Talk:Grand Theft Auto IV

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[edit] Niko's Nationality

[edit] Conversation conclusion

His nationality should be stated as "Eastern European", not "Serbian"

Main arguments:

  • Sam Houser did not refer to specific nationalities in interviews.
  • Different sources say different things (some say "Eastern European", "Russian", or "Serbian").
  • That keeping it ambiguous will reduce the amount of edit wars.


ok,i wanna know if rockstar actually stated Niko's nationality anywhere and i want a link to there.because it says croatian in the text and right after that it offers a source site on which Niko is stated to be serbian! and on another wiki page i found a line saying he is serbian.shouldn't we end this confusion with a clean,verifiable source? --Sloba (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's supposed to say Serbian, but various people keep changing it to Croatian. I guess people have strong nationalistic feelings in that part of the world or something. It's almost like the fought a war over it! Oh wait...
Heh, anyway, although the game is a little vague, a preponderance of reliable sources have stated he is Serbian, so the conversation ends there (except for the vandals). --Jaysweet (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I hope you're not joking about war. The Vandal Warrior (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
What war? I'm not sure what you are talking about? --Jaysweet (talk) 20:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The Bosnian war, which Niko fought in... If you didn't know what I was talking about then it doesn't really matter. I just thought you were joking about the Bosnian war. Sorry if you weren't. The Vandal Warrior (talk) 20:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I was joking about the absurdity that the hostile feelings from the Bosnian war (and similar conflicts in the region) have spilled over into Wikipedia to the point where people are edit-warring over the ethnicity of a fictional character. Kind of sad, really, and all I can do when something is that sad is to laugh. (I do know of the Bosnian War, though not as "the war Niko fought in," hahahahaha... I was being sarcastic with the "what war?" comment) --Jaysweet (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


back on topic.

Here's an idea: changing Niko's nationality to "unstated". There is a small chance that he is from a fictional country which uses Serbian as its national language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.37.54 (talk) 20:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah. It's actually supported in game by an e-mail from his mother in Serbia and he is called as such by a character in game. While the latter may not fully support the idea, in combination with the former, it's safe to say he's Serbian, especially with the third party sources. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I just wanna add that,as I live in Serbia,I have noticed that the language Niko uses at certain points in the game (as I have seen in trailers and videos,I haven't played the game yet) is not Serbian,but is rather some kind of a combination that uses expressions from several languages from this part of the world.Though it is not mine to discuss here,I guess rockstar were trying to make an universal East-Southeast European character.But if verifyable sources say Serbian,then let it stay that way(no hardcore nationalistic feelings coming from me on this topic :) but yes,as someone said above,ppl do have very strong nationalistic feelings in this part of the world) oh,and if he is really supposed to be Serbian,then might I add that Rockstar don't know anything about Serbian names :) --Sloba (talk) 14:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I totally agree with you that Rockstar was trying to have Niko be from some sort of an amalgamation of a number of Eastern European countries. I have seen a couple of sources (unfortunately, less reliable ones) who have said "unnamed Eastern European country" for Niko's origin.
Alas, most of the reliable sources say Serbian, so I think it's better for Wikipedia to reiterate what the secondary sources say, rather than try to interpret an ambiguous primary source. Thanks for the rational and well-reasoned commentary, Sloba! --Jaysweet (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, Kate and her family think he is acceptable for her to date. As she is a strict catholic, wouldn't this suggest that Niko is a Catholic as well and therefore probably croatian?

[edit] Niko Nationality

I was under the impression that Rockstar intended his nationality to be ambiguous. I don't see that it's Wikipedia's place to piece together clues. None of the citations state that it was Rockstar's intention for Niko to be Serbian, they just reference clues that could indicate this. For fictional characters, surely it's the intention of how the authors wish somebody to be represented that is the defining factor. Oblonger (talk) 18:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I think he's supposed to be an "Anywhere-Eastern European" type nationality. Analagous to the "Somewhere, Middle East" antagonists in COD4. xenocidic (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Disagree, similar to WP:SPOILER: Wikipedia is no place to include only what the producer wants people to know but to mention everything that can be verified and is important. If the authors allowed this fact to be made public, it clearly shows their intentions to keep it ambiguous are not nearly as existing as you imply. Reference says, he is Serbian and so you need to show the reference is wrong or doubt-worthy if you want to write something else. Everything else would be OR. Of course, IF you have reference, i.e. proof, that Rockstar wanted to keep it ambiguous, you can add that as well additionally to the current facts. --SoWhy Talk 19:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
My point was that if Rockstar's intention was for his nationality to be ambiguous then his nationality is ambiguous. He is a fictional character created by them. They decide what he is. There are no facts, he’s not a real person. If they have in the game deliberately (the word deliberately is important); implied that he is serbian then that is a different story. Oblonger (talk) 19:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
To attempt to quell this unnecessary discussion, I'll say that both primary and third-party sources say he's Serbian. Case closed. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 19:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Are those sources from Rockstar? If not then it doesn't matter how many sources we have, as all other sources are simply peoples' interpretations of various facts. TheTrojanHought (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be better in the article to point out that the game never specifies where Niko is from? If it does sorry, cant see it. John.n-IRL 19:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd say only if you can prove it was deliberate. --SoWhy Talk 19:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely the burden of proof should be on that he is Serbian. Oblonger (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
We do have a source for that in the article, so it's proven imho. Now the burden lies with you if you claim it was intended to be ambiguous. --SoWhy Talk 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Primary source where? xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Its not mentioned in the game, since its not backing up an opinion surely that would sufice to prove a simple fact? John.n-IRL 20:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This reference says he's Russian: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/news-features/news/GTA-IV-episodes-only-on-Xbox-360-11072007.htm although could it be argued to be out of date? Oblonger (talk) 20:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

