User talk:Giano/The Winter Palace

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I am very conscious writing this page that it is a very important subject to all those who lived and live in the former Russian Empire. I have been around Wikipedia long enough to know that those editors all have differing views on various events in Russian history. I have left off writing this page for that reason for a long time, in the hope one of the (here is the first problem - I was educated like many in the west to label them all "Russians" no matter where they come from) former citizens of the USSR would write it.

What I'm trying to say, very badly, is that the Winter Palace, architecturally, is very repetitive in its design, you can see that by looking at it - it is huge but there is not a lot one can say about it beyond a few hundred words. Thus, there is not enough to make this into the page it deserves to be, without it also being a political history - the treasures should all be covered at the Hermitage page - I sounded out views on a merge and it was not wanted [1]- so without immense details of the contents - we are left only with events and people, which is no problem if they are documented correctly. I've taken this into user space, so that if I make a huge mistake, one of you can pop up on the talk page and say "Giano, you are a daft bastard - what are you saying there?" also you may have ideas, knowledge of legends, stories, which I, and the rest of us in the west have never heard about, and hopefully lots of fotos - what I'm saying is, I don't want to tread on any toes, and if I make a mistake it is ignorance not an intent to offend, and this may happen because political events have to pertain directly to the palace, so it's always going to be a sketchy view, and I learnt my history from an American point of view - which may not co-incide with yours. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Basically. I need some help here! - to keep this page completely NPOV. For example: I always thought it was the sick son that caused the Empress to withdraw, from just researching this I see she had spurned St Pete's before even her first daughter was born. You're the guys with the knowledge. I'm not sure as a page if it will work, but there is only one way to find out - You can swear at me, and put me right, but let's not let this get into mainspace with any huge mistakes or POV that will be fought over later. Opinions please. Giano (talk) 19:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes for the page

• Image:Télipalota.jpg The image shows the palace after the attempte assasination of Alexander II by Stephan Khalturin.

[2] This site contains a lot of information at odds with the reference books, I'm using. (a) Nicholas II and family spent a lot of time at the WP, the ref books say they did not. (b) The creation of the wall, and the gardens within, the site says it was Alexandra keeping people back, the ref books say the wall and gardens were built in the 1880s - long before Alexandra arrived on the scene - any body know the truth?

[edit] Identify a room a win a prize!

The piano nobile of the Winter Palace: 3=White Drawing room of Alexandra Feodorvna 4 = Malachite Room; 5=Concert-Hall; 6-Nicholas Hall; 7=Avant-salle;8 = Jordan Staircase,watercolor;9-Field-Marshal Hall; 10 = Small Throne Room; 11 = Amorial Hall; 12 = Military Gallery; 13 = St. George's hall; 14 = The Small Hermitage; 15 = New Hermitage; 16 = The Grand Church; 17 = Alexander Hall; 20-White Hall; 21=Golden Drawing Room;22-Crimson cabinet; 23 = Boudoir of Empress Maria Alexandrovna; 24=Classroom; 25=Study-Bedroom; 26 = The Rotonda;28=Great (Arab) Dining Room; 31 = River Neva; 32 = Courtyard garden; 33 = Palace square; 34 = Staff of the CCorpus of Guards (currently Staff of Leningrad Military District; 35 = West Garden; 36=His Majesty Own Staircase, Now October Staircase; 37-Apollo Hall; 39 = Principal Entrance; 40? = Winter Garden; 41=Dark Corridor; 42? Dressing Room of Alexandra Feodorovna; 43=Pompei (Small) Dinner Room. Please only link to non-copyright Wikipedia images. No external links. Thanks Giano (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Help is needed Identifying rooms of the palace - all help welcome! Feel free to add any room you know! When it's completed this will be a "clicky map" hopefully leading to as many pictures of rooms as possible!

We especially need to locate because commons has images. (these are my identification so they may be wrong):

• The Amorial Hall (says here [3] it's next to S Throne Room) so could be 12. (damn we have two 12s)

• This room, possibly the private dining room
• foot of the Jordan staicase?? or a chapel?
• Image:CornersalonWinterpalace.jpg think this is room number 1, The private corner drawing room, it's on a corner, its the only unspoken corner in the private apartments and all windows and doors are in correct places - what do you think Alex. Giano (talk) 13:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  It is certainly this corner of the building - we can see Neva and Admiralty but according to the [4] the Nicholas I suite was on the second floor. Thus, it should be just above our 1.

