Talk:Grandes écoles

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[edit] Too many school

This article don't aim to be a Grande école list. Their are way to many ingenering school listed, half of them don't have article and their statue as grand can make debat. This section need a clean up. Why not take the list of the French article ? Beretta vexee 14:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The list of school in "Influence in French culture" section become ridiculous. Half of the known school are in and that make more than the 5000 announced student. Beretta vexee (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conférence des grandes écoles

The name "grande école" is not a legal definition. There is no mention of it in any text or law. It is purely a sociological creation. There is no such thing as the concept of an "elite school" in France. Rather, what is perceived to be in the elite is called a "grande école". The "Conférence des grandes écoles" is not a recognised body allowed to award any name. It is a purely private association of schools. It has to be noted that following the Ministry of Higher Education audit of Engineering schools and Business Schools in 2004, half of the schools belonging to the Conférence des grandes écoles only were recognised as able to award official degrees. So, if you follow the list given by that association, you will make 2 serious factual mistakes: 1 - You will incorporate many institutions that do not deliver recognised master's degrees. 2 - You will confuse a concept that is in the air and an association that has been created to play with the concept.

"Grand école" is not a legal status, but the main "grands écoles" are also "Grands établissements" ( nearly full autonomies).

It is purely a sociological creation

No it's not, it's a historical survival, the "grands écoles" are Napoleonian invention and was at this time mainly military school ( Polytechnique, Mine, Ponts, etc ...).

The "Conférence des grandes écoles" is not a recognised body allowed to award any name.

It's true, the only real recognized body is the "fr:Commission des titres d'ingénieur" (engineer title commission) and is only for engineering school ( from mechanical to IT and pharmacy). But all the CTI approuved school are not "grand écoles" for example the EPITA was member of the "Conférence des grandes écoles" for nearly 8 years but can deliver a engineer diploma only since this year and is certainly not a "grande". "Grande école" is a multi propose concept, it's largly depend with who you are talking. fr:utilisateur:Beretta_vexee

[edit] IEPs

Nota bene:

  • "Grande Ecole" is not a synonymous of "elite schools". There are some Grandes écoles which are elite schools, and other Grandes écoles are not. And there are other elite schools which do not belong to the category of Grandes écoles. Grande école is not a synonymous of "Great School". This is complex, unfortunately.
  • French "Grandes écoles" is a controversial matter, since schools communication policies induces real bias. Good sources are required!
  • IEP are NOT recognized as "Grandes Ecoles"!It is a recurrent mistake here. See La Conférence des Grandes Ecoles, which is the official institution which is allowed to qualify an institution as such.

Floressas 15:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand this point of view. However, the matter is more complicated than that. The definition of a grande école by the conférence des grandes écoles itself is given on their website: [1]. It clearly applies to the IEP of Paris (though not to the other IEPs). The list given by the conférence is clearely labeled Liste des Ecoles adhérentes de la Conférence des Grandes Ecoles Françaises (list of the members of the conférence). Sciences Po is most often considered a Grande école in France, even if it is not a membre of the conférence. There is no indication that the conférence is more than just an association, with no offical role. Peco

I agree with Peco, Sciences Po is highly selective, independant in its teaching, small compared to universities, and enjoys unique recognition by large companies and State administration. What else is a grande ecole? Moreover, the Conference is only an association, where members can reject your membership application!Tlanson 19:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

This is not serious: an association is an institution, and it is the only one with such a network of high level experts to decide. Its status is not a serious argument: there are many associations in the US which are the only one allowed to give a precise title ( AACSB for instance). It has enough credibility, no other institution has. And do you really think that French State is not officially involved in the selection? The association is the only one which is mentionned by the governement about the topic: http://www.education.gouv.fr/sup/bces2001/f232.htm . As most Grandes Ecoles are semi-private, such a kind of institution (peer-control regulation) is easily understandable and efficient, and it is an official one. But enough about it.

Sc-po is related to CPU ( Conférence des présidents des universités.), so it is impossible that it belongs to the other category.

Many non-rigourous journalists assert that the IEP is a Grande Ecole("Sciences Po is most often considered a Grande école in France" as you said ). But opinion and public manipulation is not truth, and has much less value than a serious peer review selection in the before-mentioned official association; and there is no reason to think that their work is not good. For Sc-po, since it has a really objectionable communication policy, one should be very careful. An opinion is admitted in Wikipedia if grounded on expert, reliable and unbiaised sources, and the ONLY institution which has enough expertise and reputation to decide is the Conference.

Then, "elite school", why not, since it is wide and vague, but "grandes ecole", which is a precise concept and label, is too affirmative. Sc-Po looks like a grande école, but it is not labelled as such. Usual wikipedians are not educational experts (no more than public opinion), and do not have to decide if an institution fits a definition or not (Strange quality process!!), as you tried to do. If Sc-po is, why not Dauphine or Paris 1 at bac+5 level, or Celsa, or EHESS ? For Dauphine(which has the same status than Sc-Po and the same kind of characteristics) people always say that it is a Grande Ecole; could I accept that on Wikipedia? Many universities or others (UTC Compiègne) have some features that looks like Grandes écoles' (Usual imitation process)

The main problem with such a categorization is that it will clearly induce foreigners into mistake ( it occured before, and it is very boring and difficult to suppress recurrent mistakes: hence my remarks at the top of the page.) . Precision and expertise is always prefered to speculative opinion on Wikipedia.

