User talk:Giano II/archive 8

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[edit] Undeleted and unprotected

Per your request I have unprotected your talk page. Phil Sandifer undeleted the history a few days ago to use as evidence. If there were any edits that should have remained deleted (harassment and such) please let me or any other admin know. Welcome back. Thatcher 20:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks but no, this page for some odd reasom is never vandalised or me harassed - they would have to be very brave to attempt such a thing. Giano (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

How kind and clever of Phil, I had no idea he was an admin. Would you mind doing the user page too. Thanks. Giano (talk) 20:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, since Thatcher may not be watching this page. NoSeptember 20:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I don't like a red signature makes one look like a bolshevik. Giano (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have thought of that. Thatcher 20:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

hell, Hoover & McCarthy are rolling in their graves - who knew Bolsheviks were so lacking in subtlety? Anyway, I just fell off the welcome wagon for a quick tipple & toast- to interesting times! sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 21:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps an image of an Ushanka for your talk page? Lawrence Cohen 21:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

How I wish the color red once again popularly signified Bolshevism. Welcome back Giano. Amerique^dialectics 21:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Without prejudice to our doubtless differing views on the issues surrounding the arbitration, it is good to know you are still with us. Happy New Year.--Doc^g 20:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and you were correct about the addiction.--Doc^g 21:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh God, are we on different sides? What a pity we all can't realise we are on the same side. Never mind, I have found a pill for the addiction. Giano (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Differing views, need not equate to differing "sides". Anyway, I'm staying out of it.--Doc^g 21:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Very wise, so am I. I'm continually amazed at what some on Wikipedia are prepared to argue over. I have never once passed a comment at #admins and in spite of this I am a well rounded educated perfectly ordinary human being. How can this be, how have I managed to survive so long? Giano (talk) 21:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back, Giano. Nice to see you back. --Tex 21:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC) (oh, yeah. and what is wrong with a red signature???) --Tex 21:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Just want to say it's nice to see you on here. We've been on opposite sides and same sides so many times I've lost count. Just wanted to say ... I'm glad to see you here - Alison ^❤ 21:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

me too Aatomic1 (talk) 21:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sir Claude and me too! -- Hoary (talk) 23:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't any of you have anything more productive to do than post here? Giano (talk) 23:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Heck with that, I did my heavy lifting this morning with a bit of help from NoSeptember above. Blue is a much better colour on you, Giano. Risker (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Does that also mean no more pink bathrobes? Cla68 (talk) 00:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Don't any of you have anything more productive to do than post here?" ... er, no! Why do you ask? :) Welcome back Giano. Queluz is looking awesome. ++Lar: t/c 02:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Queluz National Palace is not only looking awesome, it will be on the Main Page in less than 24 hours. Amazing work - Giano leading a team of 29 editors - the perfect example of collaborative editing. Risker (talk) 02:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to see the red Giano II link blueified again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Giano, though we have not been much in contact, I have always admired, and continue to admire, your tireless and brilliant writing, and your integrity and fearlessness when it comes to defending the spirit of this place against those who undermine it in the name of its preservation. I'll stick a star on your user page if you permit. If only others could be convinced to come back as well. Would that every editor could be given a warm welcome (-back) in the firm knowledge that the excesses of self-righteousness among some overly visible Wikipedians will never again be tolerated. Kosebamse (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Well said. Cla68 (talk) 13:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back, Giano. Thank you for conceding Wikipedia the benefit of your always outstanding collaboration, despite some grudges that may be troubling you. Best regards, Húsönd 00:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Husond (and others above) - yes we all have our crosses to bear! In the meantime I see someone overnight has added the word "simpler" is that a word, my limted English tells me it should ne "more simple" but I'm not sure anyone know the answer? Giano (talk) 09:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That was me. To me, simpler sounds slightly better than more simple. (Well, obviously: otherwise I wouldn't have changed it.) I'm puzzled by the love of WP writers for such constructions as more well known, when to me better known is far less awkward. Also, since English has such a puny amount of inflectional morphology, I feel a certain duty to give it some exercise before it dies off completely. -- Hoary (talk) 08:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Simpler sounds fine to me, Giano, and "more simply" ("Expressed more simply.") but you'll recall my error on condottiere eh...--Wetman (talk) 08:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Lawson

I figured you would get what I meant. Risker (talk) 22:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Giano. Good to see you back! I've added some more comments at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Robert Lawson (architect)‎ and (of course!) I've reversed your revert on Lawson. The explanation is at the Review - and it centres on the sources - my source trumps yours ;-)! I haven't been through the whole article - and I only picked on that section because the peacock claim of "The building has long been regarded as one of the finest pieces of architecture in Dunedin" did stand out somewhat. Regarded by whom and when? The source as now found reveals that the school themselves are making that claim. But this doesn't stand up against a Professor Emeritus, of the University of Auckland writing in the national Encyclopedia of New Zealand. I don't have the time or knowledge to go through the whole article, but if that section is typical, the rest of the article might benefit from checking for reliable sources; and, as you worked on it and know the sources, you are probably one of the best placed to do that work. Keep well. 00:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Bugger - forgot to sign properly SilkTork *^SilkyTalk 00:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[1] Giano (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Don't worry

I'm happy to have contributed to the success of its appearance on the main page today Victuallers (talk) 17:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congregazione dei Virtuosi al Pantheon

Ever heard of it? It came up in my bio of John Michael Wright, and I'm intrigued as to what it is. It appears as an important item on the resume of just about every great Catholic artist of the period, yet finding information is impossible. All I got was in Danish, of all things.--Doc^g 12:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I think: It was an organization set up to promote literature and the arts originally called the "Congregation of St. Joseph of the Holy Land". It received Papal recogintion in the mid 16th century.. The Organization is still going strong but known from 19th century as "The Papal Academy of Fine Arts and Literature of the Pantheon" Its aims to promote the study, operation and improvement of Literature and Fine Arts, with particularly in regard to sacred art and images connected with the Christian faith - more so the Catholic interpretation of it. It is all very tied up with the Vaticano Council for Culture. I'm not sure they exhibited in the Pantheon in Rome though - I always assumed they were the greatest artists of their generation so therefore enshrined in some idiomatic Pantheon. I have a book somewhere, the question is where? I'll get back to you. Giano (talk) 13:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it ought to be here Roman Academies, if there is only enough available for a stub. Ought to be enough for a FA though. Giano (talk) 13:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The DNB has "On 10 February of the same year Wright was also elected a member of the Congregazione dei Virtuosi, having been proposed by a Pietro Ferreri. This was a charitable organization concerned with promoting religion by means of the arts. It also organized an annual exhibition in the Pantheon, where Wright must have measured himself against the best painters working in the city." - that's where Iget the Pantheon thing. But this could be erroneous.--Doc^g 13:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The Pantheon theory was my assumption so could well be wrong, it just seems an odd cold curved and open place to exhibit art - even today it is far from ideal. There is a better translation than mine here [2] although no information. Giano (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi Giano. I see that you authored a FA on Belton House and decided to ask you for a favour. I recently put an article that I wrote , Western Chalukya architecture into FAC, but it was not promoted. The reasons mostly had to do with grammar, prose etc. However, I felt that if someone like you could read my article, you may have some ideas that I could incorporate into the present article and improve its presentation, format as well. Hope you have the time. thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What I nice scholarly page. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I am very surprised it failed, especially after all the hard work you did to try to address all the comments [3] If you truly want it pass then remove a lot of the valuable information and make it shorter and more concise. Were I you, I would be very proud of having written it and leave it exactly where and how it is at the moment. My sole knowledge of Western Chalukya architecture comes from reading your page and I feel I am now very educated on the subject.

However, if I were going to renominate it myself I may have made the page longer by adding a final section detailing how the architecture is appraised today - a sort of summing up and continuation of the final paragraphs of the lead. Perhaps I would also have make the final long table into a separate page/list. You might just like to consider those two points. However, well done for writing it. If Raul is reading this then I ask him to respectfully to take a second look at the page and its FAC. Let me know how you get on. Giano (talk) 16:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I was actually thinking about asking you to take a look at it before I failed the nom, but I decided against it. I don't think size is a problem with that article. I am concerned about issues of organization and possibly factual correctness that were raised during the nomination. Dinesh - I'll tell you what. If you feel ready, why don't you renominate it now? Raul654 (talk) 16:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano, is it ok to put the last four images in the article in a gallery? thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

So long as the copyright is OK you can do more or less what you like with them. Personally, I don't like galleries - you can squeeze a lot of images into a page if you are clever (or have a clever friend see Queluz National Palace) but don't lose them as they are very beautiful and descriptive for the page. Giano (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi again. I have taken care of the table, created a "see also" link page for it, moved the "Temple deity" section to the bottom so people can focus on the real architecture (per user:Rodw) and am in the process of repositioning the images. user:Wetman stepped in to help with one more round of copy edits. Do you think I can re-nominate now? thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It is such a thorough comprehensive page, no matter how you write it someone somewhere will always think they could have written it better in an other way. So yes, live dangerously, nominate it now and be prepared to make some more changes and it ought to pass FAC. Remember it is not a widely known subject so be prepared to be asked for more cites than you may feel strictly necessary. Giano (talk) 22:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The re-nomination is done. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 23:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

That was fast! I can't vouch for the factual correctness, but would certainly support it assuming any contraversial facts are cited. If it is was renominated - I would like to see that table elsewhere (not lost just with its own page referred to in the article) but that is not a reason to oppose and I wouldn't. Giano (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone decides to renominate this article in a hurry, let me point out that the article has major outstanding problems of cohesion and coherence, and by that I don't mean organization of sections. I mean problems of flow of prose and more importantly flow of information in prose. If you give me ten minutes, I'll pick out two paragraphs in the article and annotate them on the talk page of the article. I'm sure, once I point out the problems, user:Dineshkannambadi will try to fix them as best as he can, but I guarantee you that I will then find two more paragraphs and do the same, and two more ... Coherence (which includes logic, time order in paragraphs, etc.) takes time. Give me ten minutes, and I'll post something on the Talk:Western Chalukya architecture. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Please see Talk:Western_Chalukya_architecture#Clarity.2C_Cohesion_and_Coherence. Sorry, it took 20. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC) update. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Since a crowd seems to have gathered here, I'll drop off my note here. Giano, I hope you dont mind. Thanks.

My 2 cents - I was away on a break the last month or so and I returned to see that the article had not been promoted. I must say that I am very surprised that it hasnt been promoted. The article surely needs some ironing for better prose. But beyond that I do not see any problems with the article that it should fail a FAC nom. Nor are the problems with the prose so great that it should fail the nom solely on those grounds. The article is probably the most scholarly piece you'll find about the subject anywhere on the internet.

imo, most of the 'concerns' expressed on the FAC was simply unabashed trolling and nitpicking than anything genuine. its a pity that dinesh failed to spot the trolling and continued to respond in all earnestness to some of the 'concerns' there. Sarvagnya 17:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't use the word "Trolling" on this page ever! I think you and Mr Fowler had better save any more comments for the new FAC page. Giano (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Western Chaluky arch

Hi. I wanted to point a couple of things in the copy edits to the first para of the Evolution section.

• One of these distinguishing motifs of the The Western Chalukyan architectural style was an articulation that can still be found throughout modern Karnataka.

I am a bit confused here. motif and articulation are both patterns except articulation includes projections and recesses (according to the authors I have referred to). what is the best definition of a motif.

