Talk:Gothic architecture

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Contents

[edit] Norman and Angevin Kings

I edited this England, under her independent Norman kings, had large domains in France. and made it this England, under Angevin kings was in personnal union with large domains in France.

Here are my reasons:

  • First when the gothic architecture was introduced in England it was no longer ruled by Norman but by Angevin Kings (See reference I added some time ago to the article from "L'art gothique") and the Angevin and Norman dynasty are clearly different ones, there is also way enough materials on wikipedia with loads of sources (no, not all mine and not even close) to back that.
  • Under the Norman kings the only land in "union" (that's already a strong word as the two titles were distinct) was Normandy. It was only under the Angevin kings the "union" including Anjou and Aquitaine. To put Norman and large French territories is misleading too, even though "large" is subjective and some would consider Normandy large by itself it's still small compared to the sum of lands ruled by the following Angevin dynasty (and therefore you can't say it's large compared to the "Angevin Empire")
  • Independant king is a pleonasm, besides of this as count and duke in France they weren't exactly independant so to put it together with "England had large domains in France" in a sentence is misleading as it clearly implies that England as a state controlled French territories, when it is not quite correct (the states were separed), and it is a matter of debates. There are controversies around that point so let's not put a strong statement (some sources from academists and historians will say it was indeed England ruling parts of France, some equaly numerous will say the reverse and some will say it was a mere confederation and everyone has good points) like that one and affirm it as truth without a single reference. Although shorter the new sentence at least avoids controversies by putting a simple statement without too much interpretations.
  • I linked the article about the Angevin Empire which describes the whole context and gives, as much as possible, all the points of view about this political context. The readers will be able, if he makes it through, to make his own mind from several different perspectives (all backed with references) as to include them in this gothic architecture would be too much.

Matthieu 11:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

Please remove "JOHN IS THE COOLEST..." from the article please.

Cherokee40 01:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Cherokee40

[edit] Gothic = dark?

ij Removed the stuff about Gothic architecture being dark -- One of Suger's goals was that it NOT be dark -- hence the windows. The gothic church was supposed to transport people to a more holy realm. One of the points of flying butresses was to allow the churches to be lighter, with more open space, and more windows in the walls -- not to be dark and heavy. And I don't EVEn know what to say about the gargoyles. JHK


Dark should perhaps be replaced by rudeness, severity, intensity or something along those lines. I'm new to this, but am quite sure that a valuable contibution to this page would be the works of John Ruskin, who wrote extensively on the definition of gothic architecture. Someone should add this, it is he who describes it as rude and severe changefull and amongst the highest in architecture. sorry for the bad grammar. Alans22 19:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)ABS

"Dark, severe etc." The comments here were made a long time ago, and the article has been largely rewritten. Modern Art Historians would probbably noot choose the words ""rude and severe" to describe Gothic architecture. Let us presume that Ruskin was not looking at the chapel of King's College, Cambridge when he made these comments.
This article describes the architecture and its development. It also briefly describes Gothic Revival architecture, which has its own article. While Ruskin's books reflected a renewed interest in the "Gothic", this had already taken place, without his influence, as early as the mid 18th century.
I have added a tag directing to the Gothic revival article, where Ruskin's influence is discussed. In this article, which is not England focussed, he is simply included among "Oxford Movement and others".

--Amandajm 08:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeframe?

Can we please put a timeframe here? I'm arguing with my wife over whether Gothic came before or after Romanesque Architecture

They were in part simultaneous, but Romanesque predates Gothic. JHK

I'll put back that part about Gothic revival, which waas good, but that stuff I just cut was plain silly. Or at least very badly written. JHK

[edit] Easternmost Gothic cathedral?

After I removed the statement that the cathedral in Zagreb was the most eastern Gothic cathedral, Wetman posted this on my talk page:

Hi! Give us some clues about Gothic east of Zagreb: monuments and dates would be a start. Not any easy subject I know. jump in at the deep end! Welcome!

So made a quick search and found a few Gothic cathedrals east of Zagreb. Not too many for sure (and I'll try to find more later) but certainly enough to prove that the Zagreb cathedral is not the easternmost.

