Talk:Golden Dawn tradition/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Merging?

I haven't had a chance to review both articles yet, but I suspect merging would be a good idea. The The Golden Dawn tradition maxe more sense as a section of the main article. Perhaps something to the effect of "Since the dissolution of the original order in <insert controversial date here>, several offshoots and new organizations following its traditions blah blah blah..." and then go on to talk about them basicaly adding the material from this article.

If no one objects in a week, I will transfer GDt to the other article. --Perfecto 22:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to me. But someone else claims that Wikipedia has a 30kb size limit for articles, and the page for the original order has already exceeded that limit. Dan 18:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Revisions

March 1, 2006

There exdits no historical evidence whatsoever to top support the theory of Kuntz et al that the Cypher Manuscripts were developed by the "Society of Eight." All that is certain is that they were obtained by the GD founders by MacKenzie. Indeed, it is equally as likely that the manuscripts were obtained by MacKenzie from Continental Rosicrucian sources, albeit not from Anna Sprengel. The Society of Eight was not the developmental source of the CM, but rather an organization created based on the CM, as the first phase of what was later to become the Golden Dawn. Kuntz, Gilbert, et al are arguing that the egg is lays the the chicken.

Is Wikipedia aware of this "fake" Wikipedia page at http://www.goldendawnpedia.com/ created by Robert Zink's EOGD ("The Hermetic Order of the Morning Star d/b/a The Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn")?

Verifiability

Frater O.O.: Please familiarize yourself with the Wikipedia policies on Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources."

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

As it stands in the academic community today, Kuntz, Howe and Gilbert are relaiable, published, peer-reviewed authorities with good standing. "Equally likely" is not a verifiable by reference to any PUBLISHED sources, but only the privately held opinions of your group's leaders. You may be utterly convinced of the "truth" of what you're saying, but if you can't back it up with REALIABLE, PUBLISHED sources, it is not acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia. If your "sources" would submit their research to general publication, with verification and peer-review by independent experts in the field, that would be different.

Max

Frater HH has again made significant alterations to th artcile that show a clearly biased POV in favor of one particular Golden Dawn group, in this case the "Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn". Similar "revision duels" were previously carried on by another faction in support of the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn/Rosicrucion A+O" group of David Griffin.

In my revision I tried very hard to state the facts only concerning each group described, not turn it into a soapbox for what amounts to religious beliefs, as Frater HH appears to be doing. Thge proper way to handle such additiosn to Wikipedia is to create a specific article for the group itself, and expound it's doctrines there -- but not put them a general interest encyclopedia article and try to pass them off as an unbiased POV.

As before, Frater HH is welcome to contact me to come to an agreement over the revision of this article that refrains from promoting any particular group's biased POV.

Joseph Max 08:24 13 June 2008

Revision Explanation

Here are the revisions that I made, and the reasons why I made them:

1. Changed '"Golden Dawn"' to 'Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn'. Reason: This was the original name of the group; if we are going to be factually based, we might as well use the formal title of the group.

2. Added 'Christian Mysticism', 'Kabbalah' and 'Hermeticism' to the Links. Reason: These are also parts of Western thought that were influenced by the Golden Dawn.

3. Removed the quotes in the sixth paragraph. Reason: I didn't like them. They make the impression that the names 'Inner Order' or 'Outer Order' are quaint, but ultimately ridiculous terms. Since we are trying to embrace a neutral point of view, the names should be used for what they are.

4. Changed 'magic techniques' in the sixth paragraph to 'magical techniques'. Reason: Proper grammar.

5. In paragraph seven, changed the first sentence. Changed from 'The original Golden Dawn orders dissolved into schisms, notably the expulsion in 1900 of Mathers from the Order he helped to create by the nearly unanimous vote of the members of the Second Order.' to 'The original Golden Dawn orders dissolved into schisms, notably the separation of a large group of Second Order members from the leader of the Second Order, Macgregor Mathers.' Reason: The original sentence was supporting the point of view that somehow, members of the Second Order could expel the leader of their Order. However, there was no bylaw that said that members of the Second Order could ever expel a member if they saw fit. Thus, since Mathers was following the rules of the group in acting as leader and these other members were not following those rules, the schisming members were separating themselves from the Order, not the other way around.

