Talk:Government

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    [edit] Stupid Question

    ¿Why is it some other articles on forms of government (such as the article on Autocracy)have a table referencing other forms of government, yet this article does not? Call me stupid, but it would seem THIS article needs that table most of all.4.246.120.144 (talk) 02:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)Andering J REDDSON, Troublemaker and Misanthrope.

    [edit] Religion and Government

    I've edited the first sentence for NPOV. I think the rest of the paragraph should also be edited. Bkepisto (talk) 06:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Mistrust of government

    Although the subject is mentioned briefly in the "government as enemy" section, I think the concept of mistrust of government deserves more attention. At least in the United States, politicians often campaign on promises to reduce the role of government. Perhaps there should be a separate article. Pha telegrapher (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Partiality

    Synopsis Section.

    "Although anarchists are noteworthy exceptions, very few people—even when faced with the most repugnant government, envision replacing it with nothing."

    It's the Godwin Law or Wikipedia has decided to create a political party? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.3.18.248 (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


    Good point. I've removed that part. Pha telegrapher (talk) 19:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

    I'm not sure what kind of anarchists the writer is citing, but the point of anarchism isn't to replace government with nothing, so I deleted that sentence. --Vericuester (talk) 01:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    Okay now I'm not sure if it's right or not. I might add it back. I have to check whether or not that's true. --Vericuester (talk) 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] suggested tweak of definition

    organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a specific territory or people

    consider corporate government or governance of a non-profit organization. how about a nomadic culture?

      • I think that a territorial component of government should be avoided. Governing bodies, that is bodies that make rules and extract obedience, exist within most institutions.

    Fundamentally, government exists as a reflection of the will of "the people"; generally meaning it is an organization established by a majority of those seeking to be governed (to have rules & regulations established as the people need and to have the "government" administer those laws for the benefit of the people. Unfortunately this has evolved into government existing for itself and controlling the populace). Usually this happens within a well defined geographic area although the UN was an attempt to create a global government.

    NB - Where something exists and has possessions, it has an owner. As with a non-profit association or a club or a mutual life insurance company, government is beneficially owned by those it governs. Food for thought when a government is formed by those using the "first past the post system" rather than by winning a majority of the votes. Also gives one pause when contemplating corruption and vote-buying by government (see the Gomery Inquiry in Canada).

    Wishful thinking - legally define government as a trustee existing to serve the electorate and provide legal liability to politicians, bureaucrats and government employees/contractors for their actions. Require them to be every bit as responsible and liable as an officer or director of a public company or any other trustee of public funds. When you consider Enron and Worldcom and the responsibility being forced upon many officers of those companies, you need to remember that the funds they administered were volunarily turned over to them by shareholders and bond holders. Taxpayers are forced to turn funds over to governments so perhaps they should be held to an even higher standard.

    needs to include the history of government

    Original North American aboriginal governance was supported by cultural solidarity. A chain of trust secured a 'House' with True Authority. A House was responsible for its members. If a member committed a wrong to a member of another House, Houses, represented by House Chiefs through circle sentencing with the wronged and the wronged doer, restored justice. Dispersed cultures dispersed as population saturation demanded it. They were happy and characterise by reason and tolerence. They were free until economic ties culturally decimated 'True Liberty, replacing 'True Authority with economic authority. The ensuing material disparity proved carcinogenic. Wars were inevitable.

    According to John Lock, in the state of nature all people were equal and independent and none had a right to harm another's life, health, liberty, or possesions; but war, the most insidious crime against humanity, is culture dependent; various factions and coalitions vying for whatever they can have provided fertile soil for striving economically, but modern merging cultures are biased. They have yet to re-develop beyond the principles of capitalism, which are not synonomous with those of democracy.

    The most basic principle of capitalism is exploitation within an economic system concerning private interests. The most basic principle of democracy is virtue within a cooperative government system concerning public freedom.

    Public freedom is dependent upon governing private interests; but governing the governed reflectively so as not to re-dramatize man's inhumanity to man is taking time to effect change because as Montesquie said, the person(s) entrusted with the execution of democracy must be sensible of being himself subject to its direction.

    Representatives of a Republic must be elected by people who understand that food, shelter, transportation, and communication are the limits of human commonality, the purpose of government,and the limitation of government. These natural rights to life are fundamental to consent of the governed given to government. Beyond this most common precondition for liberty is just that: liberty.

    --Some may declare, communism; but the most basic principle of communism is federalization within a controlled government system purporting to concern itself with the common good. Its power structure is top down rather than bottom up.--



    Natural rights to life must needs be the focus of government. Otherwise, a contentious political quagmire of corportate/ego-centric/ethnocentrism reiterates Machiavelli, "Least happy is the (world) whose institutions are intirely off the path that leads to a right and perfect end. But the republic for which the US flag stands is not a done deal. It is the means of working towards a right and perfect end, to answer the prayer "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven," to form a perfect union: a new paridigm politik.

