Talk:Gladiator

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Gladiator is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
January 31, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted
Other languages WikiProject Echo has identified Gladiator as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the German language Wikipedia.
Gladiators in a 2nd-century floor mosaic at Zliten on the Libyan coast
Gladiators in a 2nd-century floor mosaic at Zliten on the Libyan coast
Execution and hunting vignettes from the arena in a 2nd-century floor mosaic at Zliten
Execution and hunting vignettes from the arena in a 2nd-century floor mosaic at Zliten

Contents

[edit] Article

Here's an article on Gladiators from "A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities", John Murray, London, 1875. Someone might want to integrate this with the main text. (It is at:
[1] (copy up to "html") - copyright status seems to need better investigation (see related policy)).--Imran 16:44 Jul 21, 2002 (PDT)

[edit] Dodgy definition

The definition from the article

A Gladiator is a low-class infantry soldier, specifically selected for highly risky operations or combats.

seems to be highly non-standard. Every other source I consulted, including the text above, defines gladiators as Roman entertainment fighters. I will change the article correspondingly. AxelBoldt 23:06 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Thumbs up or down?

I have a question about the thumbs up/down bit...

"If the audience (or sponsor or emperor) wanted that the loser should be killed, they pointed their thumbs downwards. If they wanted him to live, they raised their fist but kept their thumb inside it (ie. they did not point upwards as commonly believed)."
I have also heard (from various teachers and profs, and various books) that they used the thumbs up/down the same way we do, or they used it the opposite way, or no one knows which was which. I have even had two classics profs at UWO give two different explanations (the latter two I listed). Is there actually any consensus? Adam Bishop 13:46, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Roman writers described the gesture as "Pollice verso", literally "turned thumb". But no-one really knows whether this was up, down, or neither. Matthewmayer
I've removed the current reference to it, since the grammar and spelling shown was terrible, and we have no guarantee that the thumb was turned one way or another. Perhaps that should be added in the previous bit of info's stead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.99.253 (talk) 07:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC).
Actually, thumbs down was never used at all in roman life, never mind the arena. To signal a death the ruler would present a thumbs up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.219.7 (talk) 14:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
Thumbs down was used because i said so and my great great great great great great great great great grandfather lived in rome —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hihihow (talk • contribs) 04:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable info about thumbs issue and other things

Please check out http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/arena.html. She also has an interesting contribution on the meaning of "pollice verso".

In addition, you may want to check out at least some of the literature on this syllabus: http://history.wisc.edu/Courses/600_Seminars/Spring2005-06/HISTORY%20600%20Seminar%205.pdf. For a start, I'd recommend esp. the book by Eckart Köhne & Cornelia Ewigleben, Gladiators and Caesars, Univ. of California Press 2000, because it makes the research of German experimental archaeologist Marcus Junkelmann on gladiators accessible to English-speaking readers and has great illustrations, and the articles by Hopkins and Coleman, all standards.

In its current form, as you will see when you read these texts, the article contains a lot of misinformation. For example, gladiators, at least in the proper technical use of the term, did not fight against wild animals - this was the job of the bestiarii. Gerome's picture reflects the stand of the historical research of his time, but there are numerous mistakes on it. For example, the combination of armour the gladiator in the center wears is not authentic, as Junkelmann discusses in his recent book, "Hollywoods Traum von Rom." Xiphophilos 07:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that thumbs-up/down was not the only way the fate of the loser was determined. If the crowd waved handkerchiefs, the loser would be spared. -Artemis/Apollo collaberation on Feb. 19, 2007

Actually, the emperor signalled for a death by using the "thumbs-up" signal, the thunbs down was never used in the arena or in any roman life.

[edit] Disambiguation of Seneca

I've pointed the reference to Seneca to Seneca the Younger, as it seems to be the most likely source. However, I have no particular knowledge here, and it could be a reference to Seneca the Elder. Please, if someone knows for sure, say so here, and correct the article if necessary. -Anthropos 14:01, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Odd looking sentence

What does this line mean ? "There was even a belief that nine eaten gladiator livers were a cure for epilepsy." Eaten by who ? Jay 08:10, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I did my senior resarch paper on the gladiators of rome. I've added some interesting things to this article.

