Talk:Goryeo

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[edit] Empire...

Should the fact that Goryeo "functioned" as an empire (which, in my opinion, is misleading and wrongly emphasised) really take up that much of the introduction? I might be in the minority among Koreans in feeling that being associated with empire is nothing to brag about, but there is a host of problems that come from claiming that Goryeo functioned as an empire. The gross simplification of equivalating hwangje to emperor aside, the significance of taking on imperial trappings would be lost to most general readers not versed in ancient East Asian order. Besides, Goryeo did not conquer many different peoples and made them imperial subjects, as many general readers might understand "functioning as an empire" to mean. --Iceager 18:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Response to "Empire..."

Well, one must understand what it means to be an empire in the traditional Asian world. An empire in a westerner's point of view is a nation that conquers other ehtnic groups and incorporates them into its society. However, an empire in East Asia is merely a fully sovereign nation that does not submit itself to another. Goryeo was indeed an empire. It did not submit itself to China, and its rulers carried the name "Hwangje" (up until Mongol rule). That's what defines an empire in East Asia. Similar to Japan, it didn't conquer other peoples and incorporate them into its society, they merely were just independent from outside nations. Yet we have no problem refering to the Japanese as an Empire because of contemporary history regarding the Japanese in WWII.

However, you must also realize that Goryeo DID have subjects. Northern tribes submitted tribute to the Goryeo rulers, as well as many Japanese shogun and the island nation of Tamna (current day Jejudo) that was incorporated into the Joseon dynasty later. So, infact Goryeo did have subjects. I think that the writer did a good job in explaining that it functioned as an empire, but that they should also state that it was not tributary to China or any other nations.


[edit] Goryeo's Original Status

It is clearly seen in pictures that Wang-geon was considered an emperor. He wore yellow/gold. When the Mongols vassalized Goryeo, the ruler was prohibitted from wearing gold as a symbol of Mongol sovereignty. The same happened during Joseon when it submitted itself to both Ming and Qing. Gold is a color reserved for emperors, kings must wear red or blue. Notice that in every picture you see a Joseon-ese ruler in, he wears either red or blue (up until the late 19th century where King Gojong proclaimed himself Emperor). This has to be taken into account as well.

Not even on days of coronation, or any other special ceremonies, were Joseon kings permitted to wear gold garments. This defines a significant difference between that of an Emperor and of a King. The fact that Wang-geon wore gold shows his status as the Emperor of Goryeo.

When Yi Seong-ye established Joseon, he wore blue.

This can also be seen on women's clothing. The Empress wore a garment with dragons embroidered on the sleeves. A queen would wear one with pheonixes as opposed to dragons to symbolize her status as a queen, and not as an empress. During the Goryeo Dynasty, the female counterpart of the male ruler wore dragons embroidered on her clothing, symbolizing her to be an Empress, and him to be an Emperor.


Traditional attire, especially of the court, is extremely important in reflecting the status of the people. Attire does not lie.

It all sounds very plausible. However, since Wikipedia policy prohibits original research, please provide a citation from a reputable historian. -- Visviva 15:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

When are people going to stop citing the outdated view that the "Goryeo" appellation begins with Goguryeo (高句麗) and the Goryeo Dynasty (高麗)? It is unambiguously clear from Chinese records as early as the Han Dynasty that there existed a distinct race of people called Gāolí (高麗) in the northeastern coastal regions. The Chinese could not have repeatedly referred to the people of various ancient states and empires in what is now Manchuria and North Korea as "an offshoot of Gāolí" or "another kind of Gāolí" (高麗別種) if the name "Gāolí" had only come into existence as recently as the founding of Goguryeo or the commencement of the Goryeo Dynasty's reign over the Korean Peninsula. I find it very likely that the ancient name of the Gaoli race is etymologically cognate with Modern Korean "Gori" (고리) as in "Goris-jeok" (고릿적, "the era of the Gori"), which is a sort of metonymic expression for "ancient times" or "the old days," and Old Japanese "Kure" (呉、くれ), which referred to some nation or state on the continent that often interacted with the ancient Japanese. Personally, I believe the Gaoli/Goryeo/Gori/Kure and hence "Korea" name is of prehistoric antiquity, in which case it probably originally referred to a certain tribe that may have inhabited the land around the Bohai Sea, Korea Bay, and perhaps some other parts of the Yellow Sea coast since Paleolithic or Mesolithic times. Ebizur 23:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

I Added the 1st source of history.

