Talk:Gojoseon

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 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wayne Leigh (talk • contribs) 06:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] How can books written so much later be quoted as sources of authority?

I continue to be amazed at all the historians for continuing to quote from the Samguk Yusa as if it was Gospel Truth. A book written in 13th Century CE with political justification in mind would be suspect by any criteria. However, Korean national pride has prevented an unbiased assessment of the past. Although all the East Asian states are guilty of such biase, it appears the Koreans are much more rigidly so.Wayne Leigh 10:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

When only a few references remain such as Samguk Yusa because most historical documents have been purposefully destroyed or stolen by the Japanese, what you should be amazed at is the strength of the Korean culture to somehow still preserve at least some of its history, not the Korean national pride which is the sole reason why Korea still stands as a country after numerous number of invasions from China, Japan and Mongolia. No wait, be amazed at both, just positively. You have absolutely no right to to call Koreans biased, and Wikipedia is definitely not a place for you to do so. Wookie919 (talk) 02:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed to support claims of Gojoseon as a Great Power

You need to cite the ancient contemporaneous sources which mentioned the existing of this polity called Gojoseon, especially in the highly dramatic descriptions of war with the state of Yan. Without these, it is difficult to put forward claims that Gojoseon is a power and highly organized state rather than a loose confederation under a chieftain.Wayne Leigh 10:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wayne Leigh (talk • contribs) 09:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gojoseon Equals Liaoning Bronze Dagger Culture

The Liaoning bronze dagger culture is an archeological complex of the late Bronze Age in Northeast Asia. Artifacts from the culture are found primarily in the Liaoning area of Manchuria and in the Korean peninsula. Various other bronze artifacts, including ornaments and weapons, are associated with the culture, but the daggers are viewed as the most characteristic.

Lee (1996) considers that the culture is properly divided into five phases: Phases I and II typified by violin-shaped daggers, Phases IV and V by slender daggers, and Phase III by the transition between the two. Of these, remains from Phases I, II and III can be found in some amounts in both the Korean peninsula and Manchuria, but remains from Phases IV and V are found almost exclusively in Korea.Wayne Leigh 10:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Founding Myth is Not Historically Accurate

The founding myth of Old Gojoseon should not be used as an actual historical civlization. Old Gojoseon should be considered a semi-mythical dynasty, with the mythical founding date of 2333 BCE.

Old Gojoseon has no archeology evidence, there is minimal textual evidence, and the story of Old Gojoseon was first mentioned after the 14th century.

Intranetusa 03:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article move

There was a suggestion that Go-Joseon be renamed and moved to Gojoseon, Former Joseon or Old Joseon, but no debate.

[edit] Founding myth of Korea

anyone want to take up maybe deleting Founding myth of Korea? doesn't seem to add anything, other countries don't have analogous entries. there's already a separate article on Dangun. just trying to organize things logically. Appleby 17:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Credibility of Gyuwon Sahwa

Article states:

Gyuwon Sahwa is a credible historical record written in 1675 which is based on earlier records that are now lost.

However, I believe that its credibility as a historical document is disputed. The current official history textbooks in use in South Korea do not consider it credible, and do not have this list of danguns (whereas all the other kings/emperors/etc. are listed). [I live in South Korea.] Furthermore, many historians consider the work to be disputed (see [1]).

To conform to the NPOV policy, I propose that this section be marked disputed.


It looks like while HDGG is widely considered a forgery (it was not written when it says it was written, even though the contents are based on some earlier "alternative history" texts), it's more complicated for GWSH. Apparently the "original" GWSH is in the Korean national history museum, and many people consider it authentic (although some think it too is a forgery). Just because the book is authentically old, doesn't mean the content is accurate, of course. The content was not intended by the author to be a mainstream scholarly history, but a collection of the more nationalistic legends and alternative histories. I think it'd be good to briefly explain this in the article.

[edit] The "History" Section

The discription in the History section looks somewhat ambiguous.