Thanks...but don't delete other comments on the talk page :) Adam Bishop 16:21, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup?

Apol0gies, why did you add a cleanup tag to this article? What needs to be cleaned up? Adam Bishop 22:09, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would hazard a guess as the dead bodys/body parts of those gladiators who couldnt, excuse the terrible pun, hack it.

[edit] The gladius

The gladiator article states that the weapon called "gladius" was used by "some" gladiators, and that the weapon inspired the name of the fighter (...makes sense). The gladius article states that "[c]ontrary to common belief, the gladius was not used by gladiators, who used a version with a shorter blade". Could this please be clarified and fixed? Also, does this shorter weapon have a name, and if the gladius was not used by the gladiators, how did one name inspire the other? Thanks. --Liberlogos 22:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History Section

, with the intention of keeping alive his memory” (Baker, Gladiator 10). These were held for notable people and were repeated every one to five years after the person’s death. I noticed that the history section starts out in the middle of a sentence, and I can't tell what you were trying to say. I looked at the edit history but still couldn't figure out what had been changed...I just thought that I ought to bring this to someone's attention.

     --Lara (--70.179.84.171 04:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC))
Fixed it, I think. Thanks! Adam Bishop 04:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism target

[edit] Reverting vandal attacks

For some reason this article seems to attract schoolboy vandals like horse droppings attracts flies. Please look to history before reverting as multiple attacks may have occurred and a simple revert via pop-ups will not restore the page.

Ask me how I know. --DV8 2XL 12:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Fixed some vandalism I noticed. 207.118.191.107 18:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incessant vandalism

Have there been any useful edits on this article in the last 6 months? This article seems to attract anonymous vandals several times a day. Is there some level of protection we should or could do for this? Just wondrin' Mlouns 23:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but process-wonks love to come by and unprotect things after a few days, so it never makes any difference. Adam Bishop 19:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition for consideration

the following information are taken from a talk from David Potter on the gladiators, and may possibly be verified by information online and in publication.

On Referees:

One commonly overlooked part of gladiatorial combat was the existence of the referee: Gladiatorial combat after all, was an athletic sport. Gladiators as a rule fought in pairs, and the referee's purpose was simply to keep the gladiators from inflicting permanent/fatal damage on their opponent. Often matches were halted after first blood.


On weaponry:

Armor placement was designed to direct most of the blows towards non-lethal areas of the body. The raising of fingers that signified a gladiator's concession to defeat was almost identical to the signal greek wrestlers used for the same purpose. Weapons were blunted, and sharp weapons had to be secured by the express permission of the host.

Possible Citations: http://www.powells.com/biblio?show=TRADE%20PAPER:USED:9780812969665:10.95&page=excerpt http://www.amazon.com/Just-Facts-Ancient-Rome/dp/B0000507PG

24.62.7.239 02:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have rounded up a lot of sources (mainly Universities and archaelogical) that have a LOT of information not mentioned in the article that are notable enough to include. For example.. yes there was a referee but he also had an assistant to help make decisions. After a Gladiator was killed two people dressed as Charon and Mercury removed the body from the arena, Mercury carried a red hot poker disguised as a wand and prodded the body to make sure it was dead while Charon carried a hammer to use if it wasn't. Forensic examinations of remains show Gladiators fought barefoot and most interestingly, instead of being the buff atheletes with 6 packs we see in movies, showed that as a rule they were overweight. Scientists think they deliberately put on fat as protection against blows. Similar forensics also show there were three specific parts of the body that were regularly targetted, knees, head and believe it or not...the armpit. I'm looking at doing a few edits but want to make sure I have multiple RS for each one before i do. Wayne 19:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What type of sheltering did they have?

Where were the Gladiator's "living quarters" as it were.