The official history of Koryo is printed by woodblock in 1580.　
--Lulusuke 10:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Emepror of Goryeo

I could not find any primary source that the ruler of Goryeo was called as emperor or 皇. Originally, 皇 is not Korean king's name. It is chinese stuff. I wonder Korean just mimic the chinese system. As far as I know, only Balhae adopted the system of chinese rulers name. The main article may be wrong... What the Goryeo had powerful military power does not means that the ruler was called as an emperor. It is just the designation title. Can anybody show the source ??--Drpepper000 10:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Emperor of Goryeo

The thing is, it's very hard to find a reliable source for the official names of the Goryeo rulers. However, they DID address their rulers as 陛下, which is styled for an emperor. They also used 宗 for posthumous names, the exact way the Chinese rulers (Prior to Ming) did, AND had era names. This shows they were at the same level as the Chinese rulers, making the rulers of Goryeo emperors. So although there's no exact evidence, we can use evidence to base such a claim. Please also realize that Shilla began the adoption of Chinese titles & Chinese styled government. This was carried onto Goryeo, as titles had to be documented and Koreans at the time wrote in Chinese characters. It is without doubt that both states, Balhae and Goryeo, had a Chinese-styled government. Also, no one mentioned military strength as being a defining aspect of an empire; empires are defined politically, not militarily.

Not ONLY that, but the name of the capital was Gaegyeong (開京) the word 京 is only used for imperial capitals (All the time in Korean & most of the time in Chinese); capitals of kingdoms are usually named differently usually using 城 or 陽 (Such as with previous dynasties). The fact that Goryeo had multiple capitals also serves to justify its status as an empire; Pyeongyang was known during Goryeo as Seogyeong (西京) and Seoul as Namgyeong (南京) (Note that there was also a Donggyeong, but no Bukgyeong, as Gaegyeong took the place of it). Once again, one may use certain aspects of the era to decipher the nation's status, and it was indeed an empire.

Unfortunately, without a reliable source such speculation is original research. -- Visviva 08:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
No secondary source says that Goryeo is empire. I think that the main article adopted the original research by Korean nationalists. Goryeo just mimicked the calling convention of China so that it looked like an empire. Goryeo do not differentiate the king and empire.
陛下 and 宗 wer also used in Joseon. But, Joseon is not empire. There was only one ruler, which is king. Again, this is only calling convention adopting the system of China. In order for Goryeo to be called Empire, the greastest rulers of empire used the posthumous names of 皇帝. But, no king used the name of 皇帝 in goryeo.
You said 京 is used for only empire. The capital city of Tang is 長安. 京 is not used for the capital city of Tang empire.
You can see the obvious difference between kingdom and empire if you compare the posthumous name of Korean Empire and goryeo --Hairwizard91 08:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the posthumerous name of Korea empire

Gojong of Korean empire --> 高宗統天隆運肇極敦倫正聖光義明功大德堯峻舜徽禹謨湯敬應命立紀至化神烈巍勳洪業啓基宣曆乾行坤定英毅弘休壽康文憲武章仁翼貞孝皇帝
Sunjong of Korean empire --> 純宗文溫武寧敦仁誠敬皇帝

This is Goryeo's posthumerous name.

Gwangjong of Goryeo --> 弘道宣烈平世大成大王
Jeongjong I of Goryeo --> 至德章敬正肅文明大王

You see the difference between empire and kingdom.--Hairwizard91 09:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but what's being argued is the functioning of Goryeo as an empire. That's what it says in the article. On another note, the rulers of Joseon were addressed as Cheonha (I can't find the characters for it). Adding to that, no one said that 京 was the only option for an imperial capital name; however the capital city of the Tang Dynasty had the word "長" which means head. The capital of Shilla and Joseon ended with the characters 城. Now do you see the difference? The same goes for many other Chinese capitals that used the words 都. And during the reign of the Yongle Emperor of Ming, the capital was at a city called 京師.

the word "長" means head? You can not be more wrong. Can you explain the meaning of '長城'? Not evidence and no reason shows the capitcal of kingdom can not use '京'. The names of capiticals of many China dynasty did not use '京'. You should not explain Chinese word in such an simple way. Even the same character may have different pronuciations and meanings. I have seen a article at '東亞日報' . It said Manchu people are descendant of Sinla. One evidence of him is that '爱新觉罗', the surname of royal family of Qing Dynasty. It said it means '爱'(love) '新罗'. So funny! Right? '爱新觉罗' is just the spelling of the pronunciation. You know, Manchu people have their own language. Just like '华盛顿' is the spelling of the pronunciation of Washington.