The people of Gojoseon are called in Chinese records Dong-i, "eastern bowmen,"

Dong-i or Dong Yi (東夷) in Chinese can be hardly interpreted as "eastern bowmen", but rather "eastern barbarians." The term Dong Yi is paralleled with "北狄 (Bei Di)", "西戎 (Xi Rong)", and "南蛮 (Nan Man)", which mean "northern barbarians", "western barbarians", and "southern barbarians" respectively. The interpretation "bowmen" seems to be just the build-up of the character ("弓" the bow and "人" man). And,

...Dong-i, "eastern bowmen," belonging to the Tungusic family and linguistically affiliated with the Altaic.

Each of eastern/northern/western/southern barbarians is not a single race, but these terms referred to a group of peoples who lived east, north, west and south to the center of the Chinese civilization. And the languages of "eastern barbarians" peoples are not documented, so there is no concluding "belonging to the Tungusic family and linguistically affiliated with the Altaic."

Gojoseon eventually consolidated in Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula...

This sentence can make readers misunderstand, since it can sound as if the eastern "barbarians" founded an organized state.

In a later paragraph,

Gija, a subject of the Yin state, entered Gojoseon and introduced the culture of Yin around the 11th century BC Gojoseon clashed with the Zhou during China's Warring States Period (475-221 BC),

This can mean that Gojoseon directly fought against the Zhou Dynasty. Adjacent to Manchuria were Yan or Wei and the tribes/peoples in Manchuria may have fought against these neighboring states, but it's suspicious if Gojoseon fought with Zhou which was far from Manchuria and had much stronger states between Manchuria and Zhongyuan area.-222.15.81.187 13:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

  1. is it possible that 夷 was used to indicate a relationship with bowmen? why did they use diff't characters for "barbarian": 夷 狄 戎 蛮? i'm asking cuz i honestly don't know, though i'll try to research this further myself.
  2. i think the little evidence there is does indicate that gojoseon's language was altaic, see Fuyu languages, although i agree it should clarify gojoseon does not equal all of "dong yi" & the altaic connection is not certain.
  3. i think "consolidate" is a good compromise, as there is little evidence of a formal kingdom until later, but there is enough written & archeological evidence that gojoseon can be identified as organized within a geographic location.
  4. i don't know where this came from either, i'll look into this more, can you provide some sources we can look at, too? Appleby 15:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, 夷 狄 戎 蛮 were generic terms to refer eastern, northern western and southren people, respectively. Because of sinocentrism, they became to mean barbarians. For example, 後漢書 (Hou Hanshu) has 東夷列傳 (the records of the eastern barbarians) and it records people of 夫餘 (Buyeo), 挹婁, 高句驪 (Goguryeo), 東沃沮 ((East Okjeo), 濊 (Ye), 三韓(Samhan) and 倭 (Wa)[2]. Notice Chenese consider not only Korean but Japanese 東夷. --Kusunose 06:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Chinese people in eastern Shandong and Jiangsu provinces are also called 東夷 (still called that sometimes), and they were historically bowmen (archaelogical evidence). The term was later extended to refer to all eastern peoples (including the Japanese), and became a geographic term. There is no clear Altaic connection though. Many Northern Chinese have Altaic connections anyway (descendents of steppe peoples). Naus 06:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact or fiction?

I think it is a trifle unreasonable to omit doubts about the historicity of Gojoseon from this article. The historical and archeological bases adduced for this extremely ancient state are more than a little shaky. -- Visviva 05:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

it's my understanding that there isn't any doubt about gojoseon's existence in this area, bordering yan/yen to the west, i think referred to in various chinese records much before goryeo records (guk by 4th century bc). there are some doubts as to its exact location, with the consensus being pyongyang (or beginning in manchuria & later moving to pyongyang). during corresponding times in this region, there are walled cities & evidence of a fairly distinctive culture. i understand the debate is the degree of its political organization, whether a loose federation of walled cities (cummings, lee k.b.) or a kingdom. i think by the time of wiman, it may have been a kingdom, but not before. i think "state" is often, but not always, used by even non-korean scholars, although any one term is problematic because of the length of the claimed history. this is all from memory of googling at the time i worked on the article, so correct me if i'm wrong. Appleby 05:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When was Gojoseon established?

