Talk:GKR Karate

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I've brought the Go Kan Ryu page over, and made it a redirect (some duplicated information, some new info) I thought the section on Sullivan's grade was relevant, but probably more inflammatory than anything:

His 7th dan ranking was awarded by his students. This move caused controversy in the greater martial arts community because grades can conventionally only be awarded by those off higher rank. - - In most styles, grades above 3rd-5th dan (it varies from style to style) are awarded according to the length of time since the previous grade, or sometimes for one's supposed services to martial arts. In actual fact, there is rarely any examination of an instructor's continued growth or contribution, so high-ranking grades are primarily honorary. Sullivan has been successfully teaching karate since 1984, and can rightly claim to have done more to introduce new people to karate than any other living person on the planet.(this could be arguably rejected by the followers of such oustanding Masters like Gogen Yamaguchi, Gishin Funakoshi, Morio Higaona, Hironori Ohtsuka and Mas Oyama among others) - - Although GKR has over a million lifetime members, there are over 55,000 actively training each week.

User:Mikro

This is good. Hopefully it can stabilize now. ZedZzizz 03:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed "The name of the club roughly translates to "The Hard and Complete System of the Way of the Open Hand" from the article, as it is wholly innacurate. Go means five, Kan means house, and Ryu means school.

Go Kan Ryu. Kangaroo. Anyone else see that?

User:Henry B 05:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Kanroo? No relevance to Kangaroo... O.o Unless you're a retard and can't spell. GKR's translation was correct. Go Kan Ryu Karate Do (Karate is 'Open Hand'? Go in eg. Goju means 'Hard', not 5. Unless you want to see it as 5-10 Karate :p)

Go Kan Ryu ↔ Kan Go Ryu. No need for insults. Henry B 13:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're gonna try insult the club at least do it's name properly.


Contents

[edit] Instruction

"GKR has Instructors who range from Yondan (4th lvl Black belt) to as low as Green Belt (6th Kyu in the GKR system) teaching public classes." Does anyone have any proof on this? --ZedZzizz 11:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of proof would you be looking for, ZedZzizz? Shinji nishizono 20:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Something a bit more substantial than "Personal experience, and the experiences of many on online martial arts forums will confirm that that are a very large amount of Yellow belt instructors within the system." to enable it to be used in an Encyclopedia entry. Seems a bit of a generalisation. --ZedZzizz 03:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I gave it the chop. I checked through the history and couldn't find any substatial claim to back this up. ZedZzizz 03:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


"GKR also runs instructor training classes every week - even more in some areas, and it is supposedly obligatory for all instructors to attend these classes, although in practice, this is rarely enforced, much to the disgust of dedicated GKR instructors, whose own reputations are tarnished by incompetent instructors." Sounds too personal. --ZedZzizz 11:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

"There is an article in the UK magazine Martial Arts Illustrated (January edition, released 15th December 2006) with Tony Pillage, a former green belt GKR instrutor. His published comments could be provided at least as a witness testimony for the original statement."

Do posts from former employees on internet forums count as valid sources of information? Surely given that there's no real "peer review" process for most newpapers and magazines anyway, the contents of internet forums aren't any less likely to be truthful. Shinji nishizono 14:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted personal comments

I have deleted the following comments from the text of the article:

  • Note - Having been a full time student for more then 2 years, I find it difficult to relate to these comments. However that does not mean it does not exists at some level, but those people who approach the full time position in this manner never last for very long. More then a large percentage of students (past and present) would not have joined a martial arts club had someone not come forward and offered to help. It is a proactive system designed to educate and help people to the dojo. If you're not intersted, then no amount of pressure will change your mind.
  • Note - In 9 years, I've never been discouraged from coming into contact with other styles, in fact on some occassions, it's been encouraged. There are a lot of positive philosophies and points of view and one needs to maintain an open mind. Any good martial artiest will known you can not effectivly train in two styles simultanously.
  • Note - Again, in 2 years in the full time position I find this difficult to reconcile. I certainly felt "respected" and was encouraged to fufill my own personal potentional.
  • "Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kanbi, The Empire Strikes Back

as the last comment is irrelevant to the article and the first three read more like someone's personal journal than an encyclopaedia entry.