And the posthumous names are definately questionable, as Gwangjong definately had 皇帝 in his posthumous name. There's simply no debate in at least this one area. As for the Jeongjong, I'm not 100% sure. Also keep in mind that the methods of the different (Chinese) dynasties vary when it comes to enshrinement. For example, the presence of temple names during the Tang Dynasty up until the early Ming Dynasty identified a emperors/sovreign rulers. That's why Goryeo rulers were robbed of their temple names during the Yuan dynasty and Shilla rulers were enshrined as "王" (as the states were tributary). However, during the late Ming & Qing, this was done away with.

>長 means head in the respect of head city or head person (in charge). Not the head on your neck... Example: the Chinese word for Principal: 校長. Literally means "head of school." Now don't you feel silly?

And your arguement is extremely flimsy. I understand the second half of what you said, but I do not recognize its relevance to this topic. What you're talking about is the use of Chinese characters by a foreign people (the Manchu). What I'm referring to is the way the Chinese people used their own language, not how the Manchus used it or how foreign words are pronounced using Chinese characters. Your arguement is incoherent and irrelevant.

I'm also not stating that 京 is the only word associated with imperial capitals; you just don't seem to understand that, do you? I'm saying it is a name that CANNOT be given to the capital city of a non-imperial government. And you're pretty off if you think 長城 has anything to do with this. 長 can be read two ways: zhang and chang. Chang means long, zhang, however, does not. Wow.

Once again! Even the same character may have different pronuciations and meanings. "長" has two pronuciations- 'Zhang' and 'Chang'. 'Zhang' sometimes really means 'head'. However, the pronuciation of '長安' is 'Chang An'. You see the difference?

I gave example because I thought they made the similar mistake! They both know some Chinese, or a little Chinese character(most Korean know some Chinese characters). But, the problem is they thought they are expert so that they explain Chinese by their own manner, by imagination.

Uh, right... But '長安' has two possible meanings, just because it's read "chang" in current day Chinese doesn't mean it was read the same in Chinese of years past. And please learn to speak better English before you submit articles/discuss articles on the English section of the site. You may confuse the readers, as I've had a hard time reading most of what you've written.

Thank you for your advice. But if I do not practise my english how can I improve it. If you had a hard time to read my sentences, just ignore them. It's not your duty to read them. Blaming my skill of Enligsh can not give any support your viewpoint.My advice to you is to learn Chinese well and not to guess the meaning of Chinese word you do not exactly. Do not give evidence even you own are not very sure whether it is true or not. As your method, I would be able to say '한강' has the meaning of 'River of Han Chinese' and '한국' has the relation with a ancient kindom of China '韓'. How wrong they are! Shame on you. The meaning of '長安' may be long peacefule (city).

You totally missed the point of this discussion. We are discussing whether or not Goryeo was an empire. And I am saying that Goryeo was not empire.
Moreover, dont interpret the Korean history using the method for Chiese history interpretation. Did Silla used 王 because of a tributal state, uh? You must learn about the Korean history if you want to saying such like that. You must read Offspring of heaven to know the reason why Korean state do use 王. It is translation of Korean word Imgeum into Chinese character.--Hairwizard91 15:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I will cite some sentence for you
"Korean kingdoms had never used an emperor(Huángdì, 皇帝) as the title of rulers because they thought that the highest rulers was Heaven, and all rulers must be a representative of Heaven. This concept of the Posterity of Heaven is somewhat different from the Chinese concept of the Son of Heaven or a Chinese emperor. It is believed that the Chinese emperor governs the Chinese as the son of Heaven. But, the Koreans believe that they themselves are the descendants of Heaven, the Heavenly God governs them by himself, and a king of a nation is nothing but the supervisor as a representative of Heaven."

You yourself are without the knowledge of something very crucial. Yes, 王 is read (using the Korean system) as "Imgeum Wang" (임금 왕) (the Hun and Eum system), but both the characters 皇 and 帝 are read with "Imgeum" as their Korean equivalents. 皇 is read as "Imgeum Hwang" (임금 황), and 帝 is read as "Imgeum Je" (임금 제). So you see, they do not translate to anything more than "Imgeum" or "sovreign". In Korean, the Chinese characters were each assigned two things: a meaning (hun 훈 訓) followed by the Korean-ized sound of the Chinese pronunciation (eum 음 音). Neither of the 訓 possess the Korean word for God in them. Korea (the entire peninsula) adopted Chinese government and institutions during the Shilla era (earliest was Baekje, but I want to emphasis the unified peninsula). Sino-Centrism dictates that this is why Korean rulers used 王, not because of their own beliefs but because of Chinese influence. That is why the 4th ruler, Gwangjong, of Goryeo declared it to be an empire, and I quote, "independent from any other countries" and himself to be an emperor.