All other sources that mention his nationality say Serbian. Oblonger (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
WHAT other sources? You need to show proof or it means nothing. Pay attention. DestradoZero 07:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DestradoTensai (talk • contribs)
See the ref in the article itself. --SoWhy Talk 07:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I cannot express enough how ignorant it makes you look when you say that Niko is Russian. --nlitement [talk] 12:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
First remain civil. Calling someone ignorant has no place here. Secondly remember that verifiability is more important than "the truth". If there are sources for both Serbian and Russian, then we mention both. It isn't our place to decide which is correct, we simply have to follow the sources. John Hayestalk 12:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

← Niko is not Russian, anyone who played the game for any length of time should know that. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to your question, xenocidic, from what I've heard he's referred to as Serbian by a boss in game and receives a e-mail from his mother from Serbia. Multiple reliable sources also state he is Serbian; all of these sources together support this idea. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 12:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll double check check I get home. I kept the email from momz. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, none of the emails I've received from Niko's mom mention Serbia (and her email provider is eyefind.info). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 13:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Check the sending info and whatnot again. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 13:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll check again, I don't think there's a "view full headers" (I would be thoroughly impressed) but her email address is an @eyefind like everyone else. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
'anyone who played the game' remember that we are writing for someone who knows nothing about the game, not gamers. I know perfectly well he is Serbian, but that's my WP:OR from playing it. Readers need to be able to source it without playing the game. My argument is that if there are enough reliable sources saying he is Russian (or any other nationalities) (the one up there is about a year old, so can probably be disregarded) then it can be mentioned. John Hayestalk 13:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
From what I'm seeing, the sources that thousands of editors have been citing for article inclusion haven't been added in yet. It's pretty amazing that something discussed so often and repetitively by editors hasn't been done by said editors. Some have an excuse; page protection prevents them from doing so. Others don't. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 13:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Quite, I see no source. John Hayestalk 14:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rIH11dCM_U has lots of links to reviews that say he's Serbian so I guess that makes the article correct as is. I guess they have interpreted this from playing the game as none of them have quotes from Rockstar. It is important to remember he's a FICTIONAL character. This means the original authors of the game decide what he is. Oblonger (talk) 19:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The MSNBC source for Serbian is included in the second paragraph of the article (where it is first mentioned that he is Serbian.) It was included at both mentions of the word Serbian in the article, but the second mention was removed some days ago. --guyzero | talk 23:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I had five sources cited at one point after each mention of the word "Serbian," but somebody thought that was excessive and removed it. I don't think it was, given all the bullshit that's been going back and forth here... --Jaysweet (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup, I remember them being hacked out. Please add all or a few of them back. thank you! --guyzero | talk 18:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously Jaysweet, Niko's not real. 86.129.222.236 (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously anonymous user, that's an unnecessary statement. Jaysweet offered a very reasonable and viable option to attempt to quell unnecesary discussion on this subject. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 04:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I concur. Would be good to see more citations. That said - none of the citations flagged up in the Youtube clip cited above, including the current citation in the article, appear to be from particularly reliable sources. They all appear to be POV amateur reviews. Unless there is reliable source which can be traced back to a quotation from Rockstar, I would recommend reverting to something like 'Former Yugoslavian'. My POV two cents - I agree with Oblonger's initial point. I doubt that Rockstar would want to open any potential can of worms by making him a specific nationality. I suspect that his nationality is kept deliberately ambiguous.--SupernautRemix (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The current ref (MSNBC.com) is not a reliable source? Additionally, FOUR reliable sources have been added twice (and then subsequently reverted back out)[1] that all say Serbian. With respect, we need to agree to either accept four cites in the article or stop saying "we need more cites", please. Also, any "suspicions" that we have about Rockstar's intentions with regards to his nationality is original research. The RS's say Serbian. We just report what the RS's say. If Rockstar comes out with an official statement on his nationality, we can address all of this again. --guyzero | talk 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is an early cut-scene in which Vlad calls Niko a "fucking Serb". I'd call that pretty conclusive on the part of Rockstar and as proof. jackbergin (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Make sure you watch it with subtitles on. He may have called him a "serf". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 00:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


