Talk:Golden Urn

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Delete?

I see no reason for this article. It provides unverified, uncited information. If the 10, 11, and 12th dalai lamas were selected using this method, why doesn't it state this on their articles?

I call bullshit. Dragonnas (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

One reason to have this article is that at least six other Wikipedia articles refer to the Golden Urn, but none of those articles gives a comprehensive description of it. The article History of Tibet says, "In this lottery the names of the competing candidates were written on folded slips of paper which were placed in a golden urn.[80] The tenth, eleventh and twelfth Dalai Lamas were selected by the golden urn method.[81]" It gives two references, the footnotes being numbered 80 and 81. The article for Palden Tenpai Nyima says, "... finally Palden Tenpai Nyima intervened and used the Golden Urn ...", and a reference is given for that sentence (footnote 6); a similar statement occurs in the article for Tsultrim Gyatso. The articles for Qoigyijabu and Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, and for Tibetan sovereignty debate also refer to the Golden Urn. A Time Magazine article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,983834,00.html) is titled " TEMPEST IN A GOLDEN URN". The Golden Urn is discussed on the website for the Tibetan Parliamentary and Policy Research Centre (http://www.tpprc.org/abt_latehistory.php). Mesopelagicity (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Another reference: "As the Chinese have alleged, if the system of drawing lots from the golden urn bestows legitimacy on ether the Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama, then it must be pointed out that only in the recognition of the three of the fourteen Dalai Lamas and two of the ten Panchen Lamas has this system been used." (Tempa Tsering evidently representing the Government of Tibet in Exile -- http://www.tibet.com/pl/nov29c.html) The "three" Dalai Lamas are presumably the 10th, 11th, and 12th. Does anybody know who the two Panchen Lamas were (maybe not including Qoigyijabu)?

A free online article by Derek F. Maher (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1749-8171.2007.00018.x) includes these statements about the 10th, 11th, and 12th Dalai Lamas: (10th:) "It appears that the ambans were able to force the Tibetans to employ the golden urn in the selection of the tenth Dalai Lama Tshul khrims rgya mtsho (1816–1837), although Tsepön Shakabpa disputes this." (11th:) "The eleventh Dalai Lama mKhas grub rgya mtsho (1838–1855) was confirmed through the use of the Golden Urn, but it is not evident in the biographies if any other candidates were in competition." (12th:) "The public became convinced that a child from ’Ol dga’ was the true incarnation of the Dalai Lama, and so they were relieved when the golden urn ceremony resulted in his name being drawn. The twelfth Dalai Lama ’Phrin las rgya mtsho (1856–1875) briefly assumed political authority after the regent died in 1872..." Mesopelagicity (talk) 02:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Another reference: "The inability of the Tibetans to expel the Nepalese forces without an army from China, coupled with charges of poor leadership and organization in the Tibetan government, prompted yet another Qing reorganization of the Tibetan government, this time through a written plan called the "Twenty-Nine Regulations for Better Government in Tibet." This reform package included the selection of top incarnations (hutuktus ) like the Dalai and Panchen Lamas through a lottery conducted in a golden urn, the aim being to prevent the selection of incarnations being manipulated to fall in politically powerful lay families." Goldstein, Melvyn C. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama. Berkeley: University of California Press, c1997. http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft2199n7f4/ Mesopelagicity (talk) 18:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)