Talk:Governors Island

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] "Legacy" section promoting political agenda

This section appears to be opinion based and an effort to lend credibility to a political movement. Recent revisions include reference to an external site urging political action and monetary contributions to support a "foundation" with a political agenda.

Removed legacy section again. The section refers to an external site promoting an agenda based on the supposed "legacy" reported in this article. The referred site in turns references this Wikipedia entry to lend legitimacy to its claim. Clearly this is questionable at best. Is there an alternative to simply removing this section? Johnichiban 14:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed legacy and questionable links. Article marked as disputed. The "Legacy" section is clearly intended to support a non-neutral point of view. Johnichiban 16:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The Legacy section is historical fact, is historically correct and does not represent a biased point of view or any point of view. For example, pointing out the historic signicance of Jamestown Settlement and New Plymouth are neutral events and their web sites may include links that support their historical importance. Links in the Jamestown Settlement web site to a Wikipedia web site do not constitute a political movement or political agenda even though the Jamestown Settlement web site may have a section or page that raises money for its various non-profit activities. These historic sites are equally historic as the historic site of Governors Island. Its Wikipedia web site may similarly reflect the treatment accorded to other historic sites. I agree with the dekoning's statement below.

Putting the POV issue aside for the moment, (only for the moment, certainly not for good) I wonder about the appropriateness of the "Legacy" section in general. Do any other articles about geographic places have "legacies"? I note, for example, that the two examples given above, Jamestown and the Plymouth Colony, do not have "legacy" sections. On another note, if we are going to have a constructive discussion about this topic, It would be much easier if I knew who I was speaking with. I did notice however, that the above comment was made by the same IP as the user who has reverted every single one of my edits to this article over the last several days. -- Johnichiban 19:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I have encountered no such similar "legacy" section anywhere else on Wikipedia - not even in places (such as Jamestown Island) where it might be supposed to be appropriate. Consequently, I see no need for it here. All of the information contained within that section can be found elsewhere in the article; there is no need to reiterate it. --AlbertHerring 18:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if one possibility is to rework the legacy section into a section on religious diversity in the Colony? I think the word "legacy" is a bit too loaded and the section is essentially about religion anyway, so why not try to highlight this is a more mutually agreeable way? It is must be possible to address religious diversity in the colony (NPOV) without making any claims (not NPOV) about the impact that this had on the modern USA. Ideas? --Johnichiban 19:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Right now I think the chief problem is talking about the impact of the island's history on the United States, as doing so almost automatically opens up a lot of questions regarding point-of-view. If no one else is willing, I'll take a stab at reworking the thing later tonight, once I'm a little more clear-headed. --AlbertHerring 20:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The problems are many:

  1. original research
  2. uncited, unverifiable opinion masked as information
  3. revelance of the material to the Governors Island article itself, as opposed to the New Amsterdam article.
  4. promotion of the political agenda to have some part of Governors Island be funded or allocated for a Tolerance park or museum [1]

I'm not disputing that Russell Shorto wrote an excellent book, The Island at the Center of the World, and the New Amsterdam colony had religious tolerance to an extent largely unknown in Eupope or the Americas at that time. All of that being said, it has little to do with this article on Governors Island - beyond being listed as one of the many proposals for the island. I don't have a problem with folks like User:162.84.148.137 promoting ToleranceWorld and greater recognition of Dutch influence on the political foundation of the United States but they should be do so other than in this article. patsw 20:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note on name

The name of this island is without an apostrophe. The name is often mistakenly written as "Governor's Island" and even "Governors' Island". Although it seems counterintuitive,the correct spelling, as it appears on all official nautical charts and governmment maps, is without an apostrophe: "Governors Island." There is no doubt about this at all, as far as official usage. References that can be consulted in this matter include:

-- Decumanus 17:24, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)



Shouldn't Governors Island National Monument just be merged into this?--Pharos 21:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Why is a commerical for a proposal linked to the first two words of text? This should be removed and blocked.


Is there any documentation for the Jan Rodrigues story? It appears unsubstantiated

[edit] Unclear Sentence

"Governors Island is the 1624 birthplace of New York State, Connecticut, New Jersey and Delaware" -what is this supposed to be?!?

[edit] Jan Rodrigues

The original documents about Adriaen Block's voyages and the 1613 employment of Jan Rodrigues as factor in Block's service, from May 1613 to December 1613 on Noten Island, now Governors island, are to be found in the City Archives of Amsterdam, The Netherlands, under Not. Arch. 269 pp.201V-202; Not. Arch.197 pp.614V-615; Not. Arch. 197 P.646V; Not. Arch. 132 P.197VNot. Arch. 133 pp 30-31; Not. Arch. 198 pp.97, 97V, 98; Not. Arch. 198 pp. 113V-115V; Not. Arch. 198 pp. 99-101V; Not Arch. 198 pp. 116-116v; Not. Arch. 611 P. 45; Not. Arch. 137 pp. 117-117V-118; and Not. Arch. 198 p.269V.