ThanksDineshkannambadi (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Dammit I though we had motif there is a difference but it is too late at night and I'm too tired to explain it. I see a friend of mine has the page "in use" at the moment I will have a second attempt at clarification tomorrow. Giano (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are thinking more of "repetative motif" but I agree it nees to be made clearer. Giano (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano, please ignore the latest comments by Fowler. Please continue with your constructive work. I will discuss with Raul how to deal with this reviewer.thanksDineshkannambadi (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

How about Motif_(visual_arts)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.132.50.184 (talk) 22:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Bloody sinebot just conflicted me. No that page has too much emphasis on repetition rather than a common feature of a style, I have some orphan-images on the site tucked away for just such a page it is about time I wrote it. Thanks for the help though. Giano (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "mystry" sentence w.r.t artifical illumination in the inner parts of the shrine, this is what the book says,consequently a small oil lamp was usually burning day and night, to illuminate by its fitful glimmer, the object of worship, which thus gained in mystry, what it lost in visibility. The palpable darkness, pierced only by the reflected light from the inner most prominent portions of the image, was calculated to impress the approaching worshipper with that wholesome awe which was becoming to the occassion, and , to wrapt up in his religious frevour, he could believe he saw the sentinet movement of the deities grim features as the lights rays flickered over them.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano, Fowler has been warned by an admin that if he continues to disrupt FAC activities in any manner, he will be blocked. You have nothing to worry about now. Please proceed.thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the conclusion paragraph you requested for, I was thinking of writing on the past and present research activities, brief (two line) details of Seminal works by scholars on the Western Chalukya monuments, efforts by Archaeological survey of India to protect these monuments and such. Is this what you had in mind? thanksDineshkannambadi (talk) 03:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• I have just left a message on the FAC page. If others are planing to re-write the page soon (and they have a perfect right to do so) there seems little point us wasting our time on it. I am only re-working your version and ideas for the page, I am not re-writing it. Do you the difference? However, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly" is rightly one of Wikipedia principles cast in stone (not even I could campaign for that one be changed - and I would not want to) but when their us a declared intention to re-write a page one can see when one's efforts would be a waste of time. Sadly, this is just one of those occasions and there is nothing at all you or I can do but accept it. Yes, your suggestions for the conclusion were what I had in mind - a modern day appreciation. I know this is not the answer you want to see but we cannot alter Wikipedia's founding principles and I don't like wasting my time. I'm very sorry for you, I know what it is like to invest hours of time and entheusiasm in a page and then have it riped to pieces. It is hard but you have to accept it. Giano (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I have left a message for Raul because I was not sure how to handle this new situation. However, I still feel you should not let some users get under your skin. Some people thrive on such things. Thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Dinesh, no one is under my skin, I just feel if the page is about to be re-written completely then it is a waste of my time (and anyone else's) helping to preserve and improve your version. I think you have been very unkindly treated, and if I were in your shoes I would be beside myself with anger and hurt - you have a right to feel aggrieved. I have never read such messages [4] on the FAC page and elsewhere like it before. I note he has apologised but the situation has not gone away, nor do I imagine it will[5][6]. They have a right to re-write the page and no-one can stop them. To announce this to an editor who has written the page and is working his socks off on the FAC page, as you are, seems wrong but under Wiki-law I don't think it is. Etiquette is nice but it is not enforceable and anyway should not prevent a principal Wikipedia principal such as "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly". For myself, I am trying very hard to avoid conflict at the moment, I am tired and unsure what I am doing on Wikipedia at the moment. I certainly don't want conflict on the FAC page which I always think of as my own home ground. Giano (talk) 14:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Giano, for lending Dinesh a hand on this article; it has been most painful watching this from the sidelines, as I recused myself early on because of some related issues, leaving it to Raul. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I can assure you it is very painful from where I am sitting too. I don't know what the answer is. I have never before seen a wiki-situation like it. I doubt anyone has. I have never felt so sorry for another editor before. Giano (talk) 19:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I am obligated to maintain a stance now that is as neutral as possible or recuse myself if I can't, so I'll just leave it at painful. It's most kind of you to help out in a charged, controversial atmosphere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I did answer your question in italics above. Perhaps you missed it? The book clearly uses the term mystry.[7]Dineshkannambadi (talk) 19:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In that case Dinesh you are quite within you rights to use the term, if that indeed was the spelling I would put it in inverted commas, then there is nothing anyone can complain about! It looks like all your hard work is up and runing. Giano (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the remaining section I promised, its ready and will be typed in today. Another reviewer wanted more detailed info on influence of WCA on other arch. styles. So I will try to club the two together. I will call it Influence and apprecitation.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 19:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a brilliant idea, I will look the page over tomorrow. Giano (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Apprecitation section is in. Please take a look. Hope it looks okay.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That is great, really great, I just swapped the two paragraphs over - I just think it reads better that way as a conclusions. One last thing, now we have the extra space could some of the pictures crowded in the section above, come down to the new section to improve the visual appearence of the layout? Giano (talk) 07:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I will move couple of images down. It was getting late last night, so I switched off.thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My pleasure. Giano (talk) 14:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rollback

I have set your rights for rollback as requested.--Doc^g 09:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Doc, that is great. It will be so useful. Giano (talk) 09:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You're back!

Was a little concerned when I saw it all blanked, my rattlesnake. Tony (talk) 12:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes well, there is a lot more hissing left in me yet! Giano (talk) 13:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copy editing

May I go at your lovely FA essay? I'll keep the charming sense of humour intact, I promise. Risker (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather you held off for a while, it is intended to be serious advice and provide encouragement and it is far from finished yet. Giano (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. It is well on its way, though. Risker (talk) 23:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Drat, I didn't notice this question-and-answer when I went ahead and did what I did. Feel free to revert! -- Hoary (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

No I'm quite happy for people to copyedit during the hours of darkness when I am asleep and you are all roaming the site. Giano (talk) 10:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Intro to Evo

Thank you so much for your kid words regarding Introduction to Evolution. It started a bit rough; but fortunately, our critics were for the most part specifically brutal. Which is fair, in that they responded as we made the corrections. I couldn't help but notice the immense frustrations in the rather lengthy thread above regarding an FA attempt. Actually I was browsing over FA attempts, looking to see if my drive-bye voters were doing the same on other pages, and read some of the commentaries related to the above. I hope those that are behind the sense trying to make it the best it can be; ignore some of the rather unspecific, non-constructive commentaries and continue to sort out the good from the bad advice. I found the FA attempt to be meaningful. What some seem to not understand is that it is the FA review process itself that contributes to an article being FA worthy; assuming one offers specific suggestions and not just derogatory commentaries.--Random Replicator (talk) 23:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, the above was the exception to the rule. Normally the FAC reviewers are complete pussy-cats. Giano (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] strem of consciousness writing

		The Surreal Barnstar
		I award Giano this surreal barnstar for his funny essay which at times descends quite tastefully into stream of consciousness writing but in a way which is eminently readable and maybe challenges Tony's views on clear prose or maybe just reinforces it anyway it would make James Joyce proud you should read Ulysses one day I always meant to but only read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Just hang on , no mone must read it until it is finished. Thanks for the barnstar though. I'll keep it. Giano (talk) 08:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Er, was it not done yet? It's been mentioned on That Site, you know. You didn't have it properly marked with {{inuse}} boxes and suchlike so you can't well blame me for reading it in advance! I've posed a question on the talk (which is of utmost importance, at least IMHO) as well. More seriously the constant need to sort out the real advice from the not quite as real makes this a most fascinating and enjoyable read. You really ought to write more essays! ++Lar: t/c 17:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh shit! I wondered why it was getting so much comment, I will have to stick a Spumoni on it. It is suppose to be a serious attempt to encourage people to write more FAs. Giano (talk) 17:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

...that's why I did this....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes good idea. Very impresive. You need to hire a publicist. Well I now finally have time to go and have a look at the other place and see what they have to say. Trouble is every time I log out here I have this horrible feeling I won't be allowed back in. Giano (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I can't find anything there Lar must have imagined it. I never can find anything there though why don't they index? Giano (talk) 21:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Just search for keywords like your name - should do the trick. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Might work for you, my name come up more often than the Holy Father's there - can't i just have a link? Giano (talk) 21:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah I forgot about that. Umm..hadn't seen anything myself....'Giano' + 'FA'/'Featured'...ummmmm cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Festetics ecstatic

Hello Giano. I just found out a while ago that Wikipedia still didn't have an article about the Festetics Palace, one of the most famous and visited palaces of Hungary. In fact, not even the Hungarian Wikipedia seems to have it. Wow. *swoon* Anyway, I just started a stub on it but I'm a such a lousy writer you know, so if you happen to check it out and find it interesting, please consider sprinkling a pinch of your prodigious editorial skills. :-) Best regards, Húsönd 03:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I've only recently learned not to rhyme them with "aesthetics", but googling about has drawn up some details. Is the gateway (right) from the building campaign following 1745, which is what it looks like, or from the 1880s extravagant extensions? Lurking as ever, Wetman (talk) 06:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes I rememember the lady well, she popped up in Prince's Palace of Monaco did rather better for herself in Hungary it seems. I'm not doing any proper writing untill after the termination of this silly Arbcom case. It would not be fair if I had to ask one of the Arbs to finish it for me. Giano (talk) 09:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It looks as if they went ahead with the marriage before the Monaco divorce had completely gone through. Flickr has some shots showing some very tartaned-up portraits. --Wetman (talk) 10:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah well that's the aristocracy for you - no Sunday newspapers to worry about in those days. Giano (talk) 12:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IRC evidence

I noticed your concerns here about the evidence I presented on some of the history between Tony, Bishonen and you among others. The introductory text was meant to be general; obviously, you don't have a long history of interpersonal disputes with Bishonen, for example, even though the way that text was originally phrased one could think that that was what I was saying. In any event, since I'm not presenting any evidence of off-wiki disputes I've dropped the mention of that altogether. --bainer (talk) 10:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you. I don't have any off-wiki disputes with anyone. I am quite capable, honest enough, and unafraid enough, of making my ponts quite clearly on Wiki. Wikipedia would be abetter place if others felt the same way. Giano (talk) 10:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FA guide

Filiocht, author of some of Wikipedia's greatest FAs at the time, has the unique distinction of being one of the only prolific FA writers to be elected to the Arbcom. - what about Kirill Lorshkin (4), and what about myself (10)? Raul654 (talk) 22:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You, as a pillar of the community, are not supposed to be reading such seditious rubbish - you'll be editing on WR next. we can't have you baned too. Besides which I was just testing to see who was reading it? Giano (talk) 22:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

PS: and I gave you a fine physique what more do you want? Giano (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm just pulling your leg ;) -- the guide is amusing though. On a more serious note - if you do have suggestions for ways we can reform the process, I'm all ears. Raul654 (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Contrary to what many people think I, I think, I don't think the process needs huge reform the page is actually a serious attempt to convince people that anyone can write a FA if they have some support and encouragement just so long as they are interested in the subject. Too many people say they can't do it when they can, or are frightened to stand up and say I have written this I would like it to be a FA. Once you have done it once the rest is easy. Giano (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with that. I have spent time urging editors time and time again to try it as it is not as scary as folks think. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Pellegrino, he did say one of... that does not leave you out, after all. Oh, and you spelt Lokshin wrong, some pillar of the community you are. Finally, perhaps Fillocht's FAs are just... better than yours? (grinning, ducking, running away) ++Lar: t/c 14:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• flit in* Though we might disagree on quite a bit, your guide so far is quite amusing, and useful to boot. (Especially the Day on the main page section. Your summary pretty much caps what happened when Chicxulub Crater got to the front without me knowing, and I was reverting every time I looked at the watchlist... :/) Good job. *flit out* David Fuchs ^(talk) 23:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oar in* Might I suggest this to illustrate Bishonen's Toilette. It did grace her talk page at one point, but it is probably in a deleted revision now. *Oar out* Yomangani^talk 02:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Four years of being an FA, and now A Tale of a Tub is on FAR. It contains all this uncited stuff! Stuff that anyone who read the f*cking thing would get immediately has to be cited. If you say that Simon Le Gre is an evil character, you'd better have a footnote, because recognizing a plain fact is speculation. Utgard Loki (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Ugh. Oh well: "<ref>Cliff's Notes 43.</ref>" etc etc etc. -- Hoary (talk) 15:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC) ... PS I see A Tale of a Tub is there with Crushing by elephant, which is only one of the most (morbidly) fascinating FAs I've ever read. How can one write articles so they're proofed against this nonsense and still find time for a "life"? -- Hoary (talk) 15:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
    • "Who says it's an allegory?" That's about all that anyone needs to know about the FAR listing. (The answer, by the way, is Jonathan Swift, William Wotten, Richard Bentley, Samuel Johnson, John Nichols, Henry Fielding, Alexander Pope, and every reader of the damned book. The book... which is NOT A NOVEL.) Geogre (talk) 19:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oh sear Utgard, you do seem a little cross. Take deep breaths. This is all getting very silly isn't it? I'm thinking of setting up my own brand of FA, I mean we have FAs and GAs and BAAs I may set myself up in opposition wit IAs (intelligent articles) over which I will preside. I think this would solve a lot of stress. It is a great pity that people just cannot concentrate on adding more high quality to the site and stop worrying about the high quality that is already here. I think I may add a section on FARC to my essay, that will serve them right. Giano (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Fin MacCool, you must come down from the chariots and fight! No, Connachtman, it is true that I will not. If you do not, I will write a lampoon on all the Ulstermen. Well, let the Ulstermen never suffer a satire on my account, says the great Finn, and he leaps from his chariot and strikes the Connachtman dead with an ashen spear. Geogre (talk) 19:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think IA would be ok, but BATTY would be good, too (Better Articles Than Those of Yours). Geogre (talk) 19:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

As the vogue seems to be for FA guides and inspired by yours (misguided though it is) I've produced my own. Yomangani^talk 14:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interjection on why reffing can be really cool sometimes

Sometimes one can be really surprised - we've just worked up vampire for FAC (It is a little, erm, big though hopefully we can keep it in one piece) and in the process while sniffing out sources came across a couple of surprises:

Over the past 20 years I'd heard alot from various places on a link between origins of vampire folklore and porphyria, and it was only when I looked into it I found how tenuous the link was. In essence, one guy made a short paper at a conference in 1985 drawing some pretty long bowstrings and didn't proceed to publish it. Descpite being discounted by experts in the field, the media caught wind of it and it romped into popular culture.