At the SAME time, let's take a look at what happened during 大韓帝國. Gojong elavated himself to the status of Emperor. It is very well known that he did this to envoke nationalism and because the Jeong Dynasty (정,情) was weakened in the late 19th century. So according to you, Gojong just decided he was the Son of Heaven, when he was just a representative in the past? No, not at all.

Why dont you read this article firstly Offspring of heaven. Korean do have different system of calling title of rulers. You still interpret them in chinese ways and manners.
  • 帝 - Korean dont use this character. So, there is no correct meaning of this. We only have Imgeum. So, I strongly encourage you to read Offspring of heaven.
  • //Neither of the 訓 possess the Korean word for God in them// --> You are so funny. Korean word of God is "Ha-neul-nim" 하늘님. It is also connected to the article of Offspring of heaven. It is now called as Haeunim하느님, which is usually used in Christian even though it is originally designate the god of Korea. You can examine this name in the literature of Korean Missionary history.
  • Later Silla era adopt the system because they use 王. Early Silla do no use the system of 王. You may know the calling system of silla such as Maripgan마립간, Nisageum니사금, Chachawong차차웅.
  • Baekje does not use 王. But, Samguk Sagi use the 王 because the author's ignorant. One possible calling name of ruler of Baekje is "Oeraha.어라하" This still need research.
  • Also, Kwangjong is not emperor. Posthumous name is "弘道宣烈平世大成大王"
  • the Jeong Dynasty (정,情) was weakened in the late 19th century. --> What is this?? Jeong dynasty???
  • Gojong called himself as emperor because there were many empires who attacked states. It has a historical background why Gojosong called himself as emperor. Calling emperor in Korea does not means the calling himself as the son of heaven. This is totally misunderstanding by the viewpoint of Chinese.
  • Additionally, Every Korean think themselves as the son of heaven. This is called as Posterity of Heaven or Cheonson (천손, 天孫). It is not understood in Korea that only emperor is the son of heaven. You must know this firstly.
  • You do interpret Korean history using the ways of Chinese history interpretation. It is a huge mistake. --Hairwizard91 17:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you get it through your head: that article is not reliable. It talks about Korean traditional FOLK MYTHS. NOT Korean political structure. You OBVIOUSLY did not read my response, or did not understand it at all.

  • Read it again about the usage of the Chinese characters in Korea. THEY ARE READ WITH A DUAL READING SYSTEM. THE 訓 IS THE KOREAN NATIVE WORD, WHERE AS THE 音 IS THE SOUND THAT MATCHES CHINESE. READ MY STATEMENTS ABOUT IT. I'M SAYING THAT THE 訓 OF BOTH OF THOSE CHARACTERS (皇帝) IS "IMGEUM" AND NOT "HANEUNIM". MEANING THAT THOSE CHARACTERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HEAVEN, AND TO THE KOREANS THE 訓 OF 皇帝 IS EXACTLY THE SAME TO THAT OF THE CHARACTER 王. It symbolizes POLITICS, not FOLK MYTH & RELIGION (which was Buddhist in the COURT, which is where it's important. The Imperial Family WAS BUDDHIST/CONFUCIAN, NOT shamanistic. They did not worship Hwanin or Hwanung. Those figures became folk tales.)

We (KOREANS, as I am Korean) have the character 帝. Here is PROOF that it exists in the Korean language: http://kr.dic.yahoo.com/search/hanja/search.html?prop=hanja&p=%F0%A8&x=32&y=2 Take note of the hangeul, it says "임금 제". Would the dictionary lie? No, it would not. Only you would.

The corresponding word of 皇帝 can be Eoraha어라하, Maribgan마립간, etc.. 王 is just Kan간, Han한, etc. Even though the ruler is expressed in 王, it is sure that they are note read as wang왕 in ancient time.--Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::::I'm not discussing the corresponding words. I'm talking about the corresponding readings for the Hanja. Once again, READ THAT WHICH I'VE WRITTEN. The words you listed (Eoraha어라하, Maribgan마립간, etc.. ) are pre-Chinese government adoption. This means they were used BEFORE Korea began using the title 王 and before Korea adopted Chinese-styled government institutions.

  • Later Shilla adopted the system BECAUSE THEY ADOPTED CHINESE CULTURE AND BECAME PART OF SINO-CENTRISM.
It is adopting the Chinese writing system because Idu, Hyangchal, etc had a difficulty to describe Korean language. Even though it is used as 王, there is no proof that it is pronounced as wang in ancient time. It is more reasonable to think that it is pronouced as Kan. Samguk Sagi is just translation of Korean language. Samguk Sagi is not representing the phonetic value of Korean calling syste. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Once again, you did not read anything I wrote, did you? The dual reading system and how Koreans use Chinese writing... Either you didnt read it, or you can't understand it.