Additional deletions:
  • Note - IF GKR represents a large percentage of the martial artiest entering (from a single club), it is, in my opinion, resonable to think that they would represent a larger proportion of the organisations volunteers (such as referees) and backbone members.
* Who is avaliable to grade you when no one holds a rank higher then you? While it might be argued that a master from another style might be used, they don't necessarily have the appropriate qualifications to make an informed and approriate decision based on the current style. Every martial arts has slight differences in their approach, techniques and even philosophy. Kancho's 7th dan within the GKR style represents his committment to himself, his students, his style and the greater martial arts community as a whole.
* Who awarded the first black belt (in any matial arts)? What were their qualifications to do so?
Who cares? Whoever did award the first black belt probably did so thousands of years ago. Withywindle 04:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This is stated as someone's opinion and is therefore not encyclopaedic.

Could people stop having personal debates on the Wikipedia page and maybe go to a chat site or GKR forum?

Shinji nishizono 12:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kancho

Is it really useful to link to Kancho?

That might be really funny, but it has a completely different meaning to what it means here...

--82.26.83.46 13:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Link gone ZedZzizz 03:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is VERY biased, and as a student of the style I feel it thoroughly fails to fairly represent GKR Karate in a fair light. It is clearly been written by those seeking to bring down an organisation against which their own style cannot compete. It should be entirely rewritten.

It just needs to brought into a NPOV and have un-substantiated claims removed ZedZzizz 03:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a neutral point of view. If you have constructive, unbiased, verifiable information, feel free to add it. Stop with all the POV, slander, speculation and vandelism, what is it accomplishing? And sign your talk page comments. superman 03:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Off Topic

This is not the place to discuss contact vs non-contact, there are plenty of other places to have this discussion ZedZzizz 03:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand how there can be an emphasis on kumite while at the same time be "non contact" This needs to be explained.

- Basically the punches are "pulled" just before contact. The theory is that if you have enough control to avoid contact, while at the same time being fast enough to defeat somebody's guard, then if you really needed to hit someone (ie you're being mugged!) then you could follow through instead of pulling the punch. There is going to be some contact when blocking a strike or kick, but blocks are designed to re-direct the blow, so the impact is going to be minimal. Sure, you may end up getting a few bruises etc doing blocks, but you're not going to have your ribs kicked in!

That whole rationalisation is completely misguided. If you don't train hard contact against a RESISTING OPPONENT, then you simply will not be adequately prepared for a physical confrontation. GKR itself if renowned for being one of the softest styles out there. Many people regard it on the same level as Tae Bo. That's not good...

-Many Karate styles adopt this method, not everybody is willing to spend a week in hospital every few months because of training.

Just because many do it, doesn't make it right. Have you heard the term "McDojo"?

And training against resistance doesn't mean spending time in hospital, there are many ways to train in a safe manner. If what you say were an issue, how do the thousands of legitimate martial arts schools remain open? How did Kyokushin become one of the most widespread single organisation styles of Karate? I have no problem with sport martial arts in any way. A strong sports martial art (ie WTF TKD) will get you fit. But GKR actively markets itself as a self defence system, when it clearly is nothing of the sort. It is a point based sport karate, more akin to aerobics than self defence. And using the term "traditional" in their marketing material is an insult to real Okinawan karate and it's predecessors.Falcore 02:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion only ZedZzizz 03:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

-I would bet an arm and a leg that every person who has graded to a GKR black belt is much more equipped to defend themselves then before they started, a full contact style may be more beneficial but that does not make every other style useless. GKR has always promoted itself as a family orientated club, how many kids would enjoy getting beaten up every week!

Agreed. But a minimum of 4 years of training to be slightly more equipt to defend themselves? What a waste, not only of money but that is four years that could be spent training in a legitimate martial system. I did not say every other style bar full contact is useless. Kids of the world, I would like you to know the following: even though McDojo proprietors will tell you otherwise, studying a system that includes resistive training will not mean you get beaten up each week. And yes, GKR promotes itself as family oriented, great. They also promote themselves as a legitimate self-defence system, and "traditional". GKR is neither of these.Falcore 02:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I train in two other "reputable" martial arts, with nationally respected instructors. After several years doing both, I feel no better qualified to defend myself than my years with GKR. However, because of one of the arts, I regularly spend time out of training due to injuries. I would estimate that I am injured badly enough not to be able to train for 3-4 weeks a year because of that art. I agree that GKR's policy of total non-contact does not serve its students well, but my other arts have no such policies, and as a result, I'm regularly sustaining the same injuries or worse, than those that I'm supposedly training to avoid. And as for the question about kumite, as anyone knows, the actual moment of contact is by far the smallest element of kumite. The work and movement and understanding that enables you to safely get into striking position is the main key. Body conditioning, muscle toning, fight psychology and conflict resolution are also elements, all of which are taught within GKR.