This article states that According to legend, it was founded in 2333 BC by Dangun, however I found several sources suggesting different timing - the the 30th century BC. Here are some links: [3], [4], Mausoleum of Dangun,[5].

Which is the more widely accepted date? Lejean2000 09:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly enough, all three of those websites are blocked from where I sit in South Korea. If the Mausoleum of Dangun article is to be trusted, however, this is a purely North Korean claim based solely on their own "archeological" findings. In fact, when I'm next among my books, I think I can find some scholars who consider the Gojoseon period to have probably begun some thousand-or-so years later than the 24th century BCE. -- Visviva 14:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
For instance, Cumings (1997, p. 25) only indicates that Gojoseon was among the small peninsular states which emerged "by the fourth century BC." Lee (1984, p. 13) also only mentions Gojoseon as having emerged in the Liao and Taedong valleys by the 4th century. Some, like Kim (1997) do regard "Dangun Joseon" as having possibly existed during the Neolithic period, i.e. before the 13th century BCE; however, by the same token they reject the possibility that Gojoseon can be regarded as a "state" or even "tribal confederation" in the modern sense.
Of course, there is ultimately no satisfactory answer to the question, since no satisfactory historical record exists; but any date prior to 500 BC must be considered speculative and/or legendary. -- Visviva 06:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A bit of a re-organization

I have reshaped part of the article a bit. I have moved the historical parts ("Kingdom".. and a very short paragraph whose title I forgot) to the newly named "Founding legend and historical foundation of Gojoseon", which seems to make more sense, as the legends have historical significance and is relevant to the somewhat obscure history of the old kingdom, and added my own content based on the reading of Lee Ki-Baik's "Hanguksa Sillon", among other things. I have not subtracted anything but slightly rewritten some sentences. They can probably be improved even more. The "iron culture" section could be expanded a lot more, I'm sure. A bibliography section should also be added...

[edit] Bronze Culture + Iron Culture

Very very important sections, I think. I corrected some the (horrible) grammar of the bronze culture paragraph. I don't have time to do the rest now, but can someone please, rephrase this section? There's also a problem of content. No real comparison with Chinese bronze culture of the time, and of course, no references. Iron culture deserves a lot more content as well... Shogo Kawada 23:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC) I've done it, anyway. Shogo Kawada 16:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding the map of Gojoseon's territory

Image:Gojoseon4.png
150px

I have added the map of Gojoseon's territory. But, it is removed by someone. I think that this map is reasonable.
This map is the results of Professor Yoon in Dankuk univ. as everybody knows it. I want to discuss about the map.

I see two major problems with the map:
1) it appears to be either from a copyrighted book, or a copyrighted blog; in either case, it is subject to deletion as a copyvio.
2) It represents one person's research; this may or may not reflect general consensus among scholars of early Korean history.
If the map can be used at all, it should be clearly labeled as one person's theory. Most of the texts I have indicate that Gojoseon probably occupied some area of northern Korea or Manchuria, but do not suggest anything near the scope indicated by this map. -- Visviva 06:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
It is fair that all theories or major a few theories about the gojoseon territory should be described according to the opinion of Visviva
I think I should find another map or draw by myself based on the theory.--Hairwizard91 04:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a new section about the territory of Gojoseon

It is better adding a new section of gojoseon's territory because there are several different thoeries about it. Maybe, it can be categorized into three things.
1. Based on the Prof Yoon, the territory covers sourth manchuria, some of Liaoning, Liaodong, and north Korean
2. The territory covers only Liaoning.
3. The territory covers only Pyongyang.

Anybody can comment about these three territory theory.

[edit] Can someone give the source of the foundation years of Gojoseon?

  • BC 2622 by whom ?
  • BC 2786 by whom ?
  • BC 2800 by whom ?
  • BC 2337 by whom ?