    A choherent a collective cultural basis of justice, tranquility, commonality, and well-bing that is reasonable, right, and natural for the security of liberty requires government, but as Thomas Jefferson said, "That government is best which governs the least, because its people dicipline themselves."

    The history of government ends with the American revolution because, in America, we the people have yet to perfectively form a union. History, we the people must avoid. The founders of the Unites States gave Americans the responsiblity of page turning, starting a new chapter: A Republican Form of Government Subject to a Constitutional Ordinance of PAurpose.

    The republican form of government, that governs the republic for which the US flag stands, is the American experiment. It is a process that needs not party members, but republicans to exersice democratic responsiblity though education, participation and contribution. Think abourt it! If justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and general welfare secured to people and posterity can be conceptualized, you can give your consent to perfectively establish objectivity supported by veracity, communicate on a domestic level so as to ensure peacefull coexistence, provide the principles of immovable force, promote the equality of well-being, and secure authority and culture together with solidarity of purpose for future generations.

    The rear view mirror of history shows where the future is not, but as we look to the future humankind must needs be guided by something: the preamble of the US Constitution.

    [edit] Recent changes

    The recent large change to the page by User:Ace Diamond loses a fair amount of nuance and makes a number of controversial claims. I've reverted. Discuss here. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Changes

    Man that didn't take long.

    This whole article (before the changes)seems to me to be a rambling, disjointed discussion all by itself. It contains few citations (admittedly a flaw in the new article but that can be fixed). I just wanted to provide a description of what a government is and does.

    So, let us discuss

    Ace Diamond 02:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

    I don't know, I think the current layout is broadly alright (though like most articles here it needs rewriting in a lot of places). The article currently attempts to answer a few basic questions:

    • What government is -- the definitions and forms section
    • Why governments exist -- the section labelled "theories" (this is a vague title)
    • What governments do -- the "operations" section, again a vague title

    The last little section could well be incorporated somewhere else. Those three questions are certainly things that should be covered; other issues that should be addressed but aren't include the history and development of government.

    The main reason I reverted your edit, though was that it made a number of broad generalizations that would certainly be highly controversial (e.g. "All effective governments possess two attributes, authority and legitimacy." -- it would be hard to get agreement even on what "effective" means in that context). I don't know if that's a good way to begin a reorganization. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

    All right, I hate admit it but you make good points. I'll rewrite and address your concerns. As to the issue of broadness, though, I think that an article that concerns itself with the broad notion of government should take a broad perspective and then point to more focused articles to provide nuance

    Ace Diamond 03:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Definitions

    May I know why was the section for elaborating the different meanings of the word government entirely removed? Thanks. The removal has made the commonwealth usage of the word disregarded. — Instantnood 15:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

    • See the sections immediately above for some related discussion on an earlier, similar change. The existing definitions section was admittedly a bit poorly organized, but my concerns above still apply. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

    I have to note that the section in question is so poorly written that I felt it needed to be replaced. What does:

    One approach is to define government as the dominant(on top) better decision-making arm of the state, and define the latter on the basis of the control it has over violence and the use of force within its territory.

    mean? If someone wants to rewrite the section and put it back, I have no objection.Ace Diamond 02:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


    Previously the #Definitions section clearly stated that, the word Government in Commonwealth usage may also mean the executive branch of government. The message has completely perished. — Instantnood 20:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

    OK Ace Diamond 15:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks. The second question is, is this only commonwealth usage? The term head of government always refers to the head of the executive branch. — Instantnood 19:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


    -- what about putting in the meaning of the word "government" itself? The word breaks down to govern, and ment.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ment (mind or spirit) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/govern (to control the actions of)

    to control the actions of mind or spirit -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.77.192 (talk) 00:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Civil vs. Other governments

    I have a fear that this article will fall into a trap that trips up many political aricles. This should be a broad piece that defines and describes government in its least specific sense.

    Everyone within a state is governed by a sort of a macro-government, the Civil government. You might call this being governed from without.

    Academic, eclesiastical, artistic, and commercial organizations are all "governed" from within, in the sense that they all have governing bodies that make and enforce internal rules and policies.

    Too much concentration on civil government masks the similarities between civil governance and other venues for governance. For that reason I would prefer to leave the secondary definition alone for now. Ace Diamond 21:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    You're right. I intend to find a good place in the article to place a link to the governance article.--Mumia-w-18 (talk) 08:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Bologna

    One approach is to define government as the decision-making arm of the state, and define the latter on the basis of the control it has over violence and the use of force within its territory. Specifically, the state (and by extension the government) has been considered by some to be the entity that holds a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within a territory.

