Talk:Gilles Villeneuve

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Good article Gilles Villeneuve has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Gilles Villeneuve appeared on portal:Formula One as F1 Selected Article for July, 2006.

You can vote for the next selected articles at F1 Selected Articles.

Contents

[edit] Villeneuve alive when medics arrived?

I heard somewhere that he was still barely alive when the medical teams reached him, maybe could be worth researcing?

According the Donaldson biography, which is a pretty highly regarded book, he was not declared dead until 9:12 that evening and had been maintained on a life support machine up to that point. There were attempts to resuscitate him immediately after the accident, but Prof Sid Watkins is of the view that the outcome was inevitable once the accident occured. This pretty much fits with what the article currently says. 4u1e 09:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How do you pronounce his name?

Something like 'Geal (soft 'g', like 'generate') Veel - nerve' and camp up your French accent (Yes, I know, French-Canadian not the same as French!) Hope that helps, I don't know how that fancy phonetic notation works. If anyone does, they could add it to the article :) 4u1e
I've rather dubiously come up with this: ʒilə vilənœvə for pronunciation. Anyone know if that's right? 4u1e 21:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
No, the phonetic notation in the article is correct: ʒil vilnœv is the correct French-Canadian pronounciation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.87.230.199 (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
Good to know. I got the one used in the article with the help of some people on the help desk. Cheers. 4u1e 08:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Selected article

It has been suggested at Portal talk:Formula One that this article be used as a selected article. It is also suggested (by me, not by any higher authority) that the following work is needed before doing so:

  • Provide references
  • Tidying up structure with suitable headings
  • 'Family life' for example. The period of Gilles' early career was quite hard for his wife, and of course there is Jacques as well.
  • Probably split into something like:
Lead
Early and family life
Racing Career
Pre-Formula One (Snowmobile racing, anyone?)
Formula One
Death - Much of the current wording would end up in this section, or the next one
Legacy - Villeneuve has made it into racing folklore, so I think 'Legacy' is appropriate here. Wouldn't be for most drivers. Done 4u1e 06:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Refs etc Largely done? 4u1e 11 July
  • Consider whether the list of quotes is a suitable format for this article (personal view, here, so don't take that as gospel!)
  • Suggest it would be more suitable to move most of them to wikiquote (and then put the wikiquote box at the bottom of this page) and maybe keep a couple to illustrate the article. 4u1e 3 July 2006
  • Well, I've taken executive action on this one - the quotes were all in Wikiquote already, so I've deleted them from here. 4u1e 11 July 2006
  • Usual spelling, grammar and wikilink checks.
  • Expand lead to provide suitable draw for readers. Think I've covered this. 4u1e

Feel free to knock any items off that list, or provide justification as to why they are not needed. Cheers. 4u1e 6 June 2006

I would also say that some more pictures would be good. 4u1e 19:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

One of Villeneuve in a 312T3 added (Thanks again to Barry Boor) 4u1e 11 July 2006

The current intention is that this article should be brought up to Good Article status by 16 July. I likes a challenge. 4u1e 19:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Article also needs a summary table of results - anyone feel like knokcing one up, using the model from Mark Webber or Damon Hill? 4u1e 11 July 2006

Done. Cs-wolves 14:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Good work there Cs-wolves. I've been away for a few days, should have checked on that before setting my deadlines! :-D Give me 24 hours to have a look over it. Off the top of my head I'm still a bit concerned about NPOV (not from your work, but from the article as it was) and it probably still needs fuller references. I can sort those - I've got Donaldson's biography here. Maybe you can look at NPOV and I'll do the references and if we sort that out we can go on as selected article tomorrow night. Cheers 4u1e 22:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Museum?

Is there actually a Gilles Villeneuve museum near Ile Notre-Dame? I don't remember seeing one when I was there, it's not listed on the Parc Jean-Drapeau map (which includes Ile Notre-Dame), and the only reference to a Gilles Villeneuve museum I can find is in his hometown of Berthierville, far enough away from Montreal that it wouldn't be considered "near Ile Notre-Dame". --CanSpice 00:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

On that basis I've removed this bit, leaving only reference to the museum in Berthierville.

