Talk:Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette

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No infobox-- but whether to use one should be carefully considered by the workgroups. Wikifying the references might also be helpful.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 11:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 07:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Proposal  : Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette → Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette
Rationale :   Lowercasing noble rank, as with other articles on French nobility.
Proposer : David Kernow 15:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting and discussion

Please add  * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~".

  • Support as proposer. David Kernow 15:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

family? he had children -- he must have been married. Wolfman 03:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, he married Marie-Adrienne-Françoise de Noailles, daughter of Jean-Paul-François, 5e duc de Noailles. I don't have the date. --Tkinias 10:21, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Article should move to his name (Gilbert Du Motier, marquis de La Fayette), since he is not the only marquis de La Fayette in history. There's no reason, since we have redirects, to keep it where it is. It should also be spelled correctly. See the Bibliothèque nationale de France's card catalog for the correct form of the name. --Tkinias 10:28, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think this currently follows the rule of using the most commonly used name in English. Always a tricky call when that is different than the person's actual name, but in this case the actual name is so obscure that I bet that not one English-speaker in a thousand would recognize it (in fact, I'd venture that not one French-speaker in a hundred would identify just "Gilbert Du Motier"), and there is no other famous Marquis de La Fayette. Of course, whatever we choose, all likely variants should be added as redirects. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:12, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
I would argue that my suggestion would not violate the rule, since it is not replacing the commonly-known name with one less known, but expanding it to include his name as well as his noble title. I wouldn't suggest simply using Gilbert Du Motier, but Gilbert Du Motier, marquis de La Fayette. I also note that Britannica has him under his full name, not simply his title. --Tkinias 20:42, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There was another famous Lafayette, as mentioned in the section Early life, who fought along side Joan of Arc. Josh-Levin@ieee.org 04:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

Thanks for the move, john. I think he should be under La Fayette, though, as that is the standardized spelling of the title, and is AFAICT universally used for all other members of the family. --Tkinias 09:13, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Crap damn . I was just fixing the redirects when I noticed the downcasing of Du. According to the Bibliothèque nationale de France catalogue, it's Du Motier, with a capital D (odd, I know, but I'm not going to argue with the BNF!) I can't move it there, though; the system won't do it. --Tkinias 09:34, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Britannica uses the small "d" (I checked before moving it)...I don't think it's a terribly big deal. john k 16:21, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I was taught in school that the question of whether or not do capitalize articles and prepositions that are part of personal names depends on the context. These include "du", as well, as "van", "von", "de", "la", etc. If the article or preposition is the first part of the name in its context, it is capitalized. If it is preceded by another part of the person's name, it is lower case. Hence, you might begin a sentence about a noted German-American rocket scientist with either "Von Braun" or "Werner von Braun". Very few people seem to follow this usage. Josh-Levin@ieee.org 17:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

This is ridiculous. He is known universally as Marquis de Lafayette (See use common terms). [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality/talk]] 02:09, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

The reason for the move was to avoid ambiguity with other other holders of the title (whom I am planning on writing up), and to be in conformance with the standards set up for nobility (see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)#Other non-royal names). —Tkinias 04:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
But see also #6: "In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name. Create redirections or disambiguations for other plausible links." [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality/talk]] 04:31, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
This is a case where it appears a more specific guideline conflicts with a general guideline; furthermore, #6 does not apply at all to French names—it addresses solely "Non-European and non-Western" names and titles. Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, known almost universally as simply "the Duke of Wellington", is under his full name and title, in compliance with Wikipedia naming conventions. Similarly, the Black Prince (AFAIK the only person ever known by that nickname) is at Edward, the Black Prince. If you disagree with this, you might join the discussion on naming conventions, but on this point there seems to be something of a consensus there.
There is also a strong precedent that pages with names like Marquis de Lafayette are pages describing the title and listing its holders (see, e.g., Duc d'Orléans). —Tkinias 04:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I totally agree with Tkinias. I would say more, but I couldn't put it more eloquently or more simply. Let's just leave it at that. --SimpleBeep 04:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, let's keep the full name for this page. Matthieu 17:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freemasonry

Lafayette was a prominant Freemason in both his home country and aknowledged and respected by American Freemasons (1), I was dissapointed to find no aspect of that side of his life covered in this article. Jachin 06:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

