Talk:Gottfried Leibniz

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Gottfried Leibniz was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: June 24, 2006
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Contents

[edit] Two Infoboxes???

Western Philosophers
17th-century philosophy
(Modern Philosophy)
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
Name
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
Birth July 1, 1646 (Leipzig, Germany)
Death November 14, 1716 (Hanover, Germany)
School/tradition Rationalism
Main interests metaphysics, mathematics, science, epistemology, theodicy
Influenced by Plato, Aristotle, Ramon Llull, Scholastic philosophy, Descartes, Christiaan Huygens
Influenced Many later mathematicians, Christian Wolff, Kant, Russell, Abraham Robinson, Deleuze

Why are there 2 infoboxes in this article? Merge them into one because it looks as if the article tells about two persons. Causesobad → (Talk) 16:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed them. I don't think an infobox can do justice to a person active in as many fields as Leibniz. Kusma (討論) 11:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I still think he needs an infobox, because removing all is too rigorous. An infobox is very important because it's a table of brief information which can help the readers have the general overview about certain individuals. Infobox is also an usual style in an article. A person who is active in many fields still needs an infox, for instance Leonardo da Vinci. I suggest we should condense the info instead of deleting all. Causesobad → (Talk) 14:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Admittedly I don't think that any biography article needs an infobox. I like FAs without infoboxes such as Robert Oppenheimer or Mary Wollstonecraft. To present the brief information of the important facts, we should use the Lead section. Other FAs such as Athanasius Kircher also have a very minimal infobox, which I find much more aesthetically pleasing than the huge specialized boxes this article had. But go ahead and be bold and let us see what you think the infobox should be like. Kusma (討論) 15:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
In contrast, I do think an biography article should have an infobox. Sometimes, the Lead section can be too long due to the huge contributions of the individual and it can make the readers feel boring and confused about the information given and they may find it hard to collect every piece of information scattered in the diffusive paragraph. An infobox will supply the comprehensive conspectus: who is he, born, died, residence, religion, known for, prizes etc. A concise infobox like Isaac Newton or Galileo Galilei is suggested. Causesobad → (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe the second infobox is OK. Causesobad → (Talk) 17:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
After I removed the irrelevant flags, it doesn't look too obtrusive anymore. Kusma (討論) 18:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I added the philosopher infobox to the right for the archive. FranksValli 04:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The question of nationality

I endeavour here what I hope will be reflected in many other similar articles on the (English) Wikipedia. This article (on Gottfried Leibniz) has (had) a section under the first image titled "Nationality", and this is (was) stated to be German. That is misleading, and not correct.

By a nationality of German, we mean one has citizenship of Germany. By Germany, we refer to the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, a presently existing political entity in the heart of Europe. This State only came into existence in the 1940s, and hence Leibniz couldn't possibly even have heard of it, much less belong to it.

Was he German - of course! Was Vivaldi Italian? Yes! (in everyday speech anyway) But to ascribe to them a false nationality based on today's geo-political situation is wrong.

Similarly Kant was German, but he may not be described as a German national. He was born and died in a city that is part of present day Russia.

Apart from the issue of factual accuracy, i.e. ascribing to someone the nationality of a state which did not even exist in their lifetime, (which some might consider as pedantry, but one might think that pedantry is not out of place in a repository of knowledge) there are a few other things to consider:

1. What of those who change citizenships? Shall we call Nietzsche a Swiss philologist because he held a Swiss passport?

2. Multiple citizenships? Can Winston Churchill be described as an American politician?

3. What of those who have no citizenship? Occasionally, renouncers of society have exerted tremendous influence on mankind.

4. Does formal citizenship - possession of a passport, or entitlement to one - really matter when one considers certain human beings? (or even all human beings, states being virtual entities that few people join by choice)

It makes sense to list the nationality of Bill Clinton as American (or US), of Samuel Johnson as English, of Saddam Hussein as Iraqi and of Angela Merkel as German - for these people are deeply identified with their respective states. But we may not list the nationality of the Buddha as Nepali, or of Hitler as German, or Herzl as Israeli. We may refer to Plato as Greek, but not a citizen of the present-day Hellenic Republic. Terribly inconvenient - all those border changing wars and revolutions in Europe, Asia, Africa and America.

I ask that we refrain from mentioning a person's nationality, unless it is without any doubt - i.e., the person possessed a certain nationality during his life, and that nation existed during his lifetime, or at least at some point in his (or her) life. And then only when it is pertinent. This second bit is another, entirely separate issue I hope to tackle some other time. To state it as a set of questions "When does a human being's gender, sexuality, religion, race, political affiliation, celibacy, widowhood or caste etc. need to be stated? Why do we choose certain attributes and leave out others? Do we, according to our bias and cultural conditioning, choose a certain type of human being to be "normal" and feel constrained to list any deviation?)