As a teacher and researcher, I cannot allow opinion to guide Wikipedia's editorial patterns.

Floressas 13:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


PS: Sc-po is less selective than most grandes ecoles; there is no comparision between Polytechnique (or business or engineers schools in Paris) and Sc-Po for instance. Some of my friends studied only one month to enter at the 4th year level; quite easy according to them.

AFAIK to enter at the 4th year level at Sciences Po, you have to study for at least 3 years before, or to have several years of work experience. Apokrif 16:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
It's totally stupid comparison. Any school is less selective than Polytechnique. Nearly all Science Po alumni are hight profile civil servant or politician. Science Po is highly selective but even politechnique have reserved sit for foreign students, Science Po is prestigious, Science Po alumni like ENA are omnipresent in french's political life. Science Po is a "Grand école". fr:utilisateur:Beretta_Vexee

My intention is not to troll here. I will only restate that nobody is entitled to decide officially whether this or that is a grande école or not. It's like the grands corps : no official definition.

But I will point some errors in your statement.

As most Grandes Ecoles are semi-private

You cannot ignore that sciences po enjoys a semi-public status, being managed by the FNSP, a private foundation. Furthermore, many grande école are completely public.

Sc-po is related to CPU ( Conférence des présidents des universités.), so it is impossible that it belongs to the other category.

This is false. A school can belong to more than one organisation.

and has much less value than a serious peer review selection in the before-mentioned official association

I agree with you if what you say is that only the conférence decides whether a school can be a membre of the conférence.

Sc-po is less selective than most grandes ecoles; there is no comparision between Polytechnique

I understand that you are studying at polytechnique. So I can reassure you: almost no school in France is as selective as polytechnique, except for Normale and the ENA. I do not challenge that. But many members of the conférence are very much less selective than scpo. So this is not a criterion.

Peco 20:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


It is a fact Sc-Po is not a member of the Conference, and therefore it is not right to say that Sc-Po is a Conference member. However it is absolutely not true that "only the Conference decides whether a school is a Grande Ecole or not". Schools with low reputation can claim they are Grandes Ecoles because of membership. But at the same time, you would have to admit "Grande Ecole" is as much a common understanding of prestige and elite as it is about membership: EGIM is a member, but most people won't know it and won't name it a Grande Ecole. For Science Po, it is the opposite. Basically, Grande Ecole is not a protected name, which means no organization has authority on who is and who is not a Grande Ecole.Tlanson 01:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


Hello people, this is to inform you that the article dedicated to SUPAERO has been placed into the peer review thread. I invite you to take a peek at it and say what you think of it. Thanks! Flambe 04:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polytechnique

"While École Polytechnique is run by the Ministry of Defence and its French students are reserve officers in training, it is no longer a military academy and few of its students embrace a military career afterwards." This means that some students do embrace a military career, so I don't see why it is not a military academy (the article does not define "military academy", and military academy only says "Their exact definition depends on the country"). Apokrif 16:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

To be really acute, it should be said that the Ecole Polytechnique is a public establishment under the authority of the ministry of Defence, with its students serving under military status. This military status goes on for four years, which is the duration of the studies at the Ecole Polytechnique. Afterwards students can integrate the "réserve", the french body of reservists, or embrace a military career. On the contrary, French military academies' students automatically serve as officers after their school years, hence the distinction. (a student of the Ecole Polytechnique)

[edit] Administratives schools

Added top schools (very selective, almumni ending up leading positions) by fields: ENSSIB, ENI (Tax school), ENM (juges and prosecutors), ENSP and EOGN (for police forces). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.123.170.226 (talk) 06:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Centrale Lyon

Can we stop referring to this school as a first tier one (in top 10 of engineering school), its graduates are not centraliens either (only Paris provides this status). It is one of the best second tier but not a first tier school, same applies to Arts et Metiers. Thx

I completely agree with you. Last week I had to undo lots of modifications done by somebody using IP 84.5.63.100 not only in this article, but, worse, in articles of other schools (Centrale Paris and Mines Paris). He degradated their contents just to show that Centrale Lyon was at their same level of excellence.
Agustin.PalaciosLaloy
Absolutely, the same guy keeps undoing others' valid contribution, for example by removing Ecole Normale Superieure from the top list, etc. (He also doesn't know how to type, introducing typos and spurious spaces around commas and brackets.) This is bordering on vandalism. How can we flag him?

To come back to the main topic, I must say that I can't agree with the first comment. Centrale Lyon does belong to the top ten of the engineering Grandes Ecoles, and this for at least three reasons :

1/That's what it scores in every global (non-specialized) survey. See for instance those of "Le Point" : http://www.lepoint.fr/html/grandes_ecoles/ecoles_ingenieurs/post_prepa/classement_general.jsp In 2003, it even reached place #3 in the same magazine (since then, criteria have changed).
2/It also corresponds to its level of recruitment. (see the statistics of the "Centrale-Supelec" competitive exam on the SCEI-concours web-site) And, yes, of course, it recruits almost exclusively after the "prépas".
3/The institution itself dates back from the 19th century, has got a good network of graduates, enjoys a nice campus including large labs, which evey school can't pride itself of...