Check the Goryeosa (Records of Goryeo) for the posthumous name. Korean wiki has currently error. Check Goryeosa고려사 for yourself. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The Jeong Dynasty = the Qing Dynasty. It's the way the character (WHICH IF YOU READ EVERYTHING I WROTE YOU WOULD KNOW) is read in Korean.
Exact pronouciation of Qing is Ch'ŏng as Korean. It is not Jeong. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

::::::: No, it is not. The romanization you listed is from NORTH KOREAN MCCUNE REISCHAUER ROMANIZATION. In SOUTH KOREA they use the Revised Romanization. It is Jeong. Go read that article on wikipedia. Haha! It's really funny that you just did that. Look what you wrote before: can be Eoraha어라하, Maribgan마립간. You do realize that both of those words are romanized using the Revised Romanization. You don't even know the difference, do you? We don't write Seoul (the South Korean capital) as Sŏul. According to you saying that Jeong is incorrect and Ch'ŏng is the right way, then that would mean that Seoul is also incorrect and Sŏul is the right way. The McCune Reischauer is an out-dated system that only North Korea uses in its romanization. You need to also do more linguistics research.

  • The words are SYNONYMOUS. That means that THEY HAVE THE SAME MEANING. The title change was not because "there were many empires who attacked states" (I can barely understand this phrase), it was meant to PUT GOJONG ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE CHINESE EMPEROR AND GIVE HIM THE SAME STATUS AND JOSEON A FULLY INDEPENDENT STATUS AS IT WAS A QING TRIBUTARY & VASSAL-STATE.
Yes. Gojong just used the 皇帝 because of politics. Why Joseon is vassal state. It is so absurd. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Joseon was a Qing vassal-state. It was subjugated by the Manchus and the King kowtowed to the Jeong/Qing Emperor annually. Read about it on wikipedia if need be. Not only this, but according to you the words 皇帝 are only used for the Cheonson (천손, 天孫). So Gojong can't use this even if it's just for politics, because like you said, Koreans do not believe in the Cheonson (천손, 天孫). You can't even keep a straight arguement.

  • You DO interpret it that way because the institutions CHANGED FROM NATIVE KOREAN TO SINO-KOREAN. KOREA ADOPTED CHINESE GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS, AND THAT IS WHY THESE TITLES ARE SIGNIFICANT. The King of Joseon was a VASSAL OF THE QING DYNASTY BECAUSE IN CONFUCIAN ORDER THE EMPEROR IS ABOVE THE KING, AND BECAUSE KOREA WAS EXTREMELY CONFUCIAN AND CONSIDERED A CONFUCIAN BASED STATE, IT HOLDS TRUE. Korea was heavily influenced by China ESPECIALLY POLITICALLY.
Adopting the system means vassal??? It is so absurd. It is just using the words... It is so absurd to say that that adoping the calling convention become the vassal state. If so, Chinese are currently cultural vassal state of Korea Because China has currently eager to Korean drama. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::::You obviously do not understand anything I've said. It goes like this... Korean rulers were Kings. Korea adopted Confucian Doctrines from China which put China as the center of the world, and the Chinese Emperor the highest of all rulers. In Confucianism Doctrines, all other rulers in the world are subject to the Chinese Emperor. Korea acknowledged this and paid tribute except during the Goryeo era. That's how Confucianism works politically. You do not understand the arguement. It's not adopting culture that defines the vassal status. It is adopting the political institutions. How many times do I have to say this before you understand? The adoption of music and dance and such things has no relevance to the government, so your Korean Drama arguement is deemed useless, not justified and just plain wrong.

  • Explain the prohibition of the Korean King of Joseon to wear gold. Also explain why dragons were not permitted to be present in the palaces of the Joseon Kings. BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPERIAL SYMBOLS. The title is a POLITICAL BOUNDRY, NOT A RELIGIOUS ONE. It may have STARTED religiously, but by the Taebong & Goryeo era it was definately political.
Haha. Dont think Korean culture like the Chinese culture. Why Korean ruler use the symbol of dragon? It is so absurd. It is so absurd that Joseon could not use dragon because Joseon is not empire. Who decide to use dragon if it is emperor. Only China use the dragon if the nation is emperor. Do Russia use Dragon when they are empire?? Haha Your statement is also absurd. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::::You are clearly misinformed about a lot of information. Korea adopted Chinese government and political institutions, Russia did not, so Russia has nothing to do with this. In Chinese government structure, the displaying of dragons in royal palaces is prohibitted as dragons are Imperial Symbols. This is a simple concept, I don't believe you are even challenging it. You are most definately wrong.