[edit] Selected Article

OK - I reckon this is pretty much there (Apologies for the delay over references!). I've put it on the portal as the 'Selected Article'. Well done to all those who contributed! I've also nominated it for Good Article status, which will probably take a couple of weeks to come through, judging by the backlog on the nominations page. Cheers! 4u1e 08:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

I have passed the article as a Good article as I felt it was an excellent read. With some extra work this could easily be made a featured article. Pascal.Tesson 02:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion of changes to Pre-F1

I don't normally so this, but I really feel that the changes made to the 'pre-Formula One' section recently did not benefit this article at all. I have reverted that section only to the version of around 25 August. There were some spelling and grammar errors, but I'm afraid that the worst thing was that the logic of the writing went completely. If anyone wants to go into I can cover it point by point. Always happy to discuss, either here or at my talk page.

I will work back in some of the extra information that had been added though. Cheers. --4u1e 17:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Watkins Glen 1979

I don't know which is correct, but I noticed that the page for Gilles states that he was eleven seconds faster than anyone else during wet qualifying at the above race whilst the page for the race states he was nine seconds faster. Knowing Gilles, it was probably a combination of the two! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mighty Antar (talk • contribs) 02:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

I've referenced it now, which helps :-) It is given as 11 seconds by Nigel Roebuck. I've not been involved in the 1979 race article, but the quote is worded differently and most likely comes from a different source (Road and Track). The probable answer is that one (or both) of the journalists got the figure slightly wrong in their notes and it's been carried over from there. If anyone has the full stats for that race, we could confirm either way.4u1e 19:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Journalist Richard Chartier says that it's 11 sec during the Sunday race, not during practice. http://www.monvolant.ca/article/20070505/MVCOURSE/70505013/1002/CPSPORTS BTW, the journalist has an interesting story, if it is true. Here is what he says about the Watkins Glen 1979 race:

Les essais du vendredi se déroulent au sec. Le lendemain, il pleut, mais on annonce sec pour dimanche, alors tout le monde reste dans les box puisque, de tout façon, les temps de la veille ne peuvent être battus pour la grille de départ. Tout le monde, donc, reste dans les box, samedi, sauf un : Gilles Villeneuve. Il en fait rire plus d’un à rouler d’une manière un peu dérisoire dans la flotte, affichant des temps sans intérêt. Mais surprise, le jour de la course, il pleut. Tandis que les voitures, une à une, partent en aquaplaning et s’écrasent dans le décor, Villeneuve contourne calmement les flaques – il ne les voit pas, il a simplement mémorisé où elles sont – et file sans ambage vers la victoire. Messieurs, échec et mât! Marcus wilby73 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Can you point out where Chartier says it's 11 seconds during the race? The only relevant bit I could see was the section you've given above, which doesn't give a figure for how much faster Villeneuve was, either in the wet session or in the race. Indeed it doesn't actually say he was faster (although he did win, which is a clue!). For those who can't read it, the interesting story is that Villeneuve (who won the race) 'calmly avoided the puddles - he didn't see them, he had simply memorised where they were - while other cars aquaplaned off the circuit'. 4u1e 06:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain it's not 11 seconds during the race. Nelson Piquet had the fastest lap of the race - see here. 4u1e 07:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

To recap the sources supporting the current version:

  • "On Friday, the rain was heavy enough all day that only a few cars even took the track, and fewer still made any serious attempt at a lap time. Of the six that did actually record a time, Villeneuve was fastest by over nine seconds! Scheckter, second fastest, thought he was mad, but was also quite in awe of the Canadian's performance in the conditions." Rob Walker (January, 1980). "21st United States Grand Prix: Muddier Matters". Road & Track, 104-107.
  • "...during the first afternoon of practice at Watkins Glen in 1979, when conditions were as bad as I have ever seen at a race circuit. In places the track was flooded, and only eight drivers ventured out. One of those who did was Scheckter, who was second fastest behind team mate Villeneuve. Eleven seconds behind..." Nigel Roebuck, Grand Prix Greats (1986) p.208 (This is the ref used in the article at present.
  • "The patented Villeneuve display began on Friday when the track was soaked and few cars even ventured out of the pits. In fact, most drivers thought the flooded tarmac was simply undriveable." The section goes on to quote Denis Jenkinson, Nigel Roebuck and Jeff Hutchinson - including Roebuck's comment (presumably from the same notes) that Villeneuve was eleven seconds faster, with Scheckter second. It goes on to say "his car was less manageable on dry Michelins and on Saturday Gilles's best efforts produced only third on the grid behind Jones and Piquet". Gerald Donaldson, Gilles Villeneuve (1989, 2003) pp.203-4.