149.254.120.136 16:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC) SM, Herts, England

// FYI: The words "nation"/"native"/"national..." etc are derived from the Latin language verb "nasci" which is translated as "to be born" in English. "Belong to a collective of humans by being born one of them" does not require a modern concept of "nation state", not even political borders at all, to be a useful concept, and hence is independent of their changes.

The term "German nation(s)" was used already in medieval official political terminology, and it/they was/were certainly considered to have existed BEFORE the establishment of the "Holy Roman Empire" on German soil, and not to have vanished after its - factual, gradual desintegration in the late MA, and then - "official" dissolution by conquering Napoleon, nor did a "Nation" need to be "recreaed" in the 19th century. Therefore there is no problem for an individual to be counted within it at the time of GWL. That makes the major points you rise invalid.

You are right, in your other hints, that it is not an unproblematic or flawless concept - neither are any others used to clssify human collectives ore describe identities. But fact is that it is an inbuilt desire and need for human beings to order the whole world into groups and categories, for all sorts of practical, psychological and mental reasons. Just try to live a single whole day without doing so in ANY way consc. or unconsciously... 147.142.186.54 12:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Information missing

I was surprised when comparing the English and German language versions of the Leibniz article: you get a noticeably different picture here and there. One bit I noticed especially was that he looks more "tied to Britain" here (emphasis on the link to the rulers of Hannover [german spelling]). On the other hand he was also founder and many years' president of the Prussian Academy or Society of Science, advising and collaborating with the regional "First lady" in Berlin. The former president of the national philosophers' association (to which certainly GWL would also have belonged, had it - and national unity - existed at his time, and which he would probably also have presided over) and also former head of the philosophy departement of the Technical University of that town, situated in the district that bears the name of the castle which her husband built for and named after her, is a Leibniz expert and editor of some periodical devoted to him, I believe to remember. So there exists a bit of "regional patriotism" in that part of Germany connected to GWL - but you wouldn't have guessed it reading (English) WP.

Why I don't add such information myself ? - Because I wasted so much time with the Neo-Panslavism-activist rubbish and am sufficiently disgusted by that affair that I won't contribute in that way; so 'just this hint.

Sophophilos

Afterword: I have to correct myself, there is a brief mentioning of his acting in the way I described, and correspondence with her, but quite "hidden" and scattered in two remote corners of the article, therefore of little weight, it would appear to the reader.

[the number signature belongs to a library network, so I am not responsible for all that is registered under it]147.142.186.54 15:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC) SelvoNT 18:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


Under the philosophy section, discussion of the analytic-synthetic distinction is missing. His work was one of the primary catalysts for Hume and Kants work. This is also missing from the "analytic-synthetic distinction" article. Anyone with knowledge on the subject should update both pages (possibley linking them.

[edit] Language use

The article section on his "Writings" gives percentage figures for three languages he used.

a) On which basis was this calculated (when, by whom), counting what (e.g. only printed works) ?

b) The editor's homepage ( in German language) says that a smaller portion of the Nachlass is also in English, Dutch, Italian and Russian. I wonder whether that refers to received letters only ? (Otherwise the three main languages could not add up to 100 %.) 147.142.186.54 13:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


//Addenda:

There are some interesting (so I find, at least) backgrounds to GWL's language use.

Why would he NOT use mainly his own language for his writings ?

Well, Latin was the continental language of all intellectuals of that time, "transporting" all the tradition and inheritance ("accumulated brain work") from classical antiquity and the Middle Ages and Renaissance, cultivated by the international community of great minds. That was hard to match for any individual younger language.

Then Germany did not have one SINGLE cultural centre even at the peak of its political power (High MA), not to speak of later centuries of territorial desintegration, such as had France or Britain, to act as a "motor" for national language standartization and development (although a metropolis thrives at the comparative loss of other towns, and it went hand in hand with suppression of the languages - and literatures - of conquered peoples, Occitan and Celtic, therefore such development is a two-sided coin, and a my-win-your-loss game also).

Then French had an "easy" start by being just a daughter of age-old and refined Latin, which makes transfers easy, means an almost uninterrupted development and continuation in contrast to creating a refined and literary language for the first time, as had to be done with German and others.