  • Do not interpret KOREAN history when you know only what you read on wikipedia.
  • Read the BOOK "A New History of KOREA" by Ki-Baik Lee and read page 105. There's a CONCRETE SOURCE IN PRINT (meaning it's from a BOOK not the unreliable internet).
What did he say. He is currently criticized as Japanese colonial historian. Read the "New Korean History" By Yoon Nae Hyun. --Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::: No, actually he is not being criticized as anything. He is a Korean nationalist if anything.

  • As a matter of fact, you should read the ENTIRE BOOK.
  • There's one extremely important aspect of everything in Korea: NEO-CONFUCIANISM. If you do not understand the politics of this, you cannot understand Goryeo or Joseon at all.
Maybe YOU should read more about Chinese history to understand the relationship between the Chinese emperor and other monarchs of neighboring states. It is important to understand the histories of BOTH CHINA (to some extent) AND KOREA to understand the history of Korea.
Dont think that the emperor system can be applied to the kingdom of Korea. You have a very huge mistakes. Do not apply the Chinese culture and political systems to Korean political system According to your statement, All nation or state that used "king" as a ruler must have been the vassal states of China. How much it is absurd statement. haha.--Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Again. Do not apply the Chinese history interpretation to Korean history. You have a big mistake--Hairwizard91 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
You are severely without a huge understanding of Korea and its history. I explained this higher up when I talked about Sino-Centrism.


Will the editor writing all this down please sign their name? use 4 tildes. This is a courtesy to other editors and its pretty rude to discuss without even showing who you are. Good friend100 20:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not registered.

  • Based on the Above Statement written by Anonymous user, China is cultural vassal state of Korea, and all the states that used the title of king for rulers has been the vassal of China. It is nonsense and absurd. --Hairwizard91 17:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Will someone else with a good understanding of Korea and its history please come here and add to this discussion, as this person has no idea what he is talking about. This guy is pulling crap from all over the place and is clearly misinformed about Sino-Korean institutions. I'm a Korean, I'm not trying to distort history; I'm trying to tell the true story. This guy didn't even know the South Korean romanization system.


Are you Korean. Haha. I am so sure that you are not Korean. Because
1) Korean dont pronouce the Qing dynasty as Jeong(정,情) dynasty. Every Korean speak Ch'ǒng(This is the way of North Korean) or Cheong(This is the way of South Korean) dynasty(청, maybe 淸). You must not be a Korean because you do not know the correct Korean pronounciation of the last Chinese dynasty. Haha. Because you are not Korean, I just used the McCune-Reischauer system, which is thought to be more comprehensive romanization than the current Revised Romanization.
2) And If you were really Korean, You must have believed the concept about "Offspring of Heaven"(천손, 天孫). Every Korean have a mind about the "offspring of Heaven" But you do not have. You only think that Chinese emperor is the son of heaven. This thought is only from chinese. But, Korean think that they are all offspring of heaven. Jeong(정,情) is only for 초코파이.
3) You say Korean kingdom is the vassal state of China. NO Korean thinks that the Korean kingdom was the vassal state of China. Haha. Only Chinese think that Korean ancient kingdoms such as Goguryeo and Balhae were the vassal state of China because of "North East Chinese project". Eventually, China want the history of Goguryeo to make as the Chinese history. But, China shall not make it. --Hairwizard91 04:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you think that I am distorting the Korean history. I am just saying that Korean ancient kingdoms did not utilized the title of emperor. Most of Korean who has infant knowledge about history insisted that Goryeo was an empire and the ruler of Goryeo was an emperor. But, Korean king was not emperor, and they dont have to be an emperor. Do you know the etymology of Imgeum(임금, which means king or rulers)? If you know the original meaning of Imgeum, you cannnot say such like that. In addition, Korean ancient kingdoms are not vassal of Chinese kingdom against the "North East china project", which is very nonsense. If you are really Korean, do not think that Korean kingdoms were the vassal of china, and then cure the disease of emperor.
The title of Korean rulers was neither 王 nor 皇. The title of Korean rulers is Han(韓, 汗, 瀚 whatever they are expressed as Chinese script because it is only borrowing the character), or Gan or Kan (干). In the case of Baekje and Goguryeo, they have somewhat variation such as Ha, Hae and Gae. These are normal title of rulers. If there was supreme ruler or highest rulers, the noun qualifier is added such as Marib-gan(마립간) or Eora-ha(어라하). Marib mean the highest in ancient time. You may know the Maru(used in 고갯마루). Eora means the largest. The name of current Han river was Ari river. Eora has the same origin of the word with Ari. --Hairwizard91 04:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Please respond to the below statements as a whole and not by indenting and adding into my original post. Please post your response beneath it.