    Who takes this approach? Not Weber, who recognized that the legistative function is but a fraction of the role of government. In fact Politics as a Vocation concentrated on the executive. Moreover, almost any discussion of a particular government refers to the executive (see the introductory paragraph s of this very article.

    I would love to see some citation that states that governments are the decision making arm of the state as I could find none. Ace Diamond 23:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] definition

    A government is a group of people who perform the following functions:
    (1) nominate office holders,
    (2) elect office holders,
    (3) make laws or rules,
    (4) execute laws or rules,
    (5) judge breaches of laws.
    These functions may reside in one person, a group, or with all the people collectively. Or these function can be divided in various ways.

    A government does not nominate or elect office holders. And it never resides in a single person. Governments are not limited to civil administrations but exist in any institution that regulate or administer.Ace Diamond 02:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Government or The State

    A distinction needs to be made between "government" and "The State". The former is simply the question "Who (a person) may coerce whom to do x?" The latter is the invention of Machiavelli, and is a machine, not a person. The former has been always with us; the latter starts in the 17th Century, and becomes independent of its operator with the French Revolution. July 2006 - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.71.118.255 (talk • contribs) .

    [edit] Anarchy included in forms of government

    Under forms of government was this statement: Anarchy is characterised by the absence of a government and therefore does not constitute a form of government. If it doesn't constitute a form of government, what is it doing under forms of government? Doctors without suspenders 11:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Etymology

    I don't know if you plan to mention the etymology in this version, but I should point that "the latin 'mente'" (mens, mentis, really) has nothing to do with it and should be discarded.Pif le chien 14:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

    • Indeed. The -ment stem is from French (through Latin) and simply indicates a noun formed from a verb. Nothing to do with "mind." Christopher Parham (talk) 06:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Confidence and supply

    I have just created a page on Confidence and supply. I'm no political scientist, so if anyone wants to improve it, please do so. Also, if there is a more appropriate page for this message to be on, feel free to move it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Helenalex (talk • contribs) 02:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] Montesquieu

    The following text was on the main page:

    Enlightenment philosopher [Montesquieu] argued that different forms of government were more appropriate for different size dominions. He wrote that entities governing a large area are most appropriately Despotisms, or Dictatorships, entities with sovereignty over a medium area should be monarchies and entities with authority over a small area are best as republics.

    I was unable to find the source of this quote from online sources. --Kevinkor2 15:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] "OK this article is really a mess" (relocated from top of page)

    OK, this article really is a mess. I took the liberty of writing an a provisional outline. Maybe this is the place to assemble a coherent, consise, elegant article. I know that this outline is incomplete, maybe that will encourage editors to add, crossout, and rearrange topics so that we can produce an exemplary piece. Ace Diamond 02:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

    Government Defined

    • A body that makes and enforces rules
      • features
        • authority
        • legitimacy
        • The State
      • any institution
        • civil
        • corporate
        • academic
        • religious

    From the Greek for to steer

    • commonly refers to a specific regime
      • Blair Government
      • see also Bush Administration

    Forms of Government

    • Authoritarian
    • Autocratic
    • Oligarchic
    • Totalitarian
    • Everything in between
    • constitutional monarchy
    • liberal democracy
    • Llaissez Faire
      • Anarchistic
      • Libertarian
        • how does this apply to non-civil institutions?

    Origins

    • This might be the place to talk about the social contract
    • What about other rationales for the developement of governments?
    • Divine Right? Who argued in favor of this rationale?
    • Confusious had a different approach, didn't he?
    • What about Social Darwinism? The most capable will rise to the top?

    Who gets to govern?

    • Conquest
    • Tradition
    • Charisma
    • Legal/rational (government with the express consent of the governed)

    Functions of Governments

    • Rule Making
    • enforcement
    • interpretation

    Power

    • Authority
      • limits of authority
    • Legitimacy sources
      • Tradition
      • Charisma
      • Legal/Rational

    Agenda setting

    • Policy

    How to Govern

    • define power
    • Acquiring power
    • Applying power

    Maybe these parts should be included in some other article? Branches of Government

    • This section might fit better in an article on public administration/organizational schemes.
    • This section assumes that the tripartite division of powers is universal.