City                Longitude        Gothic cathedral         Built
Zagreb          15.6 E

Vienna             16.2 E          St. Stephen's Cathedral         1359-1433
Bratislava      17.1 E          St. Martin's Concathedral       13th C-1452
Gdańsk          18.6 E          St. Mary's Concathedral         1379-1496
Kraków          19.6 E          Wawel Cathedral                 began 1320

Note that these are only the biggest cites with most impressive cathedrals but one could list many more. Anyway, thanks to Wetman for encouragement! Kpalion

Be bold! Take your list now-- you did the homework-- and add them to the entry. Imitate whatever format you find (a good idea til you start recasting clumsy formats yourself) Put Gothic architecture on your "My watchlist page" so you can check in and see what's happening. I don't want to steal your stuff and do this myself. Wetman 01:59, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
OK, so here's what I did:
  • added some East European structures to the list
  • changed some names to make the list a bit more consistent (like Notre Dame --> Our Lady's, it'a an English Wikipedia after all)
  • sorted them alphabetically, usually by city names
  • separated Gothic from Neo-Gothic and added Westminster Palace to the latter; I hope some day there will be a separate article about Neo-Gothic architecture, but for the time being the Neo-Gothic list may stay here
It would be good to add not only churches to the list - so far there are only sacral structures on the Gothic list. We will need to add some civilian and military structures (city walls, castles, etc) as well. Kpalion 02:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I wonder if Rabelais used "bigots" for goths ? This word has another senses in modern French And especially in a religious context.
Ericd 20:21, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It has been argued (most recently by architectural historian Dan Cruickshank in "Britains Best Buildings") that Durham Cathedral, as well as being a superb example of Romanesque architecture, also contains the first evidence of Gothic design.

The nave contains pointed traverses and pointed arches while flying buttresses are concealed over the aisles - the main elements of Gothic, 20 years before this style was seen elsewhere in Europe.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.153.219.170 (talk • contribs) .

In consideration of the above comment re: Durham Cathedral, would anyone object to updating the page to reflect this? If there is doubt over the earliest examples this should be stated, otherwise the authority of the text is compromised.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.189.234.178 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] A recent addition

An anonymous user made this recent addition to the opening paragraph:

Interestingly enough, the Gothic style of archetecture was more flattering than Romanesque. Cathedrals made in this style were very popular through out Europe as they had more windows and color to boast. This is fairly recent style of building that was later copied and developed in the centuries to come.

I was hoping someone could integrate this into the main body of the article, in some way. I don't really understand what's being said here, but it should not be in the opening paragraph (a summary) unless it is expanded in the main body. Stbalbach 20:36, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Distracting blank spaces

Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not taking sides here, but just want to point out some things. There is a major break in the continuity, see the Wikipedia style guidelines on how to write a good lead section and the purpose of the lead section. It's an abstract of the article contents, not a part of the main text, it's a summary. However it's a user-defined variable to see the TOC or not, and I think stylistic issues should be left to article contributors. Blank spaces can be nicely filled with images, and by reducing the number of section headings and thus length of the TOC. As well with small screens, blank spaces are not such a problem, for example on my laptop screen this article has a very minor amount of blank space since the image fills most of it. Stbalbach 21:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Quite true. It shouldn't become an issue, nor should it be interpreted as an iron-clad directive to be enforced by enforcers in the name of uniformity. Wrapping the table of contents should be an oped option at each article, assessed on an individual basis, merely in the interests of a handsome, readable format for the viewer. --Wetman 22:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ely cathedral

To describe Ely cathedral as a gothic cathedral is misleading. From the outside, and from inside the long nave, the primacy of style is Romanesque. From the crossing, with its famous octogon, to the east end are a mixture of Early English and decorated gothic. Ely's Norman nave wasn't reworked like both those of Winchester or Canterbury to approximate the later fashionable gothic style. Cathedrals of England - Alec Clifton-Taylor & An Outline of European Architecture - Nikolaus Pevsner

[edit] What happened to England?

Gothic architecture in England seems to have lost non-domestic information: does anyone know when such info was vandalised, or does it need re-written? ...dave souza 18:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lund Cathedral

Lund Cathedral, included here in the list of notable Gothic structures, is rather known to be of Romanesque architectural style. I don't think it should be present in this list. Please see the article (Lund Cathedral) for pictures and details. Atilim Gunes Baydin 13:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First paragraph needs fixing

Someone obviously pulled a prank here, but I'm only a casual wikipedia user so I'll let someone more dedicated correct it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.17.86.52 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] St. Vitus Cathedral is gothic structure?