There were plenty of other examples in this field along the way but that was the best. I guess it's why I like inline reffing now and......trust no-one......in an X-files sorta way...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No one is disputing the need for reffing unknown or controversial facts and that one certainly needs reffing, as does the assumption that George III suffered from porphyria, and were it claimed that George III was a vampire that would need reffing too, but would you also want to ref that George III was the son of Frederick, Prince of Wales? or that he was King of England or was married to Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz? Giano (talk) 22:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it depends where you draw the line. I have NFI about Florentine culture apart from blundering around Florence as a backpacker 15 years ago - remember being impressed by the Florence Baptistry though.... -but seriously I didn't know who Vasari was. It can be rticky when talking to a neophyte exactly how many steps back one needs to explain things...The FAs I have done have been pretty obscure so I haven't given much thought to the issue with referencing really obvious things...

Wow, George III a vampire? never heard that one. Freaky....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Mm, when one whispers the suggestion— when commonplaces are tagged for referencing— that to one who hasn't actually read anything in a field, everything is unheard-of, furiously insulted editors drive past and shoot out one's windows. --Wetman (talk) 00:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that was so...intense...I think (ummmmm), what? aah ok then, cool....(just practising my stream of consciousness thought/speech)cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Apology for the &c. has Swift saying that "for the allegory...." There are notes to every edition past the 5th (that's 1705) from William Wotton talking about the "allegory." There are notes from every editor who has ever done an edition in the preface about the "origins of the allegory." However, we have someone demanding a citation that there is an allegory in A Tale of a Tub. Honestly, it only takes reading the book... or not even reading it, reading anything about it or reading just the introduction from any edition (I do mean any edition, too). The point is that there is a distinction between cruft, where fans talk to each other about their shared pleasure in a pop culture event, and then there is common knowledge. If something is contained in three or more contemporary printed sources, it's common knowledge and should not be cited. The A Tale of a Tub article seems to discuss pretty much only stuff that "everyone knows" who studies the period, and therefore it's good for new readers of the book, organized for experienced readers of the book, and comprehensive enough to be useful for teachers of the book. That's pretty good. Now, if it went off to say that the whole book is about Swift's potty training, or that it's the only great book he wrote, or that it reflects his psychic torture at being an orphan, or that it shows a hatred of his Irish roots, or any one of the thousands of silly things that critics have said, it would need heavy citation. Utgard Loki (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Queen's House

The article on the Queen's House contains the statement "However, although its style is generally called Palladian, its most specific precedent is not by Palladio but rather Giuliano da Sangallo's Villa Medici at Poggio a Caiano." It's not referenced although, great buildings online alludes to a quote from Banister Fletcher speculating that "Perhaps modeled on the Medici villa at Poggio a Caiano". I'm a bit wary of Fletcher these days, don't have my copy to hand, and know that you and Wetman are quite the authority in these matters. What's your view? At the very least the article's statement needs some qualification, but again, we are discussing antecedants, and one academic's speculation may be as valid as another, unless we have Jones's diary containing specific and bountiful praise of the Villa Medici, it's difficult to see why that was singled out rather than other candidates - or just a synthesis of his study tour to your motherland. --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

"Perhaps" indeed I see a vague passing resemblence but one needs a lot of imaginination. The villa has a loggia which surrounds the entire it providing a terrace for the piano nobile which was added when the villa was altered (it used to be the Villa Ambra was owned by the Strozzi). The internal courtyard was also transformed into a huge high salone. It has some nice frescoes so perhaps it is the interior he is thinking of. Do we have Villa Medici at Poggio a Caiano? <after preview - No.> Perhaps Wetman knows more. Giano (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I was once going to do an article on the Villa Medici at Poggio a Caiano (they possibly kept the Medici Giraffe there), so I know the Italian WP has some photos (ahh, there it is, cunningly concealed under its name). Anything jump out at you? I don't see it myself. La limonaia looks vaguely similar. Yomangani^talk 13:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks G and Y. There's a link to Poggio a Caiano, the town. I don't remember any frescoes at all in the Queen's house - it has a nice sparse elegance to it - the Navy keep a collection of some of their artworks there which are quite interesting I recall. If the Villa's portico was also added at the same time as the logia then we are perhaps getting closer to a passing resemblance, (proportion, central splitting stair, etc) but it's all very speculative and tenuous from where I'm standing, unless I hear otherwise from someone else, I'm off to change Queen's house to say it's palladian classicism.--Joopercoopers (talk) 13:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just been looking at Jone's original plans for the Queen's House they were infact "H" shaped. I'm pretty sure the Villa Medici Poggio a Caiano was more square , it does have some recesses in its facades but no so pronounced as to make it an "H". Giano (talk) 13:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - I think the road to Deptford or somewhere used to run through it. The theory doesn't hold up - Jones was in Italy in about 1606 - well the loggia and additions where already there in 1599 according to IT. I've heard enough - out with it! --Joopercoopers (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a picture here showing the recess in the facade, I think it is wishful thinking, i would be interested though in Wetman's view, the theory has obviously come from somewhere. Giano (talk) 13:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh! Well that is more similar - the road at the queen's house had a similar relationship - Wetman? --Joopercoopers (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a West elevation here and no mention of the Villa Medici from Dr. Higgot, just some pics of the Villa Rotunda and one of Scamozzi's.--Joopercoopers (talk) 14:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-united with my rather nice 1921 copy of Banister Fletcher (6th edition), he makes no mention of it. --Joopercoopers (talk) 20:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank God for that, if I'm very nice to you will you bequest that book to me? I wonder how the theory originated - I just would never look at the two and connect them. Even after you mentioned it and I did look at both buildings I had to stretch my imagination to see it - odd! Giano (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You're always nice to me Giano, although the nice gold leaf tracery in the vaguely art-nouveau cover means I'm loath to give it up this lifetime - but as you wish, in the unlikely event Giano outlives me, let this be a modification of my will. Although if you can't wait until your dotage I suggest cultivating the habit of lurking in secondhand bookshops while Mrs Giano is spending your children's inheritance on Italian leather shoes.--Joopercoopers (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

When Mrs G has finished with shoes, she then has to buy outfits to match them, there is nothing left for books. I'll send you some of my lovely home made sweets (am old Sicilian recipe) be sure to take two within half an hour of each other! Giano (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Beware Sicilians bearing gifts :-) Joopercoopers (talk) 21:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The direct Wikipedia source is likely to have been Greatbuildingson-line,com. Though we do know Jones was in Italy, we —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wetman (talk • contribs) 21:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Giano! Wetman's been silenced from the grassy knowl! --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

...oop: ignore that inadvertently saved fragment. I wonder if I were originally responsible for this bit of blarney: the immediate source is certainly greatbuildingson-line.com. There's no very telling connection with Poggio a Caiano (one of us lot does have to translate Italian wikipedia article for a Villa Medici at Poggio a Caiano article— Jimmy Wales said somewhere that the major articles have all been started at least! And the structure's making and re-fashioning in two campaigns for two queens is not the bland execution of a single abstract architectural idea after all; I haven't seen John Bold, Greenwich: An Architectural History of the Royal Hospital for Seamen and the Queen's House [Yale University Press] 2000.) Surely, as the Queen's House is now, the rhythms of 2-3-2, the central loggia embedded within the severe block, and the invisibly flat roof are the dominating features: I don't see them at Poggio a Caiano. That embedded portico is essentially Palladian-Jonesian. Delete the phrase, say I. --Wetman (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Wetman, I reworded it as "It was Jones's first major commission after returning from his tour of Roman, Renaissance and Palladian architecture in Italy." P.S. I added Vincenzo Scamozzi to the Palladian architecture see also section today - hope that's ok. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks Wetman, I was just a little worried about you there, my Granny used to tail off like that after the third martini. Giano (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I did start translating the Italian article a while back, as it's rather nice and the photos are pretty good too (though not quite to the Queluz standard). I stopped because it uses adjectives and gives opinions without accompanying them with inline citations and I didn't feel I was up to defending it from the "who says it is 'the most interesting'? citation needed" crowd. Yomangani^talk 23:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to do it in userspace, I can probably reff it afterwards. If you get stuck just paste in the It. and I will sort it. Giano (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I'll do that then. I haven't the time to do much else for the next couple of weeks or so, a paragraph here and there will fill the odd moment nicely. Yomangani^talk 23:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, it has a cracking end to the opening paragraph, The Platonic "Demiurgos". I don't understand it even in English. A ghostly wikipedian rattled his chains at me and pointed out we should have a page like [8] as well. I think he should come back and do it himself. Don't try concealing yourself behind that pillar, I can see you (though I doubt my entreaties will do any good, I've already tried sending the fishapod to get Bishonen back with no success) Yomangani^talk 01:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Epilogue

Seems the claim was added to the article by an authority [9]. I think I'll see if I can email him. --Joopercoopers (talk) 00:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted. I will be very interested n his response, he can't have just invented the claim. Giano (talk) 07:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You have mail. --Joopercoopers (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ArbCom election

Alright buck! HNY an all that. What happened with the above - you get knocked back or is it ongoing?--Vintagekits (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi VK, no I rather think the show is over! Nice to hear from you. Giano (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Walk off the moccasins?

Giano
I may admire your article writing, but your recent comments RE:Durova aren't helpful, in my opinon. You are, at this very moment, simply giving more ammunition to your detractors. Please, please, just back away slowly. There are only a few options here:

1. Any administrators/arbitrators who agree with you will be forced to enforce "civility,"
2. Any administrators/arbitrators who disagree with you will gleefully enforce "civility."

There is almost zero chance of anyone being swayed by your recent comments, and in my opinion they make it far less likely that any action will be taken regarding anyone else.

While you clealry don't know this IP from a hill of beans, is there no one who you may confer with on this? Someone you respect, but has less of a reuptation for intemperance?

152.91.9.144 (talk) 00:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see what Durova has to do with this case, trudging along in those proverbial moccasins. I have put up with this for quite long enough. I am sick of hearing about Duova in her moccasins. I am also sick of the way this encyclopedia is being run. The Arbcom has been looking for a reason to "gleefully" get rid of me for too long, one can't forever be bashing one's head against a brick wall. What do you imagine they have been doing all this time? Sometimes it is better to stand up and say what one thinks and happily live with the results than forever sit there watching a complete deterioration. Giano (talk) 07:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I adhere to the belief of catching more flies with honey, but in the case of IRC... what recourse is left but incivility? Inappropriate behavior on the channel is condoned because it's "off-wiki." The policy page on wiki can't be edited because it turns out the people who run the channel don't have to follow the official policy of ownership. So what's left? The problems with the channel have been going on for ages, and now we have arbs and former admins chastising good faith contributors for having said "enough is enough." It took a fiat from Jimbo to get the ArbCom to even consider the case, and it's starting to look like they're going to gloss over all the problems that are apparent to anyone who isn't in the inner circle. At this point, what other options are left? We've already lost a great admin over this... enough is enough. AniMate 07:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• It would appear not! Giano (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) To the question "What recourse is left?" I present several courses of action:

1. Look over Arbitrators active on this case and consider the positions of each of the members listed as active.
2. Look over the list of new committee members and consider the positions of each of the members listed as active.
3. Finally examine /Proposed decision and see who has commented on what to date.

Note that there are currently no remedies in place even to be discussed, and that there is only one finding of fact that's passing. The "dialog" in this arbitration is running to waste products. This arbitration is a reactive one, and thus any outcomes are going to be clouded. It might be sensible to spend some time considering from scratch what the problems are and how to address them.
59.101.166.142 (talk) 10:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC) (but really 152.91.9.144)

Someone wants to start from scratch? Someone already did. It's too bad, though, that no one cares about the problems. As for Durova, she's injecting herself into the discussion. Why she wants to be the center of attention is something known only in her own heart, but arguing, "I was never mean to the Arbs" is, at best, anecdote. At worst, it invites precisely the response Giano gave: "You weren't rude to the Arbs because you were caught doing something that was so horribly wrong that, if you had been rude, you'd have never gotten only a slap on the wrist." It's actually disruptive behaviour on her part to introduce an irrelevancy ("I wasn't mean" (implied: you're being rude to Morven)), or it's an attempt to get an apology for how poorly her own pitiful corse was treated. Either way, it's right and meet so to protest at her comments. If the arbitrators have halos around them, whereby none may approach without due obeisance to the sacred nimbus, then the rest of us should be warned. Otherwise, Morven is a user. Durova is a user. Giano is a user. On the other hand, these dire warnings are coming from IP's, which are not users. Utgard Loki (talk) 13:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Buona sera. very busy day in RL - where my undoubted talents are appreciated, so I have not yet evaluated the watch list to see any salacious latest developments, if indeed any of them have been brave enough to post a proposed remedy - which I doubt. As I said last night the upshot of the previous attempts by the Arbcom to rid the encyclopedia of me have failed because I have ever only ever told the proven truth. I have just once been "reminded to be more tolerant and nice" (or words to that effect) - one does try - believe me one tries. This latest fiasco must be the largest trial for 3xR in the history of Wikipedia - with the death penalty being demanded. What a hoot. I see one of my very latest FAs has been nominated today at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations [10]. Glad to see I still do have my uses to the Jimbo, he obviously doesn't want me banned from there, that must be quite a few of them making money for Wiki now (Ah! 11 it seems, I wonder what is wrong with the others). Does the Arbcom have any idea how ridiculous they are making the project look with this case? One despairs, one truly despairs. I'm not prepared to put up with this any longer from them. they want to be guided by Gerard and Sidaway and co? - they can choose how they want the project to proceed. As an encyclopedia or a refuge for the likes of their staff. Giano (talk) 18:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You know, the ArbCom became a farce of a kangaroo court when the started referring to themselves as the "Committee" (capital 'C'!) and instituted a cadre of subordinate Clerks (capital 'C'!) to do their bidding. Somebody has to speak truth to power and say that the emperor has no clothes, and that the "Arbitrators" (capital 'A'!) are not better than everybody else. 75.116.4.29 (talk) 23:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well don't tell me, log in and tell them. Giano (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Arbcom case explained for the benefit of the totally confused

