Talk:Glasgow Caledonian University
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[edit] Major update
It is not completed but any suggestions, opinions, comments, complaints, additions or deletions? Panthro 16:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- Things have certainly vastly improved on this article since I last touched it, so well done. There's always lots to do on every article, but the following springs to mind on a rough reading:
- The list of schools sounds rather like a prospectus: stuff like "internationally renowned" and "some of the best facilities in the UK" need to have reliable sources cited to support them, otherwise they're just someone's opinion, and should be removed.
- I think list of schools should list the actual subjects
- Saying the nursing school is "one of the largest nursing education providers" is a bit hand-wavey. It'd be better to say how many students are in that course, and how that compares (numerically) with comparable instituions.
- I imagine the nursing students are attached to one or several hospitals - we should say which ones.
- Does the nursing school offer all the kinds of nursing education? I was under the impression that to get the highest type of nursing qualification only Glasgow Uni offered the requisite course (of Glasgow institutions).
- What are the sources (exlink, ideally) for the Guardian and Sunday Times rankings? Also, are older rankings available (i.e. is Caledonian rising or falling in those tables)?
- Some mention should be made of the campus and associated facilities (I did much of this for University of Glasgow)
- The article desperately needs some photos of campus buildings.
- I believe there are rankings given (by some quango) as to the quality of research for different subjects. That would make a good addition.
- Do any faculty members have Wikipedia articles?
- This edit added some unfavourable, but rather detailed sounding, stuff about the article (which was later removed, apparently for lack of citation). Is any of that true (even to some extent)?
- Is there a Rector/Lord Rector of the university? If so, who is the current incumbent, and who has held the position in the past?
- I'll maybe have a more detailed read over it tomorrow. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Reply
- Agree about the proespectussy feel of the schools... was an almost straight copy from the website... probably infringes NPOV but it is only a basis until I can re-read it and fix it to become more neutral [and dare I say factual].
- Could be a very big list to list all the subjects... possibly I could just list the bigger ones?
- Well 98% of Glasgow's student nurses attend Glasgow Caledonian. Is the numerically accurate enough?
- Pfft... Caledonian offers Diploma and Degree undergraduate nursing.. but there are differences between caley's BA(Hons) and Glasgow's BN(Hons) - I could mention them possibly.
- League tables.. easy to sort out. Caley's position is rising
- Many different hospitals in about 5 health boards.. maybe we could mention the health boards.???
- Teaching quality... there is and actually had a title in for it but I got bored after a while and couldnt be bothered. Physiotherapy got an excellent, nursing highly satisfactory if my memory serves me right.
- Campus Development is on my list
- Photos are on my list and maybe an interactive campus map... if my skills extend that far [and wiki lets me]
- Don't have a rector/lord rector.[remember this is a post-1992 uni]
- There was an asylum on the site and I read similar stuff about its failings on google groups but I will have to do some researching to validate it... If I remember correctly there was a BBC News article.
Thanks for the comments... Panthro 17:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] This is an encyclopaedia not advertising space.
I am concerned at the apparent hijacking of this article as an advertising platform for the university, for six reasons.
1. Much of the content is from the prospectus, thereby effectively offering free advertising in an encyclopaedia.
2. Two unfavourable references have been removed without explanation for the change in previous edits (along with a major edit quite rightly removed, which was entirely unsubstantiated, but upon checking did return matches from the Glasgow Herald (with the full stories only being available upon payment)).
3. Listing of entirely flavoured content, including...
'Glasgow Caledonian University has established a distinctive identity in terms of its flexible, vocationally orientated academic programmes, its emphasis on life-long learning and the wide range of client groups it serves.'
'Having been patron of the College since 1944, the Queen was pleased to accede to the request in 1975 that the College became known as The Queen's College of Glasgow.' (over dramatisation)
'The University works towards the Scottish Parliament’s policy of social inclusion regarding improving access and widening participation in higher education through non-traditional routes and sectors.'
