Talk:Gift of Men
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I merged the "Struggles to comprehend the Gift of Men" section into the "Avoidance of the Gift of Men" section, because 1) they are really two sides of the same coin, and 2) the title of that section was really long and unwieldy for a one paragraph section. --Adanadhel 22:31, 31 January 2007
[edit] Arwen and Aragorn's Dilemma
I have a strange question. I have not seen it explained in any article and a clarification may be necessary to be included somewhere for fools like me. Maybe one of you guys will help me clear this up. Arwen was actually immortal and somehow she was able to choose to die. That is not the issue I want to stress. What I'm thinking is that being an elf (or half-elf somehow, for those who just thought of correcting me) she doesn't have the Gift of Men (I think). Elves that were slain, had died by ill-chance, or by the wearing from the passing of the centuries, still remain bound to the World and so their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos. Arwen was not slain and did not die from ill-chance, but 'chose' to die. Where would her spirit be going? Men on the other hand, no matter how they die, leave the Circles of the World into a non-physical place unknown even to the Valar. This means that Arwen chose a mortal life to be with Aragorn and not live "forever" without him, but when they died, instead of staying together somehow, it seems to me they don't even go to the same place! Arwen's spirit would still be bound to the World and stay hanging around while Aragorn would not even be in the same dimension. Unless it is somehow different when she actually 'chose' to die. I wonder if the same thing happened, or what actually happened, to Beren and Luthien. RayLast (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Rowe's edits of the Gift_of_Men Tolkien page
(wikification; headers should be lowercase, per WP:MOS; removed POV statements (article shouldn't express a point of view ("this author")); formatting footnote)
Just so you know, I am the original author of the "spiritual view..." section of this page, and the first paragraph of the next section. I hope you have some appreciation for the quality of the writing.
I don't mind refinements to the work, by fellow Tolkien enthusiasts, but I dislike arbitrary edits by anyone who appears to be a "tourist". Your edits REMOVED a key insight about the nature of how evil entered the Tolkien world through weaving of incompatible themes in the original myth of the world being created through themes of the great music.
Are these comments REALLY that bad? ...
(It is the interpretation of this author that there can be no damaging of the themes as happened in the first Great Music, when competing wills created the first marring of Arda, and sowed the seeds of evil.)
(*) Stories abound in "The Silmarillion" of the stark choices that some have had to make when their intrinsic nature as a member of a particular race came into conflict with the finality of the Gift. See the stories of Beren and Luthien, Elrond and Elros, and Earendil. Also see the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the Lord of the Rings. These stories might confer additional insights for the interested reader.
After all, the whole idea of discussing Tolkien's "Gift of Men" (ie. WHY was the race of men 'doomed to die') is itself an act of interpretation, ie. a Point of View.
If you must edit, do NOT remove information for dogmatic reasons; remove information only if its incorrect or does not add anything to the article. Remove only as a last resort!
To satisfy your peeve about POV, I will re-add this information in a more 3rd person way, when I have time.
--SanjaySingh 20:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Was Smeagol a hobbit?
Just wonder where the information that Smeagol is a hobbit comes from. I have always read that Smeagol and his people could be related to hobbits, but I do not remember and exact statement that they are hobbits. ColinMarble 05:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Smeagol was a hobbit... as Tolkien clearly states in Letter #214 and other places. --CBD 23:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