• The problem the Arbcom are having is that this case started out quite clearly as a "Get Giano et al" case which the Arbcom seized on in delight (I think the minute miniscule possibility of me ever getting on the Arbcom at some time in the future was the final panic). The Arbs problems behan when suddenly a few more began to take an interest and the title of the case had to be altered from "Giano" to "IRC". Now so many more people are watching it they cannot just "get Giano et al" and that is their problem . It is the "just" of course they should never have accepted the case without anticipating its logical conclusion first and realising that quite a few people actually agree with "Giano et al". The ostrich syndrome strikes again. I did advise at the time, bit of course I'm allowed to know nothing. That says more about the Arbcom than it does about my friends and I. If they try and sanction me for anything more than three reverts then they know they are on a very sticky wicket - as it will be false and crooked and of course for accepting a case of this size for just three reverts makes them again look rather silly. So who is to be the scapegoat/s? - Now, I love goats but I'm buggered if I'm going to be one. So you can all see the huge dilemma they have, and of course who got them into this mess? Giano (talk) 08:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

From my point of view: We have, fact #1: an edit war with nine editors. One of them used admin tools to try to win. One broke 3RR. Then we have fact #2: people saying that the admins.irc channel has never been a place where bad behavior is tolerated, and Giano privately e-mailed a log to any who said that. Those are the facts. However, a previously unheard of editor who seemed to come out of (and go back to) nowhere lodged an RfAr saying that Giano was not following policy in giving out the logs. Mysteriously, ArbCom took the case.

It was lightning quick for me to point out that there is no policy on how to hand out logs, and there is no policy on Wikipedia forbidding even making them public, that we've been through this already. Woosh! The case is still accepted, but now on no grounds. Seriously. The complaint was gone, but a case is going. There's one sign of doom for the case.

Next, we have the edit war as the only potential case, or determining that ArbCom has power to control the en.admins.irc channel. The case was, hypothetically, commanded by Jimbo who said that ArbCom did have control. Well, that was news to everyone, but it makes mud out of dirt, because now ArbCom has been commanded to work out how they control en.admins.irc and to rule on the behavior there (so it won't be worked out on Wikipedia pages).

In usual cases, "proof that other forms of mediation have been tried" is required, but, in this case, no one has asked, and, oddly, no one has considered the fact that the edit war (remember the edit war? that's the case we're left with) had one "side" (those wanting change) trying to get dialog on the article talk page, and no communication whatever in any form, either on talk pages or article talk pages from the people lodging the complaint.

So, ArbCom has accepted a case that has no complaint left in it. It has been ordered to do something that it is resolutely refusing to address, and it is supposed to rule on the bad behavior of people who were trying to get dialog and who were trying not to violate policies.

Is it any wonder that it can't and won't do anything? All it can do is indict itself, insult long standing users, and make its members look really arrogant and really unwise. Geogre (talk) 12:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The curent case can now be summed up "It should also be noted that to say that Bishonen was targetted rather ignores the time she spent dancing around in front of Tony with a target strapped to her chest [11]. Yeah, hundreds of women go out of their way to attract and deserve abuse - I seem to have heard that before somewhere - are the Arbs letting the owner of this vile and disgusting quote run loose? I'll check back in a moment. Giano (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep he's still posting away unchecked. Perhaps now other editors are begining to realise why all faith in the Arbcom has gone. This case is centred on just such insult and comment, and yet is is being allowed to continue even here on Wiki by a flawed and failing Arbcom. Perhaps others will now understand why I and others feel this cannot be allowed to continue. Giano (talk) 20:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Was I the only one to catch the irony of him uttering the above statement and then going on to mention how others were engaging in "deeply unhelpful hyperbole"? Am I the only one on that page who knows what hyperbole means? --Tex 20:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's only deeply unhelpful hyperbole when the "bad" people do it. Lawrence Cohen 20:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

But, you see, Snowspinner isn't being hyperbolic, because he means it literally, I guess. Other people say that being called "arsehole" and "problem user" on IRC is bad, and Snowspinner says that's hyperbole, while, obviously, the victim must have really wanted it -- why else would she object to it? If we forget the reference to chests for a moment, I like the "strapped to her chest" language where he wants to imply that Bishonen in the admins.irc channel is a suicide bomber, while Tony (not an admin) there is just the fool who got too close. This betrays such a truly, deeply, disgusting apishness as to be unforgivable, literally. One thinks of calling for respiradol. Geogre (talk) 21:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oh well he obviously regrets it now [12] they always do when challenged and caught. what a pity the Arbcom as a united body did not have the guts to challenge such a remark. That says as much about them as it does about Sandifer really. Giano (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

He regrets it enough to rewrite it as if there had never been such a statement or to remove the thread so as to pretend that he never was so vile. How very Bush administration of him. Geogre (talk) 21:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I will not be editing any more this evening. I am just thoroughly disgusted by the Arbcom for allowing such a situation to develop. They knew what they were doing, they have just been siting back and watching the entertainment. They are as much a disgrace as Sidaway and his mates. I am too angry to edit at the moment. It's certainly not me that needs to be sent packing. I hope they are examining themselves in that sacred mailing list. In the morning I hope to see some resignations. Giano (talk) 21:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And I hope to see an end to the war in Iraq in the morning, but I think we are both doomed to be disappointed. Seriously, if the ArbCom was actually looking at itself or honestly examining the problems that lead to this latest debacle, the case would already be closed. Geogre said it quite well above, and the case has come to a stand still because the issues they originally wanted to pursue are no longer viable. Some brave Arb is going to have to step up and have the courage to put down actual and meaningful findings of fact and remedies, or like so many other recent cases, this is going to come to a sad, sputtering end with admonishments for everyone to play nice and no substantive or meaningful decisions. AniMate 22:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wentworth Castle

Since I've invoked Sir John Vanbrugh's name I thought I should alert you and the ArchHist Lurkers here to a very much expanded former limping stub, which would be improved by many eyes and hands. Do you know this house, which is only a name to me? How about the wainscoting designed by James Gibbs in the picture gallery? --Wetman (talk) 05:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Funnily enough, Yes I do. I will add a little later today, if the good lord spares me. Giano (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah a great expansion Wetman. You seem to have the all information I have too. I have added a couple of 19th cent prints but cannot find anymore information - will keep looking. Giano (talk) 18:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent harmonious improvements! This was painlessly done. Thank you Giano. --Wetman (talk) 20:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Techy point

re. this. Isn't the advice to get an admin to do a 'history merge' rather than pasting in your work from userspace? --Joopercoopers (talk) 11:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:How to fix cut-and-paste moves --Joopercoopers (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

probably but if you are the only editor, and you do not care for others seeing your bad spelling and copyediting then there is no harm, but if someone else has made an edit then you must get a history merge. Giano (talk) 11:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

On behalf of The Cabal™, I can confirm Giano's right here; as long as he's the only contributor to the article he can do what he likes with it without violating GFDL. — iridescent 19:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Not to worry I expect all my work soon to be deleted as a banned editor. woe woe woe.Giano (talk) 19:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Exploding Houses'

With regard to your article in development, a good source is "Lost London" by Hermione Hobhouse (Macmillan, London 1971). Contains a great deal of detail about the many grand homes of the aristocracy which were demolished in the 18th and 19th centuries to make way for an expanding city. There was an American edition published by Weathervane Books of New York in 1971 (ISBN 0517167026). Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. That book may be useful for the sequel - if there ever is one. The present page because of size is limited to houses in the countryside demolished during the 20th century. I may do a whole series but first I have to try and get episode 1 finished. For those reading my FGTFA one of the disadvantages of writing in user space is there is never the necessary kick up the ass to finish a page. Giano (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection of Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision

On 17 January, following a series of edits to Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision, User:FloNight protected the page and added the following in an edit summary: "I protected the page from all editing until the case is closed or edits all agree to make all productive comments about the proposed ruling and not other editors". Flonight has not left any further messages as yet, so I am posting this message to all those who edited the page in this period, and asking them to consider signing this section at Flonight's talk page indicating that they will abide by this request. Hopefully this will help move the situation forward, and enable the talk page to be unprotected (with any necessary warnings added) so that any editor (including those uninvolved in this) can comment on the proposed decision. Thank you. Carcharoth (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I must have edited that page less than anyone else, I shall certainly not be editing it again. I am rather selective about the company I keeep. Giano (talk) 07:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

What's more, "stop talking about users" is a fine thing, except Snowspinner was doing nothing but talking about character, mindset, intentions, etc. He was doing this in a clumsy effort to focus on "people who need to be punished in the name of prevention" at arbitration. This is because there is no defined case. There are no facts under dispute, because there is no complaint that has any definition, so no one can talk about anything but users. FloNight's protection is, therefore, at least poorly framed. If it kept Snowspinner from trying to cover up his frightful insult, then it's good, but if it keeps anyone from getting that damned case closed, with apologies to me and Bishonen and you, then it's not a good thing. (And I agree with you, Giano: such continually inflammatory "defense by attack" from Snowspinner is worthy of its own case.) Geogre (talk) 12:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Carch is doing his best and what he thinks is right and helpful. Just as I did when I added the truth to that bloody page. I had no idea that any Wikipedia pages were owned by anyone. It seems no-one else did either. I am still amazed that anyone reverted my edits, especially the one saying that the Arbcom had no control over #admins. That fact had been stated by the Arbcom so many times. Female editors have been insulted in that channel by a non-admin - so what was wrong with saying so? Now women are insulted on Wikipedia too, and few seem bothered. I am not a great defender or champion of women's rights most of the women I know are quite capable of doing that for themselves. However, all people wherever they are, and whoever they are have a basic right to be treated honourably and decently. If the Arbcom won't stand up for that basic right, then it must fall to others to do so. I regret nothing! I am becoming increasingly tired of repeating myself and being portrayed as the villain here while simultaneously trying to do what is right. I've reached a stage now where I only feel I am here to stop the pages I edit sinking into the mud - perhaps that in itself ought to tell me it is time to go - I don't know what to do at the moment, I'm sick of it all. If I were on the Arbcom I would be considering my position - but they are not. So it falls to us here to consider our own positions, it seems the Arbcom give us a choice - put up or shut up! I'm not very good at either. Giano (talk) 13:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

No question about Carch. I wasn't impugning him at all. I was questioning the language of the protection, and now I have gone farther. Geogre (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Geogre. :-) I think AniMate put it well above:

"Seriously, if the ArbCom was actually looking at itself or honestly examining the problems that lead to this latest debacle, the case would already be closed. Geogre said it quite well above, and the case has come to a stand still because the issues they originally wanted to pursue are no longer viable. Some brave Arb is going to have to step up and have the courage to put down actual and meaningful findings of fact and remedies, or like so many other recent cases, this is going to come to a sad, sputtering end with admonishments for everyone to play nice and no substantive or meaningful decisions." - AniMate

One of the problems I think ArbCom has is institutional inertia (which is usually an advantage, except when there is a need to restore confidence). It was originally set up with the three tranches in order to avoid radical change (I think). The trouble is what do you do when radical change is needed? Newyorkbrad may have been elected with a huge amount of support, but he is only one voice among 15 (more in fact, when you include the retiring arbitrators and the past arbitrators who can post to the mailing list). The input of new blood to the ArbCom may not truly be felt until the retiring arbitrators finish the cases they are involved with. Also, while I understand the arbitration committee want to be able to consult past arbitrators on past cases and for advice in general, I think one hugely symbolic act they could make would be to restrict arbcom-l to just the current arbitrators, and have an emeritus mailing list that is for past and current arbitrators, with cross-posting between them as necessary. Maybe it will happen, I don't know. Carcharoth (talk) 00:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You do know who the list manager is for that mailing list, don't you? Of course it would be child's play to set access to the mailing list to "archive" for the former arbs (that would mean being able to read once a week or once a month) or to set for read-only. However, there is the additional worry about those archives, which appear to be rather full of slanderous statements, given the reaction to Giano's vote total. This case is worse than the Dreyfus Affair (Bishonen's user page bears a quote from our article on Dreyfus), because the "charge" that was supposed to justify arbitration (not ruling) vanished before acceptance. In effect, it was a case that was accepted without a case, and, of course, without any attempts at prior mediation. This is in addition to the fact that it has now gotten tied up into two things that are absolutely out. One is that they have set themselves (foolishly) the task of a content dispute (to say that someone has made bad edits (not vandalism) to David Gerard's vanity page, they have to make a content ruling about the RIGHTVERSION). The other is that they have to rule about how to resolve IRC disputes. They shouldn't do the first, and they won't do the second, and they are making pronouncements without any findings or reasoning on either one. Basically, this case is logical sepuku. They should apologize and close the thing. Geogre (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, unless the arbitrators set up their own mailing lists, not much can be done about Gerard running that one. I said it would be symbolic only. Maybe you are right, though, in that the mailing list should be managed by a current arbitrator. Anyway, have you seen Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision? Oodles of unanimity there and some interesting changes. Scroll down to the "Working Group" bit. That could either be very good, or very, very bad. Carcharoth (talk) 03:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brilliant

Wish I'd thought of this. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Western Chalukya arch

Hi Giano. Wanted your opinion on some edits to the section "Temple deities".