Last, let me mention that "centralien" is just a casual nickname - not a trademark - also used from graduates from other Centrale schools than Paris to refer to themselves, which I find totally ok since they also belong to the family. And soon, we'll be glad to welcome some "centraliens de Marseille"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evarist (talk • contribs) 07:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Selectivity of top French Grandes Ecoles

There are about 600,000 French students taking the baccalaureat each year, here is an estimate of the number of students entering the top French Grandes Ecoles after a Classe Preparatoire:

X: 350 ENS (all options): 500 ECP: 300 ENSMP: 200 HEC: 350 ENPC: 150 ESSEC: 350 ESCP-EAP: 350 SUP AERO: 150 SUPELEC: 440 ENST: 150 ENSTA: 150 ESPCI: 200 ENSAE: 150 ESE: 250 INA PG: 300 ENA: 100

TOTAL: 4,000

This is about 0.5% of High School graduates.

In the UK, Oxford and Cambridge enroll also about 4,000 students a year for a country of similar population (but with more foreign students from the ex-colonnies). In the US, the Ivy League schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Penn) enroll about 22,000 students a year for a country almost 5 times larger in population.

You're assuming that all students want to do these schools. What about doctors and lawyers?

Medical and general law studies do not belong to the grandes écoles system, so it medicine or law curriculum can be as prestigious as studying in a grande école (at least if you in a famous law school like Assas). But notice that you can study certain fields of law (and even become a judge or a lawyer) at Sciences Po, ENA and commerce schools; that there is a selective examination at the end of the 1st year of medicine (so getting admitted to the 2nd year of medicine is not easier than going to an engineering or commerce school); that IEP or commerce school students who want a general education in law can enrol in a law university to become lawyers and to have, on their resumes, a "grande école" touch which wil make them different from vanilla law school graduates (and, preferably, they will also get some law or business degree in the UK or the USA). You may also notices that graduates from certain scientific grandes écoles can be admitted in the 3d year of medical studies (so they don't have to choose between university and grandes écoles: they go to both). Apokrif 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ENSAM, not prestigious?

Hi,

I wonder why ENSAM isn't in the pool of prestigious grandes écoles whilst some others are in it and aren't necessarily more prestigious than the above mentioned school?...I would have X and Mines de Paris on top, in a second pool Centrale Paris, Ponts et Chaussée, ENSAM, PC, Supéléc, ENSTA, ENST, Sup'Aero, ENSAE...which is quite the same than your classification...(I just noticed that...).

Regards, Alexander142

ps: sorry for my lack of knowledge on how to use Wikipedia...

Further discussion

Hi,

To add some stuff to my previous question (and to answer partialy to an edited reply of the above question...):

  • Former students of ENSAM have a mean salary that is less than X, Centrale Paris or Mines de Paris...which is quite obvious if you consider the main field of recruitment for Gadz'Arts...plus they don't have a lot of people working in finance to push the mean value higher...not looking at Centrale Paris or anything...(take it easy if you're centralien ^^).
  • ENSAM is a leading school in its field (weird to say for a so called generalist school, I suppose this is a relative notion...they are but in engineering ^^) and former students of this school are rather appreciated by companies...to me it belongs in the first pool but then I'm not the writer of the article and everyone has his own views. However: why put ENST, ENSAE, PC... in the prestigious ones whilst maintaining ENSAM out of it? They belong there because of the the following charatistics: good start salary, rather good rankings, leading schools in their own field, history, appreciated in their field...considering the (assumed) methodology used to make the list it's a non sense not having the above mentionned school in it.
  • The alumni association of the school has roughly 28000 members...powerful lobbying tool, excellent when the economy doesn't work well to find a job for students who just graduate,...

Do as you wish, I only wanted to make your article more accurate.

Cheers, Alexander142



Re : ENSAM, not prestigious?

In addition, people should know that French Grandes Ecoles are not only classified by their level of studies, selective entrance exams or first year salary but also by Human ressources services over the world. International companies that hire thousands of young engineers, are more able to rank Universities than journalists. In that way, ENSAM is one of the top french engineering school because it leads more than one thousand students to gradutation, that is to says more than a quarter of the 4000 students from others Grandes Ecoles together. Furthermore, history has made ENSAM one of the most french prestigious school. Duc de La Rochefoucauld-Liancourt founded the first "campus" 200 years ago, in 1806 in Châlons sur Marne (also famous for its Champagne)and through centuries, the school has become what it is now : a great Grande Ecole. French engineering formation landscape would be very different without ENSAM. On the other hand, ENSAM is one of the two Grandes Ecoles that remains in Paris "intra-muros" with Ecole Nationale Supérieure des Mines Paris, this is a symbol. Finally, according to a lot of technical departments I have worked with, in USA, Mexico, South America, Russia or China, Ecole Nationale Supérieure d'Arts et Metiers is very famous trough its powerful, reliable, friendly alumni association that makes the school UNIQUE.

Zabar


Reply/addendum

Hi Zabar,

Duc de La Rochefoucauld-Liancourt founded the first school in Liancourt in 1780, Châlons is the odlest surviving one. I might add for further information that the original school was made to "produce" specialised workmen, during the 19th century the alumni gradually went up socialwise passing by foreman stages to engineer. The school changing its teaching to shift (gradually) to an engineer school in 1907...but this is a bit out of topic here...

In Paris, "intra-muros" that is, there is also PC.

Regards, Alexander142

Centrale Paris, isn't "intra-muros'". The central's campus is in Châtenay-Malabry, it's in Paris's big ring. Like Politechnic the inside Paris building isn't used for research or study. ENSAM, ENSTA, Mine have intra-muros "campus". Beretta vexee 21:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Method...