6. Paragraph seven, added the word 'the'. Reason: grammar.

7. In paragraph seven, changed the third sentence. Changed from 'Notable offshoots include the Alpha et Omega under Mathers, the Stella Matutina under Dr Robert Felkin and John William Brodie-Innes, and the Ancient and Rectified Rite under Arthur Edward Waite.' to 'Notable offshoots include the Stella Matutina under Dr Robert Felkin and John William Brodie-Innes, and the Ancient and Rectified Rite under Arthur Edward Waite.' Reason: Same as in #5. There was no mechanism for expelling the leader of the Order, and there was a mechanism for expelling other members beside the Chief; thus, it is incorrect that Mathers could ever be removed from the Golden Dawn.

8. In paragraph eight, changed the second sentence. Changed from 'He was sued by Mathers for copyright violation in 1910, but Mathers lost the case.' to 'He was sued by Mathers for copyright violation in 1910, but Mathers lost the case, although Crowley was Mathers' student.' Reason: The previous sentence seemed to indicate that Crowley's act was somehow acceptable because the court upheld his action, and it seemed important to stress that, although the court upheld Crowley's action, the material still came from Mathers. This has nothing to do with points of view, and everything to do with presenting a complete picture.

9. Removed 'The largest organization' from the first sentence of paragraph 13. Reason: Rosters of Orders are not publicly accessible, and thus, there is no way to prove which Order is the largest.

10. Paragraph 15: Changed the first sentence regarding the origin of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn. Reason: As far as I understand, this story regarding the origins of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn was a rumor created on Usenet groups, and is not an established fact.

11. Paragraph 15: Added a sentence clarifying the legitimacy of astral initiation at the end of the paragraph. Reason: As it was, the paragraph made the implication that astral initiations were illegitimate, but it is likely that Mathers astrally initiated candidates himself.

12. Removed the 'also known as Hermetic Order of the Morning Star, International' from the links for the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn. Reason: They use the name 'Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn', not 'Hermetic Order of the Morning Star, International'.

Joseph Max, you are invited to correspond with me privately regarding these revisions.

Frater HH 08:24 13 June 2008

Z Documents

No matter how you understand the Z documents, no discussion of the Golden Dawn tradition would be complete without mentioning them. Thus, I included a brief quote from Regardie's Golden Dawn.

--Frater HH

Max is out to harm the E.O.G.D.

Max, aka Frater 555, Frater AoC is out to slander and twist and turn the truth surrounding the E.O.G.D and other Golden Dawn Orders that he has become antagonist towards. Since Max has shown up on the wikipedia scene, he has tried to claim ownership of the 2 titles called "Golden Dawn Tradition: and "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn". As any scholar will know the original name in 1888 was "Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn".

The Golden Dawn Tradition consists mainly of an "oral tradition" also called Qabalah, which is transmitted by mouth to ear from Adept to the aspiring student. Just because one or two new upstart neo-golden dawn groups who have yet to receive such oral transmissions about the 1888 founding Order, does not mean the E.O.G.D. is wrong. They may not like the fact they have not received such teachings, it does not change the truth.

Max has been grinding an axe against the E.O.G.D. for many years and is trying to infiltrate the true Golden Dawn tradition with a religion that is called "Thelema" that was adopted by the "bad-boy" of Christianity known as Alistair Crowley. Thelema has never been a part of the Golden Dawn and many practitioners of several groups are protecting the Golden Dawn from ever becoming a religion. The Golden Dawn has always been full of the Western Mystery tradition and is full of Christian symbology, although understood in a mystical sense rather than a fundamental approach.

My advise to wikipedia is to ban Max from using there website and others who are antagonistic to the tradition.

Frater SSGD

I'd appeciate if you'd clarify a few things:
  • "As any scholar will know the original name in 1888 was 'Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn'."
Could you cite that assertion? I'm not disputing you. I don't know one way or the other. You appear to be a newcomer to Wikipedia and perhaps you are not aware of the policy of verifiability. The important point in this context is "One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher." That you know a thing to be true or false is not enough. You have to back it up. I don't say this to criticize you, I say it because I am always interested in learning and you have presented something I wasn't aware of.
  • "The Golden Dawn Tradition consists mainly of an "oral tradition" also called Qabalah"
That may or may not be the case, but simply saying it does not make it so. You must back that up with documentation. In my opinion there is much more than Qabalah involved. I suspect you are using the term to mean oral tradition in general and to me that is watering down the meaning of Qabalah.
  • "Thelema has never been a part of the Golden Dawn"
In the interest of full disclosure, I am a Thelemite. I haven't seen where JMax555 or anyone else has asserted that Thelema is part of Golden Dawn. It would be difficult to say that since the Golden Dawn was/is a fraternal organization. Thelema is a philosophy, or perhaps, as you put it, a religion, but it is not a fraternal organization.
As I Thelemite I consider myself to be operating in the Golden Dawn Tradition, at least in as far as I understand it. By that I mean I incorporate material from the Golden Dawn's body of knowledge in my own practice. The same can be said about those who were part of the organizations which derived from the original and of many others who have chosen to work within the Golden Dawn current, but who are not members of any organization.