NIKO IS CROATIAN... Born in Croatia and raised in Serbia!!! here is the link, check it out! http://kezins.com/2008/05/09/behind-the-game-niko-bellic-before-gta-iv/

not a reliable source. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Brady Games Signature Series Guide for GTA IV states that he is serbian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meaty Weenies (talk • contribs) 18:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Meaty Weenie, what page is that on? I never saw anything in there stating that. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

"Our story begins aboard the Platypus, a merchant navy vessel arriving portside in Liberty City, gateway to the “land of opportunity.” One of the crew is a Serbian national named Niko Bellic, a man haunted by war memories and running from past mistakes." - It's at the top of page 10 just before the first mission, The Cousins Bellic. I'm sure that this guide must have inside information from Rockstar, because they know so damned much about the game! Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

While I do see your point. Couldn't it be possible for Brady Games to have taken the liberty of assuming he is Serbian. My reason for still being skeptical is, Sam Houser stated that Niko's nationality is supposed to be ambiguous... as per the citation below 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Can we cite from Wikinews? If so we should ask them to interview someone from Rockstar North and ask them... Maybe if we're lucky they might see how much of a dispute this is causing on Wikipedia and even release a press statement about it LOL. I do see what you mean by the way. It may just be as simplicity (people have heard of eastern europe, but not Serbia). Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we are allowed to cite anything, Wiki related. Agree'd, I hope someone can get their attention and make them release a statement. This is threatening to tear us apart! lol 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

On top of all of this, many here are ignoring the fact that numerous characters in the game refer to Niko as a "Pollock" (derogatory for Polish people), and he doesn't refute it, whereas in other instances, he is called "Russian" and explicitly denies it. Does this mean he's Polish? Perhaps Polish and Serbian? Oi ... in fact, it's best left as "unspecified" ... I regret bothering to edit the article on this one. Zombie007 (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I never saw a confirmation that he is Serbian but based on the clues, i think Niko is definitely a Yugoslavian, if his nationality is really that important, don't think his a Croatian though, because Croatians don't recognize the Serbian language and in game the say that its Serbian language, he also uses the Serbian slang word for brother. He is not Slovenian, so his eather a Serbian or Bosnian from the Republic of Srpska because of his crimes in Bosnian war and so on.

[edit] Source is incorrect

Rockstar games and the story never disclose Niko's origin. If you go on the in-game internet to the libertcitypolice.com it has both Niko and Roman of unknown origin. Source number 14 calls him serbian, but this is the writer of that source's speculation, not truth.

170.224.52.40 (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death. At numerous times in the game, there is character dialogue that some people feel implies Niko is Serbian. Others disagree. However, we have a preponderance of reliable sources that say he is Serbian. This prevents us from having to engage in original research, such as inferring from the in-game internet, to determine whether he is Serbian. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
But Wikipedia is not concerned with "the truth" it is concerned about verifiability, so if the source is reliable then we follow that, regardless of what the game says. John Hayestalk 15:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Why?? It makes no sense. Surely what the game says is correct. End of. It comes from the creators, therefore any other source (aside from ones from the creators) is just peoples' opinion etc. TheTrojanHought (talk) 20:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The game never reveals his actual nationality. I belive an interview with the rockstar developers on IGN stated the intention of never actually stating it. i shall try and find this to add as a citation! Also, as people are saying that he is refered in game as serb by a boss, he is also refered to as a "Uky" in an early mission (Ukranian) which also would support the notion of trying to remain ambiguous. Right, i'm off to find that citation... Metallicadam (talk) Metallicadam (talk) 1602, 19 May 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 15:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

If you can find that citation, that would be great. I would feel much better about that. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


NIKO IS CROATIAN... Born in Croatia and raised in Serbia!!! here is the link, check it out! http://kezins.com/2008/05/09/behind-the-game-niko-bellic-before-gta-iv/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A blog is not considered a reliable source. The guy asserts that he contacted Rockstar, but I see zero evidence of that whatsoever. He never says what parts of that information come from Rockstar and what was his own inference. This is just not going to cut it... --Jaysweet (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

oh, well... Since nobody can really confirm that Rockstar made him to be Serbian, I suggest we just change it back to 'Eastern European'... that way, nobody takes offense, even though there is nothing to take offense to. Just like we can't confirm that this blogger really talked with Rockstar, we can't confirm MSNBC did either... (at least that is the citation I remember seeing) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Primary and third party sources say he's Serbian. Case (should be) closed. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 20:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Still not convinced on the primary sources (point me to it), but there's a preponderance of third party sources who seem to have fed off each other for the Serbian thing. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