• A part of what was in "Temple deities" has been moved up by one section, to the last two paragaphs of "Sculpture" sub-section, starting with In what was a departure from convention...... This was done because it pertained to deity sculpture in detail. I am inclined to believe this is a good move. In fact I have divided the "sculpture" section into three sub-sections, "figure sculpture", "deity sculpture" and "miniature towers" for ease of reading.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Another part of "Temple deities" has been moved into "Apprecitation" section and sub-titled "Notable temples". What do you think of this?. I had originally put it in the Temple deities section because it discusses deities, their general details without going too deep into sculptural issues. It also discusses deities other then Shiva and Vishnu that the Chalukyas built temples for. I feel that section was better of in the original location.thanksDineshkannambadi (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have made a couple of minor changes which make the prose a little more concise. You could probably find a few more places where you could do this. To be honest I think you could keep nit-picking for ever, and doubtless some will. I think it is there already at FA level. Nothing on Wikipedia is ever truly complete as its always changing. Giano (talk) 11:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I am now looking forward to writing three more articles on distinct medieval architectures from Karnataka state, South India. But ofcourse, this effort will take time and few more trips to India and lots of reading and researching. I am glad you are around to encourage and appreciate.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Wentworthcastleside.jpg

Hi Giano! Interesting image... what's the provenance of it, do you know? The description on en could stand a note as to where the image comes from, I should think. Also, once that's cleared up, do you have any major issue with the image being on commons so that when the article is translated into other langs the image can be used? ++Lar: t/c 23:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a steel engraving from Jones's Views of the Seats, Mansions, Castles &c, of the Noblemen and Gentlemen of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland... in six quarto volumes (London, 1829-30). Volumes i-iii covered England. Jones planned a bigger venture of which this was to be part, a Jones' Great Britain Illustrated. Never came to fruition. Jones & Co premises in Finsbury Square, London, was "The Temple of the Muses": this quite remarkable establishment begun by James Lackington and sold to Jones & Co. is illustrated here in an etching-aquatint with hand colouring. And here's the exterior. It burned down in 1841. The Wikipedia article on James Lackington deserves to be improved. Perhaps Lar would work up the hints given here, and we'll all pitch in to help...--Wetman (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the image over to Commons, I confess I fudged the "where did it come from" bit a bit. see Commons:Image:Wentworthcastleside.jpg and feel free to correct me if needed. ++Lar: t/c 23:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

OK I also uploaded interior and exterior views of that "The Temple of the Muses" booksellers, added them to the Lackington article and piled up some potential sources on the talk page of it. Lackingtons' autobiography (which I believe he wrote himself!) is available on Google Books for those interested enough to plow through it. The chap seems enterprising enough but not really my cup of tea. ++Lar: t/c 00:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pena Palace

Hello Giano. I visited the Pena Palace this afternoon and, as expected, here are a few pictures I took at my favorite place in the whole of Portugal. Hopefully they will draw your interest into this palace and consider expanding its article (or stub disguised of an article, if you will).

From the road to the palace.	North side.	Clock tower.	Front.
The Triton window.	Yellow tower.	Arches.	Clock tower.
Back terrace and view towards the Atlantic.	Terrace.	The Moorish minaret.	Going down, looking upwards.

For the first time I went inside the palace (mostly due to a mistake of three palace guards who for some reason thought that I was with a guided group of tourists passing nearby. They practically ordered me to join them and go inside, before I could explain that I hadn't paid for that access). Anyway, this time I wasn't as lucky as I was at the Queluz Palace. Surveillance is harder to avert so I couldn't take many pictures inside. But now that I know my way around, I'll have better luck next time.

Chapel.

Noble Room.

Kitchen.

Also for the first time, I visited the immense park surrounding the palace. Exploring Pena Park is quite a relaxing, yet thrilling experience. Particularly the fern garden, it makes you feel like you're in the Cretaceous. Some pictures of Pena park below:

Temple of the Columns.	The Queen's Table, one of the Queen's favorite spots.	Shells Pond.	Fern Garden.‎
Fern Garden.	Fern Garden.	Bird Fountain.	Lake Valley, five lakes to where flow all waterways in the park.

Hope you like this. Best regards, Húsönd 02:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Holy smokes, Husond, you have certainly managed to get some beautiful pics there. Some surely should be put up for QI or even FP on Commons... it looks like it was a very gorgeous day for taking pictures today... wow. ++Lar: t/c 03:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I did in fact nom one for FP on Commons, and I also asked my dear Epouse to categorise and wfy the information which she is working on as I write this. ++Lar: t/c 04:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Amazing photographs Husond - they need a FA to go with them. I wonder if the Arbcom have a fighting fund to spring content-editors, such as yourself, from prison when arrested in the cause of Wikipedia's mainspace articles. I very much hope someone can one day write a page to do justice to them. At the moment I have no enthusiasm at all for writing for Wikipedia so I'm having a break from it all. Giano (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand your renewed frustration, and hope that you overcome it soon. Frustration is much easier to stomach if you just eat small, well seasoned portions of it. Drink generous amounts of the praise you constantly receive in order to balance pH. If symptoms persist, try Arbcom-seltzer. You may also remember that you don't have just enemies, but also many friends. :-) Best regards, Húsönd 20:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Highlanders (rugby) peer review

Hey. I've been struggling to get any comments at my requested peer-review of Highlanders (rugby). I was wondering if you would be able to spend a few minutes reading through the article and adding any comments or suggestions here? Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 06:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, I'm not really editing at the moment. Just go straight to FAC with it - it looks fine, they will sort any minor problems there. If you must PR it - then ask the Arbcom to review it, they seem to have little to usefully occupy their time - the mainspace interest will be an interesting novelty for them after all the private chatting. Giano (talk) 19:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Who cares? Giano (talk) 21:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I was rather interested in that theory - I've heard it a lot - and I wondered what the evidence actually was. So here's some initial findings. Of the 15 current arbs 8 have userpage writing brags - many have impressive credentials:

• Blnguyen - 7 FAs, 164 DYK
• FloNight - here
• FT2 - impressive
• Kirill Lokshin - 5FA
• Newyorkbrad - 4DYK
• Paul August - 1FA and impressively
• Sam Blacketer - 25+ DYK
• FayssalF impressive list of creations

• Thebainer 3FA and countless more [13]

Now, I suspect some of the others will also have impressive contributions - but are more modest. (And, you'll agree, having FAs etc is not the be all and end all of being a content writer.) Certainly, few arbs have the impressive record of the like of yourself, but then you are pretty well in the .01% of elite content contributors. But I'd certainly have to conclude that serious writers are very well represented amongst arbs. Indeed whilst non-content grunt work can probably get you through RfA, it seems that the community tends to choose content contributors to serve on its arbitration committee. I certainly think your claim "there are those of us who write, those of them who rule", is simply not supported by the facts. Unless you are implying that only the elite few of multiple FA writers are qualified to rule. Now, my research here is superficial, and can perhaps be rebutted otherwise.--Doc^g 22:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm afraid you have misread me Doc. if you look again I say those who serve those that rule. I am referring to those in the chat rooms of IRC who pop out to gain adminship and only pop out again to do the bidding of their masters. I think you will find there are quite a few of those. Talking of DYK type editors, and you being such an expert, does JPGordon contribute in that department? Giano (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You seemed to be suggesting that there were three groups - "those of us who write, those of them who rule, and those of them that serve those who rule". But anyway, I tend to agree that we have too many admins passing RfA with no significant content work whatsoever (and that's even setting a low bar). Indeed I've been a lone voice opposing them recently. It would be interesting to see whether those who "serve the masters" or those who tend to agree with you are most prone to having few content contributions. I wouldn't presume the answer to fall either way.--Doc^g 22:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Well don't keep being the lone voice, or you may find yourself walking with a very nasty limp amd singing alto. Giano (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to vote on RfA after closely looking at contributions too, and generally oppose those with nary a GA or DYK - I dislike the idea of a schism, jeeze, the work isn't that sprcialised that we need specialists surely. Having admins with no article writing experience is risky, especially at AfD and some of the debates arising there I feel. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We shall have an entire choir singing contralto before the month is out at this rate. Giano (talk) 22:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think looking for GAs and DYKs is just crappy instruction creep. One needs to look for some article contributions regardless of any pursuit of baubles. I didn't know what DYK was when I was sysopped. Admin specialism is fine - but at least some familiarity with content writing is essential. Indeed all the evidence suggests that if people have the type of eloquence and clear thought that makes them effective in policy debates and dispute resolution then they will be reasonable writers too. Admins without those skills are fine if they stick to the mindless gruntwork - they are not fine when they get out of their intellectual depth otherwise.--Doc^g 23:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It's good if you're pressed for time. Not so much DYK but GA and FA require the person to exhibit some degree of diplomacy or collaboration. Choir...hmmmm..alalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallaalal...(my best impression then) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

People acting out of their intellectual depth? On wikipedia? never.....(I'll turn off sarcasm now) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The triumph of mediocrity. Anyway, I'm waiting to get my balls crushed here--Doc^g 23:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Brags on a userpage don't impress me much (yes, I do it, but it's not how I want to be judged). I could have 40 DYK's instead of 4 if I'd heard of the DYK process a few months earlier, but that's neither here nor there. I do have to confess that my content contributions have dried up dramatically since I became an administrator, which is precisely what I vowed would not happen. I think I'm going to have to promise here to have an article on FAC by the end of February, so that people can nag me and shame me until I get around to doing it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you think there will be anybody left by then, who cares enough about FAs to do the nagging? Giano (talk) 23:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I beleive the expression used by young people today is LOL [14]. Giano (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup. Sorry, I am just amazed at the widescale slash-and-burn by editors some of whom contribute nothing to mainspace outside merging and deleting material going on at present....speaking of schism between writers and others. And when they hover around AfD and policy pages the fun really starts...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Since this is Giano's page, I shall speak with the freedom that Giano represents and demands; Bollocks, sysopping is all about clerking, supporting, and doing the chores that leave the writers to the freedom of producing articles - if the admin to be has some experience of article writing then they have some insight to the needs of said editors; but adminning is primarily a sordid little task of process, revision, tidying, checking, referring and all the tedious shit that shouldn't encumber the editor. That's it, simply. Human nature, being what it is, means that sometimes admins feel underappreciated (is there a Obvious Typing Mistake Rectified Without Fuss Barnstar? - because until just now I deserved several) and get a bit testy when those editors who are allowed the luxury of not needing to know that the wheels need oiling from time to time start taking potshots at the lack of "contributions" of those whose talents and energies are utilised in servicing (and, yes, regulating - because the writers cannot be bothered with such mundane things unless it directly involves them) the needs of the community. Oh, yes, there are those who are going to be more enthralled with the effects of wielding the (damned slight) powers that are conferred by the extra buttons, as there are those who believe that the mop is just another bludgeon to use in their quest to maintain their point of view in the Wikipedia. However, I would suggest - cos I can't be fucked to find any data to back up this claim - that the ratio of so inclined sysops to POV orientated or SPA editors is even less than the general admin/editor balance.

Y'know what my general criteria when reviewing RfA candidates is? Communication! Are their talkpages (article and userspace) anything close to their article/project space count? Do they always use edit summaries? I am not interested whether they have lovely shiny articles with an FA or GA badge on them - since there are plenty of people with perfectly sound reasons for voting yea or nay on that basis - but whether they can actually commit themselves to that magical concept called "consensus" (hey - alliteration within prose!) and actually pull disparate people together to create this thing they call Wikipedia.

I have voted for you, Giano, because I recognise that ArbCom needs to have a singular view that is different to the singular views that have previously dwelt there - a balance and reaction to some of the positions that appear entranced there. I have supported you in disputes where your contempt (not too strong a term, in context, I feel) for the niceties of convention and practice has permitted the community to examine issues that may have otherwise not been bought to their attention. I have stood in admiration at your bravery and chivalry and loyalty in regard to your passion in defending both your understanding of Wikipedia and those you favour with your friendship. Without your contributions, past, present and hopefully future, this place would not be as good or as noble.