4. Alumni are generally regarded as those who lasted long enough to graduate with degrees.
5. The references removed without account being given were from a forum dedicated to the university. Amongst the posts were details of claims of statistics being falsified to improve the university's league table placement. After tables based on these new statistics appear, there is an entry here regarding the sudden improvement.
6. Despite many unfavourable events in the university's short history, and this being a larger entry than most universities, there is only one sentence offering mildly unfavourable content.
- Can you identify which edit introduced material directly from the prospectus? If it's verbatim copy of, or a paraphrasing of, the prospectus then the article is a copyvio and the offending revisions must be deleted from the article history (in practise that means if revision X adds the copied material, X and all subsequent revisions will have to be deleted). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not have a copy of the prospectus, but can confirm it when I am in the Mitchell again and check whether paraphrase or verbatim. The edits started with the Panthro revisions. Although many previous edits contained "GCU could now be considered the prime example of what a 21st Century University should be like" which is excessively unimpartial.
The edits removing the unfavourable reference were from Revision as of 16:54, 21 July 2005 and were:-
http://www.unofficial-guides.com/comments/view/?id=56d33aa278605fc4e3ee0eaaa8e99fa4 and
http://www.unofficial-guides.com/comments/view/?id=229cc9ee849a9b3818bc7fc5f9675021
both from this forum
http://www.unofficial-guides.com/guides/gcal-comments.html
Although the second uses inappropriate language, albeit not surprising in a forum used by students.
The following is attributed to the university with an erroneous link but is a direct copy from here:-
http://www.learningservices.gcal.ac.uk/archives/gcu/
and has unimpartial content so should not be included.
- "Glasgow Caledonian University has established a distinctive identity in terms of its flexible, vocationally orientated academic programmes, its emphasis on life-long learning and the wide range of client groups it serves. It offers programmes in all of the SHEFC funding groups except medicine/dentistry and teacher education. In May 2002, it launched the first Scottish Centre for Work Based Learning. The vision of the University into the new millennium calls for it to be "innovative in programmes, learning and research, inclusive of all sectors of society, and responsive to the needs of the individual". The University works towards the Scottish Parliament’s policy of social inclusion regarding improving access and widening participation in higher education through non-traditional routes and sectors. Currently the University has approximately 15,000 students, 1,500 staff, 25% of students studying part-time, 66% of students over the age of 21, and more than 700 International students from over 70 countries. (Source:Glasgow Caledonian University)"
7. I am a former member of staff and have various documents I would wish to refer to when adding content. The documents are on paper, how can I show them here? Some are between Dr Johnston and the university's solicitor and reflect extremely badly. Could these be shown legally? I also have a government report that was never published at the request of Dr Johnston which questions the integrity of university management. It runs to over 100 pages, how can I cite from this?
Also I had searched details from the Glasgow Herald to confirm details of various things but (for example) it now returns :-
This was an article explaining the university found there to be nothing unsatsfactory after students on a placement in hospital had been told what they had been trained was out of date and could kill patients. But this summary hardly shows this, however the entire article does. I kept the actual newspaper, how can I display it? (its the Glasgow Herald from 28th June 2004).
Sorry, I normally do far simpler entries, but realise with matters like this far more substantiation is required.
Transnistria 23:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Response to above
1. I clearly stated in my above response that I agreed that the content was NPOV and was in the process of changing it. I admit I have used the universities prospectus as a basis adn HAVE referenced it. I am a student of the university NOT an employee.
2. Cannot comment
3. Agreed that some of the comments are "flavoured" and overly dramatic.
4. All of the alumni graduated with a degree from the University and predcessor institutions except Cathy Jamieson who gained a Certificate in Management and Rhona Martin who achieved a HND Hotel Catering & Institutional Management.
5. I was unaware that these statistics were apparently falsified, I simply entered the data from the two newspaper's university guides.
