Talk:Glaive

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[edit] Pop Culture List

Carnildo wrote: Trivia/pop culture lists are evil, and tend to grow until they overwhelm the article

I do not beleive either of these statements are true. Pop culture lists are not evil, and I have never seen one overwhelm an article. I will admit they are sometimes unneccesary, and frequently too long, but I think you are exagerating.

Furthermore, it seems to me that a pop-culture section could be valuable in this particular article, because this whirling throwing-blade definition of "glaive" seems not to be limited to one movie. It occurs both in Krull, [1] and the Blade series. [2][3] Yes, these things are not "glaives" by any proper definition, but most people in our culture do not train for mêlée combat, and learn everything they know about weapons through movies. Shouldn't we at least acknowledge this definition of glaive, even if only to trash it?

Speaking of which, I seem to recall reading that there were at least three weapons which were actually historically called glaives. We probably should mention this too. --Iustinus 14:47, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

In regards to your first point, please see the second half of railgun. In regards to your second point, please see the second half of railgun. --Carnildo 19:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe pop culture lists are entirely unnecessary, however I have neither seen one overwhelm an article nor swear an oath to Satan and begin practising arcane rituals late at night. I believe in this case simply stating what a glaive is qualifies as sufficient explanation, and there is no need to say "Despite what some believe, a glaive is not this that or the other". — Nicholas 07:24, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, OK, allow me to change tack slightly. According to the OED, the word "glaive" has been used to describe basically three weapons throughout history:

  1. A lance or spear (examples cited from 1297-1592)
  2. A polearm similar to a "bill" or "halbert" (examples cited from 1450-1678)
  3. A sword (poetic, examples cited from 1470-1887)

Etymologically, "glaive" is usually assumed to come from Latin gladius and/or Celtic *cladivos, both of which mean "sword," yet in the earliest occurences of this word in French it is used in definition #1. Definition #2, the OED claims, is found only in English. Definition #3, I think, is the only one in Modern French (though I will happily take corrections on that). This was the "third point" in my original comment. I think we should definitely work this in somewhere in the article.

Now, as for the whirling blades, I did some more searching last night and I found further examples of this: [4] [5] [6]. From a purely descriptivist point of view, I think we have enough examples of this usage that we should at least mention it. And actually, as there are a number of sources we don't really have to mention any movies by name. --Iustinus 16:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

--

user:69.255.46.172 added the following:

In the RTS Warcraft 3 by Blizzard entertainment, it is a 3-sided large shuriken used by Night elves with huntresses throwing them, and Glave throwers (ballistas)
in another RTS, Starcraft, also by Blizzard, Zerg mutalisks spit "glave wurms" that bounce off targets and also look like 3-sided shurikens.

I have removed it per the compromise with Carnildo: we are mentioning the shuriken-boomerang use of the word "glaive" but not enumerating occurences. it is good to know of another such occurence, but we don't want to turn this article into a list, which could get very long (we already five), and afterall is dealing with a very specialized use of the term, to say the least. --Iustinus 00:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|right|175px]] Seeing as there's a debate on having a pop culture list I'll discuss first. I'd like to add a mention of Sailor Saturn who is probably the most well-known example of a using an actual glaive in popular fiction. Her weapon is known as the "Silence Glaive" and there's an image here Leoroc 18:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

According too Weapons a 2006 guide by DK a glaive is a polearm with a blade like a butterknife at the end. It is also similar to the japanese naginata.--Jesgreenleaf 13:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glaive as a Sword

This is mentioned above several times, but there are quite a few occurences of the word glaive referring to a type of sword, namely the type of gladius wielded by infantry of the Roman Legion. Quite a few serious sources mention this, and in fact, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language sets this as the only description of the term "Glaive". I recognize that the etymology of the term is a bit tricky but the link with gladius seems intuitively right. This article is too assertive in denying this, and does not cite sources for its assertions. I believe references to use of the term "Glaive" as meaning "a type of sword" should be inserted into the article. Edward Grefenstette 16:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I assume that you are specifically talking about etymology, rather than semantics. But the article denies neither that glaive can sometimes mean sword, nor that it is probably from a Latin or Celtic word for sword. The point is simply that the earliest attestations of the word refer to spears rather than swords. As for sources, that section is based mostly on the OED (see the above discussion). I suppose I should annotate that.
It is interesting that the AHD defines glaive as "Archaic A sword, especially a broadsword." but note that it doesn't specify a Roman sword. Can you give me some sources on that? In English, I mean, because in Modern French glaive = Roman sword seems to be fairly common. --Iustinus 20:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, I'm arguing the etymology. My edition of the OED gives the definition as "ORIGIN Middle English (denoting a lance or halberd): from Old French, apparently from Latin gladius ‘sword.’" I'd argue that this indicates shakey etymology, and both possibilities for the definition of Glaive should be included, based on the AHD's definition, and the correlation with the definition in other languages. After all, if it comes from a french word meaning 'sword', which comes from the latin word for 'sword', then it certainly deserves mention.
As for the AHD defintion, that was only my assumption based on the term Gladius. Edward Grefenstette 00:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
actually glaive in french means a sturdy short sword, made for thrust and slash, as the roman infantry used. It seems strange that the only reference to a sword is as a poetic word for sword even in modern french. and that is quite false. [7]. saying that the ethymology from gladius to glaive is tricky seems bizarre at leaast. glaive comes from a latin word transfered into english. the transfert from gladius to glaive doesn't seems so strange. going from boeuf to beef doesn't move anyone...

[edit] Dumdedum

Just sticking this link here for future reference, some of these polearm articles need cleaning up [8] —porges(talk) 02:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] svärdstav

Not sure if the mention of Svärdstav is appropriate here.

According to the Swedish Royal Academy's Dictionary (http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/), Svärdstav has two meanings:

Loosely translated: 1) Under copper and early bronze age weapon with a dagger / sword shaped blade, mounted at a right angle on a staff about 1.5 meters long.

2) hollow cane containing a hidden sword.

The first definition could possibly be a Glaive, but the sentence looks romanticized and the description in the Dictionary does not match the design of a Glaive. The second definition is the one that i think most people would relate to as a svärdstav, and is absolutely not a Glaive.

I'm sure Glaives have been designed all over the world as some form of staff-mounted blade, but I don't understand why the Swedish version (if it indeed could be call a svärdstav) would deserve a special mention.

I'm going to take out the entry about the Swedish weapon, If someone has a compelling argument against this, go ahead and put it back in and state your case.

Popoi 02:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)