I agree with Xenocidic... it is not a closed subject as Kazakhstan claims... Eastern European is the only thing confirmed by Primary sources... everyone else is just speculating, which is not very encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll kindly ask you to prevent yourself from making such statements about my username in the future; not because I think it's offensive, but because it's silly and utterly unnecessary. As I've stated before, he's referred to as Serbian in game and I think he receives an e-mail from his mother in Serbia. I haven't seen anyone disprove these pieces of information and, in conjunction with the third party sources, it's sufficiently sourced. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 21:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

While I don't doubt for a second that he receives an e-mail from his mother in Serbia, that doesn't make him Serbian! The reason I don't doubt it, is because I've been playing this game religiously, since it was released... also, they do call him a 'Serb', but they also call him a 'Ukie' for Ukranian. I apologize for being childish, ♣ Klptyzm, but is still not a closed subject. we still have no Primary citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Quite right, they call him a "Polak" (slur for Polish) a few times too. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 21:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Primary citation isn't required. We have 4+ 3rd party reliable sources which state he is Serbian. We don't make judgement calls on whether we think those sources are correct, or Rockstar's intention, etc, we just report them. Please see WP:V. Thank you! --guyzero | talk 21:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, you are correct... I think the only resolution would be to just call him 'Eastern European'. regardless of what country he is from, he is 'Eastern European'.

Unfortunately in this case we probably have to concede to the many sources that are already calling him Serbian. P.S. Don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~, and while were at it, maybe consider creating an account! ;> xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 21:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to create an account (I think I once had one), but I'm no good at this. Plus, I don't think there is much I can contribute. =( 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Concerning the primary sources, it is starting to become apparent that that is now basically BS, if what you all say is true. Fair enough, then; it should remain as Eastern European. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 23:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
For probably the first time ever I'm going to disagree with you on something Klyptyzm. The third party sources say serbian, but none (listed in the article) say eastern european. If we are going to disregard those sources then he could just as well be German or even American, or even for arguments sake be from the Moon. John Hayestalk 13:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This source refers to Niko as "an illegal immigrant from an unnamed Eastern European country." I think GameSpy is pretty reliable when it comes to video games. However, it seems a lot more sources are saying Serbian.
I really wish Metallicadam had come up with the interview with Rockstar where they explicitly say they were trying to leave his nation of origin ambiguous. I personally believe that is probably what Rockstar was going for. But I also believe that the article should probably say Serbian, since that's what most reliable sources seem to have inferred. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Then where did people first get the idea that he was Eastern European? Sources, I presume? I doubt people just made that up. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 16:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hrm anyone got copies of EGM? Say around Jan/Feb/Mar or so. Dan Houser may have said something along the lines of "Niko is a man with no country" (cf. http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=315565&st=0). Also, as to the "Eastern European" thing, http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/869/869381p1.html. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

John Hayes, actually, 'Eastern European' is the only thing confirmed by Rockstar. American, would definitely be out of the picture. I'm at work and blocked from being able to view Rockstars website, otherwise I would include a citation 209.78.214.253 (talk) 16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

[edit] Case closed - "Eastern European" (unspecified) - from the horses mouth

Sam Houser , actually, EGM, March 2008( I believe) see page 46,

“ As executive producer of the series, he's got a lot to say about GTA4, of course--about ... its main character of unspecific Eastern European ethnicity... ”

and later , page 47

“ This immigrant from Eastern Europe, hardened from the conflicts there, has been lured to America by his cousin... ”

and finally, page 54

“ GTA3 had a main character with no name. GTA4's main character is a man with no country. Liberty City's residents label Niko with slanderous titles like "that Polack" or "that Slavic drug dealer." He just smirks or offers a noncomittal grunt. "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. "[He's] a guy like you and me who just did what he had to do to fend for himself. ”

.

