Talk:Gojira (band)

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Good article Gojira (band) has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] Old comments

Does anyone feel like making this article less POV-ish? I don't know enough about the band to do it, but right now it's terrible.

I agree, I don't know much about the band either, but this article left me none the wiser! It isn't written like an encyclopedia article, more like something you might find on the bands website.



Yeah, this is ridiculously POV. Someone please fix this Skullfission 03:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be because the bio is ripped word-for-word from the official website. However I really don't know enough about the band to write one myself...this should be fixed soon though. I might try and come up with something if nobody else does. Cloudy 11:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, never mind. I decided to just go ahead and remake the bio with what I know. I've also moved parts of the article around and added an infobox. Cloudy 11:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

I heard somewhere that the members of Gojira don't actually speak English, and are taught the English translation of their lyrics phonetically, is there any truth to this? Kingoomieiii (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

they speak english. you can hear their interviews on youtube, and although some of them (like the drummer) have ocassional language difficulties, the band overall speaks english fairly fluently, and their accents aren't that strong at all. Itachi1452 (talk) 00:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
See this 3 interviews. They have some lacks (the drummer has pretty big problems), but not all of them at all. Joe Duplantier is working with other musicians only in english (Cavalera Conspiracy) so no big problems at all. As you maight know french people have generally problems with english...--Lykantrop (Talk) 11:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This article is in decent shape, but it needs more work before it becomes a Good Article.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    The lead needs to be expanded, per here. For the "Biography" section, "History" makes a better section name, as seen with Godsmack, as it is an FA. The first sentence off the Bio. section, "Gojira was formed in 1996 in a small town called Bayonne on the South West coast of France", needs to be re-worded. This might sound like a stupid question, but what does this mean? ---> "After supporting bands such as Cannibal Corpse, Edge of Sanity, Impaled Nazarene on their tours and Immortal in September 1999...". Also, the sentence of "After supporting bands...." and "due to legal rights..." needs to be split, as a separate sentence. "Gojira set up their own label Gabriel Editions already in 1998", the word "record" needs to be added after "label". Same section, "Gojira set up their own label Gabriel Editions already in 1998,[1] and recorded their debut album Terra Incognita, 14 tracks of surprisingly rich music recorded and mixed at Stephan Kraemer's Belgian Studio, Impuls", needs to be re-written and 14 needs to be written as fourteen. Again, "Since May 19th, 2004, The Link Alive is on sale in France", I have trouble understanding and it would be best for it to be re-written and "May 19th, 2004" needs to be written as "May 19, 2004", per here. Again, "Gojira was featured on Children of Bodom's US tour in late 2006, joining Amon Amarth and Sanctity as the openers. Furthermore, Gojira supported Trivium on the UK dates of their European tour with Sanctity and Annihilator, and recently supported Lamb of God on their Spring 2007 American tour along with Trivium and Machine Head", needs to be split into separate sentences. New section - Musical style and lyrical themes, "The members of the band raised in a small village on the coast of France", "Gojira is using already since their debut album complex, progressive and richly textured song structures along with a Morbid Angel-type of death metal influenced by acts such as Metallica, Meshuggah and Neurosis" and "The link is going in the same direction as Terra Incognita, but is more thrash-oriented", need to be all re-written.
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    "The band released their second studio album in 2003, The Link (reissued in 2007 with remastered audio and new booklet artwork)", needs a source. "Joe Duplantier was invited by founders of influental brazilian band Sepultura, brothers Max and Igor Cavalera, to join their new band Cavalera Conspiracy as a bassist", needs a source to back that up.
    C. No original research:
    Can other sources be provided to the article?
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    This article is need of a lot of copy-editing, as much of the sentences did not make sense. But, if the statements above can be answered, I will pass the article. Good luck with improving this article!

--  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 03:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I am woking on this--  LYKANTROP  12:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, after reading the article, I made some changes and I have gone off and passed the article. Congratulations. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. --  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 21:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It was a pleasure for me to write an article about such a band. I thank you for the review!--  LYKANTROP  11:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lykantrop's rewrite

Lykantrop, I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to improve articles but I really think the articles is not being improved. I'm very concerned about this article. I have checked most sources and I have noticed a lot is directly copy-pasted, reviewer's POV is introduced, sources are misused to back up original research, amateur reviews are used and valuable information is removed (and that's not all I'm concerned about).