The end of building of St. Vitus Cathedral is in XX century. So we must say the cathedral is partialy neogothic structure. On the picture we see the main part of the tower which is evidently medieval but the top of the tower is baroque architecture. I think we should remove this picture because it can make false imagination of the gothic structures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.136.151.181 (talk • contribs) .

Restored image with a comment on tower. Unfinished towers are typical of gothic cathedrals, there are very few examples of medival stone spires. the most notable ones like Cologne and Ulm were finished in the 1880s.
Also, we should make a distinction between neogothic and contemporary completions of gothic structures using original plans and often, original construction techniques. -- Petri Krohn 22:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I made the distinction talking about but there is difference between Cologne Cathedral which was complete with original plans and the tower we can see on this picture. The towers in Cologne are whole gothic and top of tower on this picture is evidently baroque. Can we show it as an example of gothic structures? --195.136.151.181 06:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If that is the point, we should also remove the photograph of Notre-Dame de Paris, which was almost totally re-invented by Eugène Viollet-le-Duc in XIX century, and is, therefore, neogothic in what we can see. I think the best thing is to keep both, puntualizing this under the image. Strong restoration in XIX century and completion in Baroque or Renaissance is is really common in gothic structures.--Garcilaso 11:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] characteristics

hello, i am doing an extra credit report for school and i need three characteristics for gothic architecture. i found that the 3 characteristics were very faint i couldnt quite understand what they were. i know that they talk about pointed ahrches and and gothic cathedrals could be highley decorated. but i could still not find out the third characteristic, i was hoing someone could say in another post or edit the page so it might be a little more understandible.(209.247.21.203 21:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)) and also i am very very new so please HELP!(209.247.21.203 21:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC))

Two ideas that should help: use a search engine (the first hit looks useful to me, but no need to stop there), and always use more sources than Wikipedia – it's a starting point, not The Definitive Answer... Good luck, .. dave souza, talk 21:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic - Medieval

I see that the Italian churches are listed here. They would usually be characterized as 'medieval' rather than Gothic. But there is no category more encompassing category 'medieval'. What to do?Brosi 20:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brick Gothic

Hi, I was wondering what people think of the brick gothic section in this article? To me it seems like it’s given undue prominence (lovely though the photo is!). I’ve checked a few of the main reference works on Architecture/western architecture/Gothic (Pevsner, Banister Fletcher 20th ed., Watkins, Frankl -index only) and in none of them does the term brick gothic appear, all I can find are a few very brief references to particular gothic buildings being made out of brick.

It would be silly to get rid of it but I think it would be better treated as a style of a particular area in a similar way to, for example, Rayonnant, Decorated or Mudejar gothic. Seeing as though there is also an article devoted to brick gothic I think we could safely do away with the photo from the gothic architecture article but keep the text (there aren’t individual photos for each of the other gothic styles mentioned, most of which command a number of pages each in the books I mentioned). I hope this isn’t too controversial, but the article does give a distorted view of what is generally understood to be gothic architecture. I’d really like to hear what people think before I go ahead though! Thanks --Ivanivanovich 01:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I just happened to see this article in passing and was struck that the Brick Gothic photo seemed to dominate too much (agreed it's a good one, but there could be a link to Gothic architecture photos in commons). -Rodge500 08:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attention all interested parties

I'm about to get stuck into this article and expand it. I don't think it's the right place to list the stylistic periods of different countries.

I've done a bit of a search, and find no article on French Gothic, and likewise, no article on English Gothic. There are three articles dealing with the phases of English Gothic and containing mainly info drawn from Britanica. However, the headings Early English etc are only relevant if you know exactly what you are looking for, or have visited this page first and followed the links.

The proposal is to create several brand new pages and transfer that info which pertains most directly to the country, and fill it out with more detail-