All that particular citation says is that he was a Mason and was warmly greeted by his fellow Masons when he toured the U.S. in the 1820s. If someone can document that he either affected Masonry or affected the world through Masonry, or that Masonry had a particular effect on his thinking or actions, then it belongs. Otherwise, it is no more notable than a present-day figure being a member of the Masons… or the Sons of Italy, or the ACLU, or even the RIAA. Most people have many such affiliations; they should show up in the article only when significance can be demonstrated. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:27, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I see that Category:Freemasons has now been added to the article. I will not unilaterally remove it, but consider this a request for a "second" on the suggestion of removing it. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:22, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the real question is whether Category:Freemasons is a worthwhile category. I'm not precisely sure. But I think 18th century freemasonry is quite different from 20th century freemasonry. While everybody who belonged to a masonic organization in the 20th century certainly shouldn't be so categorized, being a freemason was a considerably more significant thing back in the 18th century. So I'm not sure why it's inappropriate to include Lafayette in such a category. john k 05:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
You are correct that the Freemasons were far more significant at that date than they are now, but I'm still not sure if it's useful to mention membership unless (as I said above) we have some evidence that the person "either affected Masonry or affected the world through Masonry, or that Masonry had a particular effect on his thinking or actions". But I'll drop the subject at this point. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Please have a look on Les Neuf Sœurs and/or, if you can read a little french, on this website and I guess you'll find such an evidence. Sincerely. --82.227.42.76 18:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC) (from french Wikipedia).

Freemasonry is a category that includes several groups and organizations in numerous nations across the planet, all of which claim descent from the original European organization. In the USA, Freemasonry has two primary groups, the Free and Accepted Masons, and the Prince Hall Masons. There are others, and even the F&AM ahnd PH Masons have Federal structures with Grand Lodges in most if not all 50 States and the Districts and Territories. The point is that Freemasonry is clearly a Category that should be inclusive, NOT exclusive. - 18:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a statue of LaFayette in the French Quarter Museum (or whatever is left of it) honoring him as a Free Mason. This has to be checked since Katrina may have destroyed that building.

[edit] Uncritical biography

I find this article somewhat biased in favour of La Fayette, describing him solely as a great friend of liberty and a free press. For example, it is quite clear that La Fayette went very far to prevent Jean-Paul Marat from publishing some of his essays and also in opposing the Jacobins and the club des Cordeliers generally. The article should also reflect these actions during La Fayette's command of the Parisian police prior to the fall of the kingdom in 1792. Maybe the pre-marxist views of Marat are not well received in many quarters, but La Fayette waged a fight that violated the freedom of the press - at least in Marat's case - and he could be considered a contra-revolutionary royalist to a certain extent. All of which ended with his condemnation as a traitor for trying to uphold the monarchy against the will of the National Assembly. Sir48-Denmark

I agree, but have something to add as well; this articles reference to the Champ-de-Mars Massacre as the "supressing of a riot" is not only biased, but unfactual. The truth is this (from the French wikipedia article on the Champ-de-Mars--roughly translated):
The Cordeliers' petition of the 15th of July, 1791 was taken to the alter of the Patrie which had been raised for 14 July, 1790. A crowd assembled there to sign the petition, demanding the end of the monarchy and asking that France become a republic. The Constituent Assembly ordered them to disperse. The Mayor of Paris decreed martial law which institution was signaled by red flags. This law permitted the forces to be ordered to use their arms. La Fayette tried in vain to disperse the crowd, but Bailly gave the order to fire on the people, [which he did;] there were 50 dead and hundreds of wounded.
So, it wasn't exactly a riot, and whether following orders or not, he fired on an unarmed crowd. Whether one thinks this is excusable or not, it is a white-washing of the historical personnage not to mention such an incident. --Montagnarde1794 06:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In agreement: I've rewritten this section to expand the information on constitutional monarchists like Lafayette, and I've given a summary of the "massacre of the Champ de Mars". --Linden Salter 00:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Swords or La Fayette

I have heard that when La Fayette was in the colonies that he gave out 3 decorational swords as a sign of honor. I know that he gave one to George Washington and one to Daniel Shays but I do not know who he gave the third sword to and would like to get any information on it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.67.234.72 (talk • contribs) 10 Nov 2005.