I have a source that has a picture of the remains of a Gladiator school and living quarters. I'll see if I can include some sort of description later. Wayne 19:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Added a picture of a model of the main school in Rome I found in commons. Wayne (talk) 14:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Acta diurna

"Julius Caesar in 59 BC started a daily newspaper called the Acta Diurna (daily acts) specialising in gladiator news." I have heard many opinions of exactly what acta diurna was, some saying it was more of a public protocol than a newspaper. However that it specialiced in gladitorial news is completely new to me. We need a source to this. -Sensemaker

Specialising may be too strong a word so i'll change it. When it first appeared it was for senate debates (acta senatus) and Caesar probably intended it as propaganda as he used it to announce the good things he did as well. Cicero complained it had too many reports of the gladiatorial matches. The Acta then became mostly entertainment (acta diurna) so it follows the games would be an important part. The Britannica says it was primarily Gladiator news. The Scriptores Historiae Augustae say that they included everything typical of a gladiator and it's probable the content varied over the years depending on the "audience", in Caligula's time for example it specialised in debauchery. I made a lot of edits over the last few weeks and everything is referenced, the problem is that I dont know how to link the same reference for multiple edits in different sections but you'll find everything in the references and notes. Wayne 17:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Reworded acta diurna. BTW. I've added over 5,000 words to the article (over ½ of total article size?). I've added as much info as i could find multiple references for, but possibly I have gone into too much detail? It now needs to be cleaned up by maybe moving some sentences to different sections or rewording to improve flow etc etc. Anyone can feel free to help out on this as I think we now have the base for a good informative article. Wayne 17:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
That seems like good sources to me. Thank you, Wayne. -Sensemaker

[edit] Pop culture section

What are people's feelings on deleting this article's Pop Culture section? They tend to get loaded up with every single mention in any movie or video game, no matter how trivial. I'm for deleting it all unless there is an outcry. Mlouns 16:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Last call... This section may get deleted very soon if there are no objections. Mlouns 01:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest keeping "Novels, films and television" as these are notable and deleting the rest. Put in a paragraph mentioning that Gladiators are a popular theme often used in other areas to cover everything deleted and to let editors know that we only want somewhat historically accurate representations in the pop culture section. Wayne 05:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symbols

I have seen mosaics of fights with the Ø symbol, but there are also symbols that remind me of a heart (♥). Could it be the v of victor or is it another thing? --Error (talk) 03:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

== The decline of Gladiators -- a CHILDRENS book I read by minna Lacey and Susanna Davidson - "Gladiators" Usborne young reading -2006 from UK apparently from backpage - there is a monk named Telemachus - he steeped into the colesseum in Rome in 404 AD - he was against the gladitorial games and tried to break up the fight between two gladiators and was stoned to death by the audience - I'd like that added to the gladiator article under the decline section - think it's appropriate . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aborantractus (talk • contribs) 09:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article

Above it suggested we look at the German FA version to see how we can improve this one. I read it and this one is better!!!! LMAO. The German version has a lot fewer references and has copied some of it's content from this one (going by how it is worded). I also checked on why this one failed the last nomination and think we have addressed almost all of the complaints. I'm working on this again now after a break and I think we are almost there. Just needs some grammar and layout cleanup and I want to perhaps make a few more sections (move current material around rather than add more). Wayne (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I've started to work on things. You need to bear with me a little if things look a bit odd or out of place as I will do a bit each day and will properly line up pics etc once finished. Wayne (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I notice some fact tags have been added. Just so editors know. Virtually everything on the page is covered by the existing references however I need to learn how to do multiple cites from the same source. Once i'm happy with the page layout I'll learn to do this and add a cite to everything that requires it. If you have a new source that covers a fact then add it. The rest I'll do at a future date. Wayne (talk) 14:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Retiarius

Just a heads up to those who watch this article: I've placed retiarius at peer review here. Any comments are welcome; I intend to apply for Featured Article status in the not-too-distant future. Thanks, — Dulcem (talk) 05:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Habet

Does anyone have a reference for the assertions about the use of "hoc habet" (or similar) in the Typical Combat section? I can't find any authority for it (i.e. while the phrase clearly existed, there doesn't seem to be any authority for the fact that it was shouted by the crowd)?

The ref is in the external links. When I get time I will go through all the links to link them to specific article claims where needed. Wayne (talk) 07:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] did you know...

thaaaat... in pompeii diggers found grafitti on a wall of a house which basically said a certain gladiator "steals the girls hearts"? thats like people today writing "beckham is cool" on a wall! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Personperson5346 (talk • contribs) 21:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)