Then France was for centuries also the political and economic "superpower" of Europe, which can facilitate cultural development and refinement (although there is no "automatic" effect in that regard, is there...? ). Which in turn meant that much of its culture and fashions, esp. connected with the pompous-shining central court, was imitated by less shining European rulers (to the extent that e.g. even the king in/of Prussia would prefer to use its language to using the preceivedly "rustic" one that was his own).

Turning to "our hero": GWL had certainly no principle disliking for his own language (no "hate" or urge to "turn away"), just he did not find it an ideal "tool" for his - intellectual - work. He wrote himself a treatise entitled "Ermahnung an die Teutschen, ihren Verstand und Sprache beßer zu üben" (in 1682/83). Wherein he stated that he missed the mental "Scharffsinn", the "zarte Empfindlichkeit" and "gesellig-geschmackvolle" "Artigkeit" of latin scholars. He expressed the view that above all it was neccessary to practice "unsere Sprache in den Wißenschafften". He dreamt of improving the language in order to improve the independent "scharffsichtigen" use of reason. He wished to give "dem Verstand eine durchleuchtende clarheit".

- It is practically impossible to translate his (German, this time) expressions hundred percent adaequately, so I left them, including original (i.e.not modern) spelling, to give it some L.ian flavour. Some may be able to read German and understand, for the others I try to give English "approximations":

a) Title: "Admonition to the Germans, to employ/use/exercise their mind and language better".

b) he missed "astuteness/acumen/keen perception" (literally:"sharp sense"); "tender sensitivity"; "sociable-tasteful" "courteousness".

c) to practise "our language in the sciences" ( "wissen" is from a Germanic root that also survives in English "wise", whereas otherwise English has exchanged its shoots for latin terms; "Wissenschaften" in German encompasses ALL disciplines whereas English often uses seperate terms for "science/s" and "humanities").

d) lit. "sharp-sighted", or "keen" use of reason.

e) to give "to reason a clarity that is shining through" (here one cannot be both literal and idiomatic, I think). -

So he did not neglect his language, but rather saw himself as helping in its - then - still-needed development!

(The biggest step forward in enriching and refining German language in post-L.ian times came with the "Weimarer Klassik", i.e. poets and authors Goethe and Schiller, and then Romanticism [scholarship a la scholar-brothers Grimm, and numerous poets], and the 19th century also saw Germany develop into a leading nation in humanities studies [as testified e.g. by the inaugurational speech of the American Oriental Society, wherein German - esp. language - scholars are seen as THE role model] - but all that was post-Leibniz. Hence his pattern of language use.)

I do not know what of this would be interesting for which (and how many) English readers to what extend, and whether and how (and how much of) it should be incorporated into the article. Just I thought that when reading the very first sentence of the article (in its present form) one would necessarily wonder why..., and since I had recently read about this I thought I should do others the favour to provide background information, quickly - only it took much longer...

Regards, Sophophilos 147.142.186.54 13:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edition project

I have just tried to provide some information from the editor's homepage for English readers also. Since E. is not my first (but 3rd) language, some native speakers could have a look at it and see whether it should be stylistically improved. - I don't mind this "work" of mine being altered, if indeed you improve it...

Sophophilos 147.142.186.54 14:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Addendum:

There are additional websites by the individual institutions taking part in the edition project:

http://www.uni-muenster.de/Leibniz and its "links" section leading to those in the other three towns I mentioned.

All these are of course in German, so I do not know if it is considered to be of interest in this (Engl.) WP article and whether and where they should be added to it. 147.142.186.54 12:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC) 147.142.186.54 14:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

Don't we think all the quotes should be cited? Some of them come off as guesses, or not genuine quotes. For example, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" Is that in the Monadologie? Acumensch 7:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a - "relatively famous" - quote from Pre-Socratic philosopy, more precisely attributed to Parmenides, if my memory does not betray me. Though I do not know where in the L. article it appears ( ' will have to read the whole article again, you make me curious...). Regards, Sophophilos 147.142.186.54 14:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit under subsection "Monads"

With his theory of the Monads, Leibniz did not solve the problems of "interaction between mind and matter" nor "lack of individuation inherent to the system of Spinoza" (the latter is not really a problem at all), but merely found a way around them. Monads cannot interact with each other, so the problem solving quality of the first proposition is rather dubious; he merely eliminated the interaction in the first place. As for the second "problem", Leibniz countered it with his own theory, which can also be subjected to doubts, like Spinoza's.

If anyone finds a better term for "having gotten rid of", I ask them to replace it. As for the claim itself, I await counter-arguments.