I'm sorry but I'll have to revert/rewrite a lot of the changes you've made to make the article neutral and readable. Kameejl (Talk) 14:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but you just added lots of unsourced information. And you deleted my sourced information. I used only proffesional sites with text written only by website-stuff. Some of them even from recommended Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums. Problems with formulation of sentences will be fixed. I don't undestand your edit, cause normally you make good edits, but this one looks like bad faith. If you think I used original research, please tell me on the talkpage before you edit it. I am trying to make it a GA article.  LYKANTROP  07:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of my concerns/changes:
  • I thought the changes made it more difficult to fluently read the article.
  • Chronological order was changed
  • Intro is not backed up by infobox and contains highly redundant info. (mainly introducing an unsourced genre and member info that was already mentioned 3 times throughout the article)
  • POV was introduced (needless superlatives like in "After the extraordinary success" or non-encyclopedic subjective terms as "The band plays a very "angular"...")
  • Using seasons (like "spring 1982") is deprecated as seasons are not the same for every country (Australia for example)
  • Wrongly sourced info and therefore OR ("The link is going in the same direction as Terra Incognita, but is more thrash-oriented." is not stated by the source)
  • The use of user reviews from prog archives.
I changed the order, of the text to make it more chronological, I've removed POV and redundant info, removed unencyclopedic content and citations and tweaked some text to make it more wikipedia compliant. Like I said, I appreciate your willingness to improve this article, but please keep in mind you're working on an encyclopedia, not a fansite. Kameejl (Talk) 09:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok I acknowledge that--  LYKANTROP  15:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I am also against introdicing of all the genres in the lead section. It is already in the infobox (exactly as it would be in the lead section) and it has its own section. The members do not have their instruments in infobox. See some other GAs Metallica, Lamb of God (band), Godsmack. Try to expand it please, not shorten.--  LYKANTROP  15:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
On Gojira's Myspace (here) there is "And even though their influences may be drawn from the likes of Metallica, Meshuggah and Morbid Angel,". I didn't find anything about Tool or Death.--  LYKANTROP  16:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
But generally - thanks for assistance --  LYKANTROP  16:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Was it your idea - the "see below for musical style" thing? If yes - very good idea man!--  LYKANTROP  17:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, the article is indeed improving, but I still see some quality issues:
  • "...and the usage of tribal drumming, which could be compared to "Roots"-era of Sepultura..." The sentence is absolutely not backed up by the source. The reviewer has never compared the use of tribal drums or any other trait to Sepultura, it might be your interpretation but the reviewer never said anything like it (I think it's OR). The reviewer only stated that "At times, the band reminds [him] of “Roots”-era SEPULTURA". I'll remove it.
  • The musical style section reads like a bunch of sentences copy-pasted from reviews. For the content to be reader friendly it should be more prose-like. I'll rewrite it.
So again a rewrite. Kameejl (Talk) 22:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree also with that, the structure is really excellent now, but some important things were unnecessarily shortened or even deleted. I think that those sentences describe also the differences between the single albums and the progress of Gojira's music during the years. Some of them describe their music and I don't know why did you leave them out.
I found "Death" and "Tool" on Myspace. It has a german sign "Einflüsse".--  LYKANTROP  11:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • where did you read the link is thrash metal-oriented? It wasn't written like that in the review. He clearly states it's his opinion.
  • Why do you insist on tribal drumming? Is there even tribal drumming on any of the albums?
  • Why copy-paste texts like "brought by stark riffing", it's POV and unencyclopedic.
  • Where did you read about "atmospheric progressive elements"? It wasn't written like that in the review.
  • MySpace is in an other language for each user (depending on coutry of origin)
  • "Gojira plays complex, progressive and richly textured" all POV.