There are so many theories about the foundation years. Can anyone give the sources of them ? ??? I thought Wikipedia said that Japan was under Gojoseon's rule... What about that information?? I want to know... Did Gojoseon occupy Japan or no??? PLz someone answer me.. I have a project due on Japan.

No, it didn't. Check any book you want on Japanese history. Or Korean history for that matter. -- Visviva 02:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
There are three opinions
1. BC2357
Book_of_Wei(魏書), Jewang_ungi(제왕운기), Dangunsegi(단군세기), Sesongillok Jiriji(세종실록지리지) as the first year of 堯.
2. BC2333
(Donguk tonggam)동국통감, Haedong ijeok(해동이적), Dongguk Yeokdae Chongmok(동국역대총목) as the 25th year of 堯
3. BC2308
Gogi(古記) cited by Samguk Yusa as the 50th year of 堯
Chinese records of 四庫全書 says B.C. 2333. Korean just use this records of 四庫全書 --Drpepper000 09:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
So, the year B.C.2333 was not on Samguk Yusa. Then, the text on the article is wrong. Jtm71 09:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Li

I have made the link to "li" direct rather than through a disambiguation page. But looking at the article on li, I noticed that it ONLY talks of the li as a unit of distance, not of area. This means that the Gojoseon text is unclear/meaningless. Even when that gets cleared up, I think a parentetical comment on about the size of the area in km^ or mi^ would be in order to facilitate reading - rather than paging back and forth in Wik, crashing and simply giving up. Kdammers 02:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is the way of representing the area in East Asia. 2000 Li just is directly quoting the history books. Yan and Gojoseon was located throught west and east, 2000Li may the horizontal distance. Korean still uses 3000Li in spoken language (not in written language) when referring to the area of current Korean territory. --Hairwizard91 17:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The Koreans I asked do NOT use li for area (They use either km^2 or pyoung. Li is a unit of length / distance that they use (see my comments at Li / talk. In any case, what-ever it meant at the time of the loss of territory, simply translating it to "kilometers" or explaining it as "kilometers" does not give understandable information. Is it actually square km or is it pushing back the entire frontier that number of km. There's a huge difference. Kdammers 01:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand what you said. But, 2000Li is just quotation from primary source, and this is interpreted as the 2000li length from the west to the east. So, it can be used as the approximation of the area from the horizotal length. --Hairwizard91 01:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gojoseon as a kingdom

Was Gojoseon a kingdom? I mean are there any namings of Gojoseon as "王国" (kingdom") in historical records of 2 th.-100 BC? If not, would it be better to change the definition of Gojoseon in the head of the article from "kingdom" to more accurate wordings like "cultural and political entity" or just "state"? --133.41.84.100 10:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I wonder also,it seems the Gojoseon maybe the longest-existing kingdom in the human history.--Ksyrie 00:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewang yeondaeryeok 제왕연대력 ...

Jewang yeondaeryeok, the historical chronology does not exists. It is mysterious to refer a document which was disappeared. Jtm71 09:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recommend a good source?

What is a good source of information that discusses the archaeological verifiability of the Dangun legend dating to 2333BC?

Also, how come there isn't a left menu on this Talk page? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The subject of Gojoseon has been taken up several times indirectly in the publications of the archaeologist Choi Mong-lyong (please see his article for one example). He wrote several articles dealing with Wiman Joseon. Kim Jung-bae refers to Gojoseon as well in his English works, but he does so in passing. If one looks through the index of articles of Korea Journal and other names pop up (e.g. Yun Nae-hyeon, etc). However, they can write and write and write 'till the cows come home: there is no archaeological evidence to suggest that Gojoseon existed -- mapping the distribution of bronze daggers does not imply the presence of an archaeologically verifiable state-level society. A Sarah Milledge Nelson paper from 1995 (see her article for ref) discusses the political motivations for why there are still some trained academics who willingly choose to stake their entire professional careers on the existence of this Gojoseon. Mumun 無文 16:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)