Talk:Gravity's Rainbow

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Assessment comments

The following link from the bottom of the page is broken:

Essay of similarities between Gravity's Rainbow and Catch-22 (http://www.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/okla/mccarron24.htm)

The site has apparently been reorganized; the link as it stands now functions properly. Anville 14:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Illuminatus!

Has anyone else noticed how similar GR is to Illuminatus? Both books came out at the same time (I believe GR was first published in 73, and Illuminatus in 75, though the authors of Illuminatus claim it was finished earlier), and explore similar themes. Did one influence the other? Has anyone ever pointed out the similarity of these two books? It seems worth mentioning!--210.240.107.53 (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nirvana References

I took out the Nirvana references. It is well established that, "One night, while hanging out at Cobain's apartment, Vail's Bikini Kill bandmate, Kathleen Hanna, took a can of spray paint and scrawled on the wall, "Kurt smells like Teen Spirit." "(http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/masterpiece/2002/04/15/teen_spirit/index.html?pn=2) -- This is much more plausible than lifting "spirit" and "contagious" from a passage from Gravity's Rainbow. I think it is much more likely that he is simply rhyming "contagious" with "dangerous" rather than pulling an esoteric reference to spirit and contagious from Gravity's Rainbow. If someone has something better than the Modern Word site (which itself is just speculating it appears), feel free to correct me. I just think this appears to be overreaching more than just a bit.

I also couldn't find anything but speculation on the paranoia reference. If anyone has something other than overzealous fans making a tenuous connection -- let me know. I love Pynchon and Nirvana, I just think this is a case of looking for patterns where none exist.

[edit] Plastics

The novel has an incredible amount of material related to the creation of industry, in particular the plastics industry. It couldn't be closer to the creation of the computer industry, as written. The technical writing in GR could be talked about at length. --172.131.99.119 03:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Simpsons?

This exchange may have motivated Pynchon to guest-star in two later episodes, both of which preserve (and satirize) his anonymity by animating him with a paper bag over his head.

This reference to Pynchon appearing in The Simpsons appears - at least to me - to be incorrect. The only episode I know of in which Pynchon voices a character is 'Diatribe of a Mad Housewife'. 'Diatribe' was in season 15 but I am unable to find any other episode in which Pynchon appears as a guest star. Does anyone know which other episode Pynchon appears in? Perhaps it's one where he isn't actually voiced or maybe even one where he isn't credited.

Matthew king 03:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


Never mind... I've found it. Pynchon is also in the episode where Marge gets a new kitchen.
Matthew king 07:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herero?

I am in the middle of GR right now, and am currently reading a section focused on the "tribe suicide" of the Herero. Does anyone know how accurate Pynchon's portrayal of the Herero are?

Also, to the question above, I am fairly certain that Pynchon was indeed in two episodes of 'The Simpsons'.

24.65.150.148 02:00, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derek Gregory

Who is Mr Gregory and is his reference justified? (JonathanG 16:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC))

Well there's a page linking to him. He's a leading geographer, professor at Unviersity of British Columbia and formerly at the University of Cambridge; its currently (possibly) the most influential contemporary book in academic geography. Robdurbar 16:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Postmodernist?

At best, call it postmodern. The ist or ism suffix connotes adherence (however implicit) to a doctrine or school, as opposed to merely falling under just any classification of subject or style.

But furthermore the postmodern is not a genre, not the way the western and science fiction are; a style or a period might be a better term. It's not clear such an assessment can be made with any reasonable objectivity. Perhaps the fact that it is often called "postmodern" ought to be put further on, just not in the first line. This book has also been called modernist.

I'm going to make the first chage--postmodernist to postmodern--and urge that the second also be made.

Surely any categorisation indicates the adherence you mention and it is nothing to do with the suffix. Saying a book is postmodern means that it can be identified as belonging to the postmodernist tradition. I personally don't see anything wrong with calling the novel postmodernist, but hey, we all have to get along, so I'll agree and make the second change :) Martin Hinks 09:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
(Or at least I would if I could see where the second instance is!)
Not a second instance--the second suggested claim was to drop the word "postmodern/postmodernist" from the introductory sentence all together, just preserving it down below. It dtrikes me that it's too much a critical evaluation to be put in such an authoritative position.

