Talk:Godfrid, Duke of Frisia

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[edit] Three kings?

How come Rorik and Godfried (and his brother Harald) all ruled Friesland at the same time?Mmoneypenny 20:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a mix-up here with an earlier Godfrid, who was baptized 826 together with his father Harald Klak. I am too tired now to fix it, probably tomorrow. /Pieter Kuiper 23:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Good fix, though I suspect that this error is found in many scholarly sources. Srnec 05:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to Annales Bertiniani 852 II, as quoted on [1]; "Godefridus, Herioldi Dani filius, who had been baptised at Mainz during the reign of Emperor Louis, defected from Emperor Lothar in 852, raided Frisia, and sailed up the Scheldt and the Seine." Csprrr (talk) 04:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not see what bearing this entry has on Godfrid of Frisia, floruit and killed in the 880's. There is no way Godfrid of Frisia could be identical to Godfrid Haraldsson, who was baptized 826 as an adult. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 07:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, in this ninth century source, written at the time he lived, the scribe (possibly Hincmar of Reims) seems to think he was the same person. Although if he was an adult in 826, this would make him really old at the time of his murder, but its not impossible. (There are instances where the church considered the age of majority to be just 7 years old.) The older Godfred's last mention comes in 856, and the first mention of the older one is from 882, but he may well have been engaged elsewhere, either attacking Northumbria and East Anglia in the 860's, raiding in the Baltic or trying to establish his power in Denmark itself. Granted it seems unlikely for him (in 882) to be married to Gisela (the sister of Hugh, Duke of Alsace) at the age of 63 or probably even more, but again its not impossible. Furthermore, although I do not know what this is based on, the article about Harald Klak claims Harald was born in 800, meaning Godfrid could not have been an adult in the modern sense at the time of his baptism at Ingelheim palace near Mainz in 826. Csprrr (talk) 13:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The 852 source does not say anything about the 880's sea-king Godfred. Csprrr's speculations about a pensioner going abroad looting and marrying are not very reasonable. Harald Klak was king in 812; his dob 800 is worthless. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 14:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Allright well, looking at it again I have to concede I got a little bit confused by the way the source quotations were arranged on the website I quoted. Although none of this makes it impossible that both Godfrids were the same person, it's not directly proven by anything either. Harald Klak's birthyear of 800 seems wrong, given he was an active player in the civil war from 812 onwards after the death of King Hemming. Though he may have been just a figurehead for his party (Einhard mentioning him as being 'installed' as king with his brother Ragnfrid), it's more likely he was born at least four or five years earlier, although the further this is pushed back the older he becomes when he was actively raiding and killed at Walcheren in 844). Godfrid going out and raiding at relatively old age isn't unheard of either, nor are old men marrying young brides (for political purposes). King Harald Blåtand for example marrying his third wife at the age of about 55 and dying in battle 3 years later; this kind of men did not simply 'retire'. Regardless, given that the source quoted did not actually mention the younger Godfred, I can't raise any of this above the level of speculation, so I'll drop it. Csprrr (talk) 14:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As to Bluetooth: does any primary source mention three wives? Or is it just that different sources give different names for Bluetooth's wife? Harmonizing contradictory sources is risky. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 18:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read every last source pertaining to him, but Bluetooth is mentioned being baptized with his wife Gunhild and a son in 965 by Adam of Bremen. His supposed second wife is only mentioned in Europaische Stammtafeln, being a Wendish woman named Tove. His third wife Gyritha (the sister of Styrbjørn king of Sweden) is mentioned by Saxo Grammaticus, they married in 984 or 985. ES isn't really reliable in all cases and contains a lot of speculation, but it appears Harald was married at least two times. His children were presumably all by his first wife, although this is not for sure either. Csprrr (talk) 19:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)