Talk:Globe Theatre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Globe Theatre article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Images

Would these images be good on this page? http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/HUA/TT/Globe/slide27.html http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/HUA/TT/Globe/slide28.html

They're a bit grainy. It might be possible to find better quality reproductions. Otherwise yes, I think so. The Singing Badger 18:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I think they would both be quite useful! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 22:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the black & white ones are not much cop, but the bird's eye view ones of the theatre and surroundings that can be seen by scrolling through the images are great! Olliron 18:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Worded Wrong

"Like all the other theatres, it was closed down by the Puritans in 1642, and was destroyed in 1644 to make room for tenements."

That leads me to believe that all the theatres in the world were closed down in 1642, and demolished in 1644 fir tenements...

Could we re-word it better? Billvoltage

Oh yes! Will do... The Singing Badger 21:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Globe illustrations

The drawing referenced as http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/HUA/TT/Globe/slide27.html is probably the only authentic on-site drawing of the second Globe (there is none of the original Globe). Wenceslaus Hollar drew it, probably from the tower of Southwark Cathedral (called St. Mary Overie). It appears in more finished form in his panorama of London published in 1647. (In the engraved panorama, the names of the Globe and the nearby bear baiting ring are reversed. The strange shape of the bear ring's roof has led to speculation that it was cantilevered so that the house could be used for plays too, with a "heavens" suspended without posts, above a removable stage.) The second sketch is about worthless -- think of it as a map symbol/icon for a theater rather than a representation of it.Jim Stinson 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Thought I'd added the following, but I'm new to Wiki and may have muffed it:

The illustration in the article is from the engraved and published version of the Hollar panorama, but "corrected" to "The Globe."Jim Stinson 20:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globe replicas

There are quite a few replicas of the Globe around the world - there are 3 in Germany for a start - which could usefully be covered on this page --Pfold 12:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree and it could be extended slightly

Strictly speaking, there are no replicas, since we don't know exactly what the Globe looked like (See Nagler on this critical point). For example, the Ashland OR theater, which I attend frequently, and which is cited in the article, is a large, fan-shaped amphitheater with vaguely Elizabethan decor and very roughly analogous acting areas, which can be re-shaped as needed for each play. Jim Stinson 00:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What Shows Were Like

Should there be a section detailing what shows were like?

Yes. The Singing Badger 23:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, a heavily qualified maybe. We really don't have any first-hand descriptions of performances. We can infer from some evidence: archeologists found nut shells, so, OK, spectators ate nuts. Some people paid higher prices to sit on the stage. The pit was open, so the groundlings got wet (we read of no rain-checks in Henslowe's account records). Were they noisy and difficult, like some 18th century audiences? Did the actors posture and rant, as Hamlet describes them doing? Nobody can say for sure. What a pity that Shakespeare in Love has just enough mild sex to keep it out of many classrooms. The film is far and away the most plausible depiction we have of a playhouse performance. Jim Stinson 03:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twenty Sides?

the part were it says there may be twenty sides links to an artical on 12 sided polygons 70.20.221.192 01:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Egan 2004 (cited below) points out that the 20 sides (or maybe 18) were calculated by measuring the angle between sides discovered in the partly uncovered foundation -- 20 sides if the angle was 162 degrees or 18 sides if the angle was 160. However, as he states and the official archaeological drawings show, the "angle" is no more than the intersection of two blobs and could be guesstimated at anywhere from 150 to 170 degrees. The latter would yield 36 sides! Jim Stinson 03:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globe Theater Photographs

These are on a University Website and may be free for use. But I am not certain of their licence. Hit CTRL+F and type globe in to the search box. You will see the globe photographs.

If you are not sure about their copyright/license status, we can't use them on Wikipedia. I suggest writing to the people who run the website at Ohio State. Maybe they can direct you to the right people. Cbdorsett 05:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replicas and References

I spent some time today cleaning up the list in the Replicas section. It could still use some attention with regard to the two theatres in Japan.