Can we put this one to rest, and call him Eastern European? xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Good job. I would endorse replacing all instances of "Serbian" with "unspecific Eastern European ethnicity," and I would cite the EGM Sam Houser interview every time this is mentioned. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, nice work! --guyzero | talk 17:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I would point out that all this predates the release of the game and all reliable sources since the game's release label hims as Serbian. Neıl 龱 17:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! True contributor to Wikipedia. I wish I knew of this before my previous preemptive edit. Haha! Zombie007 (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Neil, that is directly from Sam Houser, Executive Producer. Doesn't matter if it was prior to the release or not. My vote is to change it to 'Niko Bellic an Eastern European...' 209.78.214.253 (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

^ exactly. Fact is all those sources calling him "Serbian" just fed off eachother. Remember when everyone was calling him Russian? It starts with one person saying something and suddenly you've got all kinds of "verifiable" sources spewing bullshit. (for lack of a better term) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 17:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Neil raises an interesting point about the chronology. One thing he said was factually incorrect, though: Most post-game 3rd party reliable sources are saying he is Serbian, but not all. At least a couple are saying Eastern European.

Despite the chronology concerns, I am still more inclined to give the Sam Houser interview precedence over the inference of an MSNBC video game reviewer. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As would I. I don't really care too much about this one way or the other, I've done my best to try and resolve the Serbian vs Crotian edit conflicts, and I'm going back away slowly now. =) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 17:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I know this is settled but just so you know Roman says "My Serbian is not so good" during the first cut scene when Niko talks to him.padddy5 (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Padddy, he does say that, but, just because someone speaks English, doesn't mean they are from England. =) 209.78.214.253 (talk) 18:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

There are actually a number of references in the game that are suggestive that Niko is Serbian, but for each one we have at least one editor who disagrees on the interpretation. That's why we can't rely on the game; there is no point in the game where the main character comes forward, puts his hand on a Bible, and says, "I, Niko Bellic, do hereby assert that I am totally Serbian, and not of any other ancestry." Anything short of that is too open to interpretation.
I hope we can put it to rest now that we have a reference with the game's executive producer stating his intentions as to Niko's nationality. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Jaysweet, agree'd! love the Niko Bellic 'testimony', lol. someone had also posted, "it's not like Niko and Roman said, 'dude, we are totally Serbian'" LOL... I know this isn't a forum, just thought it was awesome. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Not to poke the skunk or anything, but here is a NYTimes article from today interviewing the voice of Niko Bellic where it is stated that the character is Serbian: [2]. Have fun! --guyzero | talk 20:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What's that smell??? I know I said I was going to back away slowly, but for the record, it's the reporter who says that he's Serbian (see my above comment about the proliferation of the b.s. and whatnot), not Hollick. Thanks for the link though, I'm going to read through it now. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup, agreed! The reporter states it -- the word Serbian does not show up inside any quote directly from the Hollick. Just to make sure, does the "Eastern European" language show up inside a quote from Houser? I hope it does so we maybe put all of this to rest. --guyzero | talk 20:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep - see above - the quote within the cquote template "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, it's not just generic "Eastern Europe" he's from. It's undoubtable he's from the Balkans because he's not Russian but fought in the Bosnian War. Second, "Nico Bellic" is a Serbian name similiar to how "Patrick O'Brian" is very much an Irish name. We know he's not East Slav (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, etc), he's not a West Slav like a Pole or a Czech. He's definitely a Slav of some sort from the Balkans-either Croat, Bosniak, or Serb. Everything indicates Serb-name, the experiences he describes, his apparent ethnic prejudices, etc. -Decepticon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decepticon (talk • contribs) 21:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Decepticon, no doubt he is from the Balkans, he actually states it himself in the game. But we can't confirm what part of the Balkans he is from. We can only prove what we can cite, which is, Niko Bellic is from "that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," as per Sam Houser, Executive Producer. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

I would endorse narrowing it to the Balkans from Eastern European. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 22:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, we could do that, but at some point, someone is going to want a citation... 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

"Second, "Nico Bellic" is a Serbian name similiar to how "Patrick O'Brian" is very much an Irish name."

I'm sorry but you have it mistaken. While Niko Bellic may seem like a "Serbian" or "Croatian" or even a "Bosnian" name... you cannot put it down to one. There are two reasons. One, "Bellic" is spelt in a way that no last name in Serbia, Bosnia, or Croatia is. The double "L" is not common AT ALL. Second of all, "Bellic" is pronounced "BelliK" not "Bellich" as the last names in Bosnia, Serbia, or Croatia are pronounced as. So you can't really take "Bellic" and use it to pin-point it to ONE ethnicity, considering it really doesn't match any at all. Face it guys... Rockstar did this for one obvious reason, to hide his ethnicity all together. Just like they did with Claude. They want a "Mysterious" character. Please stick to fact & quit beating a dead horse. Anyway I just felt like providing this insight for anyone who doesn't know.

Sam Houser has spoken. Move on. Jas315 (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] stop changing Niko's nationality!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, what is this childish game of changing his nationality over and over!!!? He is Serbian and just someone LOCK THAT so it can't be changed.