Hi,

For the sake of objectivity, the author should either give his methodology for his list of "most prestigious schools" or adopt a non controversial alphabetical list...why not simply copy the French version for this part?

Regards, Alexander142

Answer?

Can the author please explain me why ENSAM, a founding member of the CGE (along with X, ECP, Mines de Paris, Ponts et Chaussées, ENST, ENSTA, Supélec, Supaéro, ESPCI, INA PG, HEC...all the engineer schools of the list...hmm), is not in the above mentioned list? PLEASE!! or at least give some explaination for it or state in the article that this list is purely subjective,...

Regards, Alexander142 23:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paristech

Hi,

A paragraph/link dealing with Paristech (http://www.paristech.org/) might be a good idea.

Alexander142 00:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Criteria for incorporation into the Grandes Ecoles category

To stop these endless discussions, I propose to agree on criteria for incorporating schools into the discussed category or not:

  • Selectivity: A "grande école" is highly selective. There is no question about that. So HEC, X, Sc. Po or Normale Sup have very low acceptance rates. They differ in selection modes, but all are very difficult to get in. The problem is that half of the schools listed here will disappear from the article. Namely, all the second tier Engineering and Business schools, which offer more places than they have candidates.
  • WOW effect: A "grande école" is like Oxbridge or Ivy; when an individual mentions where he/she studied, people are impressed.

I propose that these criteria are cumulative.

Otherwise, the army used to put people into categories before entering the National service. And there were two categories: The "grandes écoles" and the "écoles", which could be "écoles de commerce", or "écoles d'ingénieur".

Whether a "grande écol"e is part of the Conférence des grandes écoles or not is utterly irrelevant. The École des Chartes and École Normale Supérieure - Ulm administratively belong to Paris I - Panthéon-Sorbonne. However, there is no discussion as to their status. It should be the same for all.

The "elite schools" idiom is purely foreign to French culture and perception. It is a translation of the idiom "grande école". There cannot be a differenciation between the two concepts.

Please read Bourdieu, please! before any change or discussion is made to this article!


Hi Vanuatu92,
I agree with you on the fact that we need a definition of the term...however whatever definition we might end up with, there will always be some people thinking that such or such school belongs to the category of "Grandes Ecoles". I'd rather just give a list of schools without mentioning prestige or anything.
The wow effect isn't a relevant criterion...objectivity must prevail.
Alexander142 00:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. The problem is that these schools are not legally anything special. It's really hard to find objective criteria for a purely sociological fact. Perhaps, there should just be a mention, at the beginning of the article, that the following list is debated?


Hey guys,

I'm french and I am at the Mines Paris at the moment. I completely agree with Alexander142 on the fact that those schools are not legally special. However, I can't really agree on the criterion you use for your selection of those schools. Being a founding member of the CGE implies that the school is very good but few ones are missing: ENGREF, INSA Lyon and ENSIMAG for the engineering schools. Those three schools are really important in that category:

- 'ENGREF' because it trains engineers from the "Corps de l'Etat" (including Poytechniciens)

- 'INSA Lyon' because it is far before all the 5-year schools and represents that model; they're usually considered to have a developped human dimension in addition to their scientific skills; it is a traditional school belonging to the top 10. (however they would be at the end of the 10 first)

- 'ENSIMAG' because it is the best school for Computer engineering, and is one of the hardest school to get after the taupe. It is also really reputed for finance engineering and they are often considered in the 10 top.

Furthermore I have to add something:

X is the best of the best engineering schools, it should really be placed before all of the others, even before les Mines et Centrale Pa X is very very special and those people are very smart

Cheers Hendrix elec

PS: I tried to find a descent ranking on google, and it took a lot of time...... I found this one on a school website. It is not quite perfect but it is the most representative of the ten first that I found.... Sorry (it's just to give you an idea) http://www.utc.fr/evenements/classement/nouvel_econom/index.html#ne2003

Hi Hendrix Elec. The One thing we are trying to avoid is exactly that: you are in one school, and therefore are fighting for place n°2, or 3 or x against another editor, who will come from another... This is endless.
Look. I'm a graduate of a few institutions, some grandes ecoles, some Oxbridge, some plain universities. But I do not write about my schools/unis, or fight for their place. We are trying to be as objective, or accurate, as can be. And being too personal is biased. Moreover, it's not about a ranking in this article; it's about explaining a concept to people who do not know about it. What you are doing is typical of the grandes écoles frame of mind, but is not relevant to the article.


Hi Hendriw elec,
I was trying to find a common point to all the listed schools and the fact that most of them were founding members of the CGE appeared to me, I wouldn't make it a criterion either ^^
Anyway all those rankings are pointless and just end up with students and alumni arguing about it...I'm quite satisfied with the article as it is (with a mention of the controversial content of the part discussed here).
Alexander142 03:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
ps: for the ranking-addicts: http://site.voila.fr/classements.ecoles/ingenieurs2007.html


Hi Vanuatu92,

I understand your viewpoint. I agree that this article is quite "controversial". You know that french system is one of the most elitist (it is not a quality, I agree with you...;-) in the world. We have to explain it in this article.

I'm not quite personnal here as I'm from Mines Pa, and there is no debate on it. I'm just trying to help you bulding this article, because the french system is nowhere clearly explained and written (even the newspaper completely disagree on this topic...). Even many french people don't understand it.

