Talk:Grand Duchy of Finland

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[edit] ALT.TALK.ROYALTY

In email group "ALT.TALK.ROYAL" there was recently a discussion of the position of Finland as Grand Duchy, which shows how sadly inaccurate the "popular" knowledge is around the world.

Some points, mostly to correct misconceptions:

[edit] "Grand Duchy of Finland and Russian Empire"

The Grand Duchy of Finland was an autonomous part of Russia. Not a separate realm. The title of Grand Duke of Finland was a subsidiary title of the Tsar. I.e, without that title, he would however have been ruler of Finland as Emperor of Russia.

It is somewhat incorrect to claim that the thing joining Finland and Russia together was a personal union. Finland belonged to Russia, whose Tsar was automatically ruler of Finland. The theory of personal union has been an invention of nationaliost-minded writers, but was essentially not true at its time. Propagandists tried to introduce that sort of argumentation of nationhood and personal union during the last couple of decades of autonomy, as a measure against Russification etc. (Afterwards, in independent Finland, it was usual to try to rewrite the history regarding this factual background.) When Finland became independent, it was an utilization of Russian internal problems (1917 revolutions). However, even at that point, Finnish parliament and administrative cabinet recognized the temporary government of Russia as Tsar's successor as ruler of Finland. Some months later, the Russian representative of TemGov was ousted, and Finnish organs took the full powers, leading to dclaration of independence.

Finland was pactically conquered by Russians from Swedes until the end of 1808, but in 1809, Sweden ceded the territory officially, in a Peace Treaty which was made in Hamina (Fredrikshamn), in September 1809.

To attract the positive feelings of Finns, Tsar Alexander I, great-great-great-grandson of Charles XI of Sweden (whose subsidiary tile had been Grand Duke of Finland), granted the wide autonomy, as well as in his speeches in Porvoo Diet mentioned something of Finland having been elevated into a position of a land and people within his multi-national Empire (which has been interpreted even as a beginning of nationhood of Finland).

In Finnish official documents, such as in legislation, the sovereign was usually called "The Emperor and Grand Dke" ("Keisari ja Suuriruhtinas", "Kejsare och Storfurste").

Russian Grand Dukes and Princes did not use any particular title referring to Finland. They were grand dukes of Russia. Finland, as well as a number of other titles (King of Kazan, Duke of Estonia, Grand Duke of Moscow) were subsidiary titles of the sovereign, unnecessary to use even in his short titulary, and not present in titulary of other members of his house. Even the heir to the throne, the tsarevich, did not use any subsidiary titles derived from the long lost of sovereign's titulary. The tsarevich was known as "Tsarevich, Grand Duke of Russia".

The ordinals of sovereigns were identical in Finland to those in Russia. Even if there had been a ruler whose name had been in use by earlier Swedish rulkers of Finland, Grand Dukes of F., it is rather clear that the ordinal would have not taken that into account. And were there a ruler whose name had been in use by an earlier Russian ruler who was not a GD of F, that would have not changed the ordinal regarding Finland - this could have happened with Alexis (son of Nick II) who would have been Alexis II of Russia, and it briefly and theoretically happened with Tsar Michael II (whose reign went unnoticed by official Finnish documentation). In practice, the five sovereigns who held true power in Finland (A I, II and IIi, N I ad II), were as original names in Russian sovereign list as in Finland, and their ordinals were identical already for this very reason.

In 1555 John, the second son of King Gustav I Vasa, was given Finland proper, titled as duchy, as an apanage by his father, residing at Turku (Åbo) castle. The very same John, having become King of Sweden (John III), and being in war agains Russians, chose to elevate his titulary in 1581 by taking the title Grand Prince (westernization is Grand Duke) of Finland, this referring to all of Finland, all Finnish provinces and not only to Proper Finland around Turku. The russian-style Grand Principality is sadly and incorrectly always called Grand Duchy in English language. John's action was to compete with titles with the enemy sovereign. John's son Sigismund, heir to the Grand Principality of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland through his mother Queen Catharina Jagellonica of Sweden, was not the person to whom the title was created.

There is a claim that Dukedom of Finland was eventually granted to King Sigismund's younger half-brother Duke John. At least truthful is that he later held Duchy of Ostrogothia. (claimed that in 1608 he forced to exchange Finland for Ostrogothia.)