  • We're discussing the functioning of Goryeo as an empire politically. Empire, in East Asia, means fully independent and sovreign from China, which Joseon was definately not, however, Goryeo was. Even if the monarch did not use the Chinese term for "Emperor," Goryeo was still a sovreign state (until Mongol occupation & subjugation) as it did not submit itself or submit tribute to China. The rulers were not limitted by the Chinese, like Joseon was in areas such as attire of the ruling family and prohibition of certain terms used in the Court. The English does not correlate. I am Korean, however I'm using an unbias point of view. I do believe, however, that the Goryeo rulers put themselves on the same level as the Chinese monarchs, and that the reason why the term "皇帝" was not used to denote them was a cultural barrier of the time, even though Gojong's move during the Korean Empire disproves that, the time period must also be taken into account. The Goryeo and Joseon eras were extremely different both culturally and politically. It is in my opinion that the Goryeo era is superior to the Joseon era both politically and culturally, but this has no relevance to this topic and is just something I wanted to state.
  • I still stand by my original arguement, that by this time the significance of Hwanin and Hwanung had lost its importance in the Royal Court, and the Royal Family was Buddhist and Neo-Confucianist, and that Sino-Centrism dictated the titles of the rulers, not Korean traditional belief. However, I'd like a compromise.
  • It should be mentioned in the article somewhere about the term "Emperor" not being equivolent to the term "皇帝" and the term "King" not be equivolent to the term "王". "王" should be explained as the generic title for the ruler of a country, and "皇帝" the title of the Chinese ruler specifically. Then just explain that for lack of a better term, the word "King" will still be used to denote the Goryeo monarch. At the same time, it should be made clearer that Goryeo functioned internally, using Court terminology and attire, in the same way China did. The monarchs wore gold, and the terminology in the Palace of Goryeo was equivolent to the terminology in the Imperial Song Palace. (This is not original research it is mentioned in "A New History of Korea"). It should also be stated that although a trade relationship existed, Goryeo was not tributary/subject to the Song Dynasty (like Joseon was to the Ming and Qing Dynasties). This is my principle arguement. Any person, whether he/she is Korean or not, must admit the tributary/vassal-state status of the Joseon Dynasty (this can be elaborated on/explained in an area outside of this topic). Pride and bias should have no part in history. We are not Japanese.
  • The term "Supreme King" should also be changed. According to the wikipedia article you're using for reference, "Supreme King" would refer to "太王" used by Goguryeo. Goryeo used the words "大王" which would not translate that way. Instead, it would be King ______ the Great. Example: Taejo Daewang would be King Taejo the Great, not Great King Taejo. The 大 is often added to posthumous names to raise the status of the individual after death.

Response to your #3:

  • Please understand what a vassal-state is. A vassal-state/tributary-state is a country that is tributary to another meaning it pays annual sums of wealth (silks, porcelain, animals or whatever it may be) to another country. The Chinese do not consider Goguryeo and Barhae vassal-states because of their location (Barhae was a tributary state, but Goguryeo was not). Vassal-states/tributary-states are called that because of their political relationships. It has nothing to do with the "Northeast Chinese Project." You're confusing two different things. What China is saying now is simply that Goguryeo (until the capital was moved to the area around present day Pyeongyang) is part of Chinese history just because Goguryeo territory (speicifically the old capital Kungnaeseong) is now part of modern-day China. The same goes for Barhae. They're not wrong; they're not arguing Goguryeo and Barhae were Chinese states, but just part of the history of China. Many people interpret this the wrong way, it just means that the countries, even though they were Korean, had an impact on Chinese culture and history as a whole. It's not an entirely negative thing.

--Justinpak


[edit] Response

I agree with your point except something.