But two things are non controversial (as a french I can tell you): X do have a special status. the ENGREF, INSA Lyon, Ensimag do belong to the best grandes ecoles. I do assure you that they are very famous and recognized. (I don't understand why you deleted those three schools (???????)


Otherwise, if youdon't want to rank, you have another choice: don't rank grandes ecoles on this article if you don't want to talk about ranking.

Anyway, I and all the french do apologize for having a so ununderstandable system...

Hendrix elec

I'm French as well. And have graduated from two non-controversial grandes écoles, and lectured in others. Didn't delete the schools, just put them in the second list. Insa, for example, recruits after high school. If too many institutions are listed, I believe it will be confusing (even more than at present). X has a special status, as ENS, Chartes, HEC and ENA. I'm not sure Sc. Po doesn't have a special status as well. But other schools are virtually unknown from the wider public. They may be selective, but are not impressive in every day life. I don't think anyone graduated from Ensimag, or ESC Rouen, gets an uneasiness at mentionning his/her school.
My second point is that, as elitism goes, it is clearly not related to selectivity. The ratio grandes écoles (in its too wide acception) over country population is much higher than the ratio Ivy or Oxbridge over country population. The system is perceived as more selective than elsewhere; but this is not necessarily the case (just leave France, as is my case, and it becomes silly, if not even ridiculous). To render/translate that feeling of elitism, not too many schools should be put down otherwise readers will be confused between the "elitist" character and the amount of students who go to grandes écoles.


Hi guys,

I am an other French who is studying in an ingineering school (INP Grenoble). This discussion is an endless discussion, and it is so French. Well an easy way to end this discussion is to rank only the three schools which widely recognised as the mains ones: Polytechnique, Centrale Paris et Mine Paris. They are known because of their famous alumnis and because of the quality of their formation and researches. To content every body it could be made an allusion to the other by the way of mentioning the different entrance exams ("concours") or "prépa intégrée" like this :

There is a broad spectrum of engineering schools, many recruiting after taupes. Things may be a bit confusing since many schools have a lengthy official name (often beginning with École Nationale Supérieure), a shortened name, an acronym and, for the most famous, a nickname (and often a nickname for their students).

Amidst all the engineering schools, only a few of them are very prestigious and famous for the quality of their formation and recruitment and the fame of their research department, among which three are major:

  • the École Polytechnique, nicknamed X, which trains engineers and prepares its students (the polytechniciens) for high-level graduate studies or high-level administrative careers. It is highly considered to be the best engineering grande école in France;
  • the École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Paris (ENSMP or the Mines de Paris);
  • the École Centrale Paris (ECP), whose graduates are centraliens;

There are a total of 227 Ecoles d'ingénieurs in France which are mainly divided by the their mode of recruitement. The student can be selected by an entrance examination after the "classe préparatoire" (by order of importance) :

  • Concours Polytechnique (entrance examination for the Ecole Polytechnique)
  • Concours Centrale-Supélec (in which student of École Centrale Paris and Supelec are recruited)
  • Concours commun Mines-Ponts (in which student of the École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Paris are recruited)
  • Concours Commun Polytechnique (in which
  • Concours E3A/E4A (while the ENSAM is recruiting in this "concours" it is considerated as a major engineering school of France)
  • Concours des écoles d'agronomie (this "concours" cannot be ranked because of its particularity: it only selects for schols of agronomy, one famous school recruiting by this "concours" is the INA P-G)

or directly after their high school on the review of their high school's grades. Some famous schools select their students directly after the high school, among which there is the INSA Lyon.

Kau Australis

I agree quite. That's what I did for the "Ecoles de commerce": I put the three big ones in a group, a few others after. It would feel unfair for others but it would be much better.

Vanuatu92

Considering the ranking made by magazines you have two types of rankings:

- The ones that separate schools after prepa and schools after prepa integree

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/8047/classementdh7.jpg

- The ones that rank both. In those ones UTC is part of the 20 first and INSA is part of the 10 first.

http://www.utc.fr/evenements/classement/nouvel_econom/palmares2006.pdf (a summary I found on UTC website because this school conserves lots of ranking on its page)

This is not all about INSA or UTC. I don't care about it. It is just the fact that some taupins sometimes forget that some (at least 2) schools whith prepa intégrée are part of the top 15...

Ok Ok it's better to put another ranking. I put this average ranking because it's the most objective I found: it makes an average of ALL the ranking published during 5 years, it couldn't be more objective ! Nobody cares about the fact it was made by students, provided it was made thanks to a synthesis of all the ranking made during these latest years. You'll always find a ranking where your school has a good place, but it's harder to prove the fame of a school with only a ranking. That's why I think that a ranking that makes an average of 22 ranking is interesting. Your ranking is OK, it was extracted from a serious magazine (not Le Point ;) and the ranking you put has been taken into account in the ranking I put :)

The thing about this ranking you found is that it makes a ranking of "only post prepa schools", that's why I said it was not very objective. Apart from the fact that INSA and UTC are not in this ranking, it is true that it is a good one, but if you wan't an accurate one, it should include INSA and UTC.