You are, however - in my opinion, for what that is - wrong to berate the individuals of ArbCom for the failings that you perceive. You do not understand process, and you do not understand the working of process, as far as I can tell. You do not see the necessity of taking the middle ground between the angels and the demons, or the need for there to be grey instead of only black and white. As there are editors who are unable to understand why such an insolent and "disruptive" editor as you are permitted to vex the workings of the encyclopedia - and never mind the content - you are unable to see why certain editors are allowed to continue editing when you believe their conduct renders them unsuitable to remain here. They remain because you remain; it is not them or you - it is them and you or neither. That is what ArbCom do, what the admin cadre do, what the wikignomes and vandal fighters and new page patrollers and the image deleters and all those other useless lackeys who don't put more than a few words once in a while to article space do. They give you, and your friends and colleagues, and even your opponents, the base on which you produce your work and even the framework against which you hang your complaints and harangues. We (or I - because I think there are going to be a lot of red faces when they read this drivel and realise I am lumping them in with me) do not ask for your praise or thanks, just an acknowledgement that we are all working together, however imperfectly, toward the same general goal... can somebody remind me what that is again? Oh, yeah... that!

Sorry, Giano, but it needed saying by somebody who remains on your side (whether you feel you need it or want it or not) but your otherwise excellent stance as regards the need for continued reform of Wikipedia and its functions/institutions is getting a little vexatious when you begin questioning the desire and motivations of the resource pool that supplies the admin/bureaucrat/steward and other lackeys that also contribute to the place. Call out the individual for the particular mistake, by all means, but please don't diss that group for being what they are - ultimately we are only a reflection of what the community believes is required.

Thank you. Mark. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• For the 1000th time I am not referring to the 100s of Admins who work hard around the place, for God's sake most of my friends are admins. I am referring to that very vocal community of Admins who only leave their chatroom to log in and give somebody a kicking. Giano (talk) 10:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah... I suppose that is the problem of rhetoric, what gets left out... Can I just say that the incidence of some individuals appearing within some of the functions of Wikipedia, and even of their influence there, does not mean that the function is broken, in my opinion, and leave it at that? LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Nice to see 'LessHeard vanU new found spirituality, especially after he spent and enormous amount of time assembling a huge amount of irrelevant evidence regarding the editing of a particular article demonstrating his lack of understanding of the editing process:presented by LessHeard vanU This resulted in the Arbitration comments from link give below and the comments in bold:
• Please note:Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zeraeph/Proposed_decision#Discussion_by_Arbitrators in which your # Gross incivility by administrator LessHeard vanU which evidence suggests was not an isolated incident. Also misuse/misunderstanding of the term "vandalism". I'm concerned by these basics. However valuable a forthright manner may be, civility is expected of all users, especially administrators. Hopefully LessHeard vanU can take note of this necessity as it's meant, a reminder.

However, this resulted in no consequence for LHvU, unlike the mere editors involved. Better he stick with his mop than waste everyone's time by precipitating another arbitration, then collecting irrelevant and time-consuming Evidence. Mattisse 18:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)...erm..gosh. do you wanna write a GA or FA then....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting discussion on "old" sources

You and some of the kind readers of your talk page may take interest in the discussion here. Specifically, the exchange ongoing between Francis and I on the use of "old", "dead", archaic or hard to find sources. Lawrence § t/e 23:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, the Arbcom don't like me expressing opinions in Wikipedia space. I had better not give an opinion in case I am vicimised by them. Giano (talk) 07:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prince's Palace of Monaco

I'm noticing that some folks are doing odd things with the refs on this article, and I do recall that there was something unusual in the way that they were set up at the time (two sources with the same name?). Can you motivate yourself to take a look and/or explain the situation on the talk page? Greatly appreciated. Risker (talk) 04:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Can't work out what he is doing, seems to have removed a reference. Someone else will sort it out I expct. Giano (talk) 07:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opificio delle pietre dure

Would you mind casting your eye over my rather embarassing attempt at Italian translation of here? Actually, the English could probably do with a going over too, if anyone's so minded :-) Joopercoopers (talk) 11:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I always thought the commessi in opere di commessi were the bits of stone being assembled, rather than the assemblers.--Wetman (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, if they are, then we've got it wrong at pietra dura too - "opere di commessi (approximately, "Works of the commisariat")" - which is quite likely of course on wikipedia :-) I'll go and read a book.....--Joopercoopers (talk) 23:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Is commesso the singular? Both this article from JSTOR and this from Britannica refer to commesso as a synonym for pietra dura work. Giano - what's your view? --Joopercoopers (talk) 13:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed decision

Please don't edit the proposed decision page. Thatcher 19:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I will not be so insulted by anyone,now you revert that straight back! Giano (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI he is referring to a television commercial shown in the United States. [15] [16] I expect he is expressing that he thinks this proposal is not strong, or "hefty", enough for his liking. I don't think it is in reference to you, personally. Rockpocket 19:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a whole bloody world outside of the USA - some people would do well to remember it! Giano (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears that Fred is suggesting that the remedy is wimpy, "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a wimp" "A timid or unadventurous person" because you are a "bull in a china closet". If you do not like the reference, please take it up with Fred. Thatcher 19:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is just typical of the ignorance that anyone not from the USA has to combat on Wikipedia. Sadly, such tolerance does not appear to work in reverse. Giano (talk) 19:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, being the clerk on that arbcom case, I know it is your job to ask Giano nicely not to edit a page he should not be editing. However, color me surprised when I went to Fred's talk page to see what nice message you sent him and saw nothing from you. Surely you don't approve of this edit whereby Fred calls Giano a "bull in the china closet," a "disruptive personality" and a "bad apple"? If Giano cannot edit that page to defend himself, surely Fred shouldn't be baiting Giano on the proposed decision page. It is your job to ensure we have decorum on those pages, how about leaving Fred a nice message asking him not to call people names? SGT Tex (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oh, Giano

I was going to leave you a message about Lawson (I e-mailed and it bounced back. It'll be saved at FAR—it really is web-based, AFAICS, and I'll do it myself, even if it takes a month or two).

And then I noticed the above thread. Do you want to be banned? That's neither rhetorical nor aggressive. I think maybe you do want to be banned—a last burst of POINT, so to speak. Editing Proposed decision is just providing a reason for arbs to agree to hardlines. They're just people, after all (I don't buy the cabal nonsense—if a cabal existed, Wikipedia would work better.) But even someone sympathetic is going to think "wtf do we do?—well, ban from this namespace, I guess." It will be horrible to enforce some of the remedies being discussed.

But you don't want to be banned from anywhere, right? I think you don't want to be. You talk a lot about the mainspace (and have contributed in kind). Do them one better and only contribute to it. Do it for a month—just mainspace, of your own accord—and who can argue with you? Offer it, and abide by it. Just a thought. Marskell (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think when we have reached the stage we have now, where we have Bauder (the head, and most senior Arb) trolling me (remember that is a word I hardly use) on the decision page itself, with the Clerks warning me off for responding, I think all gloves have now to come off, what few niceties that remained have to be cast aside. Now, only the naked and very unattractive truth, about the Arbcom, is evident for all to see. I would not trust any of the old ones further than I could spit them. The rest of you can make your own choices. I think we deserve better. Giano (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Giano, I think you've made your point. Fred has made his point. Please, I beg you, leave it for now. Stop editing the Proposed decision page. Let others have their say, and calm down. Please. Carcharoth (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Que? I have not edited it for at least half an hour, and then it was only to propose it for speedy deletion, I don't know why i did not do that months ago, such a sensible move. Have no further fear "Wimpy" is going to bed. what a shower. Giano (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'm going to post to the Proposed decision talk page to try and head off any further reaction. Please accept what I say there in the spirit it will be said in. It is purely trying to calm things down - if you disagree with what I say, please come to my talk page first. Carcharoth (talk) 00:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked [17]

I'm sorry, I have blocked you for 8 hours for continuing to edit Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision‎. You know you shouldn't; you are doing to prove a point; you have been asked to stop. Thatcher 07:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• I aked several times for the offending comment to be removed. It was left there as a deliberate act of spite. It seems it is quite all right for Americans to use language, and insults, which editors on this side of the Atlantic find offensive but not the other way around. Thank you Thatcher for clarifying that. I would rather be blocked for 8 hours then let "you lot" think I had given up on the Arbcom's offensive behaviour. You have the power, I have none. Giano (talk) 07:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You are not sorry in the least. SashaNein (talk) 13:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Raising points in future - an offer

Giano, can I make you an offer? You frequently make some good points, but have sometimes raised them in the wrong way, or a way that causes drama and makes it less likely that the points you raise will be addressed (or even if they are, not without collateral damage). Could I ask whether you would consider making such points on your talk page first, and then see what others think? I often agree with you, and I could maybe suggest ways to make your points more effectively (or make them for you if I agree with you), and I think others could as well. I'm not trying to stop you making any of your points, but I am suggesting that anything that you feel outraged about might be better handled with a preliminary step like this. Would you consider voluntarily agreeing to work on the "outrage" issues like this for a few months, or even indefinitely if you find you prefer it this way? Carcharoth (talk) 09:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. You have exceedingly important things to say and I do not want them to be overlooked because everyone wants to shoot the messenger. I would be happy to bring forward any points you thought need making that you might be concerned about being able to make in an effective way. Just ask. ++Lar: t/c 17:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Lar, I think I will probably post all my future comments on the subject in a far safer and more friendly forum, a place you might say that I intend to make my own off wiki-chatroom, a place most of us read anyway to find out what is going on here. If my views are to be forbidden here, I have little choice. Giano (talk) 17:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow, a reason to read Wikback! What a great idea. ;-P Risker (talk) 17:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Could just be me, but I think he means a different place, if the recent users there are any indication (Giano apparently missed 666 by 2 users, or so the scuttlebutt has it)... sorry if I blithlely blew past your sarcasm/tongue in cheekness there, Risker :) More seriously, Giano, I don't think your VIEWS are forbidden here... it's just how you sometimes choose to make yourself heard that gives some people heartburn. I'll reiterate, you're often right, and a lot of people know it. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it all rather anglo-saxon-middle-class to suggest our Italian friend here, deports himself in the 'socially required manner' - I'd have thought that a global project might give Latin temperaments some latitude. I've seen Giano accused of disruption for telling an obvious troll she might try the 'fugu' when she was duplicitously claiming to be in Japan. He caught her out, but Mr Bauder and others apparently wanted sepuku from Giano. --Mcginnly | Natter 18:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Far too messy and painful for me McG, anyway I'm far too selfish to commit suicide or hari kiri (or whatever the natives in those parts call it). I don't do social requirements, especially those of the middle classes. One is either bred or illbred in my experience (and that can never be altered). It seems we all expected to curb ourselves unless we are on the Arbcom, then we have carte blanche to be as ignorant and rude as we like. I see the offending page looks set to be deleted (if only people listened to me in the first place) but won't the Arbs look even more silly debating edits to a page that does not exist? This place become more surreal by the moment. Giano (talk) 19:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The Ministry of Magic. Post-teener exiles from MySpace are acting out role-playing personas of great deliberative judgement that no one would dream of offering them in real life. You've been distracted by this far too long, Giano. Drop from your Watchlist all pages that irritate you, or that seem to attract mosquitos, and get back into your creative swing. --Wetman (talk) 20:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That might be an accurate description of some admins (though not all the teenage ones are like that, and some of the adult ones are just as bad), but the arbitration committee, by and large, as far as I can tell, are quite old enough to have never gone near MySpace. Carcharoth (talk) 14:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wetman, you are quite right, I had the two volume work produced by Sotheby's for the Easton Neston Sale (you must get it - it's your dream book) for Christmas. It is full (overflowing, in fact, with 18th century prints and 19th century photographs none of which have ever seem the light of day (well the internet anyway), but how on earth am I suppose to start a page when surrounded by morons intent on me being prohibited from writing it. I'd rather write it and have someone pay me for it, than have yet another page sink into the mud. Twice I have asked by email the "Arbcom" to revert drastic edits to existing FAs in the last week, both times they have failed to respond (perhaps they don't know what a FA is) or perhaps they want to see me and my works in the mud. Sad people. As soon as this current mess is over rest assured a normal service will be resumed. Giano (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

PS: For the non-editing masses observing this page, Wetman is one of Wikipedia's most educated and proficient editors on encyclopedic subjects. You probably won't have heard of him. Giano (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I think I found one of the articles and have (with other editors, in no manner of collusion - we just all know that a link to 1999 isn't helpful to anyone reading a FA) made some efforts to restore to its previous glory. What is it about your articles that attracts so many people to try to rewrite them? Land sakes, I clean up more junk out of them than I do out of the Richard Gere article. Risker (talk) 14:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

...because Giano's thoughts are expressed in flexive sentence structures that relate ideas to one another by means of appositives and dependent clauses, often more than two, or open telescopically in periodic structure, tiring American lip muscles. --Wetman (talk) 00:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AN discussion

Hey, would you mind taking a look at this discussion. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sarvagnya 23:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, more than my life is worth to comment. Ask an Arbcom member, and cut out the middle man. Giano (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Libro d'Oro

