Talk:Grady McMurtry

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[edit] Wrong editing!

Dear all,

For some reason my editing of the following sentense was re-edited. I wrote: "At the time the only functioning O.T.O. body - working according to the rituals written by Aleister Crowley - in the world was Agape Lodge in Southern California, which was headed for a time by McMurtry's friend Jack Parsons."

In the edited version the words "working according to the rituals written by Aleister Crowley" was removed. Why? This is a proveable historical fact. There was an O.T.O. in Denmark with several dozens of IX-degrees in O.T.O. working under the auspices of "The Grand Logde of Denmark" using the Ritus Hauniensis, with Grunddal Sjallung X-degree as their leader. This is proveable facts. Diplomas exists. Books on the topic exists. Today they are all regular masons, but were not at the time. They worked at least until 1960-1961, but the members were still there though Sjallung left the work without appointing a new X-degree. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TLF93 (talk • contribs)

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It's helpful, when posting to talkpages, if you could use four tildes (~~~~) to sign your posts so we all know who we're talking to. Sorry I don't have an answer to your actual question. --Geoff Capp 15:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

If it is a provable historical fact, then please provide a reference per WP:V and WP:RS. Thanks! -999 (Talk) 19:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you read Danish? Then try Sigurd Lomholt's book on irregular freemasonry from the 1930'ies which establish that O.T.O. was one of the rites included in the Grand Lodge of Denmark - which is still working today, but does not pass out O.T.O. degrees. Sjallung was recognised as a X-degree by Crowley in 1938 (letter in the Warburg Institute in London). His high-grade patents presumably went in different directions, but at least one O.T.O. group in Denmark in the 1970'ies claimed a lineage, but worked according to Golden Dawn rituals.

There is also a group in Stein, at the "Gasthaus Rose" which was chartered by Reuss and continues to this day. Therefore I claim that saying that Agape Lodge was the only working O.T.O. lodge is wrong. It was, however, probably the only O.T.O. lodge which worked according to the rituals written by Aleister Crowley, but that's another story :-) -TLF93

You can argue all you want. To include information in the article, you must supply a citation to a reputable English-language reference. I linked to the applicable policies. Read 'em and weep. ;-) -999 (Talk) 17:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You are reading WP:V too narrowly. "English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." (my emphasis) The Danish information should stand, with corroboration from the Warburg material. Your inability to get to the Warburd or read Danish does not undercut the general reliability or verifiability of the sources supplied. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a more explicit citation from TLF93 regarding the precise letter referenced. --Geoff Capp 15:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it. I was going to qualify O.T.O. with Aleister Crowley's O.T.O. or Crowleyan O.T.O., but Thelemic works fine too (I think). -999 (Talk) 15:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

O.T.O. as "thelemic" aught to be a topic in itself - there were diverse personalities who could claim direct descendant from Reuss who was "on and off" regarding the topic of Thelema. Crowley merely ignored those who were not in conformity with his wishes. No one seems to mention Krumm-Heller or the French O.T.O. guys, as also the Danish fraction has been kept in the quiet for some time ... there's a lot of new research here which ought to be told instead of re-telling what some people just want to hear because it's pleasing to their own comprehension -TLF93

And you are welcome and even encouraged to do so, as long as you cite your sources as you go along. See WP:CITE for information on how to cite your sources. -999 (Talk) 19:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supporting cast

Re: added Ebony to rebuilding the OTO in Berkeley. Ebony Anpu did a lot with and for Grady, he deserves credit: http://lib.oto-usa.org/agape/agape.2.3.pdf <3 Captain Barrett 03:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Though your intentions were honorable your comment and where it was placed implied that Ebony was of prime importance in reestablishing the Order and that he was the first Grand Secretary General. He was certainly important in the early work, but only one of many. He was also not the first GSG; that was a woman named Beverly Senseman (spelling?). In any case, I've undone your edit, and replaced it with a list of the many people, including Ebony, who were important in the early days. There are many I must have missed. Perhaps others will be added in the future. Anlala 05:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)