--Amandajm 13:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

No, please don't cannibalize this article. A better way: simply cut and paste into your new article any relevant material you find here, and build the new article upon it. Insert a hatnote Main article: French Gothic architecture etc etc at each appropriate place in this article. And when you're finished, you might check that the brief coverage remaining here is still an acceptable concise version of the new article that you've expanded. This way encyclopedic (i.e. comprehensive) coverage is maintained at Gothic architecture and new articles are nested within the broad article. --Wetman 22:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Wetman, and all,
I'm not in the habit of cannibalizing article. By the time time that I have finished here, it will be a considerably improved article with a section on influences and the stylistic development out of Romanesque, more discussion of the advantages of the pointed arch, a broad indication of stylistic changes that took place over the period and some of the distinctive regional developments etc etc etc.
It doesn't need a baldly stated list of the periods of French Gothic with no indication of the stylistic development that accompanied the names. That list need to go on a new page that actually tells you something about the development of French Gothic.
The info on English Gothic has now been combined onto one page, which I will improve.
I'm planning the page on Italian Gothic.
With some of the others I might block in an outline of the areas that need covering. My knowledge of Spanish Gothic, for example, isn't very extensive.
Wetman, you're probably aware of what I have done with Renaissance architecture. I've just finished writing two articles on Italian Renaissance painting (can you believe that there wasn't one?) and Italian Renaissance painting, development of themes. I've rewritten Sistine Chapel ceiling, and reconstituted Leonardo da Vinci, written Leonardo da Vinci - scientist and inventor. I'm serious about improving this encyclopedia's coverage of art and architecture.
So the inuse banner may be up for a while, and It's probably not worth getting too excited about the details of someones favourite building going temporarily. I can assure you that there will be a great more buildings cited as examples by next week.

--Amandajm 05:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It's looking like a huge improvement already! I agree that this isn't the place for lists of the different styles in different countries, it would be better to have a couple of paragraphs which briefly explain how gothic architecture developed differently across Europe instead. Ivanivanovich 10:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison

At the risk of offending the person who wrote it, I have removed something that I strongly disagree with, that the intention of the Gothic cathedral is to compare the greatness of God with the smallness and (I can't remember whether it said useless or worthless) nature of humanity. No. That's not what it is about.

The facade impresses with grandeur, and overwhelms, yes. Christ sits in Majesty or Judgement at the door, along with the terrors of hell and often the ten wise and foolish Bridesmaids. Anyone who enters is reminded to repent and humble themselves.

But once through the door, the effect is not to oppress the sinner with their smallness and uselessness; the aim is to raise the sinner with a knowledge of salvation. The reason that people, tourists as well as worshippers, go to cathedrals (Canterbury, has hundreds of paying visitors every day), is not because they feel useless and small, but because the cathedral has the power to inspire, to uplift, to refresh and to heal. By the very nature of the building, a great number of people experience this whether they are believers or not.

It is probable that not all architects realised this function, and either by accident or design, built oppressive buildings. But on the whole, the vastness itself does not oppress, (unless one has agrophobia I suppose). The long naves of England say "walk this way!", the sky-high vaults of France demand "Look up!" the wide aisles of Germany say "Wander!", the clearly defined progression of Italian gothic churches invites "Come forward!" while the complexity of Spanish cathedrals impels one should "Explore!" While I recognise that not everybody has the same experience, I think these are in general the sorts of reasons why cathedrals are still highly valued and are still meeting needs that are in no way associated with participating in the formal services.

--Amandajm 02:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arch types

The equilateral arch is not, as specified in the article, of altitude (height) equal to its width. Please see: Image:Equlateral_arch.PNG. The altitude is X\sqrt 3 / 2. (See also: Equilateral_triangle)

Flip purr 19:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

purrfectly right! will fix it. --Amandajm 06:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excesive generalization: Spanish Gothic section.

I have just seen the problem with that anonymous editor that is deleting once and again a sentence about Spanish Gothic. I think that the problem is not the truth or not of one sentence or the "alternative", but the excessive generalization that is stated in the seven sentences that talk about "Spanish Gothic cathedrals".

First of all the paragraph lacks of a chronological and stylistic differentiation, that IS important to understand the variety of styles of what is not only "Spanish Gothic", all in one, but "Spanish High Gothic" or the later "Levantino Gothic" and "Isabelline Gothic" to say only three clear examples differenciated by their chronology and, of course, by their shape, spatial concepts and ornamentation. They cannot be analised in the same sentence as a whole. (Not talking about Mudejar Gothic, that goes in parallel with the other styles, and that could be considered a hybrid style). This hasn`t got to be necessarely much longer, but much clearer.

  • comparatively short and wide could fit to High Gothic cathedrals.
  • characterized by its structural achievements and the unification of space, by th anonymous could fit to the Levantino Gothic.