  • Fully indepedent kingdoms is not called empire. Independent state uses the term of State. In addition, the empire must have several independent states, and conquer several states to make their own control. So, the concept of king and empire should be differentiated because empire has controlled at the top of the states, and the ruler of each state is called king. In this context, Goryeo is not empire.
  • And we must know why chinese uses the term of emperor. Chinese used two different terms for rulers 皇帝 and 王. So, they translate 皇帝 into an emperor, and 王 into a king. But, 皇帝 was not actually the topest rulers among the rulers of each states. It is very different concept of the current empire. They just translate into emperor and king. So, Chinese emperor has no relation with the current concept of empire. Instead, Korean kingdoms used 大王 and 太王 for the king who has much achievement. 大王 and 太王 can also be translated into emperor, but these two terms are not generally translated into an emperor. These can be supreme king or great king whatever. Moreover, it is much possibility that 太王 was not pronounced as Taewang in ancient time. the pronounication of Taewang had been widely used after Goryeo dyansty. So, it is possible to be pronouced as Eora(太)-ha(王), which is read using meaning of the character訓. So, 王 has nothing do to with the calling system of China.
  • About North East Proejct. Yes, China insisted Goguryeo was their history because of the territory. But, this is not the all logic of the project. They also used to concept of 皇帝 and 王. As you know, 皇帝 controls 王 in Chinese history. So, they also apply the same theory to Korean history such thath Korean kingdoms were subjuated to Chinese kingdom because they used only the title of 王'. They also says about the tributal relationship. China usually says that Goguryeo and Balhae were the local government of China. You only know one theory of north east project. So, I was trying to explain that Korean kingdoms dont have to use the 皇帝 because 王 of Korean has the same power and level with 皇帝 of Chinese history. Again, Balhae and Goguryeo are neither Chinese history nor Chinese state because the history of Balhae and Goguryeo cannot be the Chinese history even though the territory of Gogurye and Balhae are currently the territory of China. China and US consider their history if the ancient states was located at the current their own territory. However, Korea consider their history if the people of ancient states are composed by Korean. This is cause of the conflict between China and Korea. You may not know this. I guess you have learned history in US not in Korea.--Hairwizard91 09:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, King Taejo the Great. What is it? Taejo Daewang are all posthumous name. It is not true that only Dae is posthumous name. You missed this fact. So, Taejo Great King is correct translation. --Hairwizard91 09:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I still protest this as an inaccurate analysis. The significance of the Offspring of Heaven holds no ground here. You're comparing the stone-age Go-Joseon/Dangun era beliefs with that of the middle-age Goryeo era. The Goryeo Era has nothing to do with this concept (which can be regarded as Korean Shamanism). Goryeo was a Buddhist state with Confucian elements. Therefore your rational behind this is insignificant.

And I'd appreciate it if you did not go back and edit previous parts of the discussion to sneak in insults. The accuracey of this article should be disputed and noted at the top of the page of the article. Justinpak

[edit] Who is this

Will the editor writing all this stuff down in their argument identify themselves? It would be much better if we know who is fighting on each side.

I don't understand, what is the exact point of the discussion? Are you saying that Korea was a state under China during Goryeo because Goryeo only had "kings" not "emperors"? They are both basically the same thing. They represent the ruler of that country. I don't see any evidence how Goryeo was a state and made tributes to China. As I see it, this is simply a way to undermine Goryeo's position and make it look like it really was actually "Chinese and therefore Korea is Chinese".

And there doesn't seem to be an article of the "Northeast China" project in Wikipedia. If it is important there should be. It is interesting how China calls Manchuria "Northeast China". Good friend100 18:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Dont sweat. Its probably some guy from China who became tired of ridiculing korean arguments at the Goguryeo article so came to Goryeo. These days Chinese nationalists have nothing to do except ridiculing the minorities around them. I applaude you, citizens of the PRC for adopting imperialistic measures which you so despise.

[edit] request a move

I'm requesting a move back to Goryeo. Nobody calls this "kingdom of goryeo". Quite ridiculous. Good friend100 15:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I support your request. Stupid name. If it's confusing the readers because there were two states with the same name than maybe a disambiguation page is need. Kuebie 18:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

To my thinking suit Goryeo Dynasty´s changed name. why only one Korean Dynasty is Joseon? Korea history 11:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I moved it. I did it because I thought Joseon and Goryeo should have a similar name.Kfc1864 talk my edits 12:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Joseon should be "Joseon" or "Joseon Dynasty" because thats its name for many books, internet articles, etc. Nobody uses "Kingdom of Goryeo". "Goryeo" or "Goryeo Dynasty" is sufficient. Good friend100 16:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

OK for Goryeo Dynasty.Kfc1864 talk my edits 13:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought the name was very strange as well. It should be simply Goryeo, Joseon. These are more like Korea's names during different time periods, not really separate kingdoms. Dynasty is more of a Chinese style, I think. I also think the template at the upper right is a little strange too. The articles in the History of Korea template should have logically consistent names and layouts. Esroh 19:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


---> No, they actually ARE different kingdoms. They may be made up of the same ethnic group, the Koreans, but they are different countries with different governments and different ruling families and social structures. Dynasty is not the right word because the term refers to a ruling family. For example, Joseon was ruled by the Yi Dynasty, Goryeo was ruled by the Wang Dynasty and technically the "Choe Dynasty" (it's like the Tudor Dynasty in England). This is a difference that often gets forgotten. Goryeo is the name of the country. And "Dynasty" is not Chinese styled... Are the Tudors from China?