Alrighty then, let's do this properly.

This page contains a lot of misleading information. Admittedly, I have in the past posted comments that were swayed by opinion, I was merely reacting to the lies that were already there.

Now we seem to have whittled it down a bit and the article is looking a lot more informative. However, there is still some blatantly misleading comments coming in. The true nature and history of GKR is quite well known in the Australian and British martial arts communities. However, as with many self-styled martial arts "masters" and their followoers, providing instantly accessible links to said history and current nature is next to impossible. So mods and such, what to do? Falcore 02:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have delt with several other marshal arts groups over the years and although I study with GKR I will admit that having something to hit helps you build control of your punches and makes them more effective. I will also admit that most the Sensi's I have delt with other than the GKR ones either encorage their students to rush in to situations they may not be equiped to deal with, have taken the time to bad mouth all other marshal arts or have been very bad instructors that do not value their students. I admit that this is not true of all sensi's I have met from other styles but it is a view I gain too often to want to switch. Board breaking and using pads as targets both have been known regularly within my local Dojo's to help us get effective in our attacks with heavy focus on a good defencive skills being noticable in recent months. Shaker 2000 12:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latest Edit 24.2.06

"this includes sending instructors to Japan for more in-depth training with the different styles that GKR is comprised of"

Romoved this as it is false information. GKR sends a number of its Regional Managers and Zone Directors to Japan once every few years (and it has in reality only happened twice, so cannot be conveyed as a regular occurence)

RM and ZD are not public instructors, so it is incorrect to give the impression that a regular student will learn from an instructor who has been to the source, so to speak. The legitimacy of the association that liases with GKR on these trips has been questioned (by hostile sources, so I won't bother posting a link). It is clear however that this group is most definitely not one of the major Shotokan or Goju groups, on which GKR is based.

The criteria for being allowed onto the trip comes down solely to new student recruitment and equipment sales. That is, whichever RM's operate as the best salesmen in the previous year, will be awarded with a paid trip to Japan. Each trip only consists of 2 training sessions of a few hours each - hardly the intense advanced training that is alluded to by GKR management. Just to be clear, I have no problem with that, I just think it should be pointed out that the trip itself is in no way a karate training trip, or some vallant effort by GKR to pick up it's act.

I hate to say it to the poster above but my normal sensi's RM will regularly attend the training sessions run by his Sensis, acts as sick cover and also has run his own regular class from time to time. Shaker 2000 12:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

normal instructors are allowed to go and train with the goju masters in japan, some of my fellow instructors have gone, also the zone directors and shihan have only just come back from training with them(21/08/07). Pharaohsback. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.37.144.231 (talk) 21:28, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Instruction

This section has been flicking back and forth for a while now. I have alterred this sentence:

"GKR has Instructors who range from Sandan (3rd lvl Black belt) to as low as Green Belt (6th Kyu in the GKR system)

Teaching Public classes. It is a questionable practise to let a Green Belt (attained in around 12 months in the GKR system)"

Personal experience, and the experiences of many on online martial arts forums will confirm that that are a very large amount of Yellow belt instructors within the system. GKR itself states that yellow belt can be attained after a minimum 12 classes.


- I'd like to add that the club policy on this is that no student below 6th kyu is allowed to teach a class, I'm not saying it has not happend, just if it has that it is the actions of the Regional manager and not the clubs wishes.

okay, that's interesting... It is pretty well known that yellow belts are teaching classes...

No it's not, back up your claims if you are going to add them again. ZedZzizz 03:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yellow belts definitely do not teach classes. Having been in the system for 5 years I can confirm that statement is incorrect.

If I thought I would need it I would have saved a dated class instructor list with my name on it, along with my rank cert with it's date. I was teaching as a yellow belt, as many gkr instructors are. I am not going to change the article, I know how the page is intended to work. But the original article was a propaganda piece, so I changed it because we need to start somewhere...

...Surely "the club" must hear about this? i haven't been with GKR for a number of years now, and I still hear about the shonky goings on in some of our local GKR classes. How would it be possible that "the club" doesn't hear about this? The conclusion is that it is not possible. "the club" knows about it, and choses to continue the practice.

