Talk:Glossary of Messianic terms
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[edit] One column
Insofar as this functions as a original research in its three-way comparison, this table would seem to run into the same problems as did Glossary of Jewish and Christian terms. It was my understanding, Tim, from Talk:Glossary of Jewish and Christian terms, that this table would only serve as an editorial manual but not for article mainspace. Accordingly, I would recommend keeping the full table off mainspace and, here, limit the article to a glossary of Messianic terms, tabular or text. Thanks. HG | Talk 22:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would add that there was a solid consensus in the second AfD on this article. The only reason that AfD was closed was because this article had effectively ceased to exist. Recreating it is defying the consensus for deletion. -LisaLiel (talk) 22:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I just put it back here because people were saying they wanted it back. I don't have time for Wikiwarring. I understand Lisa only wanted this to be Messianic, HG suggested the title, and I put it up so people could cut out unnecessary detail. For the time being, I'll keep out of it and see what people want to do. My personal suggestion would be a one or two line subject statement with a link to the relevant article. If the views are the same across the board, consider cutting. If it's not a term, but a symbol, cut it. Anyhow -- have at it for a while and let me edit my book in peace.Tim (talk) 00:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I stayed mostly out of the previous iteration of this page because I thought the issues were well articulated by others. Now that it's here again, I'll weigh in. The entire notion of taking a list of terms and making side-by-side comparisons of their use (if any) by Jews, Christians and Messianics is as clear-cut an example of WP:SYN as I think could possibly be devised. It might even be a good idea to list this page on the WP:SYN page as a model of what should be avoided. If someone wants to create a glossary of Messianic terms that doesn't take the form of a side-by-side list, it would solve this objection, but probably not every objection. The fact that only one source, David H. Stern is cited in that column is something of a deficiency. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's just have a glossary of Messianic terms like the other two for right now, it's too soon to try to introduce the table again as there will only be more battles over it. -Bikinibomb (talk) 04:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Steven the sources will be added to like every other article on Wikipedia, we pissed away so much time fighting not much has been done with Messianics yet. -Bikinibomb (talk) 05:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Suggestions
First, find some Messianics to participate in their own terms and sourcing. Those of us who are not Messianic can keep working, but at least make sure they are aware that they are being defined.
Second, examine the Christian and Jewish glossaries for terms that belong here instead of there (like Yeshua and Brit Chadasha, etc.).
Third, source the Messianic column.
Fourth -- deconstruct one term at a time. In other words, don't remove from the column until the term is defined enough to stand on its own.
Fifth -- let's not waste so much time arguing in grand Wiki acronyms that we don't get any real work done. The last fiasco was a poster child for what happens when people twist the Wiki rules around in such a way that the Wiki spirit is destroyed.
Finally -- touch base with Kim from time to time to make sure we're on track.
I have the table archived, so I don't care if it survives here. Have at it.Tim (talk) 11:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Long overdue
Sometime in the next day or two, I'm going to solve the WP:SYN problems on this page by removing the table and making it a simple list of Messianic terms. If anyone objects, now would be a good time to say so. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- Steve -- thanks for your offer! The Messianic issue is a bit upside down. Since Messianism sees itself as a synthesis, parallel columns are the only way to avoid synthesis. Christian terms are sometimes used with Jewish meanings, and more often, Jewish terms are used with Christian meanings. This is, of course, endemic in the rationale of the movement itself, and I'm sure it's both legitimate and necessary when used internally by the group. But Wikipedia is a venue not limited to the Messianic movement. Use of the terms without parallel columns would actually serve to not only create a synthesis, but can also serve to misdirect people into believing a Jewish term really does have a Christian meaning in a non-Messianic context. Not even Messianics would want that, and certainly not Jews. Also, Christians won't be able to find a term or a meaning they need without the cross mapping.
- A SYN is created when someone says A is true (citation), B is true (citation), therefore C is true (no citation). The parallel columns preclude anyone from doing this. They simply say A (cited), B (cited), C (cited) with no value judgments attached. Messianics are Jews who believe in Christianity, but they believe (as Christians generally do) that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. The synthesis and (unintended) misdirection of a single column would not serve any interest, either secular, Messianic, Christian, or Jewish.
- Were a single column to exist by itself, Wikipedia would be establishing a synthesis for an additional reason: many Christians believe that Messianic Judaism is a part of Judaism. They would see a Messianic use of a Jewish term and believe that this is the normative use of the term. It is normative internal to Messianism, but it is not normative for the term in general use. Since Wikipedia is a general use resource, we would unintentionally be creating false conotations even with a true (but incomplete) denotation.
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- It's an interesting article. I can see some problems in the Christian column. Not all Christians see things in the ways that are presented here. I'm not qualifed to have an opinion on the other two columns. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- Steve Dufour -- I agree that there are problems. Since there are Jewish and Christian glossaries already, it may be time for a scrub, replacing many (or all) of the current Christian and Jewish cells with the newer definitions. It's only the Messianic overlaps that need to be selected from the other lists. The last days of Passover are looming in a few hours, though, so it would be next week before I could do anything.