The thing about the students I told you about, is that I know them, and some of them are very against 5 year schools, because of the old rivality between INSA and UTC and the taupins (apart from the ones that are sure to go to Ulm who don't care about this rivality). Anyway we're both reasonable persons I think, and I'm happy that we didn't have a "pugilat" :-) (that's a french word)

[edit] ====

http://www.lepoint.fr/html/grandes_ecoles/ecoles_ingenieurs/post_prepa/classement_general.jsp

In the latest ranking from Le Point, the top 12 schools also happen to be the ones have traditionally been recognized as the Top Tier (Groupe A) schools. It is for historical reasons rather than based on absolute quality. No doubt ENSAM would be at the top of Groupe B (which in my opinion doesn't mean it is less good than the last of Groupe A). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.183.25 (talk) 02:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] INSA Lyon

Can we be serious and take this school out of the top tier list, it just does not make the list consistent. INSA Lyon is a second tier school at best - not a Groupe A school, I am not even sure it is a Groupe B. I believe Groupa A schools are X, Ecoles d'appli de l'X (Mines Paris, Ponts, SupAero, ENSTA, ENSAE, TElecoms Paris, ENSPM), Centrale Paris, Supelec and may be INA PG (Top Agro school), ESPCI (special status - at least 4 or 5 Nobel Prizes, second to ENS here) and ENSAM (if we push it, but ENSAM is likely to be a top Groupe B). INSA Lyon just does not fit at all in this list, and the top ENSIs should (COMMENT: it's certain that they're not as good, you can't objectively compare an ENSI to INSA or ENSAM!!) be ahead of this school. Thanks to correct this to keep this article accurate! (Comment: I suggest to keep it the way it is now, because it is the most objective we can do)

INSA Lyon is really well recognized in the industry. This discussion just bring us back to the old debate between "prepa vs. INSA"... INSA Lyon clearly belongs to the top of group B. I agree with you that it doesn't belong to the so called group A, but it's the same for ENSAM (and surely for ESPCI). But the list here is not the list of the group A. We decided to include ENSAM, INSA Lyon and ESPCI, because they have something special.

- ENSAM has a very powerful network.

- INSA has a powerful network as well, and it's the only school to be prestigious and in 5 years at the same time. It' one of the first school outside Paris (after Supaéro).

- ESPCI because of the nobel prizes.

If you look at any ranking (the ones that doesn't make the separation between "with prepa" and "5 year"), ENSAM and INSA Lyon are always part of the 10 first.

I don't even belong to INSA Lyon (nor ENSAM) but I just think that it's not fair that sometimes jealous taupins (or people that don't really know engineering schools) forget INSA Lyon.

Furthermore, I should had to what you've written that ENSPM is not an engineering school in itself as it's only a second diploma that you get after a first engineering diploma.


I agree with what you said, INSA Lyon and ENSAM are very good school, and their quality is that they are both prestigious and modest at the same time. I also agree on the fact that INSA and ENSAM have the two biggest networks in France. This is not negligible at all. They're not as good as the top ones (group A), not as good as supaero or even ensta(the last school of the groupe A), but they're still very good, and the network helps a LOT.

Christophe

How can we have schools such as Mines de Nancy and St Etienne and Centrale Lyon behind INSA Lyon. It is completely biased. No recruiter would buy this


This is really beginning to turn in a war. 206.208.224.161 is apparently very protective on this article (cf. his last 100 contributions) and seems to want his list of the schools and no other. I thought this was not a ranking of the schools, but just a separation of the most known and the others. So I can't understand his eagerness to undo a list which got the most approvals. Mathieu


206.208.224.161, you wrote completely wrong things on AgroParisTech, and now you also try to criticize INSA Lyon and ENSAM. As Mathieu worte, we're talking about the 10 most famous schools, that's why ENSAM and INSA Lyon are included.

Every french knows that there is a debate on INSA Lyon. Lots of recruiters consider that it is a very good school, as good as Centrale or Mines Nancy and Sainté (clearly). And there are also other people that criticize INSA because it recruits after Bac. Concerning the magazine rankings, some of them are tricky, as they separate schools after prepa and schools after bac... In any ranking that doesn't separte the 2 type of schools, INSA Lyon is part of the ten first schools.

INSA Lyon is not X, that's for sure. Anyway, it is very famous, and it is a very good school. People here talked about its network, but how about the special international classes (Eurinsa, Amerinsa, etc.)? How about the fact that INSA Lyon is the second Grande Ecole (after Mines Paris) for research in France?

[edit] INSA Lyon and ENSAM

Alright, let's end the discussion about those two schools. There are 4 points on which everybody agrees. If someone has something to say, please put it here, but stop to change the web page every 5 minutes, thanks.

- INSA and ENSAM has big network, and are very very famous.

- INSA and ENSAM are not "groupe A" schools but a good "groupe B" ones. HOWEVER, those 2 schools have the biggest networks (with Centrale), which is NOT negligible.

- INSA is a very good school even if it is a 5 year one. In that sense, INSA (and UTs) are the exceptions.

- ENSAM stays a very good school, even if people say that E3A concours is easier.

I'm not from INSA nor ENSAM, I'm from Mines Paris. So I don't care about it. I think that what I worte is very objective. I think everybody agrees with what I wrote, but the discussion is just on the force of the words I wrote (conclusion: it's an endless discussion....). However, judging from these 4 arguments, I think that INSA Lyon and ENSAM should be put in the top tier list.

However, there is just a very special discussion on INSA, and I know exactly what it is as I saw people having this discussion a million times... I know four types of people that are willing to take off INSA of the list:

- jealous engineers that didn't have a Mines/ponts or a Centrale, and that are jealous of INSA because they finally got a worse school when they choose (or were forced) to go to prepa instead of going to INSA.

