Talk:Golden Horde

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This article seems to harp a tad too much on the Horde's policies toward Ruthenia, especially considering that the article itself claims that Ruthenia was not a major consideration for the Golden Horde. I'd rewrite myself by I don't really know much about the subject. Isomorphic 01:57, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Unhelpful link

I propose that the link for steppe color-direction system be removed, since it does not appear to be relevent, or that clarifying text be added if the relevence is simply not obvious to non-specialists.

[edit] Ruthenia is a latin form of a word Rus' or Russia (the country of Russian). IMO there is no sense to use it.

Rus' is medieval Russian state. All Russians named own country "Rus" until 17 centuries. Muscovy was named by Russians as Rus' too. Russia is the name of Russian State from the 18th century only. Modern Russian language and Russian culture is successors of the language and culture of medieval Rus'. The Tsar dynasty of Russia began in medieval Rus' (Rurik of Novgorod). The medieval epos of Rus' (bylinas of the Kiev cycle) was kept in northern territories of Russia. The most part of territory of medieval Rus' is territory of modern Russia. Novgorod, Vladimir, Ryazan, Suzdal, Tver were the big cities of medieval Rus' and cities of modern Russia also.Ben-Velvel 22:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Addition by anon

Needs further processing into the text:

[edit] External attacks against neighbor countries

[edit] Batu Khan in Europe

I believe that The Golden Horde invaded Europe, reaching Westward as far as Liegnitz, where they won Battle_of_Legnica, and being in some trouble at the Battle_of_Neustadt when the army turned back due to a death in Mongolia. If this is right, why is it not mentioned? Carrionluggage 07:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Read carefully. --Ghirla | talk 10:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - sorry I missed seeing that Neustadt was probably covered by Vienna. Carrionluggage 17:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1) Tatar Invasions into Russia during Yoke; 2) A role of the Genoa merchants

Ghirlandajo,

1) The rule of Golden Horde was not the West-European system seigneurs - vassals. It included regular invasions, first of all with a target of a pillage. It is difficult to tell, whether it has been authorized by the Supreme khan, or Tatar warlords operated independently.

Only during second half of 13th century the Golden Horde carried out 14 ruinous and punitive expeditions to Russia, especially destructive in 1252 (campaign of Nevruy) and 1293 (campaign of Dyuden). Many cities (Suzdal, Rostov, Vladimir, Tver, Vladimir, Pereslavl, Ryazan, Murom) have been ruined many times.

Attacks proceeded in 14th century (excepting the period of rule of grand duke Ivan Kalita) and in 15 century.

These data can be found in the Full Collection of Russian Annals ("Полное собрание русских летописей (ПСРЛ), М.,1962 или М.,2001, ISBN 5-94457-011-3).

2)

The Genoeses merchants (Kafa, Azak, Soldaia, Tana) resold slaves and other goods seized by Tatars in Russia.

(http://www.lib.ru/HISTORY/ANDREEW_A_R/krym_history.txt)


I ask to include this information.


Ben-Velvel 09:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Location of White Horde/Blue Horde Lands

The map on this page indicates that the White Horde was located westerly of the Blue Horde. However, the map on this page (third map down from the top) indicates otherwise. More here. It is possible, I suppose, that the later White Horde of Tokhtamysh was located on different lands than the early White Horde of Orda. -- Additional references are needed to clarify. -- Takwish 15:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The five colors

The five color-direction system (black — north, blue — east, red — south, white — west, yellow — center) is not only the "steppe color-direction system" - it is extremely old color-direction system of Hinduism and Taoism also. Gugugu 09:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be a contradiction between the the five colors as listed above (blue - east, white west) and the first sentence of Mongol Origins (Blue Horde - West, White Horde - East). Maybe there is a logical explanation for this to those with more knowledge on the subject, but to the lay reader it's confusing.

[edit] Eastern (Blue) and Western (White) Hordes

The terminology in the Turkish and English sources is the same. The only difference is some Turkish sources uses "Gök"/"Kök" (eastern) not blue ("mavi" in Turkish) as in English sources. White (western) is the same "Ak" (white). In addition, I checked Encyclopedia Americana article which is written by Edward L. Keenan from Harvard University. There Blue is used for Eastern and White for Western Hordes. However, there was a difference between Russian chronicles and islamic souces (Arabian and Egyptian) (V.G. Tiesenhausen's work in 1884). This difference is explained in B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski's state-of-art book "The Golden Horde and its Downfall". The major work were done by Russian scientists (A.Romaskevic and S.L. Volin 1941, B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski 1950, G.Vernadsky 1953). On the other hand, the terminology used in wiki-article is not correct. The wiki-article terminology does not reflect the common usage. I'll do the changes. There is no difference. I'll also correct the related information for the Blue Horde (eastern) and White Horde (western) articles, too. Actually, maybe it's better to rename these articles as Eastern and Western Hordes, which totally removes the terminology disambiguity (actually there is no such difference between Turkish, Russian and English sources). Regards. E104421 15:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White Horde and Blue Horde Locations

In western terminology, the White Horde (Orda's ulus) is the eastern, the Blue Horde (Batu's ulus) is the western and the Sibir Horde (Shayban's ulus) is the northern. The Persian colour scheme is opposite to this hence the confusion.