The squabbling that is going on now is reminiscent of what has happened on Usenet. That squabbling has contributed to reducing Usnet to a smoking ruin of what it once was. Let's not do the same thing here.--◀Pucktalk▶ 16:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Response to "Frater SSGD"

1. I am not "antagonistic" nor "grinding an axe" toward the EOGD. My only concern is that the unique POV of their organization not be presented as a stricly factual and applicable to the Golden Dawn as a whole.

The titles here in Wikipedia have been the subject of "revision wars" before, as the History section clearly shows. All I have tried to do is present a neutral POV. In the interests of full disclosure, I belong to a GD group which is affiliated with Chic Cicero's HOGD (Inc.) In the interests of fairness, I have not even added a specific paragraph referring to my own group, so I can't be seen as pushing my own group's agenda.

2. The earliest documents of the Order simply carry the title "Order of the Golden Dawn". One paper designates them as "Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn", a name that was revived in 2004 by the group formerly known as HOMSI. See R.A. Gilbert's "Golden Dawn Companion" for photo reproductions of those documents. "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" became popular by its use in Regardie's series of books, but the original Order never used that name.

3. There is absolutely no evidence, published or otherwise, that the main teachings and traditions of the Order of the Golden Dawn are "oral transmissions". I challenge Frater SSGD to produce any evidence demonstrating this claim. As Puck has pointed out, Wikipedia's verifiability rules state: "One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher." If Frater SSGD can point out which reputable publisher has verified his claims of "secret oral traditions", and supply references to them, that would be a different matter.

4. As Puck also pointed out, nowhere in any of my edits to this article have I made any attempt at "infiltrating" Thelema into the text.

5. The tone of Frater SSGD's posting should be enough to demonstrate who is being antagonistic here. I am perfectly willing to abide by ajudication of the Wikipedia Mediation Cabal, and have already applied to them for this purpose.

As well you should have. I advise Frater SSGD and Fraterhh to go to Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-11 Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and add your comments. I suspect you may have some interesting things to add to Wikipedia, but it has to be done in such a way as to follow established policies. Getting involved in the mediation process might help you understand what we are trying to do here. With respect to the content of these articles, I am but an egg; fortunately the operations of Wikipedia are not nearly as esoteric and complex. I invite you to be a part of that endeavor. Whether wittingly or unwittingly, the way you are doing things now is disruptive and does not serve the important work of building a repository of well researched, coherent information about the Western mystery tradition. Something I think we can all agree Wikipedia is capable of providing.--◀Pucktalk▶ 17:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, it would be helpful to me and anyone else trying to follow all this if you typed four tildes at the end of your messages like this ~~~~ to help identify your comments by appending your username and date. Thanks.--◀Pucktalk▶ 17:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


The paperwork I have seen refers to the Golden Dawn as either "the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn " or the Golden Dawn in the outer" I made a reference to this in my book "Making Talismans", and the next thing that happened there was a group called the "Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn". Nick Farrell 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Another Revision

The only thing that I changed this time around was the first sentence in the section on the EOGD referring to the EOGD as an organization founded in the 80's by Robert Zink, Sonya Zink and John Brawl. Mr Max, I challenge you to produce any published work which shows this.