[edit] Last Words

The article states La Fayette's last words were "Je sous ve toute ou." I'm inclined to delete this as there's no citation for it and the French is gibberish. (My translation is "I under ve all or". "Ve" isn't in my Petit Robert dictionary -- is it a misspelling or an archaic word?) A google search turns up a different "last words" (http://www.trivia-library.com/a/famous-last-word-part-2.htm). Geffb 05:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Je me sousviens du toutou" ?
"Je suis venu trop tôt" ?
"Je vous dit tout de go" ?

He would have been expected to mumble, of course.

(Lunarian 18:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC))


I think it is: "Je vous suis tout ouïe". But yeah, it seems butchered, I'm not sure it's archaic French at all. Matthieu 17:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Geese you guys, for a bilingual like me i almost puked when i saw this. By the way "go" does not exist in french. Ouie is an expression which translates to "ouch".Fheo 23:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

What? "ouïe" is the hearing sense in modern french and the expression ( still used currently in french ) "je suis toute ouïe" means "My ears are wide open, I can hear what you have to say". 90.11.50.49 (talk) 14:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clearer Opening Paragraph

The opening should have a sentence or two about his actual roles and accomplishments in the American and French Revolutions respectively so that the most important bits don't have to be laboriously culled from the more detailed paragraphs. Youdontsmellbad 22:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

How 'bout "What happenned to you France? You used to be cool. Take this guy for example."--Murphoid 03:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to Murphoid's comments: I know you're just joking, but I don't think that type of introduction would be acceptable for an encyclopedia. Not to be rude, though, it is funny!
And yes, I agree that there should be a bit more, but not much. There is already mention, and it suggests that one should read on. Maybe that's enough, maybe it's not. Personally, I think there shouldn't be such a fuss. --SimpleBeep 04:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


The "slavery" information is too vague and has some inaccuracies. For example, while the majority of the slaves who lived at Mount Vernon at the end of Washington's life belonged to the Custis estate (Martha Washington's first husband), the proportion was fairly close to half. And, Martha Washington did not free her own slaves after Washington's death. She did not own slaves in her own right; therefore, she could not have freed them. Rather, she renounced her life interest in George Washington's slaves a year after his death, which led to their being freed--according to the provisions of his will--early. It is true that both Lafayette and Washington grew to dislike the institution of slavery, though for different reasons and with different results. Washington actually pursued the idea of freeing both the he owned outright and purchasing, with the intention to free, the Custis slaves. He had a two pronged strategy. He hoped to rend his Mount Vernon lands to English farmers who would pay him rent, ensuring a continued income stream, and employ the freed slaves. In order to raise funds to purchase the Custis slaves, he hoped to sell the lands he owned in th western territories. Neither plan was successful. He found no takers to either rent the Mount Vernon farms or purchase the western land. Lafaytte, who as a Frenchman, did not own slaves in his home country, purchased a plantation in French Guyana, with its slaves, where he practiced a system of education and gradual emancipation. For more infomation on these issues, see the George Washington papers at the Library of Congress and the University of Virginia.


[edit] Is this the worst article on Wikipedia?

I hate to say this, but I have never read a Wikipedia entry in worse condition than this one. Can we get someone who is neither attached to American founder myths nor French revolution myths to redo it? 89.49.65.139 21:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

However after looking over my notes of this website i soon came to realize that the chronological accuracy is awful. In certain parts it states that in 1812 Lafayette helped in the French Revolution. Im sorry but im an expert on French history and the revolution took place in the 1790's. This article is a disgrace to wikipedia! Fheo 23:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honorary Citizenship

When Winston Churchill was made an Honorary Citizen of the United States in 1963, I recall the news media stating that this was the first such grant "since LaFayette". I also recalled that Lafayette's honorary citizenship given him during a visit to the U.S. commemorating the 50th anniversary of Independence, and that it was special in that it carried over to all living descendants.

Lafayette was granted honorary citizenship more recently, in 2002, without any mention of his descendants.

I did a little more digging, and found a three web pages ([1], [2], [3]) the first of which states:

Demonstrating the gratitude of the American nation, Congress proclaimed Lafayette an honorary citizen in 1824 and invited him to tour the U.S. as its first official guest.

Another web site ([4]) says:

The Marquis named his son George Washignton (sic) Lafayette. His direct descendants, members of the Chambrun family, are honorary U.S. citizens.