As a 4th Kyu Red Belt (almost brown) sensei with GKR, I would also like to put forth that in my 4-5 years with GKR, both as a student or as a sensei, I have never seen anyone under 6th Kyu has even do a warm up, much less run the class. And as for yellow belts, come on, these guys have been in the class only a couple of months they're still not saying "Hai" all the time, I doubt they would be confident enough to run a whole class.. --Deon555|talk|e|Review Me! :D 23:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree Deon. After 2 1/2 years with GKR I am yet to come across a 8th Kyu Instructor. Although I have come across a 6th Kyu Sensei, and soon to be a 7th Kyu Sempai. Regardless, 99.9% of the time I am being taught by 3rd Kyu-Shodan grades. ;)

I thought I made a decent job of writing the new GKR article...thanks to the person who added all the katas ;) Teisei666

im from the UK and yes there have been 8th kyu Instructors but if you check further they have come from other martials arts clubs ie: Shotakan, Goju Ryu, etc.. occasionally you might have found someone that slipped throught he net however this will is very rare and not the norm. i my self started teaching as a yellow belt however i have 12 years martial arts experience both in Goju Ryu and Shotakai and joined GKR due to the the fact that someone knocked on my door. orignally i was surprised when i found out how the Sensei system within GKR worked, but i remember back what one of my old Instructors once said to me. this was "any student of any age or grade can teach even if he/she has not been training long as for it is the interpriaction not the the technique you focus on" now as you can imaging this made me think! so i implied it into my training, so i asked student's with little experience if they could see if my stances or technique was flawed, and guess what %95 of the time they could always see something that i could work on. ive now achieved the grade of Shodan (Ho) i am no longer teaching however due to family commitments and my Instructor is at present a 4th Kyu but he can still see what i need to work on!. GKR will always have mine and my families support and im happy to state this.!!!!

Ok to all the above, I spoke with my Sensi and he spoke to his and the 'verbal' comunication came back that early on when GKR arrived in the uk those who came in from other Karate organisations would at yellow belt be allowed to become an instructor. They would still have had to atended the 'Sensi training' and at this point they beleve that this can happen still if an RM feels the need is there although normaly 6kyu in GKR system is insisted on befor any one starts the Sensi training and the year as a sempi. so most people have been in the style for 2 years before they are 'left to their own devices' with a class. Shaker 2000 12:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

My sensei who is now the RM of R25 uk had his first class at yellow belt, so it does happen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.37.144.231 (talk) 21:32, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I trained with this club/style for a short time a few years ago, our instructor did tell us that he was a blue belt training for red belt, I never heard of anyone of lower grades instructing, I do remember as a yellow belt leading the class warm up but it was only in the presence of an instructor, I also saw other yellow belts leading the warm-ups as well. I never thought of it as being wrong as an instructor was always present at the head of the class and I thought of it as a great confidence builder. 82.34.55.108 (talk) 16:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Almost Functional...

Who all thinks this is a funny sentence in the 'origins' section:

"Go Kan Ryu or GKR, is a style of karate mixing Shotokan and Goju together into one almost functional style."

Surely this is either a mistake or graffiti. I'd think that someone related to GKR would like to modify this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.157.3.96 (talk) 02:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

I don't think GKR got to be one of the largest karate styles in the world by being 'almost functional'. You're right, this is a terrible sentence. Wiki articles are meant to be informative, not biased. Withywindle 04:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yellow Belts certainly do teach classes as Sensai in the UK, I myself have trained under a yellow belt for 3 months and found that although technically I was a higher grade, the Sensai was able to competantly teach class and also point out any mistakes\ improvements in my technique 90.192.94.100 12:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok poster above 'who why where and when?' they could not have completed the training in that time and would not be at the minimum level. and besides you never sensi would never reveal it and it is consided bad manners to ask about it! Two of my Sensi were Blue when they became sempi 2 years on I know they are brown since one of them showed us his belt complaining that if he ever wore it it would not bend enough to tie up! Shaker 2000 12:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

I consider this relatively minor karate organization to be large enough (40,000+ members) to be notable. Kreb Dragonrider 16:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

considering the 55000 per week has last i heard grown to 60+ I would think that it is notable. since GKR is still growing and its membership is on the up I think that its page is justified!Shaker 2000 13:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tabulate

i tabulated the grades earlier, but think this:

Kyu / Dan Belt Minimum Classes Required
10th Kyu White Belt 0 Classes
9th Kyu White Belt, Yellow Tip 3 weeks, 6 Classes
8th Kyu Yellow Belt 3 weeks, 6 Classes
7th Kyu (ho) Yellow Belt, Orange Tip 6 weeks, 12 classes
7th Kyu Orange Belt 6 weeks, 12 classes
6th Kyu Green Belt 4 months, 36 classes
5th Kyu Blue Belt 5 months, 40 Classes
4th Kyu Red Belt 5 months, 40 Classes
3rd Kyu Brown Belt 6 months, 50 Classes
2nd Kyu Brown Belt, Black Tip 6 months, 50 Classes
1st Kyu Brown Belt, Double Black Tip 6 months, 50 Classes
Shodan Ho Provisional Black Belt 6 months, 50 classes
Shodan 1st Dan Black Belt 1 year, 100 classes
Nidan 2nd Dan Black Belt 2 years, 200 classes

would be a good idea. Feedback?

EDIT: also, my browser was playing up. If anyone could simplify the colour codes, i'd be most grateful. 15:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Umpajug (talk · contribs) 15:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Perfect Shaker 2000 13:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's good. Do it. Withywindle 04:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Done it! Should look ok... hopefully! lol. Andrew Marsden 10:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


Hey, just thought I'd suggest removing the colour coding of the belts. It makes some of the information in the table illegible and most people should be able to discern the colour from its name . If no objections, I'd like to change this within a couple of days. Tarrauko 10:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AKF Tournaments

I can't find any sources on the internet to back it up, but I know for a fact that some members of GKR's New South Wales State team have begun competing in AKF tournaments. (Ben Cunningham definitely, as well as a few others) 143.238.246.86 07:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Karadan

[edit] Controversies Section

The section headed "controversies" seems to have been "neutered" presumably by members of GKR. Many of the sub-headings do not describe anything controversial at all. Perhaps someone could detail what the controversies actually are surrounding GKR? Shinji nishizono 14:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The controversies Section almost seems more like it needs its heading changed to "Trivia". The only controversial point in the section is the first one about Adrian Sclanders. Tarrauko 10:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

From my own personal (very limited) experience with this club/style, the controversies really centred around the fact that many of the instructors were not Dan gradings. They wore a black and white belt which gave the impression that they may have been Dan gradings when they weren't. The other controversy is over the way they canvassed in local areas for business by actively going around and knocking on people's doors, I was 'recruited' in this manner. They defiantely gave me the impression that they were operating as a type of franchise, all equipment even the belts had to be purchased from them albeit the prices were (I thought) reasonably competitive. Although the clubs seemed to be ran well on the surface (I certainly didn't see or think otherwise) and the atmosphere was always friendly it is the quality of the instrcutors which seems the basis of the controversies more than anything else 82.34.55.108 (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Structure

As of present (August 2007), this article is all over the place. It is my intention, with the help of anybody who reads over this article, to move it up the rankings to at least a B grade article. For this to happen, the information must be well structured, neutral and informative.

What i believe needs to Change

Standards This section does not seem very encyclopedic, unless someone in the UK was applying for a job. I propose this section be deleted.

Controversies This section has material that does not seem very controversial. I only see one item in there that seems very controversial; the Adrian Sclanders incident. Possibly, if rewritten, the door-to-door recruitment process point could stay, so long as it can be referenced so as to why it is controversial. I propose that this section be trimmed of the information that is not so controversial.

Names I see a lot of "Kancho" Robert Sullivan and Sensei Gavin Samin in places. I think this detracts from neutrality, giving the overall appearance that the general public, as well as readers of this article should be referring to these people as such. I have also noted in places, references to just the words Shihan or Sempai. I propose that the first time these people are introduced in the article, they should be introduced as Robert Sullivan(Kancho), Gavin Samin(Sensei) etc. After that, they should be referenced only by their names.

Some other ideas i have include

  • Kata and Gradings sections should be sub-sections of a larger section "Curriculum"
  • All relevant information about the notable people listed in the article either be moved to a "Notable Karate-ka/Notable People" section, or create an "Organization" section, with information about the founder and instructors as sub-headings to this heading.
  • Origin heading should be expanded
  • use of an infobox from the Martial arts Project page

Minor Stuff

  • Naming inconsistencies in the kata section

Thanks for your time Tarrauko 11:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies, what now?

What is the current position in respect of controversies surrounding instructors/marketing. have GKR cleaned up their act? 82.34.55.108 (talk) 22:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)