- jealous taupins that were refused at INSA, and now want to decrease INSA's reputation because they fear the "concours" results.

- old prepa teachers that think the same things since 1960, and that don't want to hear about a concurrent system.

- Parisians... that are so proud, that they just need to hear that a school is not in Paris to say that it's not good (I know some parisians that told me that Supaéro was bad because it is in Toulouse!!!!!)

It's finally easy for everybody to say b***shits, as INSA can't be ranked because the selection is not made at the same time as the other schools.

All this is very interesting, but it's just your opinion. Another could say that we should put ENST Bretagne, Telecom INT or even Supinfo here because of other reasons that could be very honest. Give us enough rankings that could prove that INSA Lyon deserves being put with other group A schools, you may have a brother, a sister or a girlfriend in INSA Lyon t defend it so blindly. That's not because people think that INSA Lyon hasn't the same prestige than Supaéro, Telecom Paris or other great schools that they are jealous not being there. You can't tell me than INSA Lyon is seen as Supaéro or Ponts et Chaussées, I'm a french student too and I know that there are taupins that criticize unfairly INSA and ENSAM and that would tell you it's a group 3 school. I don't think so, in the business world INSA Lyon, Telecom Bretagne, Centrale Lille, Centrale Lyon, ... are similar. But don't tell me INSA is more prestigious than these schools, you know it's false ! :) I saw you changed the order between Mines Paris and Centrale Paris because you said generally people (I would say taupins) consider than Mines Paris is just after X, you may be right (although Centrale is more known and more considered in Strategy Consulting) but "Mines Paris > Centrale Paris" is not a well known fact in people mind (you did it because you're in Mines Paris) so you can't pretend an order that exists between schools only for Mines Paris and not for INSA Lyon. That's very subjective, ENSAM deserves eing put with group A schools because it's the only school that is "on the limit", INSA Lyon has never been "on the limit", nobody has never thought it was a group A school. I won't change it, do what you want, but you shouldn't take advantage of the fact that is a foreign page to make people believe false things, that's not very good.


Hi 160.228.154.4, I understand your viewpoint, and I see that you're talking sense, which is good. However, there is one thing I've never said: "ENSAM and INSA are as prestigious as supaéro, or supelec" !!! (where did you see that I could've said that?? I never did). I don't have any family or nothing in those schools. My brother is at ENS Ulm. I just made a very very prestigous prepa, and I saw the behaviour of those kids that were pushed by their wealthy parents. I don't defend INSA nor ENSAM blindly. I'm just being fair.

The problems of the rankings is that they separate 5 year schools and after prepa ones. So how do you want to make an objective and descent ranking? However, some magazines that rank both schools exist: Here they are:

http://www.industrie-technologies.com/article/page_article.cfm?idoc=32269 1 - Mines Paris, 2 - INSA Lyon, 3 - ENSAM.

I know that you're gonna tell me that this ranking looks nonsense. BUT, it's a justified one as it ranks 'partnership with companies'. This doesn't mean that Insa and Ensam are in the three best schools of France, but it just means that they're famous and recognized by industrials.

http://emploi.journaldunet.com/magazine/1073/

(ENSAM=4, INSA Lyon=9) I agree, it's a bit weird but anyway it is.

http://www.cefi.org/CEFINET/Ratings/INDEXNOT.HTM

(from the CEFI, a serious organism: ENSAM=5, and INSA Lyon=7, because it is a popularity poll)

http://www.epf.fr/pdf_fr/Nvel%20Economiste06.pdf

(from Le Nouvel Economiste: ENSAM=9, INSA Lyon=10)

We could find more....

I agree: INSA Lyon is as good as ENSTB, Centrale Lyon or Mines Nancy, BUT not better: that's for sure! Where did you see that I said the opposite???

We both agree, but I want to "give back to Cesar what belongs to him": the top tier list we put in wiki, was to separate famous schools from other schools. In that sense INSA Lyon and ENSAM are very very well known because of their giant network. In france, grandes écoles are too small, that's why we created Paris Tech. ENSAM and INSA Lyon are just big enough.

Please, give me a ranking that says that ENSAM or INSA Lyon are far away from the other schools, and I would agree with you. (I'm am not talking about rankings that separate the 2 types of schools)


I have never said that INSA Lyon and ENSAM are groupe A schools, because I think that they both are groupe B. However, we didn't list the groupe A schools but the most famous ones, because this page is written for foreigners so that they understand our system. (However I see that I made a mistake on the wiki page, because ENSAM is better than INSA Lyon, sure.)


Concerning Mines Pa et centrale Pa (should I understand that you're from ECP :)), I did it because that's what the rankings generally write, but I agree our 2 schools are very prestigous and quite equivalent.

[edit] Acronyms

Can't we put the acronym of the schools first? It's a bit elligbile and someone that doesn't know the topic is likely to understand nothing this way...

Example A: Do we have to put École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Paris? Can't we just put Mines Paris and the link to the wikipedia page of Mines Paris should be enough to explain more...