Well, my memory wasn't totally accurate (LaFayette left the U.S. before 1826), but it seems that it was better than that of Congress. Josh-Levin@ieee.org 17:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have added, to the main article, his 1824 grant of Honorary Citizenship.

[edit] University

I think we should point out that there is a university called Lafayette in Easton, PA(for all you sad souls who dont know were Easton is, its near Allentown, for all you sad souls who dont know were Allentown is, get some geography lessons). The coolest town in all of PA.Fheo 23:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Sections

I made a bunch of edits to try to clean up the early sections, which need a lot of work. I think it's improved, but what it really needs is some substantive beefing up of the American Revolution section, which relies too much on long quotations and doesn't give enough detail of what he actually did in America. Feel free.

--Eldred 15:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Masons

However, as Washington's letters show, by the end of the war, since some of the worst traitors like Benedict Arnold were masons, focus turned to the proven loyal in his Society of the Cincinnati, of which one of the biggest Chapters was in France.

Besides being terribly written & uncited, I can't see why this belongs in an article on La Fayette. I haven't been involved in this article lately, so I'm hesitant to delete unilaterally, but I'd welcome deletion by someone who has been active in it. - Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


Tradition has it that, with General Washington's sponsorship[citation needed], Lafayette had been raised as a Master Mason in 1777 or 1778 shortly after his arrival in America.

We already know the masons are a powerfull, influential and sometimes charitable organization. Please cite this statement, above, using primary sources. NO popular-opinion-sophistry, hear-say or tradition please!
Also, nowhere on General Lafayette's birth certificate, grave stone or anywhere in his signed letters do we find Lafayette's name written as 2 words. (i.e. as in "La Fayette")
What does this say about some modern historians who continue to revise his name in this way?
--4.156.117.22 20:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


I would never apply one of those lazy and vulgar "cleanup" notices, but a beginning might be made here by fixing errors of bolding and italics, by dropping the genealogy of Lafayette's descendents to the bottom, and cleaning it of genealogy-hobbyist jargon. --Wetman (talk) 08:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC) ==

[edit] Did he draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen?

Just curious, this link http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-DeclarRMNC.html seems to say that Emmanuel Sieyès drafted it, as well as this wikipedia entry for Sieyes. -Maimone (talk) 03:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Usage of the title "Marquis"

I've recently been involved in a discussion (here) with a user who suggests that referring to Lafayette as "Marquis de Lafayette" amounts to a slur and is something to be avoided assiduously. The basis for this is Lafayette's renunciation of his title in 1790, and the fact that detractors subsequently belabored the title to try to harm him. I see no evidence at all that usage of the title in modern times is anything other than an acknowledgment of fact, but I just wanted to give others a chance to comment. Thanks! Huwmanbeing ☀★ 10:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. The title might have been used at the time in a negative fashion, but from our perspective now, he was at one time the "Marquis de Lafayette", and I don't see how the use of the title now has any negative impact on the person, especially when (in the article) the situation is explained. Former presidents of the United States retain the title "Mr. President" even though they no longer fill that role; granted, I don't know of any that have renounced that title, but we now refer to past presidents that have passed away as "presidents", even though they were not presidents throughout their whole lives, and in most cases were not active in that role when they died. Omnedon (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name spelling issues

The article is called "Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette".

The text opens with "Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert-DuMotier Lafayette".

  • He's called Lafayette throughout. Is this because when he renounced his La Fayette title, he adopted the one-word surname Lafayette?
  • "du Motier" seems to have been his personal surname at birth, but it looks like it became part of his 7-barrel given name. Is this correct? Or should the opening para start with "Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert DuMotier Lafayette"? -- JackofOz (talk) 14:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The naming issue is explained in the article under the heading Name and family. Over the last three years the article has been moved once in each direction, from La F to Laf and back again. Since the article pays proper attention to both names that are still in actual use, I suggest we leave it the way it is. In my opinion, it is more important that we track how people refer to him in print than to obey all of his wishes. EdJohnston (talk) 02:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation help

I am in contact with a professional voice actor who is trying to record a spoken version of George Washington and he wants to hear someone pronounce "Marquis de La Fayette". If anyone would be willing to call him up or even leave a voice mail with the proper pronunciation, please email me and I will send you his contact info. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 18:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)