Wasn't trying to bowdlerise Wikipedia at all. That line just seems a bit sarcastic to put in a factual article; after all, a stud book is supposed to be for pets and race horses. Moyabrit (talk) 22:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

What on earth gave you that idea? The records of noble pedigree were started to stop heavy intermarriage, in the days before people hung their family trees in their lavatories for the amusement of their guests. The whole thing became confused when the Americans started to publish social registers in the 19th century, but the Almanach and Libro d'Oro had a far more practical use, lets face it no one wants to marry their granny's bastard, by mistake, do they? Giano (talk) 22:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Also because the Church in the early medieval period had a good earner requiring hefty payments for certificates confirming that no relationship of consanguinity or affinity existed between the parties in upper-class marriages (often done retrospectively, when there were several children - potential bastards - just to make it interesting), and also in case a plague etc brought about a claim to the estates of very distant cousins. Johnbod (talk) 00:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do you object

...to this? Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Tavern Your original post was pertinent to the case, although almost nothing that followed was. Please advise if you want anything back to the main talk page. Durova^Charge! 00:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm sure Brad has read it an received the message. I don't think anyone else reads the page. I hope rthey all have monumantal headaches this morning, and I'm not referring to me. Giano (talk) 08:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The scotch, no doubt. What they needed was a good California wine. Cheers, Durova^Charge! 09:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

No way. If malt gives you headache, it's not malt, or something's wrong with your attitude. Kosebamse (talk) 12:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spite, Gullible's Travels and the Arbcom

I see there looks to be some likelihood of this resolution passing [18]. Designed no doubt to prevent their errors and stupidity being publicly pointed out in future. Have the Arbs not yet seen the foolishness of their ways? No doubt the little, non-writing, Admins on IRC will have some kind of competition to see who can be the first to achieve fame by blocking me. Let's face it, fame won't come to them any other way. I'm afraid the Arbs were very ill-advised ever accepting this case. They now seem to want to cause even more mass disruption rather than accept they made a very silly mistake. One cannot really help them to see the error of their ways. However, when an entire case has been based on pure spite and revenge, I suppose one cannot really be surprised at the outcome. Giano (talk) 12:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's insane. "Judged to be an assumption of bad faith?" Can anyone even understand that phrase? Can anyone hope to have it mean something? Can I judge your assumptions? Doesn't that require a crystal ball, Ouija board, and chicken bones? If anyone rushes to achieve such fame, I hope that it, she, or he is willing to explain how it "judged" your assumptions. Also, what if you're right and someone does have "bad faith?" What exactly is bad faith? Is it faith in luck or faith in ArbCom or faith in Buddha? Effective remedies require clean language and clear thinking. I see no evidence of any of those: hence, acceptance is a mark of insanity: ira brevis furore est. Utgard Loki (talk) 15:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ambasciator non porta pena. Chi pecora si fa, il lupo se la mangia. Giano (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Forse, forse. David Fuchs ^(talk) 17:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Determinata verità. Giano (talk) 18:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverting to English for the benefeit of the few who don't speak Italian here, the whole root cause of all the current trouble is here [19]. The only people who refuse to see that are the Arbs. Now I wonder why that is, that they feel this page is more important than the content of the encyclopedia? Giano (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And surprise, surprise within seconds of me passng comment [20] IRCs page is saved for them yet again. Is it any wonder people are losing their patience? Giano (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear and now they are squabbling [21] over who gets to save it. Giano (talk) 19:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Worse. Solumeiras participated in the discussion, but still had the gall to try and close it. That closure would have gone straight to DRV and been overturned. Carcharoth (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I expect the little admins are getting above themselves, and their squeaking is reaching new heights of excitement as the competition organized by the Arbs to see who can be first to ban is opening. Giano (talk) 22:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Giano, do you remember I said last time that I'd say something early on if I thought you were going over the top? Well, I think you are approaching that point again. For the sanity of everyone involved in this case, do you think you could cut down a little bit on the hyperbole and the satirical depictions of Arbcom and #admins? I noticed your responses to Doc glasgow over on that talk page, and you seemed to be one of the last (along with me) to pick up on the fact that he was using a subtle brand of irony (ie. he hasn't really received leaked e-mails from the Arbitration Committee). I read some of what you write and think "funny - but he probably isn't being serious". Well, I'm not so sure now. I mean this in all seriousness - let others fight this battle for you. You have done more than enough. Carcharoth (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you know something? I actually no longer care what anyone on Wikipedia says or does - such is my disgust. That the Arbs and admin's chatroom is placed above content, says far more than I ever can. Giano (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a big and wild place, Giano, as you know, of course. It is perfectly possible to edit for a year and a day without ever getting involved with ArbCom or #admins ever again. Please don't let this case sour you (or others) on the whole Wikipedia experience. Carcharoth (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Giano...relax my feral friend! You are no good to any of us gone. Take a deep breath, count to 11,675,334 and above all do as I say not as I do :-) Fond regards Sarah777 (talk) 01:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I definitely agree with you that some of the project's admins are doing their best to turn Wikipedia into a farce by using their positions to push POV, or by playing power games with each other and regular editors, and the ArbCom and/or Jimbo should be doing more to combat this. But, this is the system that we have. Sometimes, we have to work within it. Cla68 (talk) 01:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent)Well, you may find this an interesting way to start St. Agatha's Day[22]. It is somehow fitting that this aspect of the current brouhaha come to an end on the nameday of a Sicilian saint. Risker (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You know, though, I think there ought to be a dark line between people blowing off steam in their user talk pages and people making "accusations" elsewhere. I hope, if I get irritated, I'm allowed to say, in my own user talk page, "This is the worst piece of shit article I've ever seen" of some article or other, or "That's the biggest back stabbing I've ever seen" of some person, and this should not be understood as going out to molest people. Giano II, on his own user page, has grumbled dramatically, but the Arbs and admins should have nice, big egos and should be able to let it roll off their backs. Is someone who is happy with things going to be "influenced" by someone else's discontent? I don't think so. The most that will happen is that they'll think, "Wow, this person is really discontented." Well, oh la, life goes on. There is too much here about the contents of peoples' hearts, and who the hell knows what lurks there? (Yes, The Shadow knows, but The Shadow ain't an admin here.) Utgard Loki (talk) 15:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian cuisine - left field

Hey Giano, usually as a smug anglophone I can be happy with the dictum Englisch über alles except inthe field of mycology as most anglophones are mycophobes unlike the dedicated mushroom eaters of Italy, France and Germany and points east. Any italian lore that can be input onto Boletus edulis, Entoloma sinuatum or Boletus satanas among others would be much appreciated if you ever partake of funghi. It has been raining +++++ here for a few weeks and we have things popping up everywhere, but 95% of australian fungi are undescribed... :( cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Casliber. I do not write about fungi! I do though have one or two useful recipes up my sleeve, such a pity Bishzilla and Bishonen seem to have sampled them. Giano (talk) 23:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Aah well, unlike just about everything else, there is alot more in other languages than in English and thought you may be interested as a distraction anyway. We do get alot of dried porcini here now (yum) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lest we forget, and I go.

In case you all forget, and I disappear. [23]. Giano (talk) 20:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I hope you don't go. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Me too. Risker (talk) 20:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

ditto. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 Undeleted and unprotected 2 Robert Lawson 3 Don't worry 4 Congregazione dei Virtuosi al Pantheon 5 Hi 6 Western Chaluky arch 7 Rollback 8 You're back! 9 Copy editing 10 Intro to Evo 11 strem of consciousness writing 12 Festetics ecstatic 13 IRC evidence 14 FA guide 14.1 Interjection on why reffing can be really cool sometimes 15 Queen's House 16 ArbCom election 17 Walk off the moccasins? 17.1 The Arbcom case explained for the benefit of the totally confused 18 Wentworth Castle 19 Techy point 20 'Exploding Houses' 21 Protection of Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision 22 Brilliant 23 Western Chalukya arch 24 Image:Wentworthcastleside.jpg 25 Pena Palace 26 Highlanders (rugby) peer review 27 Interesting discussion on "old" sources 28 Prince's Palace of Monaco 29 Opificio delle pietre dure 30 Proposed decision 31 Oh, Giano 32 Blocked [17] 33 Raising points in future - an offer 34 AN discussion 35 Libro d'Oro 36 Do you object 37 Spite, Gullible's Travels and the Arbcom 38 Italian cuisine - left field 39 Lest we forget, and I go. 40 Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC 41 award 42 Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC 43 Caro Giano 44 Cabinet (architecture) 45 Helping the project 46 From Herr Ludwig & I 47 Giano forever 48 Giano forever 49 courtesy of the manic street preachers 50 Tutorial: Getting an article to featured article status 51 List of massacres 51.1 On the subject of ethnic and national edit wars 52 Domandone 53 An analysis of the IRC case 54 We miss you 55 Matthew Brettingham 56 Please come back 57 For what it's worth... 58 Wales Talk Page 59 Insult to all aussies.... 60 Reply 61 Hermm... 62 Well deserved.... 63 Though I too am full of it 64 Welcome Back 65 VK's sockpuppets 66 Blather, frankly 67 Enforement request 68 Time for refreshment? 69 User: !! 70 Lawson 71 Protection at Vintagekits 72 Are 73 London, or London, England 74 Arbcom? 75 John254... 76 Palladian vs Rococco architecture 77 Kannada literature 78 No Doc! 79 Please see here 80 Request for clarification in IRC case 81 How tiresome 82 Your Email 83 Assessment of Little Moreton Hall, Kedleston Hall & Ascott House 84 Oi! 85 We did it, SS Chris is a Featured Article! 86 hello - images 87 Image for deletion 88 Belton House 89 Images for deletion! 90 ANI 91 talk page history.... 91.1 Fools 92 rollback 93 Kannada literature 94 Images again! 94.1 And in other news 95 My edits to your userspace 96 Buckingham Palace 97 Buckingham Palace 98 Palazzo Pitti 99 User:Vintagekits 100 Winter Palace images 101 Protection 102 Vintagekits' user page 103 Is this a trend? 104 RFA thanks 105 Exploding Houses 106 RfAr 107 Request 108 Want to read some articles? 109 Congratulations on another Main Page appearance - Prince's Palace of Monaco 110 WP:AE 111 thank spam 112 Taking my case to the Arbcom 113 Instructions to not add an infobox to Little Moreton Hall 114 Reading over PPofM 115 "Help, help" 116 I have requested an amendment of your civility parole 117 Enfilade 118 Taking my case to the Arbcom 119 "Help, help" 120 So how is your day on the main page? 121 Orthodox Easter 122 Own Goal 123 Sometimes on Random Page 124 Please clarify 125 Something for your spring wardrobe 126 VK terms 127 Bastard pics 128 Carnildo is back 129 Query 130 Mary Seacole 131 Quinta da Regaleira 132 Nice work 133 Gothic Revival monumental architecture 134 Libro d'Oro 135 Antique toilet paper holder

Old messages are at

• User talk:Giano II/archive 1 (2004)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 2 (2005)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 3 (2005)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 4 (2006)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 5 (2006)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 6 (2007)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 7 (2007)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 8 (2008)

Essay: A few thoughts on writing Featured Articles

[edit] award

Au contraire - this is the much more light-hearted original cirteria, as Billy Joel is a much better judge of core articles than Wikipedia:Vital articles....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What? As in we didn't start the fire? lol - really? Heavens! --Joopercoopers (talk) 10:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC

• Sorry, I have nothing to do with Wikipedia any longer, or any thoughts concerning it. Giano (talk) 08:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• I hope you will reconsider and return soon. You have no restrictions placed on you that keep you from being able to fully participate in Wikipedia. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Flo, I've left this message on your talk page, but perhaps it is best to put a copy of my thoughts here as well.

I too wish that Giano would stay and continue to participate in Wikipedia. From the perspective of the encyclopedia, he is an incredibly valuable contributor; from the personal perspective, I have learned a great deal about editing and greatly value the encouragement he has given me. Giano's mainspace edits are legendary, and his contributions on the meta side have significantly improved content and behaviour with respect to "The Troubles," addressing paedophilia-related activity on this site, abusive blocking and transparency here on Wikipedia. His meta positions have been supported by the wide community despite his sometimes excessive zeal; many who "opposed" Giano's election to Arbcom commented that he had the right ideas but his approach wasn't suited to being an Arbcom member. It is difficult to know whether the changes in Wikipedia culture could have been made without Giano's rhetoric and focus on issues. Let's compare the defense of !! and the granting of rollback to non-administrators: Both involved walking very fine lines and pushed the community hard into a new direction, with high-flying rhetoric and violation of WP conventions. Giano got warned for being rude and violating unwritten rules (which remain unwritten, as the community cannot come to a consensus on what those rules are); Ryan Postlethwaite was invited to join a special Arbcom subcommittee.

