Talk:Gilbert Levine

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[edit] Sir??? Gilbert Levine

OK, what's going on here? Since when does a papal/pontifical knighthood entitle the recipient to be known as "Sir"? I've done some research and can find (a) no mention of such a title in the external links to the papal Orders of Knighthoods, and (b) no other papal knight who uses "Sir", unless such a title came from an honour in the British system. (Btw, even if Levine had been given an honorary British knighthood, being a U.S. citizen he still wouldn't be entitled to call himself Sir Gilbert.) -- JackofOz 04:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pope Benedict XVI's Use of "Sir"

Pope Benedict XVI referred to Levine as "Sir" in this July 29, 2005 speech for that year's World Youth Day in Köln [1]...it's in German, but if you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see the words "Sir Gilbert Levine" in the last paragraph, thanking those involved in the performance of the Missa Solemnis.

MidnightMarauder 17:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I came across that link in my research for this question. Call me a heretic if you like, but I still question the Pope's authority to unilaterally decree that a person is now to be known as "Sir". That title is a British title, not one that has ever been associated with pontifical knighthoods. To be consistent, all papal knights should now be "Sir"s, but afaik Levine is the only one. This appelation given to Gilbert Levine surely has to be an example of Benedict XVI's odd Germanic sense of humour, that's gone awry by being mistakenly interpreted as a serious official statement. Someone hasn't been doing their homework, methinks. -- JackofOz 14:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with JackofOz. No matter what the Pope says in a random speech, the rules of chivalry are the rules of chivalry (in Rome as in the UK), and no pontifical knighthood allows its recipient to use the British title "Sir". Please allow me to summarize: pontifical knighthood - PAPAL STATE; British title "Sir" - UNITED KINGDOM (i.e., different country to Papal State); Gilbert Levine is a US citizen - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (i.e., different country to Papal State and United Kingdom). Therefore, anyone, especially an American, who adopts a British title because he/she has received a papal honor is PRETENTIOUS and WRONG. I am sure Mr Levine (this is his proper American title by the way) would ever stoop so low... -- piersbertrand 12:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
What would be "pretentious and wrong" would be to disrespect the Pope (and his Church, and its 1 Billion + adherents) who bestowed the honor, by NOT using the title which the Pontiff conferred. In addition to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, Maestro Gilbert Levine has been referred to officially as "Sir Gilbert" by these Roman Catholic institutions: in the Roman Curia - the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity, the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialog, the Prefecture of the Pontifical Household, the Vatican Press Office, as well as: the Archdioceses of Baltimore, Cologne, Krakow, and Washington; the Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh; the Metropolitan Council and the Prior of Cologne Cathedral; and the Knights of Columbus, inter alia. MidnightMarauder (talk) 04:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Given that Levine is referred to as Sir Gilbert Levine in many places, including his orchestra's own literature, we have to acknowledge that the title is actually being used, however inappropriate it may be. What I most strenuously question, though, is why, of the probably thousands of papal knights out there, has the title "Sir" only been given to this one particular knight and no others. That was the basis of my question. I don't question the Pope's right to decree titles wherever he wants - he is the head of state of a sovereign country, after all. But where's the consistency? Where's the formal declaration of the establishment of the title; and if there were one, why does it apply to Levine alone, and not all the others? Why isn't this seen as a slap in the face of all the "non-Sir" papal knights? I mean absolutely no disrespect to Jewish people, but if the Church is going to make a special title that applies to one and only one papal knight, wouldn't a Catholic have precedence over a non-Catholic? It was seen as an extraordinary honour for a Jewish person to given a papal knighthood at all, let alone going the extra step of calling him "Sir". I still maintain that this was either a joke or a mistake on the part of Benedict XVI, but it's been taken at face value, very naively, and misinterpreted extremely literally. We also have to consider other cases where "Sir" is used inappropriately, and ensure we're being consistent. The most obvious example is Bob Geldof. He was given an honorary British knighthood; honorary, because he's not a British subject or a citizen of a Commonwealth realm, but a citizen of Ireland. He gets to use KBE after his name, but not to call himself "Sir Bob". Now, vast numbers of people do in fact call him "Sir Bob", inappropriately. Our article, however, calls him Mr Bob Geldof KBE, and we point why he's not entitled to "Sir", while also acknowledging that he is in fact often referred to as "Sir Bob", in many cases by people who should know better. So, why can't we adopt exactly the same approach with Mr Levine? Many sources do refer to him as Sir Gilbert, but we don't have to just passively accept that as his formally correct title. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Further, as User:Yopie points out here, "Sir" is a British title, given by the British monarch to British subjects etc; it doesn't even apply to non-subjects of the monarch who get honorary knighthoods from the British monarch. The Holy See is not a British institution, and does not even use English as an official language afaik, so where does the entirely English title "Sir" come from? How would it apply (hypothetically) to a papal knight from France, Germany, Spain, Croatia, Poland, Portugal ...? It wouldn't. Which is exactly why it's wrong for Mr Gilbert Levine to carry this title. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)