Have a nice day. Aljoša Avani 23:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Topological Inaccuracy

The article reads:

"We also see that when Leibniz wrote, in a metaphysical vein, that 'the straight line is a curve, any part of which is similar to the whole...' he was anticipating topology by more than two centuries"

Someone who knows some topology as well as knowing Leibniz probably ought to clarify or correct this. Any unclosed curve that doesn't cross itself is topologically equivalent to a straight line, whether any parts of it are similar to the whole or not. I don't know whether there's some truth in a reformulated version of this statement or whether it's straightforwardly false, so I'm not going to delete it, but readers should at least treat it with caution.

Ornette

[edit] Optimism defense

The arguments in defense of optimism are preposterous.
First, it is no longer widely accepted in the scientific community that there are only 3 spatial dimensions (see String-Theory e.g.).
Second, we have no way of knowing that life evolved "on Earth only". The conditions suitable for sustaining life are not that special.
Finally - while it may be true that if the fine-structure constant alpha or other constants had been different, no complex structures would have emerged, this is in no way an argument for optimism. Basically - something else would have been the case and the questions shifts to why that state ought to be regarded as sub-optimal. After all, all of the arguments for optimism assume the rather egotistical notion that there are absolute moral values and that "good" or "best" is just what we think is "good" or "best" for us.

I move that this modern defense of optimism, which reads like a quite pathetic theological attempt at explaining away the theodicy problem involving the argument from fine-tuning of the universe (which is in itself an unsubstantial, flawed argument), be removed for the two reasons that
-it states certain things (3 spatial dimensions; life only evolved on Earth) as scientifically established facts while they are definitly not
and
-it certainly has nothing to do with Leibniz's thought and opus

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.86.190 (talk) 23:03, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The status of Leibniz as a 'polymath'

The division of the leibnizian contribution in 'areas of knowledge', such as physics, metaphysics, law, philosophy, logic, etc., does not find any evidence in the place where we properly find Leibniz, i.e., his writings.

In Leibniz, the question was merely one: natura ueritatis in uniuersum. The aforementioned atomization is just a Modern vice. Thus, I propose the substitution of the term 'polymath' in favor of 'philosopher'.

If a substantial agreement is achieved around this topic, a reworking should be done on the article's structure.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Guingu (talk • contribs) 11:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I have nothing against the modern division of science into branches of knowledge (though it causes increasing problems when they overlap, it's also not reasonable to do away with them). However, I agree that "polymath" is a better term. Leibniz was a philosopher in the language of his day, but today philosophy is seen as a more restricted discipline that encompasses only the most broad and/or foundational forays into math and science (or, in some lay uses, as having nothing to do with science at all).

I'm going to make this change. If there's objection, feel free to revert it and start a discussion here. Inhumandecency 17:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Letter quote

There is a passage from a letter by L. quoted in the section "Works and edition". Where is that to be found ? That did not become clear to me.

It is said to be from a letter addressed to one Vincent Placcius. Apparently there is no article on him at least in English WP. German language refenrence works that do not contain entries on him are the "Brockhaus Enzyklopädie" in 24 vol.s and the multi-vol. "Deutsche Biographische Enzyklopädie" ("German Biogr. Enc."). Are there variants of spelling his name ? Some Internet sources (apparently all in German language) mention him as a "Jurist (law scholar), Philosph und Theologe", or a "Philologe", or a "Polyhistor", who lived in the town of Hamburg in northern Germany; and all agree on his life span as 1642-1699.

Apparently the contributer to the article here who typed that passage meant to say that it was from a book by "Gerhardt" - but I did not find such book in the literature appedix to the article. Either I overlooked something, or there is a piece of information missing.

147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Good News for Leibniz pilgrims !!! Rejoyce ye all !

Happy news in this pre-Christmas season comes to all friends of Leibniz, and human learning in general, from the country where he dwelled on earth.

Two weeks ago I picked up a copy of a major German daily newspaper from the floor of the entrance hall of a venerable University institute (someone had left it there as a gift for me, I presume). It was the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" of decembre 3rd, 2007. (Politically rather conservative, but a good section on books and culture; many University teaching staff members read - and also write in - it.) On page 12 of said issue there is an article of medium length entitled

"Wissenschaft im Welfengewand - Die VW-Stiftung baut das Schloss in Herrenhausen wieder auf".