    Governmental Operations

    • again maybe Public Administration

    Size of Government

    • Actually, this probably ought to be deleted as not neutral point of view Ace Diamond 02:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


    What's the difference ( remeber Aristotle ? Herodotus?) between law and code, etc ? Wblakesx 05:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)wblakesx


    "It can be noted that a government can be seperated from other institutions becuase a government always maintains the sole use of violence to maintain and enforce its view."

    surely not true: many governments don't manage to maintain a sole use of violence, some may not even care much as long as they are not threatened. I'm not sure that introducing the "legitimate force" idea from political philosophy would be a good idea either: just see what kind of morass trying to define "legitimate" leads to. In any case it's against common usage, e.g., one can talk about an "illegitimate goverment" or a government not generally "recognised" outside a state, but it's still basically a government as long as it maintains control. Also, preoccupation with violence is probably mistaken: it's easy to imagine a government ruling a heavily indoctrinated population, not needing to use violence since lynch mobs will take care of any "problems".
    I agree most governments accept that citizens use violence in self defence etc. It was a nice try for a definition but it doesn't work --BozMo|talk 13:27, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

    need to mention social organization of cyberspace

    This article is a mess, because it doesn't decide whether it's about the "decision making elite" of the state, or the state itself. I think it should take the first definition and leave the rest to the state article. It can still mention that "government" is sometimes used as a synonym of "state".

    [edit] Vandalism

    This article seems to get a lot of hit-n-run vandalism on a regular basis. Should it be semi-protected? Or should that wait until after possibly being an improvement drive collaboration? -- Beland 08:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

    If it is going to be semi-protected, it should probably be after the improvement drive is over so that unregistered users can participate.--Mars2035 00:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


    [edit] Reads Like An Essay

    This article doesn't read like an encyclopedia article. It reads more like an essay someone wrote when asked what their opinion of government is.

    For one thing it is full of opinions like this:

    "The necessity of government derives from the fact that the people need to live in communities, yet personal autonomy must be constrained in these communities." The necessity of government is a matter of opinion, not fact and shouldn't be presented as a fact. It is a popular opinion, and there are many well-founded arguments for it, but it is still an opinion. Also, there are other opinions for the necessity of government besides this one. It's good for the article, keep it, but reframe it.

    At the end it says "The controversies over how big, how powerful and how intrusive governments should become will continue for the remainder of human history." Sounds like a good conclusion for an essay on government, but this is not an essay, it's an encyclopedia article. While I agree the controversies will most likely continue for the remainder of human history the remainder of human history hasn't happened yet. This is a prediction and does not belong in an encyclopedia article.

    It presents Hobbes as though his views are fact. Keep in mind that not only do anarchists disagree with Hobbes, but there are non-anarchists who have different ideas about the creation and reason to maintain the state.

    Also "This will be discussed shortly" doesn't sound very encyclopedic. That's the kind of thing you put in an oral essay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealdeal (talk • contribs) 22:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

    Yes. Also very wrong is that: States formed as the results of a positive feedback loop where population growth results in increased information exchange which results in innovation which results in increased resources which results in further population growth.[19][20] The role of cities in the feedback loop is important. Cities became the primary conduits for the dramatic increases in information exchange that allowed for large and densely packed populations to form, and because cities concentrated knowledge, they also ended up concentrating power.[21][22] "Increasing population density in farming regions provided the demographic and physical raw materials used to construct the first cities and states, and increasing congestion provided much of the motivation for creating states."[23]
    The term of "a positive feedback loop" implies that nation building would be something like a rational process. This is even the reverse of the standard theory of rising states by Franz Oppenheimer. --Crashtip (talk) 09:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
    I agree; this absolutely reads like an essay. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 20:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] "Government as Friend/Enemy" (please change these)

    Seriously, they need to be changed. Governments cannot go to the movies with me or demand my lunch money. Stop using words that are childlike and ignorant. Instead, title these sections as "Positive Aspects" and "Negitive Aspects." If you so desire, add "of Government" to each if you are worried about people forgetting about which article they are in. Sgt. Hydra (talk) 16:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

    I changed it to positive and negative aspects. I also had to change some of the wording in the subsequent sentence under each heading. If I've made it somehow more biased by doing this, could someone change the article to something less biased? I wasn't really sure how to word it. --Vericuester (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


    [edit] Addition of section on critical views and alternatives

    Whilst the dealt with the positive and negative aspects of government, it lacked any real critique of the actual traditional conception of government. In an increasingly interdependent world, there is a growing discussion over whether the traditional role and approach of government is still appropriate and effective. I have therefore added a section which deals with this issue. No doubt it requires some further editing, but I feel it should be included in the article. Timschocker (talk) 14:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Types of Government

    Howcome "Aristocracy" is ommited from types of government? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.162.217 (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

    Aristocracy refers to the criteria by which leaders are selected, not the actual structure of the government itself. The traditional form of an aristocracy is technically an oligarchy. Polemicisto (talk) 20:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)