I strongly suggest locking this page for editing for a while - it seems to be a favorite vandlaism target for a middle-school class somewhere. Cbdorsett 05:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, it's my school! A lot of schools in UK/ Northern Ireland are doing a project on it at the moment. Don't worry, the project's over in a few weeks, but some people are so immature... User:Germs

[edit] Lighting

Someone posed an inappropriate question on the article page; but it was an interesting one "How was the theatre lighted?". In general, performances were done in the afternoon, so daylight was used. However, often people are stage directed to run in with torches, and the pace of the performance would be modified to the time of day - so, the more sombre/intimate moments of a play often occurred as twilight fell. Kbthompson 11:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's important to identify plays originally written for indoor venues, such as the first and second Blackfriars theaters, where artificial lighting was used.Jim Stinson 00:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural references

Regarding this edit, I believe it should be re-instated as a "cultural references" or "in popular culture" section. See Madame de Pompadour and Koh-i-Noor for other examples of where Doctor Who episodes have been included in articles. -- Chuq 10:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea. Someone should compile a couple more references, though, because I think having a "Doctor Who" section is a little silly. Watchsmart 06:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have re-added it, and worded it so that the relevance of the theatre itself is indicated. More references would be good, however! -- Chuq (talk) 12:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shape

Isn't it actually a rotunda (it is in the octagon shaped buildings category)? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

After doing a little research it appears the original globe may have been octagonal per the image on this page, but the new globe looks very much circular. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 12:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Doh! Globe_Theatre#Layout_of_the_Globe. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 12:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to be a contemporary image. Possibly, from the style, nineteenth century, before the recent archaeology. The towers definitely look wrong, as though the whole thing were just a flight of artist's fantasy for a victorian-era children's book. It's in the same class as the image of King Arthur's court, on the same page! --Old Moonraker 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The "octagonal" image cited is no older than 19th century. The octagonal globe theories were based on the London panorama of Cornelius Visscher. But since he left several flying buttresses off St. Paul's cathedral in the same print, his Globe is unreliable.Jim Stinson 23:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I apologise for my "hexagon" comment, but i thought it was. I have now found much evidence to the contrary. Thankyou for pointing that out to me. andrew rickert 08:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further reproductions (from german wikipedia)

One of the first attempts to copy a Elizabethans theatre was Edward Lutgers' reproduction of the Globe for the exhibition “Shakespeare's England” in Earl's Court, London, in the year 1912. The building was delighted and therefore not large on a scale 1:2 for enough for performances. More or less exact copies of the Globe of theatre, whose accuracy depended on the theatre-scientific level of knowledge of the respective time as well as on the use intended in each case, became in 20. Century always again builds. For example 1936 for “Texas Centennial exposition” developed in Dallas, Texas, a “old Globe Theatre”, which had however only little together with the original Globe. To Globe theatres in Swabian resound To Globe theatres in Swabian resound A modified reproduction - a multi-storey construction from wood and steel - of the Globe Theatres (realizes 1988 in Rheda Wiedenbrück to the North-Rhine/Westphalian national horticultural show), standing in the theatre tradition, stands since 1991 in Neuss and offers more to than 500 spectators place. Here each summer a Shakespeare festival is organized, with which troops renowned internationally and national arise and which present Shakespeare inheritance in new form again and again. Further reproductions in Germany are in Swabian resound (by the free light plays Swabian resound used among other things, builds 2000) and in the European park in Rust (2000). Note: Operated from 1909 to 1995 that 1906 under the name Hicks Theatre open theatres in the Londoner west end as Globe Theatre. It does not have however except the name anything in common with the Elizabethan Globe Theatre. 1995 were renamed it in Gielgud Theatre.

[edit] Layout of the Globe

The figure 43 feet is a myth, generated by John Cranford Adams in his reconstruction of the Globe. Not only was his deduction based on the Fortune theater, which was square (rather than round or nearly so) but the arithmetic through which he arrived at 43 feet is faulty. Adams' reconstruction has been more influential than it should have been, since replicas at Hofstra College and the Library of Congress were based on it; but, in addition to publishing outright mistakes, his work specifies features in far greater detail than can be supported by evidence.Jim Stinson 00:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with citations please?

Today, I edited the Globe Layout section for two reasons: first, it presented far too many conjectures as facts, and second, it did not include the results of some recent studies. Since I'm new to this and not too tech-savvy, I don't know how to cite my sources.

The latest survey of Globe reconstructions is, Egan, Gabriel, "Reconstructions of the Globe: A Retrospective," Shakespeare Survey 52: Shakespeare and the Globe Cambridge University Press, 1999. Online at [[1]]

The most recent and comprehensive discussion of the Globe's dimensions is, Egan, Gabriel, "The 1599 Globe and its modern replica: Virtual Reality modelling of the archeological and pictorial evidence" (title capitalization follows the original) Early Modern Literary Studies, Special Issue 13, April, 2004. Online at [[2]]

I notice also that citations remain in the article for items I revised or cut. I don't know how to handle them.

BTW: To cite just one non-fact, there is no evidence whatever that Hamlet Senior's ghost appeared and disappeared via the stage trap door. Egan 1999 offers useful caution about the tendency of Globe reconstructors to present speculation as fact.