(That headline is intranslateable, I feel; wordplay and alliterations do not work in another language. But) The contents, in a nutshell: The German Volkswagen-Stiftung (endowment/foundation) has decided to re-erect the castle in the "world famous" ducal (later: royal) (baroque) gardens in Herrenhausen that served the Welfen (often spelled "Guelph" in English) dynasty as secondary residence in/just outside the city of Hannover ("Hanover" in English spelling) and was destroyed - as much of the city was - as the result of Allied "carpet bombing" in WW II (the infamous "break the will of the population"-policy of those years, no "accidental collateral damage" !). The building in classicist style is scheduled to be re-erected until the year 2012 at the latest (for an estimated 20 million Euro). Its central part is to serve as a medium size congress centre for the foundation. In one of the two side wings a collection of historical carriages is to be on display, transferred from the history museum in town. And...

"...Im anderen Flügel sollen Teile der unlängst zum Weltkulturerbe ernannten Briefe und Manuskripte des Universalgelehrten Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz gezeigt werden, der oft im angrenzenden Barockgarten wandernd debattierte..."

In my quick translation (aiming at a literal rendering, at the cost of sacrificing stylistic elegance) that reads:

"...In the other wing parts of the letters and manuscripts of the 'universal scholar' G.W.Leibniz shall be shown/on display, that have recently been declared parts of the World's Cultural Heritage; he often used to debate while strolling in the adjoining baroque gardens..."

There you are !

See you all "then" at that most thought-inspiring historical pilgrimage centre !

P.S.: Again, I am not sure whether - or how much of - that should be included in the article. I leave that for you to decide.

Sincerely - Sophophilos . 147.142.186.54 (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

____________________________________

Here's a tweak to your translation:
"...To be displayed in the other wing will be parts of the letters and manuscripts - recently declared part of the World's Cultural Heritage - of the 'universal scholar' G. W. Leibniz, who often debated while strolling in the adjoining baroque garden..."
And thanks for this news. Best, Anthony Krupp (talk) 17:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

_____________________________________

You are welcome, Anthony Krupp and all others.

And thanks for the immediate response and "amelioration". There is no change in information, but it looks better and reads more smoothly. I was aware that the German sentence structure cannot be retained in English (e.g. you do not have a declension of participles ), so I split it into two. But your formal trick ( "... - ... - ...") was more clever and elegant; in fact, I have sometimes used it myself when trying to render other authors' WP contributions more readable ! And my "used to debate" was superfluous (the habitual nature of this activity is already expressed in "oft"/"often") and not even literal, so better drop it.

I presume, the "Weltkulturerbe" mentioned in the article refers to the "Memory of the World Programme" of UNESCO.

Regards, Sophophilos 147.142.186.54 (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Monadology now within the realm of mathematics?

Seems to me there's an indication from this article that Leibniz's Monadology was fundamentally different than Newton's physics and managed to anticipate aspects of quantum mechanics and relativity. He also suggested the binary system of mathematics that lies inside of a computer to support Monadology.

So it seems like now is a good time to give Monadology a try as a mathematical hypothesis, a first for Monadology if I'm not mistaken. I've given it quite a bit of thought and I think its definitely within reach. I just need some experts in quantum mechanics and neuroscience, and a couple more programemrs. MobyDikc (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pronunciation

A little ogg pronunciation file would be nice. Randomblue (talk) 20:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikilink of Monad in Article

The wikilink of Monad that appears several times within the article, in the section entitled 'The Monads' as well as the infobox just links to a disambiguation page. It would be good the links were changed to link to a more specific page that deals with the Monads that are relevant to Leibniz. I believe that the best page would be Monadology, the page that 'monadism' redirects to. --Credema (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That and monism, done. Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 07:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discovered vs Invented

Currently Leibniz's development of Calculus and the Binary System reads that he "discovered" these things, as if they were pre-existing constructs that he uncovered. It seems more accurate to say that he "invented" calculus (as did Newton), and the binary system. It is one thing to say that the zero/one distinction existed prior to Leibniz - which is obviously true - but establishing that as a number system... and later as a "yes/no" distinction... seems clearly an invention.

Gacggt (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you studied calculus much? To me it is natural to talk about calculus being discovered. 99.233.20.151 (talk) 16:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
This is of course a question that has occupied mathematicians for ages, over which even today no consensus exists - whether mathematical entities are discovered, constructed or invented. See philosophy of mathematics. I don't think there is any doubt, by the way, that Leibniz himself was what we would nowadays call a mathematical realist and would not have hesitated to use the word "discovered". DAVID ŠENEK 08:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, just to illustrate that the question is not so ignorant - go to Isaac Newton's page. You'll see he and Leibniz are credited for "developing" calculus; which is much closer to "inventing" than it is to "discovering". So there is an inconsistency to the terminology between the pages on Newton & Leibniz. Gacggt (talk) 22:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)