Frater HH 08:24 13 June 2008

It happens to be factual. I've corresponded with all three individuals over a space of the last three or four years. Any person connected with the HOMSI at the time could verify it -- it's not like it's some great secret. It's simply of historical interest.
Sonya Zink was Robert Zink's wife at the time, and John Brawl was their partner. Shall we remove all the other references to persons who founded the other groups as well? For someone who claims to be "independent", you certainly are sensitive about the EOGD entries, while not seeming to care a whit about any of the others. But if it makes you stop re-editting the rest of the article, fine. You win. Congratulations! -- JMax555 22:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Variables of Golden Dawn History

Robert Zink was not involved in Golden Dawn studies before he married Sonya Nieman. She introduced him to the subject of magick even though he was a sceptic of the Amazing Randy school of thought. This is a moot point, it is like Mr. Griffin proving his lineage or even Mr. Webster proving he was actually initiated by Mr. Cicero. All we have is Mr. Webster and Mr. Cicero's word for it. The whole thing could become a mismash of diluted information. As first a historan, I am more concerned with allowing for a free flow of variables of history, rather than a dogmatic approach. I think your approach is designed to dilute what appears to be some stong factual arguments.

Dr. John Gold

Well, "Doctor", your first error is to state that Mr. Webster was initiated by Mr. Cicero. He was initiated to the 0=0 by Cris Monnastre (Pat Behman) in the Los Angeles temple. Later he was advanced to the 5=6, also by her as Chief Adept of the ceremony, in Cicero's Vault in Georgia. As a matter of fact, with my own eyes I have seen the photographs taken before and after the ceremony, showing all the Officers (Monnastre, Forrest and Cicero) and Mr. Webster in their Regalia, and I have seen Mr. Webster's Initiation documents, as well as the document sent by Mr. Cicero in his capacity as Cancellarius which demitted Mr. Webster from the Los Angeles temple.
Now, I suppose all of those pieces of documentation could have been faked, the photos staged, and all parties involved (Mr. Cicero, his wife, Mr. Webster, his wife, Mr. Forrest, and Ms. Monnastre, all shown in the photographs) blatantly lying for some strange purpose that could have nothing to do with the current controversies, as none of this nonsense was happening in the late 1980s. I guess that's what you mean by "free flow of variables of history"? I suppose I could be lying too, but at least I use the name under which I am known in the community, I have previously published a history of the GD that has been linked to from many places over the three years it has been on the Web, and I have a long public record of activity in this area that can be accessed and evaluated. And who are you, "Doctor"? Strangely, a Google search for "free flow variables" + history turns up nothing besides two refrences to computer programming. Is this some new theory you have discovered as a "historian"? Is it anything like the assertion of Mustapha Mond in Huxley's Brave New World that "history is bunk", or the assertion by O'Brian in Orwell's Ninteen-Eighty Four that 'he who controls the past controls the present"? You would do well in a job at Orwell's Ministry of Truth, my friend. Ignorance is strength, indeed!
And actually, this is not even an issue, as I have not tried to revert to any version of this article that included any mention of Mr. Zink's background. What you keep adding is references to "This was a return back to their previous name, but without the confusion of other Orders who use the name "Hermetic".", of which there is no record or even a claim by Mr. Zink that this was the case, and "long-distance or "astral" initiations of members based on the principals of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes" which is utter nonsense (as if 'as above so below" is meant to specifically sanction 'astral initiations'). These changes have nothing to do with "free flow variables of history", whatever that means, but are simply biased POV edits to the article to promote the EOGD and its philosophies over all others. You can't possibly believe a Wikipedia Mediator will not see this. I can only hope they get around to semi-protecting this article as soon as possible. - JMax555 17:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, your edit to state that the HOGD (Inc.) requires it's licensees to adhere to the Z Documents as canonical is erroneous. The license agreements issued by the HOGD (Inc.) make no mention whatsoever of the Z Documents, and I have also seen these documents with my own eyes. Therefore I am reverting the article back to its non-POV version yet again. - JMax555 17:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Edits on Jan 16, 2006

The edits starting here don't make much sense to me. 66.58.194.214 apparently has a beef with EOGD, not to mention, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amberandjet/, but since it didn't explain itself I can only speculate. Regardless of my questions about their significance, the material shouldn't be deleted completely. They obviously exist and probably should be covered in this article. 209.200.60.124's attempt to restore the POV material without really understanding the mechanics of the layout should be reverted to Barthimaeus's NPOV edit. I would do it myself, but I'm trying to avoid the back-and-forth of the past couple of days. This isn't worth getting more gray hair about so I'm just going to leave my opinion here and hope things settle down.--◀Pucktalk▶ 14:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Reversion on Jan 17th

The edit by Frater HH to the effect that Chic Cicero of the HOGD agrees with the practice of "astral initation" was blatantly false. He does not, and his own Temples require all Initiations to be performed with the candidate physically present. I can't speak for Mr. Zalewski's position, but since he does not operate any temples, his opinion is moot. -- JMax555 02:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Reversion on Jan 27th