Alex, I'm concerned about the identifiation of the 3, the Aleaxandra's drawing room, it shows it with a bay window, there are no bay windows facing the Neva. Giano (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned too. [5] says that the most elegant were the apartments of Alexandra Feodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia) on the first floor faced to Neva and Admiralty. Only the Malachite Room (our 4) survived. За Малахитовой гостиной открывался ряд личных покоев Александры Федоровны: Столовая, расписанная по мотивам фресок, раскопанных в Помпеях, в Италии, изящные Гостиные, Спальня, уютный Будуар, романтический Зимний Садик с журчащим фонтаном и экзотическими растениями, изысканная и роскошная Ванная комната, оформленная в мавританском стиле, словно напоенная пряными ароматами Востока. Behind the Malachite room there was a row of the priviate rooms for Alexandra Feodorovna: Pompei Dining room (This is a small room left to 28, it is notable as the place of arrest of the Temporal Government), The elegant Drawing Rooms, Bedroom, Cosy Boudoir, romantic Winter Garden and the elegant and extensive Bathroom in Mauritian style. I have assumed that maybe, just maybe the author named them in order starting from Malachite Room. I guess I was wrong. Then I feel this is the limit of googling we have to ask somebody who knows Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Then if it's the floor above that is no problem we just say (floor above) Pompei Dining room, means neoclassical, so could well be our bombed room, as that is neoclasical and it was a dining room that was bombed. I bet Ghirlandajo knows, or can find out. The second floor is no problem, if you look at the photographs from the quai, there is a sunken ground floor, then the 1st floor, then the piano nobile (the floor we have illustrated) The bay window is a bigger problem, the Winter Palace just would not have bay windows, they would be all wrong on any of it's facades, looking at the view throught he window, I wonder if the window illustrated was trompe l'oeil? Giano (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Combining [6] and [7] it looks like the place is 42 on our plan (63. Exhibition: "The Decoration of the Russian Interior in the 19th Century: The Boudoir of the 1840s-1850s") on theirs. 3 is White Drawing Room in the North-West Risolites. No idea what 1 and 2 on the first floor are (some rooms of the Alex Feodor suite I guess. Maybe indicate 1 as Nicholas's Private Drawing Room and say it is the next floor Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well done, have we solved the mystery of the bay window? I am pretty sure that the room immediatly north of 24 is the Imperial study, sorry I have been distracted I am reading the life of Alexander II, and became interested in some facts off subject - I am also reading a "Av lifelong passion" which tells refers to various rooms and meetings etc. I think by the 20th century the Arab dining Room had become a audience room. Giano (talk) 13:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me translate the plan [8] :

1. Иорданская галерея /первый этаж/ Jordan Gallery (ground floor) [9]

2. Парадная (Иорданская) лестница Jordan Staircase [10]

3. Фельдмаршальский зал Field Marshal Hall [11]

4. Петровский (Малый тронный) зал Peter (Small throne) Hall [12]

5. Георгиевский (Большой тронный) зал St. George (Large throne) Hall [13] eng

6. Военная галерея 1812 года Military Gallery [14] eng

7. Гербовый зал Armorial Hall [15] eng

8. Большая церковь The Grand Church [16] eng

9. Александровский зал Alexander Hall [17] [18]

10. Залы военных картин Hall of Military Painting [19] [20]

11. Большая гостиная Large Drawing Room [21] eng

12. Белый зал White Hall [22] [23]

13. Октябрьская лестница October Stair Case [24] [25]

14. Золотая гостиная Golden Drawing Room [26] eng

15. Малиновый кабинет Crimson Cabinet [27]

16. Будуар Boudoir [28] eng

17. Учебная комната Study [29] eng

18. Спальня Bedroom [30] eng

19. Ротонда Rotunda [31]

20. Библиотека Николая II Library of Nicholas II [32] eng

21. Малая (Белая) столовая Small (white) dining room [33] [34]

22. Малахитовая гостиная Malachite Room [35] eng

23. Большая Арапская столовая Large Arab dining room [36]

