Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews

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Contents

[edit] Good Work

You took Authentic Matthew by Acjelen, and wrote an article, of which, we can all be proud.

--Poorman

[edit] I will be merging in some material

Having secured the agreement of Doc and Poorman, I will be working on merging in what material can be kept from Authentic Matthew into Gospel of the Hebrews. The reason for the merge is that "Gospel of the Hebrews" is the only term current in contemporary English-language scholarship and that "authentic Matthew" is not a title but a description, the title being given by Jerome elsewhere as "Gospel of the Hebrews" (Evangelium quod Hebraeorum). I will take care to cite sources and remain NPOV. Please see the work in progress at User:Peter Kirby/Gospel of the Hebrews and comment here. Thank you for your attention. --Peter Kirby 08:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gospel of the Hebrews on wikisource

I have compiled all the possible references to the Gospel of the Hebrews on Wikisource. It can serve as a reference for our discussions here, and as a place to link from the article Gospel of the Hebrews. --Peter Kirby 11:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes from scholars on the Gospel of the Hebrews

(Previous talk archived, to focus on the new version of the article.)

I have compiled a collection of quotes from various scholars on the Gospel of the Hebrews here. This is certainly not a proposed article draft. Rather, I am putting all these quotes up so that others can see what I am working with. Please let me know what you think of the material and what direction you think the article should take. What conclusions should be reported and how? I'd like to get some feedback before I proceed to write the revised article. --Peter Kirby 19:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] redirect resurrected as article

Someone who knows something about the subject, please see Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Thanks. Tomertalk 02:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

What objection would you have to putting the material about the “authority” of the Gospel of Matthew (original) under the article Gospel of the Hebrews, if it is not already there? It seems to me that an article on conspiracy should focus on the conspiracy. I think that that would make a much better article. Bejnar 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I will have a go on both of the above ! --MeBee 06:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added by MeBee

Both articles seem to be lacking those facts that to point to the Gospel of Hebrews being the only Gospel to be written by Matthew. Since no copy of The Gospel of the Hebrews has survived, the only source we have is the Church Fathers.

[edit] How Many Hebrew Gospels?

The Church Fathers write that there was only one Hebrew Gospel.

" They call it the Gospel of the Hebrews, for in truth Matthew alone in the New Testament expounded and declared the Gospel in Hebrew using Hebrew script." Epiphanius, The Panarion

[edit] Authorship

The Church Fathers cite that Matthew wrote The Gospel of the Hebrews

"Matthew collected the teachings of Jesus (ta logia) in the Hebrew language and everyone translated them as best he could. Papius also gives another story of a woman accused of many sins before the Lord, in the Gospel of the Hebrews." Eusebius, Church History.

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel of the Hebrews in their own language while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies

"The very first account to be written was by Matthew, once a tax collector but later an apostle of Jesus Christ. Matthew published it for the converts from Judaism and composed it in Hebrew letters." Eusebius, Church History.

[edit] Why?

It was needed, as Matthew was about to leave.

"They (the Apostles) were led to write only under the pressure of necessity. Matthew, who had first preached the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going to other nations, committed the Gospel to writing in his native language. Therefore he supplied the written word to make up for the lack of his own presence to those from whom he was sent." Eusebius, Church History.

"Matthew, also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in Hebrew script for the sake of those of the circumcision." Jerome, On Illustrious Men

[edit] History of this work

"Pantaenus was one of those, and is said to have gone to India. It is reported that among the Christians there that he had found the Gospel of Matthew. This had anticipated his own arrival, for Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached to them, and left with them the writings of Matthew in Hebrew, which they had preserved till that time. After many good deeds, Pantaenus finally became the head of the School in Alexandria, and expounded the treasures of divine doctrine both orally and in writing." Eusebius, Church History.

"Matthew, also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in Hebrew script for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. This Gospel was afterwards translated into Greek (and the Greek has been lost) though by what author uncertain. The Hebrew original has been preserved to this present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilus diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having this volume transcribed for me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, Syria, who use it." Jerome, On Illustrious Men 3


"In the Gospel of the Hebrews, written in the Chaldee and Syriac language but in Hebrew script, and used by the Nazarenes to this day (I mean the Gospel of the Apostles, or, as it is generally maintained, the Gospel of Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Caesarea)" Jerome, Against Pelagius

[edit] Size

"It is important to note that the Gospel of the Hebrews is 2200 lines, 300 fewer than Greek Matthew." Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople, in his Stichometry

[edit] Authentic?

"In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and Ebionites use which we have recently translated from Hebrew to Greek, and which most people call The Authentic Gospel of Matthew " Jerome, Commentary on Matthew

" They call it the Gospel of the Hebrews, for in truth Matthew alone in the New Testament expounded and declared the Gospel in Hebrew using Hebrew script." Epiphanius, The Panarion

[edit] Response to MeBee's above comments

MeBee, are you a sockpuppet of User:Melissadolbeer, because your writing style looks extremely similar. ? Clinkophonist 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, I think your argument is (a) worthless, (b) extremely contrived to the extent that no serious academic would even accept it for review, and (c) original research. Clinkophonist 22:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Bingo - Clinkophonist. I'd say you just scored four right answers. --Doc ask? 22:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contents Section

I was unsure of this statement in the "Contents" section of the article:

Ironically, we know just how long the lost Gospel of the Hebrews was: 2200 lines, just 300 lines shorter than the canonical Greek Matthew. So it is an odd claim that the Hebrew Matthew is taken to be an 'embellishment' is some ways, since it is shorter than the canonical version.

The fact it is spoken of as an "odd claim" sounds like POV pushing. An equally valid scenario, if such were allowed, would be that the Gospel of Hebrews is shorter than Matthew because the author of GOH edited out certain key sections of Matthew he disagreed with. Of course, such a claim wouldn't be allowed in the article text itself, I am just stating how this claim seems (to me) to be fallacious.

BTW, 300 lines isn't much. :\ And I understand the arguments from the paragraph before this, as I have heard them applied to the canonical New Testament in Bart D. Ehrmann's book, "Misquoting Jesus", but I still think it needs to be cited. Drumpler 09:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)