could someone please go through all of the article classifications (listed at Template:Grading scheme/doc/see also), and replace the current documentation with this:

<noinclude>{{Documentation|Template:Grading scheme/doc/class}}</noinclude>

So each of the templates would look something like this:

style="background: #6699ff; text-align: center;" | [[Image:Featured article star.svg|14px|✓|Featured article]] '''{{#if:{{{category|}}}|[[:{{{category}}}|FA]]|[[:Category:FA-Class articles|FA]]}}'''<noinclude>
{{Documentation|Template:Grading scheme/doc/class}}</noinclude>

The {{pp-template}} and categories are within the transcluded documentation, so they can be removed. --Scott Alter 00:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The page isn't protected - you can make the edit yourself. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This page isn't protected, but each of the -Class templates are. All of their talk pages redirect to here. A list of the article classification templates (all protected) can be seen here. --Scott Alter 16:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes. Sorry for the delay. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks good, and now the pre-expand include sizes have been reduced. They could be reduced even more by removing the "{{pp-template|small=yes}}" - this is also transcluded from the documentation subpage. --Scott Alter 20:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The new preprocessor no longer worries about pre-expand sizes, and they aren't output any more. Try checking them to see what I mean. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming Cat-Class to Category-Class and Dab-Class to Disambig-Class (their full names)

{{editprotected}} Currently, all of the classes, except for {{Cat-Class}} and {{Dab-Class}}, use same name for their page, class displayed, and category. Here are a few examples:

Template name {{Start-Class}} {{List-Class}} {{Template-Class}} {{Cat-Class}} {{Dab-Class}}
Display Start List Template Category Disambig
Category Cat:Start-Class articles Cat:List-Class articles Cat:Template-Class articles Cat:Category-Class articles Cat:Disambig-Class articles

I would like to rename {{Cat-Class}} to {{Category-Class}}, and {{Dab-Class}} to {{Disambig-Class}}. Doing so provides consistency with the other classes, and is more intuitive for editors - the class they assign is the actual name of the class. Currently, the redirects are in the opposite direction. Making these changes will have no effect on any of the pages currently using either template, and it will not have an effect on WikiProject assessments or the WP 1.0 bot. This is evident by the 4 targets (to the actual template and the redirect for both classes) each having several thousand links. Performing these renames would also allow for the new, standardized documentation of the templates to link to the correct categories. --Scott Alter 03:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Half done - the category one is done. I'll move the other one later this morning. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Done. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Disambig isn't even its full name! StewieGriffin! • Talk Sign 09:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slight alteration to color scheme

Hey everyone! I'm proposing a slight alteration to the color scheme, here's a comparison:

Featured article FA
A
Good article GA
B
Start
Stub
Category
Disambig
Image
List
Template
NA
Needed
Portal
???
Image:R-Pfeil rechts.svg
Featured article FA
A
GA
B
Start
Stub
Category
Disambig
Image
List
Template
NA
Needed
Portal
???

I think it's a little better due to the fact that it's not unbelievably fucking retarded! Let me know what you think. —Figure (talk) 02:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I think we prefer the current system thanks. Walkerma (talk) 02:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Walkerma. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It's a wiki. I'm "we" too. —Figure (talk) 06:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
And with me that's four. There's no improvement in the proposed scheme, as the difference between all the colors is negligible, hence the colors lose their effectiveness. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Three, actually. Read more carefully. I guess my only question is, who is the target audience that can't distinguish between words without their being covered in garishly colored rectangles, and why are they editing an encyclopedia? "A" and "B" are different letters, doesn't that suffice to distinguish them? It would be nice to read a talk page without the visual onslaught on every single article. Why the insistence on deliberately bad design? —Figure (talk) 01:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needed-class template needs linkage to its category, text-align, icons, and more

Here are a few requests. - LA @ 23:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  1. The Needed-Class template needs a link to its categories.
  2. I am creating a table where I would like these text align:left NOT centered.
  3. I would like to turn off the star in the FA-Class and FL-Class templates and the circled plus sign in the GA-Class template.
  4. List-Class should be above Stub-Class (Lists can also be stubs).
  5. Not all classes are represented in the Grading scheme table: Future, Needed, Disambig, Redirect, Portal, and Image.
  6. Not all classes are represented in the Quality statistics table: Future, Needed, Disambig, Redirect, Portal, Cateogory, Image, Template, and NA.
  7. Needed-Class color to #cc2200 to match the color of a red link.
    1. Maybe.
    2. Use template substitution and CSS. Adding more conditionals makes the code bloated, and these templates are designed to use hundreds of times on a page, so they must be lean.
    3. Again, substitution. Using a switch to turn off the star would add unnecessary complexity to the template.
    4. List-Class is a non-standard class, as it is not an assessment of quality, but of article type. The exact placement is a matter of dispute.
    5. Future, Needed, Disambig, Redirect, Portal, Category, Image, Template, and NA-Classes are also non-standard classes.
    6. Ditto.
    7. Changing the color of Needed-Class to that value would make it too similar to {{Stub-Class}}, and makes a sharp color contrast with bluelinks, making the text hard to read. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
      1. In the table I want to create, all of the others are linked to the right categories, except Needed-Class which had no link.
      2. I can do it with 8 characters per template if I could edit them.
      3. Are those images really needed in these templates?
      4. Non-standrad classes need monitoring too.
      5. Ditto
      6. Ditto
      7. It was just a thought, though the more it hurts one's eyeballs the more likely one would create the article to rid oneself from hurt. :) - LA @ 00:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for interwiki links

{{editprotected}} Please add interwiki links for the following template:

Thanks --Jutiphan | Talk - 09:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Happy‑melon 10:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional categories

{{editprotected}} I think that the non-standard categories parameters (i.e. List, NA, Template...) should not be to specify a category, but rather just be yes or no to indicate whether it should be included in the table, instead of if an example is given. MrKIA11 (talk) 16:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

...
{{#if:{{{List_example|}}}|
<tr>
{{!}} {{List-Class|category=Category:{{#if:{{{List_cat|}}}|{{{List_cat}}}|List-Class {{{Project|}}} articles}}}}<br /><small>{{tl|List-Class}}</small>
...

↓

...
{{#ifeq:{{{List_cat|}}}|yes|
<tr>
{{!}} {{List-Class|category=Category:List-Class {{#if:{{{Project|}}}|{{{Project}}}}} articles}}<br /><small>{{tl|List-Class}}</small>
...
N Not done This page isn't protected, so you can just make the changes yourself. I did a quick database scan and found that 16 pages contain the "List_example" parameter with this template. Note that only 6 of those articles use List_cat (and none have List_cat = yes), so there might be some problems. You may want to ensure that those pages are not negatively effected with your change. Here's the 16 pages using List_example (with a note on which ones use List_cat, too)
Let me know if you need any help with it. --CapitalR (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I knew it wasn't protected, but no one was was answering, so thanks. I think I can handle it, I just did not know how to find those pages like you did. MrKIA11 (talk) 13:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


I changed the template, but now I was wondering why other classes, such as Portal & Redirect, are not listed? MrKIA11 (talk) 02:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)