I hope this helps.--Garcilaso 09:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah! and I find another simplification in talking about the characteristics of Gothic Cathedrals. Gothic churches, abbeys, or civil Gothic are not as easy to make simple regional comparisons as the cathedrals, but are sometimes as important to the style as these. Some examples could be the Levantine Lonja de la Seda or the Isabelline San Juan de los Reyes in Toledo, for Spanish, or Westminster Abbey for the English, and so on...--Garcilaso 09:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
What you are saying is true, but there is no room for it all there. Needs separate article.
The most diverse by is English Gothic with which only Spain is comparable in diversity. Germany and France have considerable regional diversity, but not the huge stylistic development that occurred in England, particularly in the vaults. Italy is not so diverse, except Milan and Sicily. They all need separate articles. How about you get stuck into Spanish Gothic and define all the various developments and styles?

Amandajm 10:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Just read your comments again. I'm not prepared to go into the different styles and features of different periods. The effect of doing that would be to completely negate the broad regional comparisons. This is not a history of the styles of each country. That would require another ten thousand words. If someone wants to know that characterists of each phase of french, English, Spanish gothic etc, they need to look at the main. If there is not a main, then it needs writing.
I think that as a generalised statement about the broad character of Spanish Gothic, the section is adequate, with one exception- there is not a clear enough statement of the "Moorish" influence. This is mentioned in the body of the article, but not in this section. I will set that to rights. Amandajm 11:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
After the changes it looks better, although it continues somehow vague. Indeed, I agree with you with that of the "main articles", and it is my fault not to have enough time by the moment to write some vaulable content on it. It will be a priority when I have a moment. The handicap of the language makes my editions slower that any native speaker's if I want them to be correct. By the way, should I remark that Mudéjar is not the same as Islamic architecture? On the other hand, although there were influences of Al Andalus in almost all the Christian architectural styles of the Middle Ages in the Iberian Peninsula, the influence in Gothic is very delimited to the Mudéjar Gothic, in the rest of styles the influences are puntual or even anecdotical. Thirteenth century was by far one of the most "international" moments of Spanish architecture.
Anyway, you don´t seem to get my point: I don´t want to enlarge the section, but to make the sentences match to the reality of the styles more than they do by now. When I find the moment to edit the section carefully will I have your help?
And last, but not least, it could be considered a bit restrictive to face the local developements of any style ONLY with comparisons, and even more ONLY of comparisons OF THE CATHEDRALS. if all the regional sections become a bit longer, I don´t think it will be a catastrophe.
I hope my reflections are read as what they are: an attempt to improve the quality of the article contents, although of course, the level of this one, and of Renaissance architecture, is much better than before Amandajm. Besides, I knew because of your careful way of behaving in Wikipedia that it is always a pleasure to participate in talk pages with you!
Thanks, --Garcilaso 15:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish Gothic

Someone who is not registered and who uses a number of different computers keeps changing this section, without comprehending what the actual purpose of the section is.

If you are that person, PLEASE READ THIS!

There is a heading that says

[edit] 4 Regional differences

under the heading it has subheadings:-

  1. France
  2. England
  3. Germany and the Holy Roman Empire
  4. Spain
  5. Italy

Under these subheadings the distinguishing characteristics of each region are compared. If you do not know what this word means, please look up "compare" and "comparison" in your Spanish/English dictionary, because this is something you do not seem to be understanding.

  1. French cathedrals (and some German cathedrals in the French style) have interiors that are very very high and vertical, but not in England, Spain, Italy or other parts of Germany.
  2. English cathedral are designed to look long and horizontal, but not in France, Spain, Germany or Italy.
  3. Germany Cathedrals are often designed as hall churches. Even when they are not, they are designed to look very spacious. but not in France, where they look tall, and not usually in England where they look long and not usually in Spain where they look complex.
  4. Spanish Cathedrals are often designed to look wide, with separate units opening off the main space. They do not look very very tall. They do not look very very long. They are spacious, but they look more complex and compartmented than German cathedrals.
  5. Italian cathedrals look as if all the parts are clearly defined, usually by colour as well as architectural forms. This occurs in brick Gothic churches in other places, but is a widespread and distinguishing feature of Italian Gothic. Spanish, English, French and German Cathedrals that are built in stone like Cologne don't look like that.