24. Концертный зал Concert Hall [37] eng

25. Портретная галерея дома Романовых portrait Gallery of Romanovs [38]

26. Большой (Николаевский) зал Large (Nicholas) Hall [39] eng

27. Аванзал Avant-Salle [40]

Another useful map with English references is [41] it includes Hermitage

Thanks Alex, that's brilliant, the plan is already very amended, I will make the next changes. Best to stick with the old plan, then there will be no copyright problems.Can also upoad the original for contrast to show changes over the centuries. Giano (talk) 10:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hunting through Flickr

I have absolutely no idea how to upload photos from Flickr, but I've been hunting through there to see if there are useful interior images that already have appropriate copyright status. I'll stick links to anything I dig up here, with notations on the copyright statements.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maggiew/2127226614/ - Creative commons/Attribution. Nice shot of (I think) the private park entrance.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndalls/525007825/ - old photos, CC-by-SA. This link might be useful for a lot of places, from the look of it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalchris/1422659096/in/set-72157602102560785/ - CC-SA but noncommercial, some good shots, maybe worth twisting an arm.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/485497547/in/photostream/ - All rights reserved, but again some good interior shots the photog might be persuaded to switch to CC-by-SA for.

I'll keep my eyes open for anything else. Risker (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, the throne one we already have (it was never Pete the Great's - he was dead long before it was built), I'm not sure if we can upload the others - the courtyard one, would be good because I'm currently ading a landscape plan, exactly from where that was taken, to the already uploaded plan, and working on a sub page for the palace gardens which can redirect, there are not many gardens, so it will only be a couple of hundred words and a couple of 19th century plans I have, thanks Risker - this has the makings of a half decent page. Giano (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Garden photo uploaded here: Image:Winter_Palace_Garden_Entrance.jpg. Another new talent for me. Let me know if you are interested in any of those old photos for this or any other project you're working on, they have to go directly to Commons, but it was a very straightforward upload. Risker (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ref as requested

<ref name="massie">''Peter the Great: His Life and World'' (Knopf, 1980) by Robert K. Massie, ISBN 0-394-50032-6</ref> Taken from the St. Petersburg article, I assume it is valid. You can copy and paste it in. Doesn't have a page number, though; I'll see if I can get one. Risker (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Better reference: Teeple, John B., Timelines of World History (DK Publishing, New York, Revised 2006); page 319. ISBN 0-7566-1703-0.

--Risker (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "the green-and-white palace"

It has not always been green-and-white. Colchicum (talk) 10:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It has been green-and-white since 1946 only. Colchicum (talk) 10:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The age is far from finished. It will al be in there eventually, it was red from 1837 to 1917 and has changed many times. Giano (talk) 11:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

This page is far from finished, and much planned information is still not detailed here, but any comments on the talk page are welcome. Because it is a mammoth subject, it is going to have to have various sub-pages, all of which can be united under Category: The Hermitage. I think the Winter Palace page itself will end just after the Revolution, when it became part of the Hermitage Museum, as the Hermitage page can pick up after that. Then, the individual room pages can then detail not only their history, but also their contents etc., as they are seen under The Hermitage name today.

The other question I have, is for the sake of consistency on the page, I suggest using only "Tsar and Tsaritsa" or "Emperor and Empress" (I know different rulers liked different titles) but, I think, that would make the page too confusing - any thoughts on that?. please post on talk page anybthoughts. thanks. Giano (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The article looks excellent already in my opinion and I like your proposal for creating subpages for the important individual rooms. I have a book called "Hermitage: A Biography of a Famous Museum" or something like that. I haven't read it in years, and don't know where it is exactly, but I remember thinking at the time that it was pretty good, and I could try to dig it out if you think that might help? I also have the Robert Massie book mentioned a few sections above, if you need someone to look up page numbers in that.

As for Emperor-Empress/Tsar-Tsaritsa(ina) I tend to think Emperor-Empress is preferable for this period of history. St. Petersburg was always intended to be a European capital, and the Winter Palace was very much a creature of Imperial Russia. (Although I don't feel strongly about this, and if your preference is toward tsar, I don't see this as a concern.) --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm pleased too, the main Winter palace page is coming on quite nicely, two more big sections, some polishing and heaving cutting and editing and I thik it will be almost there.

