Talk:Government House (Ontario)

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Chorley Park is one of three Government Houses of Ontario. By merging Chorley Park into the other, it may lose the connection. Scotwood72 13:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

However, a redirect of Chorley Park to Government House (Ontario) is not such a bad idea. Scotwood72 01:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Province vs. crown

My understanding is that the province would allot a sum to cover the rent of a residence for the Lt-Governor, so it's accurate to say "province". Writing "crown" or "provincial crown" suggests the Lt-Governor is covering the rent him/herself (the crown supplying a house to the crown), which is not the case. Yoho2001 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

And what exactly is "the province"? There's no such term in Canadian law, and no concept as such. The Crown is the sovereign in right of the province, who, in a technical sense, pays for her viceroy's residence. --G2bambino (talk) 15:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

"Province" in this case refers to the province of Ontario. It's the province of Ontario which would cover the rent, as it covers other vice-regal expenses. "Provincial crown" obscures who actually pays: Ontario taxpayers. Yoho2001 (talk) 06:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ontario residents pay taxes to the Crown. The Crown pays for the viceroy's residence, if needed. --G2bambino (talk) 16:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ontario residents pay into provincial coffers, whose funds are dispersed according to government budgetary priorities. If those included covering said rent, it would be the province which would pay. It was a government decision which closed Chorley Park, and it's the province which would provide temporary accommodations. Yoho2001 (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

What is the government of Ontario? You seem confused about the provincial governmental structure. --G2bambino (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

"Province of Ontario" refers to the geopolitical entity. The government of the province governs and administers it. Yoho2001 (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked what the government of Ontario is. The answer is: the Crown in Right of Ontario. It is the Crown that administers the province. --G2bambino (talk) 22:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It's helpful to avoid oversimplification. The governing party, in conjunction with other parties, plus the civil service, administers the province. It is these which would would allot and administer a sum to cover the rent. Yoho2001 (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the final say comes from the Lieutenant Governor him/herself. I know that's somewhat of a technicality, but it remains a fact. The rest of the people are simply the viceroy's advisors and the Queen's employees. --G2bambino (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The reference in the article is to identify which body decides to pay the rent, not which office certifies the decision. Yoho2001 (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

They're one and the same. --G2bambino (talk) 03:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lt-Gov certifies decisions made by the legislature. It's the latter which decides, just as it decided to close Chorley Park. If, to your mind, the two are one and the same, then "government of Ontario" is fair. Yoho2001 (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite incorrect. The Lieutenant Governor makes orders in Council as well as granting Royal Assent to bills passed by the Legislature. The Legislature does not decide on whether or not to rent a viceregal residence, the Governor-in-Council does.

"Government of Ontario" is fair, but it is unclear: as the Government of Ontario article states, "government" can include the entire Civil Service and Legislature, which is not the case here; the LG, with advice from the Cabinet, makes the decision. This is why "the Crown" is synonymous with "the executive government" in Westminster style monarchies such as Ontario. Further, "the government" does not hold or supply the money, the sovereign does, and the Cabinet guides her viceroy on how to spend it, which is more relevant to what the article talks about in this instance. --G2bambino (talk) 15:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ontario a monarchy? The assertion in Monarchy in Ontario would disagree. There are formalities and then there are the bodies which weild decision-making power in practical terms. As this article, much less this sentence, is not a lesson in civics, it's fairer to credit those who make the decision and work for their realization rather than the office which approves it as a matter of due course. Perhaps the nuances you speak of might be expanded upon in an artcile dealing with the subject separately. Yoho2001 (talk) 21:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Credit "those" who make the decision? Who, pray tell, are "those"? If you say "the government" is "those" then do you mean to say that a clerk in the Ministry of Natural Resources is party to the renting of a viceregal residence? I certainly hope not.

Ontario works as a monarchy - executive and judicial authority stems from the Crown, the Lieutenant Governor represents the Queen directly and is a part of the legislature. The sentence need not be a lesson in civics; it is simple enough to say "the Crown," as anyone knows - and those who don't can follow the link to find out that - the Crown is the repository of executive authority in the province, and thus the viceroy, on the advice of his/her cabinet, makes decisions about what houses to rent for whom. The expanded version was only to appease your complaints, yet, seemingly, even this compromise is unacceptable to you.

If you have no defence for the use of solely the term "government of Ontario" then please cease with the revert game and leave well enough alone. --G2bambino (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

PS- I suspect the recent edit by an anon user that directly mimics all of your own was actually you, which would mean you've exceeded your three revert limit. However, in the absence of evidence, I'll treat it as genuine vandalism by an outside party. --G2bambino (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a discussion over differences in emphasis and inclusive/exclusive terms, not a game.

Agreeing with government of Ontario does not qualify as vandalism simply because one might disagree with its use. Calling it so also risks offense, for they are among the words we are discussing, and the words I am defending. If someone inserted "crown", could someone call that vandalism?

Your reminder of the 3RR is a timely one. I notice four deletions of government of Ontario in your name, Jan. 17.

Back to our constructive discussion—

"Government of Ontario" includes those in the civil service who would work to identify a residential location, arrange its rental, make necessary changes to it, landscape the property, and provide staff and security. It likely would be an inter-agency project, and Natural Resources could well be involved. Saying government of Ontario encompasses these aspects.

We seem to agree on two significant points: that government of Ontario also includes the Lt-G and the cabinet, and that use of this term is fair. Perhaps we can agree to let it rest. Yoho2001 (talk) 07:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I did not say the discussion here was a game; the reverting on the other page, however, seems to be. If there is opposition to an edit, the practice is generally to leave what has been long-standing while the editor who wishes to change the status quo discusses the pros and cons of the alteration at the related talk page, not revert again and again because he insists he's right.

As for this debate, it seems to be becoming (perhaps purposefully?) overly complicated. The sentence states the viceroy is "provided a residence." It may well be their job to balance budgets or order toilet paper for the LG, but nobody in the Civil Service provides an official residence in any way other than as individual taxpayers who contribute to the provincial coffers. So, it's misleading at best, counterfactual at worst, to state that the wider concept of the "government of Ontario" provides a home for the viceroy. The only "government of Ontario" that decides to give a residence to the LG, how much to spend on it, etc., etc., is the Governor-in-Council - the government of Ontario. To avoid confusion between the two concepts of "government" one uses the synonym for the LG in Council - the Crown. --G2bambino (talk) 16:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)