Although the details vary in the number of cars and the size of the gap, all accounts agree that the wet session was on Friday and that Villeneuve was fastest by a large margin over Scheckter. I note that Donaldson very probably based his account on Roebuck's and Walker's versions. Roebuck was present on the day, by his account. The others may or may not have been. 4u1e 08:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

By contrast Chartier says that the wet session was on Saturday and that no-one else went out on track. He does not offer an opinion on Villeneuve's speed. 4u1e, 9 May 2007, 09:55

[edit] Cause of death

Le Journal de Montréal reports today that a mechanic failure on the Ferrari car---the accelerator being stocked down at full speed---was the cause of Gilles Villeneuve going so fast at this portion of the race in the deadiest round. Also, the same journal reports that the Ferrari team would have forgotten to put a metal plaque underneath the seat, a plaque needed to solidity the grip of the safety belt. The lack of the plaque weakened the grip of the safety belt which failed to tie Villeneuve to his seat and thus avoid the deadly injuries that he suffered from his falling down the ground after being projected so high and so fast.

Okay, I found the article here: http://www2.canoe.com/sports/nouvelles/archives/2007/05/20070508-094707.html

Here is an excerpt:

Gilles était donc dans sa dernière tentative pour devancer Pironi, tandis que Jochen Mass, avec sa March, roulait au ralenti à l'entrée d'un virage après son dernier tour rapide.

Le Québécois a été éjecté avec son siège, ce qui l'a tué sur le coup (...) Plus tard, on a su qu'on avait oublié de mettre une plaque sous son siège afin de solidifier les attaches des ceintures de sécurité.

Il y a cinq ans, lors du 20e anniversaire, nous avions dévoilé la cause de cet accident : un accélérateur coincé, tout simplement. De son vivant, Gaston Parent n'avait confié cette information qu'à quelques personnes. «À l'époque, j'avais signé des documents de confidentialité avec monsieur Ferrari concernant les véritables causes de l'accident ainsi qu'une renonciation d'engager des poursuites afin d'accepter, au nom des héritiers de Gilles, des avantages financiers, nous avait-il dit. Après 20 ans, il est temps que la vérité soit connue.» Cela n'a rien changé à la triste fin, sauf qu'il n'a pas été victime d'une erreur de pilotage, mais bien d'une défaillance mécanique.

Now that's interesting! I'm out of time now, but will come back and have a closer look at this later today. Cheers. 4u1e 08:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Couple of quick comments:

  • Looks good to include. Quick translation (don't hammer me on total accuracy, please!): "Five years ago, on the 20th anniversary [of Villeneuve's death], we revealed the cause of the accident: simply a stuck accelerator. In his lifetime, Gaston Parent [Parent was Villeneuve's manager, for want of a better term] only trusted this information to a few people. 'At the time, I signed confidentiality documents with Mr Ferrari concerning the true causes of the accident, as well as an agreement not to pursue [legal action] in order to obtain financial benefits for Gilles' inheritors. After 20 years, it is time that the truth be known.' This does not change the sad outcome, except that he was not a victim of driver error, but of a mechanical failure."
  • One quibble with the account of the crash in that article - it's a bit inconsistent about the seat, stating in one place (correctly according to other sources) that Villeneuve was still strapped to the seat when he was thrown out of the car. Elsewhere it seems to suggest that there was a problem with the straps holding Villeneuve into his seat.
  • Not to be Francophobe, but it would be best if we can find an original source for this story in English somewhere, in the interests of making it as accessible as possible on the English language wiki. If we can't, then obviously we'd use the French language one. 4u1e, 9 May 2007, 10:40

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Gilles Villeneuve Stamp.jpg

Image:Gilles Villeneuve Stamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 22:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)