The comparisons are partly a matter of appearance. It is the way the buildings are designed to look. So:-

  • A narrow building might look very tall, even if it is not.
  • A wide, tall building might not look very tall, because it looks wide and spacious.
  • A building which actually has a lot of space might look quite narrow, because of the positions of the columns

For example:- the interior space of the nave and chancel at Barcelona is actually more than a metre higher than the nave of Winchester. But it doesn't look as high, because it is wider. On the other hand, the nave of Winchester is very steeply pointed and gives the impression of tremendous height. When you see it, it would be easy to believe it is the highest vault in England, but it is not as high as many others, including the wooden ceiling on the Romanesque cathedral at Ely.

These churches are surpassed by Beauvais, Amiens and Cologne by about 20 metres. In other words the interiors of some Gothic churches are nearly twice as high as Barcelona, Winchester etc etc.

  • About the "few" pinnacles. A pinnacle is a very little spire. Some churches, eg, Milan Cathedral have hundreds of them. Most Spanish Cathedral have straight parapets and just a "few" pinnacles. Not as many as in Northern France, or England, or Germany or at Milan. Just a "few". The straight parapet is a feature of many Spanish Gothic buildings.

Now this is clear, please stop changing the comparative statements. Just accept that by comparison with an English, French, or German Gothic church, the main internal space of a Spanish cathedral appear short and wide, rather than long and narrow or very tall.

So, please

  • do not keep adding the word "high"
  • do not add words like luminous instead. They all look luminous.
  • do not delete words like "few".
  • do not keep adding "general" material about Gothic, or about lots of Spanish Cathedrals. This is a "brief" comparison.

Do go and write new articles about individual Spanish Cathedrals. Also- Get yourself a sign-n name, so that even when you change computers, you are identified as a particular individual. Serious editors do not like dealing with people who are just a string of different nubers. We cannot converse with you. And every time you edit, leave an explanation in the "Edit Summary" box. You are not a new editor any more, so you should be begunning to find your way around these things.

Amandajm 10:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great article

Congratulations to the editors on a great article, beautifully illustrated. Any thoughts of taking it to FA? PiCo 12:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish parapets

Burgos Cathedral, these pierced parapets with few pinnacles are a typical and distinctive Spanish characteristic.

The parapets at Milan.

The Choir of Cologne, Germany

Battlemented and pinnacled parapets at Gloucester, England.

[edit] Please fix the vandalism - I don't know how

The second paragraph of the first section reads "Originating in the pants of a million Kingsland High School girls what can i say beside GOD DAMN!! 12th century France and lasting into the 16th century."

I can't find the "edit" link for the first section, so I can't fix it myself. Someone please fix this vandalism.

128.193.141.160 20:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correction to author's name

This is my first time editing and couldn't find the "Edit Summary" box I was supposed to make a comment in. I simply changed the incorrect spelling of the first reference - Jean Bony author of "French Gothic Architecture Twelfth and Thirteenth Century". The name was incorrectly spelt Boney. I know the correct spelling because I work for his widow and have seen this book on her bookcase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billsylv (talk • contribs) 20:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! A quick Google turns up the link http://www.dictionaryofarthistorians.org/bonyj.htm. William Avery (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Westminster Abbey

Why no photo of Westminster Abbey which is one of the most famous, if not the most famous gothic building in the world? Signsolid (talk) 03:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, OK, Will do Amandajm (talk) 07:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical developments / Timeline

Even though Gothic architecture has had diverse developments in different countries, there should be a section about its general historical development, from the early experiences at Suger's Saint Denis (and Durham??) and early development in Northen France, then its adoption in Europe as a whole (with many French architects being employed as far as Cyprus), on to its fragmentation into various national styles.

For example, some parallels can be drawn between the English and French styles:

  • The "Early English" style is an adaptation of the early tGothic style invented in the Paris region a few decades earlier;
  • The "Decorated, Geometric" period seems rather similar to the "Rayonnant" style of French cathedrals with its geometric tracery of trefoils and quaterfoils;
  • The "Decorated, Curvilinear" period is the same as French "flamboyant".
  • The "Perpendicular" style is very specifically English and has no equivalent in France or Germany.

Cvereb (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline/Parallels

  • I agree that some more about the historic development would be advantegeous.
  • The parallels are dealt with to an extent under the discussion of arches and types of tracery. I haven't attempted to give specific timeframes for every country, simply because each country needs its own article that lists those things.

We have a article length limitation here, because if it gets too big, it won't load on some browsers, so we have to be content with an article, not a full-length book. Which is what it would take, if I attempt to explain all the relationships you are suggesting. Amandajm (talk) 09:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)