Go here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBeLhkKqZPg

You have MORE THEN ENOUGH sources, even a picture from the game and at the end, Michael Hollick (!!!THE GUY THAT WORK FOR ROCKSTARS DOING NIKO'S VOICE!!!) talks on the radio and says Serbian, then you hear: "Thats how he talks, he is From Serbia"


Stop changing it people! And no, I am not from Serbia if some of you think thats why I want it changed! I am Canadian! So people we know some of you had wars in the Balkans but damn, stop being so stubburn and leave Niko's nationality to SERBIAN!!!

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please refer to the compromise that has already been reached above. According to Sam Houser, Niko's nationality is intentionally grey. As for the fact that Roman says, "...It's better than my Serbian." 1) Speaking Serbian does not necessary make one Serbian. 2) It could have been a figure of speech ("my wiki-code is better than my Greek" does not mean I am Greek). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Nikoi's nationality is intentionally grey." You mean he's one of these guys?! Heh, that could be especially dangerous with a self-proclaimed Xenocidal maniac running around the wiki! ;p --Jaysweet (talk) 20:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, I am with you, the compromise was reached. We read it from the horses mouth, Niko is an Eastern European of Balkan descent from an undisclosed country. Unless Rockstar issues a press release that states otherwise, it should be left alone. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Ok, its fine with me, Eastern-European, but I would like to see where is that he says that. All I see is he says that here and there but I want to see it myself and not by copy/paste. Like what I mean is, you say We read it from the horses mouth but where do you read it? Thats it, I just want to check it out.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3167304 --Vylen (talk) 04:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate.

I don't know why you people say "comes from the horses mought" when its the guy that wrote the article that said that.

"As executive producer of the series, he's got a lot to say about GTA4, of course - -- about its homecoming to NYC doppelganger Liberty City, its main character of unspecified Eastern European ethnicity, and even about the possible massively multiplayer future of the whole franchise. He has things to say about the previously impenetrable topic of hidden GTA: San Andreas sex minigame Hot Coffee."

He is the one that said that, there is nowhere written (well maybe but I did not found) that its Houser that said that. This was published before its released that's why the writer did not know its ethnicity thats why HE said :"unspecified Eastern European ethnicity" and NOT the Houser. If someone has another link of HIM saying it, please send it, because this so NO proof at all.

"He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, so he does not say that Niko's has an unspecific Eastern European ethnicity. That does not contradict of Niko being Serbian, au contraire, it even supports it. When we put sources on Wikipedia, we put those that are the most valuable, here all the sources we have so far tells Niko is Serbian, NONE contradict that. The quote "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," does not contradict it at all, its kind of neutral quote or, it might even been seen, as a supporting quote for Niko being Serbian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There's several links that just say "Eastern European" (IGN for one). Since Serbian is included in Balkan which is included in Eastern European - to avoid edit wars - the compromise reached is to leave it as "Eastern European" or "Balkan". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As you said Serbian is included in Balkan which is included in Eastern European, but why not being more precise? And put Serbian? Thats what is done on wikipedia on every article, it gets more and more precise. Since there is so many sources (go to the video link I sent above) that shows Niko being Serbian, then we should put that because there is NO source contradicting it. The compromise was mostly reached since the quote "its main character of unspecific Eastern European ethnicity." was thought to be said by Houser but it is not, it was said by the writer even before the game was released. After it was released, that's the time the most information came. Houser said "Eastern European", as I said, it does not contradict the fact he is a character that is Serbian. Well, we should be more precise, as this is one of the goals of wikipedia, and put he is Serbian. If anyone finds any quote that is contradicting that, then it should be changed but not if it says "Eastern European" since it still ain't contradicting but supporting. Its like (in some way) with everyone, some sources would say Leonardo da Vinci is European and some would say he is Italian, so we go for the more precise one because the first one is included in the second on. (might not be a good example but you get the point) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much for the same reason we're calling it a fixed-wing aircraft and not an airplane or aeroplane - it's a compromise to avoid future edit wars. I'm still unconvinced he's "Serbian" and those sources aren't compelling (one person says it and suddenly everyone is saying it - we all used to think he was Russian for similar reasons). I'm still convinced by the Sam Houser quote about the "gray area in Eastern Europe". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 15:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
And lets never talk about this ever again.... --Vylen (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think sorny got a point. We called him Russian before the game was released then after the release it was found out he ain't. All the sources (each one of them!) are supporting the fact Niko is Serbian, I looked at the video and the guy (Michael H.) at the end that is doing Niko's voice says he was asked to talk Serbian many times (I know it is talked in Croatia or Bosnia but they, like Croatians, says they speak Croatian and not Serbian), anyway, in the interview it is also said "he is from Serbia" and no one, neither Michael contradicted it...... The edit war is not supposed to stop us from putting he is Serbian, it should just be locked. I am Serbian and I know the hate some people have towards us (mostly Albanians and extremist Croatians and extremist Bosnians), most of the time I think they are the one that edit it because they can't accept the simple fact that a simple character from a game is Serbian. As sorny said, all the sources point to him being Serbian so it should be kept as that........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickey303 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