Apologies for making extra work. Jim Stinson 22:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Old Moonraker 06:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replicas?

Strictly speaking, there are no replicas of the Globe(s) because there are no existing plans. Need to stress that "replicas" try to reproduce the acting areas, decor, and relationship between audience and stage. Ashland, OR, for instance, is successful in presenting the feeling of an Elizabethan playhouse, though its architecture is not even close. Jim Stinson 21:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wooden-O

With regard to the recent edit war over Henry V (play)'s 'Wooden-O', this was first applied to the The Theatre, so while apposite, it did not actually relate to this theatre. Kbthompson 14:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I would not consider edit-warring with User:Wrad—there has been only one edit each! --Old Moonraker 14:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

My deletion of Shakespeare also nicknamed the theatre 'Wooden-O' has been reverted by a very knowledgeable editor. To me it reads too literally, e.g. WS: "I'm just popping over to the Wooden-O to check the receipts". It just doesn't read right. Could anybody supply a citation demonstrating the contemporary use of the phrase (beyond Henry v of course)? With that it could perhaps be re-phrased into the actual usage of the time. If not, I would still advocate deletion.

--Old Moonraker 14:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The current footnote cites Schoenbaum, but in A Compact Documentary Life (page 134) he suggests that the Henry v chorus was in fact referring to The Curtain. --Old Moonraker 14:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
That would better fit the timeline of the play; they'd moved from the Theatre to the Curtain by then, but weren't yet in the Globe. (Apologies for applying the epithet edit war, it was just a skirmish, then ... 8^). I wouldn't have thought the term would have been used beyond the limits of the prologue to the play - but I like the idea. Kbthompson 15:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
  • To sum up then: it appears only in the prologue to Henry v and wasn't in use as a nickname. There, it was being applied to The Curtain (or possibly The Theatre) and not The Globe. I'm inclined to get on with deleting the passage once more.

-- Old Moonraker 13:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Done.

--Old Moonraker 06:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

My Riverside Shakespeare footnote says that it could either be The Curtain or The Globe. I'm not sure we can remove the Globe entirely. The play was first performed in 1599, and in that year they performed both in The Curtain (early in the year) and in The Globe (later in the year). Wrad 06:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
From Shapiro, it seems that construction of The Globe started very early in 1599, so User:Wrad could be right, although "could be right" doesn't get it into the encyclopedia, of course. My main objection is that that we have found just the one usage, in Henry v, and I don't believe this makes it common enough for a nickname. --Old Moonraker 07:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, "could be right" is about as far as you ever get with Shakespeare. I don't know about calling it a "nickname", though, either. It sounds colloquial and juvenile. Wrad 07:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bear Baiting House vs Globe

Looks like the caption photo (referring to Holler's sketch of the second Globe) got the two mixed up. Yosofun 00:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

In the original Hollar panorama, the labels of "The Globe" and "The Beere Baiting" were swapped by the Amsterdam engravers. It has long been the consensus that the double-gabled superstructure marks the Globe. The strange shape of the other roof has led to speculation that it was cantilevered and without supporting posts, so that the building could be quickly converted from theatre to bear pit and back. --Jim Stinson (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Pit" or "yard"

An inline comment has asked that the contemporary usage be clarified. There is a footnote for both in the article: for "yard" it dates from a playwright of the time; for "pit" to the modern Britannica Student. The authoritative OED can cite "yard" to 1609, but "pit" only to 1649, although it is generally accepted that usages would have been common long before an identified written source. It seems likely that both terms are accurate, but if there is continued confusion "yard" should remain. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

The article deals with two very different topics - one is the Early Modern theatre called The Globe in its two lives, the other is Sam Wanamaker's 'Shakespeare's Globe'. They are of course linked but, nevertheless not the same thing at all - as we all know, they are not even on the same site. If there were two articles it would avoid havingto continually switch from one to the other.

--John Price (talk) 18:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Update - I've gone and done it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pricejb (talk • contribs) 09:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There wasn't a lot of support (i.e. none) when you first mooted this, but now it's done I see that you are right. There's still a little to do to finish off: the lede here still seems to say (to this reader) that the article covers both topics; one of the redirects is a frustrating circular link. Nothing difficult, and I will give it some attention later today unless someone forestalls me. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Both problems now dealt with. User:John Price has made a big improvement. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hyperlinks

Could you please hyperlink the Romeo and Juliet? Thanks. CS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.228.72 (talk) 11:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC) there was also a porn theater there —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jake2321249j (talk • contribs) 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)