Please, there is really no need to re-introduce these parts. I've reverted it. Kameejl (Talk) 13:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I really would be glad if you revert only that, what is wrong. I repaired some of your wrong-formated refs and you reverted them too. You are giving me more work. So please revert only what is wrong and not every edit between the wrong one and the last one. I don't know what you want to say with your comments to MySpace.
  • "Gojira plays complex, progressive and richly textured" - I dont know what is POV about the words complex and richly textured. It is the same like "technical", "rhythmic", "precision", "unusual", "atmospheric", "progressive", "aggressive" or "melodic". Only what could be wrong is the word richly, which is non-neutral, but not POV. If it comes to Wiki-policies, please be exact and don't use the first one that comes to your mind. "Complex" is normal term as all the others are, richly textured should be rewritten to "frequently textured" or "plentiful textured" or "very textured" or just anything neutral.
  • Instead of "there is no need to re-introduce these parts" you should say "I have no need to re-introduce these parts". Maybe you don't, but I do. I just feel like you are fighting with me and are trying to enforce the article as you want it to be. But the article can always be improved in every aspect. "There is no need to" - is a wrong stance to Wikipedia.--  LYKANTROP  11:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry I've reverted edits that were not supposed to be reverted. Because of the many sources (especialy the bloating cite template) the revision compare screen was pretty incomprehensible. I will try not to do that again. I've seen your new edits and again, I see thing that need to be improved. I'm sorry if I get on your nerves, but I'm not doing this to annoy you, I just want the article to be as good as the band is :). In fact, I'm happy you are so motivated to improve the article. So, what is it I think I can improve?:
  • "They also incorporate traditional instrumentation and tribal drumming." I'm a big fan of Gojira, I have been to their concerts, I have all their CDs, and I really can't match this sentence to Gojira.
  • What is traditional instrumentation? In heavy metal it's guitar, drums, etc. Or do you mean traditional instruments (see article)? Or do you mean instruments used in indigenous music? Whichever type of instrument you refer to, none are worth being mentioned in the article. It's obvious they use heavy metal instrumentation, and (please correct me if I'm wrong) they haven't used any "traditional" or tribal instruments. If they have used similar sounding instruments they certainly haven't used them extensively and these instruments certainly aren't a big part of their sound.
  • "Gojira has complex, progressive and frequently textured uncommon song structures." I think this should be rewritten.
  • Again complex; I've looked through the sources and complex is not mentioned. I'm not completely opposed to the term but in this context it is redundant and subjective (I'm pretty sure a modern classical composer or jazz artist wouldn't think Gojira is that complex). The term progressive already implies Gojira play intricate music.
  • "frequently textured uncommon song structures". I know music but I really don't know what this means. What are textured song structures? What is frequently textured? I've never seen the term "texture" being applied to song structures. Normally it's used to describe the sound of an instrument or part of music (see here) and refers to a combination of harmonical properties and to the color of sound. I'd say Gojira has "richly" textured parts: the atmospheric parts. If you want to emphasize the texture part, insert it here: "Gojira has also been known to incorporate textured atmospheric elements and instrumental songs into their music."
I'll apply the changes, and I think it's a good thing some content is devoted to song-structures, as it is an important aspect of Gojira's music. Kameejl (Talk) 10:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I am really glad to hear what you say. So: Textured. We can leave that out (although it is mentioned here and also here). But about the complex song structures... I objectively really would say that Gojira has complex song structures. I am actually a big fan of both jazz and classical music. I would say that jazz, of course has its structure, but is much more about imrovisation and spontaneity. Heavy metal is (as I see it) one of the few genres where the artists reach such a compexity as the classical comporsers do. Of course only some kind of heavy metal artists do, but Gojira is one of the most visible ones. I am not saying that Gojira is as complex as Beethoven, but I would not compare complexity between different muscal genres. Compared to other heavy metal artists, Gojira is on of the really complex ones and if you mind the lenght of the "songs", note the tempo of heavy metal, specially Gojira. But I can't find the source where it was anymore, so... The traditional instrumentation - I know Gojira is not Soulfly, but on the record they use some other instruments for the instrumental songs. But generally I don't insist on those things above.
I am just trying to expand the article. And I also think that it is much better if we are two to discuss it. If you have some ideas how to expand it, you should apply them. Cheers  LYKANTROP  20:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article improvement

See Wikipedia:Peer review/Gojira (band)/archive1.--  LYKANTROP  17:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)