Anonymous edit adding unsubstantiated claims and biased opinions of the EOGD was removed. - JMax555 07:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Edits on Jan 27, 2006

The Ordo Stella Matutina has a collection of unpublished Golden Dawn and Rosicrucian material that they include along with the traditional GD Material. The term "published material" seems to have peojrative connotations to a large number of people in the occult community without any regard to the application of the materials in question. We welcome any requests from a third party to verify our claims regarding the existence of unpublished Golden Dawn material in our possession by sending a request to vhfratergl@ritual-magic.com.

-- ThothHermes 09:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Removal of EOGD links

Although someone in support of the EOGD keeps spamming their links to other less appropriate Wikipedia articles, in this article they are definitely on-topic. If anyone looks at my posts to the discussions here, I'm certainly not inclined to be an EOGD defender. But they are an active Golden Dawn order, and so properly belong in any collection of links to active Golden Dawn orders. I don't think they realize that spamming multiple articles not specifically about the Golden Dawn with the same link is unacceptable behavior in the Wiki community. But I think it is completely fair that their link be in THIS article, since they are specifically referred to in a section of it. - JMax555 04:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I don´t know why the EOGD links keep getting removed, they certainly belong on this page. If someone has a problem with link farming then they should speak up on the talk pages, not retaliate by culling links on other pages.Barthimaeus 15:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Vandal watch

"Someone" has obfuscated the external link to the OSOGD at the GD Tradition to "Open Sores Order of the Golden Dawn".
Here is a link to the diff. The spoof page was last modified on 02/06/2006 at 11:31 AM. The link was added to wikipedia on 02/06/2006 at 11:45 AM. This is the only contribution from User:209.160.73.26.
Cyberdenizen 23:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Ouch. I will keep an eye on this as well. --Barthimaeus 23:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
An eye also needs to be kept on 69.219.103.195, who keeps re-editting the arcticle that was FINALLY hammered out as being fair to all groups with a big slice of propaganda promoting their group as the "one and only true Golden Dawn."

Ordo Stella Matutina Section Edit

I removed the partial sentence: "...as current evidence suggests that these are not the most effective form of initiation into the Golden Dawn system." There is no "evidence" being offered. It seems like it would be very difficult to provide "evidence" of this claim that wasn't entirely subjective and self-referential.

The extensive quotes being offered in support of "self-initation" are too lengthy and tend to support a biased POV. Not all GD organizations and practitioners agree about the value of self-initiations. It would be better to create a new Wikipedia entry regarding self-initation (as was done with the Cipher Manuscript) and place the quotes there, rather than in a generalized encyclopedia article.

Regarding the recent anonymous biased-POV edits

The HOGD, Inc. did not "start as an O.T.O. camp" -- this is a biased POV statement intending to link the HOGD, Inc. to the OTO, since some Golden Dawn practitioners have a prejudiced opinion of the OTO. As such, it is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article and violates Wikipedia's policies of neutrality.

Likewise, the aside added about the Llewellyn Books edition of Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" -- "though this collection is unconnected to the Ciceros (in fact, the introduction was written by Patricia Behman a/k/a Cris Monnastre)..." is again intended to prejudice the reader against one Golden Dawn group against another. The HOGD/A+O (which this anonymous editor obviously represents) makes much of their connection to Ms. Behman as being the "true lineage" of the Regardie legacy, and this is reflected in the edited text of the entry for their own group.

The comment concerning how certain groups which are licensees of the HOGD Inc. non-profit "diverge from tradition in that they practice Thelema, Martinism, self-initiation, and astral initiation", is again a biased POV, since not a single group currently practicing the Golden Dawn system adheres without exception to the "traditional" practices and teaching system of the early British Lodges, including the HOGD/A+O. Thus the mention of this in context to the HOGD Inc. ONLY is still another attempt at POV-bias.

If this anonymous biased-POV editing continues, I will again take this dispute to the Wikipedia mediation board for review. The likely result will be a lock-down of the article and NO ONE will be able to edit it, not even to correct honest errors or add new material. No one wants this, so please discuss edits here in the Discussion area before making them. And get a Wikipedia account so people know who you are.

(And please learn how to spell and use appropriate sentence structure and punctuation. That's what spell-checkers are for.) - JMax555