DeKoning


[edit] No original research

The essay on "Legacy" appears to be original research. patsw 22:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

  1. It's still original research and should be deleted for that reason.
  2. It's opinion not subject to verification and should be deleted for that reason.
  3. If it were not original research and if it were verified, it would be better placed in the New Amsterdam article in any case. patsw 20:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Governors Island’s Legacy

BKonrad has removed “Governors Island’s Legacy” with the comment “Highly Opinionated Essay”.

My view is that BKonrad is prejudicial and historically not well versed in the subject matter of what was the religious, political and cultural forces responsible for the founding of New York and which shaped its culture as we experience it today.

He is unfamiliar with the history of the 16th-century United States of the Netherlands (the Low Lands) and the five major migrations that took place between 1520 and 1630. He is also unfamiliar with what lead to the founding, in 1581, of the Republic of the United Provinces which was responsible for the creation of the Americas-based New Netherland as of 1614 and, explicitly, as its overseas province in 1624. The latter event took place on Governors Island on which the laws and ordinances of the Dutch Republic were planted by the first colonists.

The five migrations mentioned are comparable to the banning of the Jews and Islamists from Spain in 1492 and the late 17th-century flight of Huguenots from France. It was the time of the reformation and contra reformation and too complicated to discuss herein. Because most of the scholarly information on this is in the Dutch language, I would suggest BKonrad to start with an English language primer: The Reformation, A History, by Diarmaid MacCulloch.

The broad facts, simply stated, are that the 1579 Union of Utrecht assured freedom of religion during the period in question. It became the lure for immigrants all over Europe and the foundation of religious and ethnic diversity in the Dutch Republic during a period of religious persecution everywhere else in Europe. This immigration was also responsible for its success as a maritime nation where freedom of the seas was its primary message and goal. Tolerance and intolerance where therefore intertwined (religiously and commercially) as a dynamic process toward individual freedom.

When we know that 18 languages were spoken in New Amsterdam in 1643 and that, later in 1682, the city had an amount of religious sects numerically comparable to the sects that existed in Amsterdam, than we know that it was already a place of extreme diversity in America, unique to this very day. Today, with over 160 languages spoken in New York City and practically every religion of this world represented, New York today is not much different from New Amsterdam 350 years ago.

I am not going to fight with BKonrad about his removal of Governors Island’s legacy as that is not a good use of my time. I am not interested in computer fights. If Jamestown Settlement or Plimoth Plantation has legacies, I would hope that BKonrad will also have them removed.

I invite anyone, though, who believes that the Government Island legacy has historical validity and is relevant to the island as the legally recognized birthplace of New York State, to reinstate it at one’s own risk; i.e., the wrath of older ≠ wiser.

Sincerely, DeKoning March 20, 2006

DeKoning, please review WP:CIVIL. Your personal attacks are unbecoming and do nothing to gain you any credibility. You may have perfectly good knowledge to share, but if you do so in a arrogant manner, people are less likely to give you the benefit of any doubt. older ≠ wiser 15:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You are welcome to hold whatever opinion you like of me, though I think if anyone bothers to examine the situation, they might come to a different conclusion. However, my objections to this "essay" is that it is poorly written, full of unattributed POV, and unsourced factual assertions. There may well be aspects of this that could be worth including in the article after some considerable reworking. I'm not sure what you expected -- you come to a ongoing open project to build an encyclopedia and don't bother to familiarize yourself with the standards that have developed for how things are done here and then you complain and criticize. Sorry, but that doesn't merit much sympathy or respect. If you want to come back and talk in a civil manner about how to incorporate your knowledge into the encyclopedia (with appropriate verifiability), you are more than welcome -- but if you are simply going to insist that you know better than everyone else and thumb your nose at existing process and standards, well, let's just say your contributions will not be as warmly received as you might like. older ≠ wiser 19:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC) Idem ditto. DeKoning

[edit] Governors Island’s Legacy

New York’s legal and political tradition of tolerance, the basis for its characteristic cultural diversity and pluralism, had its beginnings on Governors Island.

Planted there by the New York Tri-State region’s first settlers in 1624, it was upheld in the conditional Articles of Transfer by which the Dutch in 1664 ceded power provisionally to the English. Thus safeguarded, the notion of tolerance endured after the conclusive jurisdictional establishment of English dominion over New Netherland in 1674, and through the formation of the United States of America, when it was reintroduced as a constitutional right under the Bill of Rights in 1791.

A two-way street, tolerance demands reciprocal respect rather than unilateral accommodation. As America’s ultimate virtue, together with liberty it serves to define the juridical and cultural construct to which Americans refer as freedom. Indeed, it is central to the contemporary Western conception of freedom. Its origins in the Western Hemisphere as a legal and political imperative are to be traced to the year 1624, in what is now New York.