Also, why is Berke mentioned as consolidating the blue and white hordes. I can find no sources supporting this and no mentions of any activities of his east of the Volga. I thought they were united when Toqtamish took power in the 1380's. Surely the white (Eastern) horde was a seperate entity until this time?

[edit] Turkic, Turco-Mongol, Mongol?

It looks like that we continually have problems with the ethnic roots of ancient states. Golden Horde is one of the controversial states. Now, it is written Turkic, but it wouldn't be my best choice at all. I would prefer Turco-Mongol, because at first, the Golden Horde was ruled by the Mongolians and the majority of the population was Turkish. (It is possible to say that almost all of the people in the state was Turkic). We all agreed at it was turkicized later, but it also carried Turkic elements in the beginning. We can discuss it here with references. But please lets not turn the article into a mass of references. Tajik, what I have done was just eliminating extra references. I can also find as many websites and book as I want to show that it is Turco-Mongol. Lets also decide on one (at most two) references at the end. Also, please try to stick to websites with edu extension (or gov if it is possible to find on this topic). And I have no access to Irannica so please avoid using it. Thanks. Caglarkoca 23:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Turkish????

I have objection to usage of Turkish name for the Horde at the beginning of the article. Kipchas the main population of the Horde called them Altın Orda, orsomething else,. But Turkishis a language of Oghuz group, we need to use a language of Kypchak group there, such as Kazakh or Nogai, that stay the closest to Kypchak language. The Tatar language and the Crimean Tatar language are less close than the first two. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 14:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with this one. The modern Turkish language belongs to the Oghuz branch and has absolutely nothing to do with the Golden Horde. It is as irrelevant to this article as is the German name for the Kushans in the respective article or the Persian name of the Scythians in that article. I guess it's again an attempt by Pan-Turkists to create an image of Turkic unity and to claim Mongol and Russian history for the Turkish Republic.
There is no relation  between Germans and Kushans. But Kypchaks are another branch of Turks like Germans and Austrians. Your comparison is very ridiculous  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.159.191 (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Golden Horde User:Untifler
Golden Horde User:Untifler

I'm not sure, but Siberia was already incorporated ...

As for the eastern border, in Idel-Ural region it was some to the west, at the Sura River. It's traditional conception (I'm not sure that was any differencies between Russian and Bulgar principalities for Sarai)--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 14:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The only source I have is a tatar Encyclopaedia (once I I had uploaded there a map, but it was succesfully deleted). My version I'll place there: en:Image:Golden Horde 1389 Untifler.svg.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 14:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for that information. I have moved the border to the Sura River, per your suggestion. I appreciate the input. MapMaster 19:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Horde/White Horde Relations

Ignoring the colour confusion, I'm just going to refer to Batu's Horde as Blue and Orda's as White. In the article it says: 'Batu then succeeded in establishing control over Orda's territorial endowment and subjugated the northern littoral of the Black Sea, incorporating the indigenous Turkic peoples into his army'.

Things along those lines seem to be popping up quite regularly on wikipedia and the internet in general, however, has anyone actually got any sound historical references or evidence of this ever happening. I ask because this site refers to Orda and many of his descendents as being 'Khan of the White Horde'. It also shows Batu and his descendents as being 'Khan of the Blue Horde'. Can anyone explain the discrepancies?

Also, out of interest, it mentions Shiban as being 'Khan North of the Caspian Sea' (My spanish is not perfect so if I've translated this wrong then say), Teval being 'Khan of the Siberia', and Toga Timur being 'Khan of the Bulgaria'. Can anyone explain?

[edit] Population of the Golden Horde

Why does the article say that the majority of the population was Turkic, neglecting the Russians? According to the 1389 map, the Principality of Moscow made up a significant part of the Horde's territory. Other Russian lands belonged to the Horde earlier in its history, but had been lost to Lithuania by 1389. Furthermore, I can't imagine that the Russian lands had lower population density than the non-Russian lands. --Smack (talk) 05:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)