But not all the sources say he's Serbian. Please read up on edit conflicts and the proper way to address them (compromise), which is what has occured here.xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 15:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's fine with me then. Keep it Eastern European since that is 100% sure, but I would insist we remove "of (deliberately) unspecified Balkan ethnicity" because that is found on the source above where it was not Houser that said it, just a simple writer (like in some cases some writers say he is Serbian) therefore, if we can't put he is Serbian, this has to be removed also since it is even a badder source since found only there. So remove that please and keep it Eastern European. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for understanding why this has been done, especially since he's already been listed at the lamest edit wars. For the record, I'm not Serbian/Croatian/European/etc. Just a Canadian trying to keep the peace =). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm for peace too my friend and of course truth (small or big). So this should be changed 'of (deliberately) unspecified Balkan ethnicity" and only left Eastern European. Hi from Quebec ;). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Tis done sir. =) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry didn't understood.... What did you said there? "This is done"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I meant that I made the change you suggested. (Tis done = It's done) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how this works, if its going to change right away or later but the "of (deliberately) unspecified Eastern European ethnicity" is still there on the second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Someone wrote in the "deliberately unspecified" to try and head off future edit conflicts. But let's see if this version will be stable. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes that one is good. :) Thanks for the edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obvious that he speaks Serbian. Therefore you can safely call him Yugoslavian. Also, I never saw an edit war anywhere? It's only been this discussion page that's given the impression of a some sort of a disagreement on his nationality. --nlitement [talk] 22:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

just check the article history if you dare... --Vylen (talk) 00:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
guys, everyone take a chill pill! remember, Liberty City is (although technically not) a made up city, who's to say he doesn't come from a made-up country. look if theres nothing official, theres nothing to write - its speculation. drop it! spend your time making edits that are beneficial than arguing over this.Chocobogamer (talk) 00:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Now that's a very good point, for all we know he comes from Syldavia. ;) John Hayestalk 06:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the exact interview that i originally read (i'm still searching for that), however, page 2 of this: http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9570&Itemid=2

mentions they "were looking at eastern europeans". through out the whole article he never says Serb or Croat. Still i know this wont be taken as definative so i'll carry on looking! Metallicadam (talk) 14:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The game never mentions Niko's ethnicity. Simply putting clues together based on a language he speaks (just because someone speaks english doesn't mean they are english) and a surname with questionable origins (Bellic is not proper spelling for any serbian surname). It is obvious that the executives claim he is just Eastern European, but the writing hints at some Balkan origin. Who knows why this is the case, perhaps the writers were annoyed at the executives and this was some conscious rebellion. Perhaps the Serbian hints are just a conincidence. We have evidence the the executives did not want him to be pigeonholed as a specific ethnicity other then Eastern European. Mentioning he is Serbian based on loose "evidence" is original research. However, if you find an article that speculates his Serbian ethnicity, then I guess it can be mentioned, but it should also be mentioned that the executive producer mentioned that he is just Eastern European, and the developers statement should take precedent over fanboy speculation. --Jtd00123 (talk) 07:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Please see a related discussion here at Talk:List of characters in Grand Theft Auto IV (oldid). --Pixelface (talk) 22:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sentinel car in the game is like a BMW M3, but it is not exactly like a real-world BMW M3. Niko Bellic the fictional character in the game is like a Southern Slav, but he is not exactly like a real-world Southern Slav. There are some elements of the Sentinel that make it unlike any real-world car, there are some elements of Niko Bellic that make "him" (he's not real) unlike any real-world person. He certainly isn't a New Yorker, since there is no place called "New York" in the game. In some ways, Croatia and Serbia don't even exist in-game: they may be talked about (or not), but you can't visit them. IRL you can visit the actual places. In-game the former Yugoslavia exists as a narrative construct for character background and nothing else. People are taking the necessary suspension of disbelief and applying it to some things in this fictional narrative (such as hey look here's a flak jacket lying around that I can pick up, or I have radar/GPS all the time, or I don't need to sleep or eat, or there are no toilets in this world that are like real-world toilets since in game you never need to regularly use one) and are applying it to the characters as well, since we want to see them as "real" narrative elements. I have some Serb friends, and I understand why some might want to insist that NB is Serb, but also why some might point out how the signifiers of his identity are mixed and contradictory or even nonsensical (such as the spelling of his last name). However, none of this will end the flame war, my points (and the good points of many others here) are appeals to rationality, and to some people it is not about rationality, it's emotional. Besides, it's the Internet, who expects any differently? --Wmjames (talk) 03:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You can't compare Niko to a car (Sentinel in this case). The cars don't have their true names for marketing/economical/tradeMarks reasons. All the cars' name are fake, but the ethnicity of the characters no! Many characters in the game are Albanian, Russian, Americans, I think there is some Italians and many more. They are not Kuraslian or any other invented fake ethnicity/nationality. So your comparison with the cars has nothing to do really with Niko's nationality. And all the stuff like: "such as hey look here's a flak jacket lying around that I can pick up, or I have radar/GPS all the time, or I don't need to sleep or eat, or there are no toilets in this world that are like real-world toilets since in game you never need to regularly use one". All the games don't have that and in many games you play as a specific character, like in mafia games, you might play as a Italian and it is said Italian, that "guy" does not eat or go to the bathroom either but its said he is Italian anyway. Its always fictional of course, its a game, but that does not mean that the countries or character's nationalities are fictional also. They can be Russian or Serbian and they don't need to be something fictional like Balkridian or whatever... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial Song