Embedded in Governors Island—New York State’s legally recognized, historic birthplace—tolerance is an essential part of New York’s cultural patrimony and its unique contribution to American culture.

On September 11, 1609, the Half Moon sailed into what is now New York harbor. Captained by the explorer Henry Hudson under the sponsorship of the Dutch East India Company, its entrance set the stage for what was to come: the introduction, in 1624, of a basic human value that was to give rise to the most diverse city in the world and the nation’s largest municipality—itself a legal concept introduced, in 1653, in New Amsterdam.

The quadricentennial of the Half Moon’s arrival will be commemorated in September 2009. Its significance to the nation lies in the fact that this event in 1609 marked the inception of what would become the world’s most pluralistic and powerful state based on the implicit principle of personal freedom; which, inarguably, is defined in terms of the twin concepts of tolerance and liberty. New York’s legacy is of immense importance to the future of our diverse nation, as it is the dynamic precept of tolerance that distinguishes the specifically American notion of freedom from the “generic” or “static.”

18:25, 9 May 2006 (hist) (diff) 69.251.254.215 removed the above "Governors Island Legacy" thoughtlessly as "a political manifesto". There is nothing political about it as it is historical and a constitutional right as well as a human right so guaranteed to all Americans in the Bill of Rights in 1791. May 12, 2006. DeKoning

Removed this again on July 18, 2006 at around 3:50 AM for the same reason - it's a political manifesto and violates the NPOV policy. I also went ahead and reworked some of the other more iffy passages and tried to make the article a bit more readable. --AlbertHerring 07:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
And removed it again on August 20, 2006 at about 10:00 PM, again for the same reason. I'm sorry - I don't want to get into an edit war, but I don't feel that that material belongs in an encyclopedia. It's too iffy, and borders too much on manifesto. --AlbertHerring 01:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Your personal opinion is driving out historical fact. This has as much to do with a political agenda as stating that the First Amendment was proposed by John Adams as Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate in 1789; two years after the signing of the Constitution. The latter had nothing to say about religious freedom. That Adams had been the Congressional envoy and first plenipotentiary minister of the United States at The Hague in the Dutch Republic from 1780 through 1784 are all historical facts. Facts are what matter, not your personal opinion or political or ideological views. The posted Government Island Legacy is entirely neutral and states only historical facts and historical quotes 64.12.116.200 17:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)dekoning

[edit] This part is nonsense (quote within):

"This symbol to hope would be equal in height to the Statue of Liberty because tolerance and liberty are equal partners of American freedom. The Tolerance Monument would be the centerpiece of Historic New Amsterdam; a proposed 50-acre Tolerance Park on the island's southern tip."

This belongs in a comic book, not an encyclopedia. BulldogPete 03:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this legit?

This, specifically. 68.39.174.238 17:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy (again)

I went ahead and removed the "Legacy" part of the page yet again, on the grounds that it borders too much on POV and has been problematic in the past. --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 01:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This can't be right...

In 2001, the two historical fortifications and their surroundings became a national monument. On January 31, 2003, control of most of the island was transferred to the State of New York for $1, but 13% of the island (22 acres or 89,000 m²) was transferred to the United States Department of the Interior as the Governors Island National Monument which is now managed by the National Park Service. The 22 acre national monument area is not fully operational and is open on a seasonal basis, so services and facilities are extremely limited.


I'm guessing it's meant to be something like $1M or something along those lines, probably just a typo...although, maybe it really was transferred for $1 :P

--121.72.228.34 08:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was actually one dollar. The price was symbolic.--Pharos 08:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Such a vague article

I just read, three times, this entire article. This is because I just spent the last two weekends visiting Governors Island. After spending four whole days and taken three tours, many, many of the topics of discussion on the Island are not mentioned here. This article, in short, is a mess. It misses about 125 years of U.S. Army presence on the island. It lacks any details about the historic buildings and structures of the island. It does not speak to the generations of families that lived on the island. It also is very very dense in the area of what the future of the island can be. There are currently five proposals for a vision for the island's future, on display for visitors to the island. The park rangers are soliciting feedback from visitors about what they want the island to be. So after reading this article, I can say:

  • It is overwhelmed by the Dutch history section.
  • The proposals the agency is considering are not presented fairly.
  • All the links and info on a Museum of Tolerance must be for some kind of phantom movement, because that was not a part of any talks/discussions/plans on the island.
  • The article really gives visitors to New York a poor vision of what a nice attraction it is.
  • The article could stand to have an architectural historian weigh in on the value of the Civil War era structures on the island.
  • Starting next year, a high school will have daily classes on the island. There is an entire plan and school ready to go on the island. More can be written about the students who will be using the island every school day.
  • Again, the Legacy section in the article is toooooo long.

How many people who are contributing to this article, have actually visited Governors Island? You have until this Sunday (Sept. 2, 2007) to do so... -- K72ndst 04:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)