6. I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopaedic article about Glasgow Caledonian University - a description of the university not a discussion on the supposed dodgy dealing and suppression of material? I am a relatively new wiki user so if this is not the case then I apologise.
"The edits started with the Panthro revisions" - See 1
7. See 6 Panthro 00:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality
Is anyone else agreed that the neutrality of the article is not in question anymore with Pearlse edit?
Panthro 15:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel there are still many issues.
"The university works towards the Scottish Parliament’s policy of social inclusion regarding improving access and widening participation in higher education through non-traditional routes and sectors." remains directly from the university's site.
Having read through the posts on http://www.unofficial-guides.com/guides/gcal-comments.html and from my experiences working there, I still have concerns over falsification of figures for the purpose of league tables. Especially as I recall the importance of league table position being a major concern expressed in detail to the senate.
Despite the low positions the sudden rises make me wary of their inclusion.
It may be worthwhile to go through them and list the relevant ones as sources to replace references that previously disappeared from this source without the changes being detailed.
The convention that alumni of a university being those graduating with degrees still lacks compliance.
I also feel the deletion of the aforementioned unfavourable links and This entire edit which I have found can largely be substantiated on the Herald's and Scotsman's archives, are sufficiently salient to show flavouring by their omissions.
The assessments of teaching standards have also not been included despite being mentioned. Having read these it furthers my concerns of flavouring.
Accordingly I cannot offer my concensus to neutrality.
Additionally (for the clean up), many of the issues highlighted by
http://www.nao.org.uk/pn/9798680.htm
still apply, along with further issues from the unpublished Darby report.
Whilst trivial shortcomings are largely irrelevant to an encyclopaedia entry, ones of this magnitude entirely undermine the fabric of a university. Prior to its amelioration standards had been enforced externally by the CNAA, but then became the responsibility of the university itself.
Attempts to maximise income and minimise expenditure have greatly prejudiced university standards to such an extent that it may be unfair to CNAA students to be associated with the later degrees, so separate entries may be fairer. But I would prefer to offer substantiation prior to formally suggesting a split. However this can be addressed in the forthcoming clear up.
It might also be a nice idea to not use the main entry as a flavoured work in progress, especially when, as a student, you have a vested interest. There is an inherent difficulty in being impartial when you have an interest or close association, as with my associations I would feel uncomfortable offering more than a minor edit to the main entry.
Transnistria 05:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
On the subject of neutrality, and in that sense fairplay, why does this article link to Glasgow and Strathclyde university when the Glasgow article has no links to the Caledonian University website? Also, while the purpose of an encylopaedia is to provide a dispassionate, factual representation of a subject matter, should its authors not also take into account the human element? i.e. That the majority of media reports about the university and negative coverage is done by individuals who have elitist ties to the other "big two" of Glasgow. FYI I am indeed a student at GCAL, and I would be the very first to point out its mistakes, the Saltire Centre being the latest and greatest of them. 81.77.211.82 02:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)lpt31
[edit] University ratings
(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities.)
There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings. Timrollpickering 22:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poor quality university
I know some may find this offensive, but Caley (and Paisley) are two of the worst universities in Europe. Their graduates are not really employable in graduate positions, and the unis have a poor local reputation. This really should be in the article 82.35.59.204 17:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
They have a poor reputation amongst high school kids who have no idea what uni is about, or Glasgow and Strathclyde students who are convinced of their superiority. Do some employers have a problem with Caley graduates? Yep, usually because they [the recruiter] went to one of the ancients. Also, I would love to see your source material that justifies the statement that "Caley (and Paisley) are two of the worst universities in Europe" - that sounds like the usual "knowledge" of Caledonian that the hoi polloi share whenever they want to take a cheap shot at someone/something they don't really understand. Caledonian is a university with many fine graduates - you simply never hear of then in everyday life. 91.105.238.187 15:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