An unverified claim states that the future Gustav II Adolf was made Duke of Finland as heir to Charles IX (who was youngest son of Gustaf I, and King of Sweden after the deposed Sigismund as a result of victory and confirmation by the Estates (crowned 1608). It is also not confirmed in Regeringsformen of 1772 that the Kingdom of Sweden and Grand Principality of Finland was in personal union.

In 1806 Prince Carl Gustaf (+1808) younger son of Gustaf IV Adolf was made Grand Prince of Finland.

The Finnish war of 1808-1809 meant that Finland became an autonomous state by resolutions and declarations in Porvoo Diet 1809, and Russia obtained claims of the territory from Sweden by the Treaty of Hamina of 1809.

The Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia was the Grand Prince of Finland as well as King of Poland, King of Kazan and Grand Prince of Moskow, etc.

Finland was from 1809 an autonomy, an own entity. Before, it had been an integral part of Sweden, as a buch of provinces beyond the sea. Up to 1809 Finland was a geographic entity only, while at that time becoming also a political one. 62.78.104.175 05:47, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citizenship

What kind of citizenship had the people in Finland during that time? -- 81.233.220.208 (11:01, 13 August 2005)

The word citizen is a republican consept and usually not used in monarchies. For example, only recently have British people been refered to as citizens, previously they were only subjects of the British monarch.
The people of the Grand Duchy were never Russian subjects. They where Finnish subjects of the Russian Tsar, or in todays terms Finnish citizens.
When staying or living in Russia, Finnish subjects were treated as foreigners. When traveling abroad, they carried a Finnish passport.
-- Petri Krohn 00:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


The term "citizen", though a bit retrospective (not much: since French revolution, all the European countries understood it and at least unofficially it was used), is useful to the context of the autonomous grand duchy, because of the certain separateness. For example, Russians needed a passport to come to autonomous Finland. And, only Finnish "citizens" were eligible for appointments of Finnish offices, such as senators. We will not manage to express these things by saying that they were "subjects of the tsar", and it is yet somehow non-expressive to try to say "subjects of the grand duke" or "subjects of the tsar in his role as grand duke". Finlandais 17:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

True. In fact, a Russian noble could (and a number of them did) become a Finn by being inducted to the Finnish House of Nobility (Swedish: Riddarhuset). After 1856, this required the permission from the Finnish Senate. Commoners became Finns by petitioning the Finnish Senate for naturalization. On the other hand, the requirement of Finnish people to bear passports was born out of the needs of the Russian bureacracy. The Russians had a system of internal passports, and as large numbers of Finnish workers were employed in St. Petersburg, there was a distinct need for them to carry passports. How else could a sick and disabled worker be sent back to his home parish? --MPorciusCato (talk) 12:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Client state"

What is this nonsense? Client state, as I understand, refers to only formal autonomy, while Finland's autonomy was great. --Jaakko Sivonen 22:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of Arms

There is a reference request related to the position of the "eastern" sword of the lion of Finland. However, it is not fully clear what part of the sentence needs to be referenced. --Drieakko 08:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

In the image now used, the lion holds the "eastern" sword in his pawn. I do not think this CoA wa ever accepted by the Finns. The text says that "this was changed later in the 19th century". Who changed what and when? (References please, preferably a blazon) Or is this bastard CoA just Russian propaganda? -- Petri Krohn 04:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, there was no formal CoA of Finland before the 20th century when the current one was modelled after the engravings in the king's 16th century sarcophagus. During centuries before that, its free variations were in all kinds of usage. The variation widely used for the Grand Duchy was present in all official connections, and you still find it even in some 1960s stamps, long after the demise of the Grand Duchy. I try to get you references later on. --Drieakko 06:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The official blazon from 26.10.1809 reads: "The shield has a red field, strewn with roses of silver, on which a golden lion with a crown of gold, standing on a silver saber, which it grasps with the left forepaw while holding in the right forepaw an upright sword". --Drieakko 06:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary Finnish name

It should be noted that the version Suomen Suuriruhtinaskunta is a modern history-book term. Contemporary documents refer to it as Suomen Suuriruhtinaanmaa.195.16.202.19 13:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)