No: it's at least similar to, though perhaps not the same as, the difference between calling something "modern" and "modernist" (or the difference between lower-case romantic and upper case Romantic). Not the same, because modernism was a clearly identifiable school, while postmodernism isn't.

But I don't see how you can say that any categorisation indicates such an adherence. I doubt Pynchon would adhere to the (mostly ignorant and confused, I submit) collection of doctrines that go under the name "postmodernism." But whether he does or not has nothing to do with whether his work fits a collection of criteria--which might have nothing to do with doctrinal adherence--for labelling a thing post-modern. That would presumably be the case with authors whose work is--howeverimplausibly--called postmodern when they lived before the term ever came into use. Think here of Rabelais, Cervantes, or Melville being so called, as they on occasion have been.

The difference between modern and modernist is in no way the equivalent of that between postmodern and postmodernist. "Modern" will always mean contemporary or of the present time. Modernism will always be that movement in the first half of the 20th century. "Postmodern" never describes a temporal distinction. "Postmodern" would mean nothing if the movement of "postmodernism" did not exist; whereas "modern" would absolutely still mean what it does with or without modernism. There is no usage of 'postmodern' outside of postmodernism, no matter how much you wish to verbally shy this book away from that movement.
I just noticed where you said they're not the same; but your reasons are all off, if you ask me. One is a movement, one is a time descriptor. Because "postmodern" does, absolutely, denote a movement, saying his book is postmodern but not postmodernist sounds like you're saying something along the lines of: it lived in the era of postmodernism. This is as useless as saying that, oh, say, Tuesdays With Morrie is a "postmodern" novel.
If you're going to go ahead and forgo the finicky shying away, and argue that it's not postmodern at all, you've got a lot of work to do. From what critics say and from my readings of the book it certainly seems postmodernist, among a great many other things, and if this is true it's true regardless of what Pynchon called it.

Chicopac (talk) 23:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

p.s. returning after three months, I've since learned that there is actually a temporal designation described by "postmodernity". Interesting, but still doesn't change the point here of the book's designation. Chicopac (talk) 03:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An Army of Lovers

While Pynchon's statement is quoted correctly ("An army of lovers can be beaten"), it's meaning is opposite to the Plato quote ("army of lovers and their beloved who would be invincible if they could be united by such a tie"). Instead of saying Pynchon's line is a reference -from- Plato, it seems more correct to list it as a reference -to- Plato, since Pynchon reverses the sense of Plato's statement. I'll make the change today. Bob Nelson - 19 October 2006

About the band Army of lovers taking their name from this book: Their page seems to mention that "Their name alludes to a documentary about Rosa von Praunheim, which in turn alludes to the Theban Band." It looks like no-one knows exactly where the name comes from. Any sources anyone? (Interviews or similar) --Sideris 05:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki link

Perhaps there should be a link to the Pynchon wiki/Gravity's Rainbow wiki somewhere in this article? 129.173.108.66 20:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Scription

[edit] Publication date

Seems odd that the exact date of publication is in the first sentence. I checked a couple of other wiki articles on books and usually the year of publication is mentioned in the first sentence, but who cares about the exact date? 68.211.90.204 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Might be worth retaining though as some critics (Weisenburger in particular) see the novel as taking place in specific timeframes dominated by astrology. Given the metatextuality of the novel its real-world publication date, not just year, may be of relevance. Martin Hinks (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Gravitys-Rainbow-722917.jpg

Image:Gravitys-Rainbow-722917.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citing the claim at the article's beginning

Could somebody, less lazy than myself, find links to support the final sentence of this article's introductory paragraph? Some fools doubted it and posted a weasel word citation, smearing their stain of idiocy upon one of our greatest books, but the sentence is far and beyond true in its every facet. I'm not just saying this as a zealous fan, but an experienced literary reader of articles and follower of critics. So, someone who loves this book as much as I and has more time at the moment, eh? eh? Do us the favor? >:D Chicopac (talk) 22:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Mind your language. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll mind my language when I'm asked to do so by someone who includes the word "please" alongside their dog-style command. Maybe, even, if they're kind enough, the word "please" alongside a human-style request.
p.s. I'll mind it anyway ;)151.200.241.146 (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)