Example B: Ecole Nationale Supérieure d'Electrotechnique, d'Electronique, d'Informatique, d'Hydraulique et des Télécommunications... Don't you think that it's too long...? We could just put ENSEEIHT (and the real name in brackets, otherwise someone that doesn't speak french will understand and remember... nothing)

--84.97.220.174 15:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC) Bill


[edit] Agro Paristech

Is not this a chapter of the Paristech consortium? If so it should not show here as the Paristech consortium does not show anywhere here. INA PG might just qualify for the top schools though. The Engref (ex Enitef I think, not the application school for X also called Engref) and Ensia should be way below in the list (Groupe C schools at best)

206.208.224.161, I think that you really try to impose your viewpoint, and that you try to vandalize this page. Furthermore, you clearly demonstrate that you don't know engineering school.

ENGREF is the application school for X. It is a very good school, who trains for high administration careers. Enitef is an ancient school that was absorbed by ENGREF.

ENSIA is the second best agro school after INA PG.

These three schools decided to merge and that's it. They will become a new school. It is like that, they merge. We don't want to know what you think about it, 206.208.224.161 because it is going to be done. '206.208.224.161, please go to their website, and read it


206.208.224.161 should stop to vandalize wikipedia, because he does changes on the article, whereas he is not informed at all. Furthermore, his viewpoint looks biased and he doesn't bring proofs....

[edit] 66.108.163.103

Can you please stop massively edit this page without discussion ?? You seems to have a "parisan"-centered view by deleting schools as EM, and others ...

Please on an disputed article like this one, this kind of edits only shows a lot of direspect to the people participating to it. So give your arguments here before editing. And wait for a consensus.

I would add ESC Toulouse in the Top province Business School as it belongs to the top ten for 5 years, rated 7th in the rankings and present in the Financial Time rating

[edit] Silly Discussion

I do hope that the quality of the English as well as the low level of debating style of this discussion is not a measure of the quality of the grandes écoles :-(

I asked a very experienced recruiter (ex Google) about where my daughter should study after she finishes her second year in prépas. A grandes école or a Dutch technical university. Sadly, her answer was:

From a recruiting and talent selection perspective anything that's called university and has a website and an international reputation is typically more sought after than grande ecoles.

Trying to rank the schools is impossible unless you have some objective measure. Some proposals:

Sort by Alphabet
Sort by (number of people doing the exam) / admissions, this will show exclusivity
Sort by average salary of a student leaving the school
Sort by a citation index
Sort by international ranking
Sort by hits on Google
Sort by quality of the website

I think showing a table of schools, sorted alphabetically, with all the relevant information is more informative that adding and deleting schools based on some subjective measure, let the reader judge the ranking. It is valuable to have a list of French schools.

I read this item in Wikipedia after I got a reply from the recruiter. I like my kids to study in France because that is where we live. The bickering in this article did not help to improve my regard for the system ...

--90.42.218.45 (talk) 07:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC) (Peter Kriens)

I would suggest deleting this list altogether, Wikipedia is not a collection of lists, and rankings are not neutral, they are subjective as they pick and ponder a handful of criteria, with some of them difficult to measure and error-prone. I propose to point to lists by type and/or category, which are by far much more interesting and reliable, see for example:

for good starting points. Links to rankings may also be added to inform the reader further, but this article shouldn't be yet-another-ranking. This would also give more exposure to the real encyclopedic content on Grandes Écoles like the history of these institutions.

And please, everybody here, calm down, anyway your so-called "famous grandes écoles" are way at the bottom of international rankings, and nobody really cares for what is in this article as it doesn't look very reliable anyway ;-)

--Cnb (talk) 16:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


French Grandes Ecoles are really special in the french business ecosystem. This list is of great informative value if you want to work in France. The fact that you dislike french Grandes Ecoles or prefer to study in an University is irrelevant to the topic. Deleting this list would mean that it's not significant in the french educational landscape. Actually it's what matters most to the students. You cannot also make any comparison with the british or american elite schools, because there's no prépas there. It's worthy to note that most of the technical knowledge of french engineers comes from their 2/3 years in prépas, not from the Grande Ecoles. Thanks for not deleting this article, which looks fairly good as it is, even though there is some obvious bias but nothing is perfect ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.65.145.101 (talk) 23:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the recruitment methods and rules

It should be noted that the Grandes Ecoles don't require you to have studied in a prépa before. The exam is open to anybody. If you pass the exam, you can go to corresponding Grande Ecole. In the top Grandes Ecoles, tuition fees are approx. 0€, which means anybody can afford that. This stresses a big difference between french elite schools and any other country in the world: France's elite schools basically get the smartest, regardless of if they are rich or not, of their cultural background, etc. - only the smartest. But, statistically, almost all the students managing to pass the exam are the ones who studied in the classes prépas. Indeed, you learn a lot of mathematics in classes prépas. From a foreign point of view, it should also be noted that the exam to the french Grandes Ecoles (ENS, X, ENSAE) are much more difficult than the exam that you might have to pass to enter a great university like Harvard or the MIT. Also, in the french Grandes Ecoles you hardly work. Most of the time is dedicated to doing nothing (the so-called "glande") or partying. In the US or the UK, people really have to work to pass the exams. In the french Grandes Ecoles also, you don't learn much. That's the biggest criticism you can have against these schools. When you come out of the top 3 Grandes Ecoles, you don't know anything about life or business. The only thing you know is the math you've been learning in the prépas... I think somebody should write something about that, because it really stresses out the particularities of the french elite educational system. Please correct me if you think i'm wrong, but I've been studying in two of the top 3 french Grandes Ecoles for engineering, and, honestly, this is the truth.

81.65.145.101 (talk) 00:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Me

[edit] POV Tags

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues.Jjdon (talk) 16:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)