I hope a Russian history expert is looking over my shoulder, as it is all research rather than studd I already knew, and some sources do contradict each other. All the books mentioned I actually have here on the desk beside me, including the Massie. I am going to have to be careful not to get too much on Nicholas and Alexandra, and make the page bottom heavy. I actually prefer Tsar and Tsaritsa - but I'm not that bothered so will go with opinion on the subject. I like the idea too of the room pages, as it means they can be of benefit to the State Hermitage Museum page too, don't be put off by the "user page" part please just dump any infomation and facts you have directly on the pages, and I can sort it out later, or even adopt a room if you like, I think we have images for most of them now, some of those water colours are better than the modern fotos. I'll probably keep it all in user-space untill the whole project is finished and the category created - so they can all stand together. Giano (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like fun! I will dig up this old Hermitage book and as long as it's as good as I remember, dive in. I can look over the history, not at a professorial level, but certainly as someone who's studied it. It's not right, for example, that Peter II moved the capital from Moscow to Peter in 1728. Peter I made it the de facto capital in 1712 or so, but it was Anna who officially moved it in 1732. If you're interested, there's a wonderful and generally considered authoritative history of Russian Culture called The Icon and the Axe by James H. Billington. I have a copy and will plan to see if any of it's relevant. I'll see if I can't find my Hermitage book over the weekend as well. --JayHenry (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I found the Hermitage Book and added a bit to this and the subpages. Do let me know if there are particular things you're looking to flesh out and I can look for those areas specifically as I read through. I'm not picky about any edits, so feel free to revise, move, or remove as you see fit. --JayHenry (talk) 05:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No please add as much as you like to the sub-pages, I have been rather side-tracked of late, and hope to get back onto the palace later this week. Thanks a lot. Giano (talk) 07:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, well, the pressures of being a famous Wikipedian...

I'll keep chipping away. Do you think hermitagemuseum.org is an okay site for the rooms? Also, do you think some sort of template linking the rooms would be good? Is the idea to have the clicky map link to all the room pages as well? --JayHenry (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

More infamous than famous! The hermitage site is OK, bit I don't want to rely too heavily on it, so that this series is subtly different, otherwaise people may as well go there rather than here - if you follow me. The template is a good idea. I hope we can find someone who can turn the plan that is practically finished now into a "clicky map" (like the one at Queluz) wich will link directly to the pages on the rooms, I am not very good at that sort of thing, but will have a go if no-one volunteers. The rooms themselves can have the clicky map too, but with their own room shaded red, as I have done here. Your help is appreciated here, I may have bitten off more than can chew here! There is no need to mention too much about the Hermotage, as that is going to have it's own page in the category, which can also include the Winter Palace contents today, as it is today part of the Hermitage. I think the modern dau Palace can be wrapped up in a few paras in the conclusion heavily referring to the Hermitage Museum. :-) Giano (talk) 06:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Turns out I have a photo editor that can make clicky maps pretty easily. Well, none of the links are right, but I think I have all the labels in the right spot, and it won't take long to make them link to the correct spot. I love this feature. --JayHenry (talk) 06:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That is so clever, really clever, well done! I shall not touch it, in case it falls to pieces. I hope to beback here in a few days, just as son as things are sorted elsewhere, Giano (talk) 07:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, tinkered with it some more and moved it to {{Winter Palace}}. If you want to change any of the links, do let me know. Right now some of the rooms link to image pages, but were you thinking that ideally we'd have them all link to subpages? Now that I've measured the rooms, it only takes a second to change where they link. I'll get back to the books and do some actual research this weekend too. Cheers! --JayHenry (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Diagram showing layout of the Winter Palace. The numbers in this key are referred to throughout the article - Click on numbers for images and further details.

It's brilliant!!!! this is just what Wikipedia needs, eventually thay can al lead to individual pages, though several will be sections of User:Giano/The Private Rooms of the Winter Palace page. This is something the Hermitage Site does not have, and will make out article more user friendly and easier to understand. Thanks so much. Giano (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jay Henry, do you have any idea how we can get this plan into the text, in the same place as the other image (underneath the older plan and the same size) complete with a caption and explanatin of how to use it?

Yep! The caption text can only be changed by editing {{Winter Palace}} directly, it seems. I went ahead and dropped it in. --JayHenry (talk) 01:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)