What is the song in the commercials?Poketape 21:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum, try somewhere else. --Svippong 21:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

He will not be the last, mabey it could be metioned somewhere......(121.217.56.178 (talk) 09:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC))

Why be so rude, Svippong? It's "Pruit Igoe" by Philip Glass. Neıl 龱 10:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the peeow-peeow song? Boomchekuw boomche-PEEOW-PEEOW-boomcheekuw boomche-PEEOW-PEEOW. That's "Get Innocuous" by LCD Soundsystem. --nlitement [talk] 15:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

"I came a long way to see you and now I wish you were dead" Google it for gods sake.(121.217.56.178 (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Police response

Does anyone feel that the police are much more aggressive than in the previous GTAs? I haven't got too far through the game (first island as I've only had it a couple of days) so I can only get 4 stars. N.O.O.S.E. have assault rifles at 4 stars. Generally seem to be more patrol cars after you, police employ jeeps at three stars. Not to mention the assault chopper etc. Is this worth mentioning? TheTrojanHought (talk) 20:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Try to cross over the bridge by foot. Then they take you down at full star level. --Shorty23sin (talk) 02:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd probably say no, because, it kind of varies throughout the star levels. For example it's much easier to stay alive at Level 6 as compared to San Andreas. xenocidic ( talk ¿ listen ) 02:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

lala I'd say this is not a froum.(121.217.56.178 (talk) 11:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

[edit] No longer number 1.

Gamerankings shows that Zelda has reclaimed the number 1 spot. Somebody should change the article.Zabbethx (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussed not long ago, besides I fixed it some weeks ago, someone have apparently (incorrectly) inserted it into the article again. --Svippong 21:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
All the article needs to say is that it was #1 on Game Rankings upon release. We don't need to keep updating it's current rank overall on the site, which is bound to change. --Pixelface (talk) 22:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

How about not mentioning at all, you know, like previous GameRanking/MetaCritic champs? All of those games I've mentioned in the edit comment were at the top at one point but slipped behind Ocarina of Time. GTAIV is not different, gives the impression that the game is still number one just by the way the sentence is worded, is not until the end of the sentence that it's stated that it was at one point. (short after release). --HeaveTheClay (talk) 20:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added a sentence to clarify. xenocidic ( talk ¿ listen ) 21:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Any news on the PC version?

While I have a personal interest in the answer :-), the article could do with a mention of this, even if it's just "Rockstar has made no reference to a PC version being forthcoming". --Jcmo (talk) 18:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you got a source stating they have made no reference to it? John Hayestalk 14:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Patience is the answer. --SkyWalker (talk) 06:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Xbox360 Freezing Issues

The Xbox360 version still has not been patched to resolve freezing issues. There is a rather large (63+ page) thread on the official Xbox forums regarding this: http://forums.xbox.com/63/20524533/ShowPost.aspx#20524533

The thread is still quit active. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.146.151.254 (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 360 DLC

In the article it says August 08 for the first one. Kotaku says according to Take-Two CEO Ben Feder, it will be Q1, 2009. [3]. Is this a good enough source for this, or is a direct quote from Take-Two/Rockstar needed? Frvernchanezzz (talk) 04:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I changed it before I read your message. I've used a different source but Kotaku is a generally reliable source. WP:VG/S has a list of which Video Game sources are considered reliable. - X201 (talk) 10:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Region Free?

I just wanted to ask if the USA version of this game is region-free for the PS3. 216.166.78.9 (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

All PlayStation 3 games are region free. (p.s. this is not a forum) --Vylen (talk) 04:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)