Just about anyone can make the list of administrators who would be watching every word written by Giano, ready to whack him with a block, whether deserved or not. One snippy comment in a FAR. One snotty response on his talk page. Another Eurocentric allusion that goes over the average American's head. "Obscene trolling: knows German" may well be the standard. Heck, there are several statements in his essay - a poignant and humorous final gift to our community - that would incite some admins to block him. And no AN or ANI discussion, just another report to WP:AE that nobody questions or reads. And if someone does question the block, then we're back to the drama that nobody needs - not the community, not Arbcom, and not Giano either. From that perspective, with such a huge "kick me" sign pinned to his back, who can blame Giano for walking away? Hundreds of others already have. Risker (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Well said, Risker. Why would anyone want to participate here after being singled out and insulted this way? When I look at how other people insult Giano, and how Giano often takes it on board (look at, for example: User_talk:Giano/Exploding_Houses#Sorry where Giano calmly and patiently explains matters after being insulted) I think the charge that Giano is the big problem here (as evidenced by being the only person mentioned by name in the ArbCom decision) is ludicrous. Any "refocusing of enthusiasm" is likely now to be to Wikipedia's detriment. As for the suggestion that Giano was impeding rewriting a policy page, I find that laughable. That page was the way it was for what, a year? It could have been rewritten at any time, and in fact that is what Giano was trying to spur. Could he have done it better? Sure. But let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't see the arbcom decision as being the last thing to happen in this little affair and I think (as I said on my own talk) it's going to end badly. Which is really unfortunate. Will WP persevere without Giano's contributions if he doesn't come back? Yes, but article space will be a poorer place, and we also will miss out on the thoughtful and insightful comments in metaspace. Will Giano get on with life without WP? Probably, if he can actually manage to stay away (it's hard, WP is so addictive). But both WP and Giano will be the poorer for it. ++Lar: t/c 14:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I hope that now that the case is closed that Giano will take the Committee's feedback seriously. As someone that has supported and defended Giano in the past myself, I found myself no longer able to do it because it was becoming a chronic pattern of conduct. Lar, I hope that Giano will follow the example of users like yourself that purposely choose to moderate their language and conduct on site to match our policies. My main concern was that Giano did not indicate that he planned to modify his conduct in the future, and in fact never acknowledged that it was a problem while most other involved parties did so. His choice to continue making provocative edits such as edit warring during the case and like putting the Proposed Decision page up for deletion) are the reason that the case closed with a finding against him and not others. I hope that you and others that he has listened to in the past will encourage him to come back as I feel he has much to offer. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The choice was his to engage in highly provocative behavior that is well outside of policy and in my opinion has impeded the Community from writing a reasonable IRC guideline. Wikipedia is based on the idea that decisions will be made through calm collaborative discussion. It is impossible for that to happen when several editors raise the level of discourse to the point that most thoughtful people give up and walk away. Giano has a history of doing this. My goal is to re-focus his enthusiasm toward supporting our dispute resolution processes to achieve his goals. I opposed remedies that would stop his participation in Wikipedia policy making as I do value his opinion. As a high profile editor he needs to lead by example. Please encourage Giano to return as I feel that Wikipedia will be a better place with him here. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Flo, the problem with this remedy is that it paints a bullseye on Giano's head, when he arguably already had one on it, hence half the problems with the insults and the various blocks (some justified, but some definitely not). In my view -- and I'm sure Giano will not thank me for saying this -- a block would have been preferable, if any sanction were needed, because at least the block would be served then done with. But to leave a poorly defined parole hanging over him for a long time is humiliating, and it's the humiliation that has driven him away, as it was bound to. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Committee made the decision that we thought overall served the best interest of the Community. The majority of the Committee felt that it was the best of several options. It is hard to make a Finding like this against someone that you respect and agree with about many things. But I feel that Giano left us no other choice. Plese encourage him to return. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Committee thought this decision served the best interest of the Community? The Committee was wrong. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 19:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The Remedy arbcom passed was always a poor one. I've criticised attempts to put Giano on civility parole before. The problem with it is it would allow hotheads to block Giano, and at the same time allow Giano (if he chose) to push at the bounds in search of the the drama of an unjust block. The remedy made Giano's departure unfortunately inevitable, and the only thing to do is to give Giano credit that he chose to leave like this, rather than waiting for the drama of being dispatched by a poor blocking decision in the future, which would have been far more disruptive for the community. However, neither will I be too hard on arbcom. Whilst there is an idiotic community minority on one side who want Giano gone or silent, and a minority on the other for whom Giano can do no wrong, most sane people badly want Giano to stay, and will defend his right to express his wiki-views, however, they don't want any more "Franken-Giano"ism. By that I mean Giano's tactic of: 1) using heated and polarising rhetoric 2) painting everyone who doesn't agree 100% as part of the problem 3) assuming that everyone critical of the methods and tone wants to silence the message 4) never admitting any wrong on his own part 5) assuming bad faith of anyone that dares to be critical. Basically, we need Giano to remember that the aim in every dispute is to seek some form of dispute *resolution*, not to wage perpetual warfare. Now, there is simply not any arbcom remedy that can compel that, that can leave Giano free both to edit and to comment, but compel him to comment in a different fashion. So arbcom can either do nothing (which has been what they have done up till now) or pass some unsatisfactory remedy that will doubtless result in him leaving. The only person who could have given a way out here was Giano. Had he indicated at any point that he'd reflect on the widespread criticism of his tactics (a criticism shared even by many who agreed with his messages) I would immediately have called for the case to be closed without sanction and sang "Alleluia". Even now, were Giano to even hint at a desire to proceed a little differently (or just to start doing it), I'd call for arbcom to remove the sanction immediately. Giano, if I can help you find a way back, you only have to ask.--Doc^g 16:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What Doc said. Stifle (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caro Giano

Giano, I probably have no business weighing in here, since we've never been close, but that Southern Belle has an awfully large waistline and eyebrows in desperate need of a serious shaping and waxing, so I have a vested interest in seeing you stay around to replace that picture. How come Raul gets a great physique, and I get bushy eyebrows?  :-))

I went through a singularly unpleasant experience one month ago in an ArbCom case, and as horrible as that experience was (do you 'spose the Arbs understand how awful it is?), I know it was nothing compared to what you've been through. From my read of things, you ended up there partly for defending Bish's honor; it's sad that should be necessary.

I'd really hate to see Wiki lose your writing and your presence. After what happened to me, I doubted for many weeks I would even want to return to Wiki or could find the restored enthusiasm and energy I used to enjoy here. I knew I couldn't come back unless I could find a motivation to continue with joy. Two things made a difference for me and brought me back in spite of the serious shortcomings we all have to deal with on Wiki: friends and a forced break. The bottom line is that, no matter how bad it can be, there are some really fine editors here on Wiki and they enrich my life. I hope the thought of interacting with other editors like Yomangani, who also took a long break and returned with enthusiasm, will help you find a way back to us. Because I was traveling to remote areas with limited internet access, I had a semi-forced break after the ArbCom closed, and that time off was crucial in helping me regain my footing. So please consider seriously taking time off to reconsider, and while you're thinking it over, you may find that the exceptional people you know on Wiki may come to mean more to you than the unpleasant things about The Way Wiki Works. You can always use the WikiBreak Enforcer to give yourself a pre-determined amount of time to think things over. Whatever you decide, I hope you'll be happy and be well. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cabinet (architecture)

The subject may entice you, even though the little start I've made hardly sketches the outlines of the subject. Was a gabinetto always a close-stool or necessary? Was it ever a studiolo? --Wetman (talk) 12:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Helping the project

I just placed this quote on my userpage:

“

...my understanding of the Wikipedia project is that its strength comes from a vast number of people making small changes. However, the process self-selects to self-destruction - to wit, people who have lots of free time get the most power. But those people are usually the ones who are involved in order to gain personal prestige - the antithesis of Wikipedia in the first place. They're experts in the expert-less community. So the community automatically becomes run by unstable people who care more about their personal power than the results. And this becomes impossible to stop, because reasonable people by definition will not be obsessed enough to fight the tendency. And therein lies the doom of a good idea.[1]

”

Not all, or perhaps even most, of the powerful accounts (admins, arbitrators, etc) in Wikipedia are unreasonable people. But, as the Essjay, BADSITES, IRC, Weiss/Overstock.com [25], and other episodes have shown, the few who are unreasonable and in positions of authority, and who seem to enjoy using "private" mailing lists and IRCs to further their personal agendas, often cause immense problems for the project and to those editors who are actually here to try to write quality articles or measurably improve article space in some other way. Giano is helping fight this and is often successful in doing so, to the great benefit of the project.

Notice I said "is" helping fight this, not "was" and I hope that this is still the case. Cla68 (talk) 02:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting thesis, but I'm not sure it is correct. It's "strength comes from a vast number of people making small changes" - now, I think there was some evidence to show that was NOT the case, that the bulk of our contributions (excepting vandalism) was actually by 3-4,000 regulars. I'd also point out that whilst passers-by might fix typos or occasionally contribute an article stub on something they care about, almost all our quality work (GA FA etc) is done by a regular core of "experts". Could this just be that you done like one perceived regular core, because you belong to another perceived one? I say perceived, because I think it is a myth to assume that there are two distinct camps of "writers" and "admins 'experts'". There are certainly some admins that seldom write, but in fact of the influential ones do. I note, for instance, that nearly ALL people that get elected to arbcom have made high-end content contributions.

Why I'm being slightly critical here, is that I think everyone has been far too fast to shout "THEY are the problem" and then engage in rhetorical flourishes to show why, supported by a few meagre anecdotes for evidence. Now, it may well be that we do have a group of people whose net contribution is negative (or more likely could be more positive), but before anyone rushes to that prognosis, I'd suggest some careful and objective research. "my understanding of" is perhaps a poor basis for making sweeping statements, when those statements tend to further polarise the community. And I suspect, admittedly not on clear evidence either, that rhetoric that tends to polarising the community is perhaps the most destructive feature of the recent disputes. Just some thoughts.--Doc^g 09:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't agree totally with the quote either. I think it was more true a year ago than it is now. I'd say that the group of Wikipedians that this applies to is small and growing smaller, thanks in part to Giano's and others efforts. But, it still exists to some degree. Also, what the quote doesn't address, and this applies to your statement that all of the ArbCom members have high-end content contributions, is that some of the "obsessive" Wikipedians aren't seeking personal prestige. They're seeking influence so that they can push their personal POVs easier. There are several admins, at least one of whom is a former ArbCom member, who have developed quite a reputation for pushing and protecting certain POVs in certain subjects. Cla68 (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hang on. I've no doubt that there are some people "seeking influence" to push POV, and the example you cite is particularly notorious (I will not defend that individual). However, I think you are still using anecdote as justification for sweeping generalities and assuming bad faith. Are you really suggesting that most "obsessive" wikipedians are either power-hungry POV pushers or non-writing and problematic? Where is the evidence? As for the assertion that Giano has reduced the number of wikipedians that fall into whatever "problem admin" category you envisage, can you explain how Giano's activity has helped reduce this? Logic? Evidence? I'd say, that one of the problems is that we've had far too many sweeping generalisations that attempt to caricature some problem "group" from a few anecdotes and bad experiences. I'd say that part of the solution is to avoid polemicist rhetoric and stick to calm, balanced, analysis of any problems, explaining why we think this is a problem and assuming that most people want to work to minimise any problems we can specifically isolate. I think we've had enough of divisive partisan paranoia based on poor evidence and analysis with logic jumps.--Doc^g 19:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From Herr Ludwig & I

Here is one of my favorite works of Ludwig Van's. It seems highly fitting and appropriate considering it is about one gallant hero's struggle against tyranny. Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic did it justice, quite unlike what the ArbCom did for you. I hope it helps inspire you to continue the fight in whatever manner you see fit.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 11:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Giano forever

[edit] Giano forever

Meglio un giorno da leone che cento da pecora. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.0.99 (talk) 16:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] courtesy of the manic street preachers

Been natural for once in my life
Now I'll have to swallow some pride
Know that I should never give advice
But it's too late now to say goodbye

Be natural don't want any friends
Be natural come on and hit me again
Be natural I'm repeating myself
Be natural is there anything else

Hiding T 22:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tutorial: Getting an article to featured article status

Hello, Giano. I was asked to write a signpost tutorial about how to get an article to featured article. This is my first draft. It is based on my own page: User:Yannismarou/Ten rules to make an article FA. It is today during writing the tutorial that I first read your own essay, which impressed me I must say. I would be grateful If you had the time to check the draft, offer any comments you would like, check the prose, and propose me any improvements you regard as useful. Thank you in advance!--Yannismarou (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a bit ...late.--Wetman (talk) 00:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of massacres

Giano, there is a "consensus" being manufactured in this critical article (it defines Wikis handling of inbuilt systematic bias). I strongly feel you should read the talk pages; look at the history and I'd appreciate your views on how to proceed or other advice. Regards, Sarah777 (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I think Giano is no longer with us at wikipedia - see IRC. I think Giano didn't take kindly to being shot as the messenger. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Nor would I. I see Derova and Ioeth both have roles in the Wikipedia:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars - wonderful news for anyone expecting an improvement! Sarah777 (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On the subject of ethnic and national edit wars

Giano, maybe you should add prophet to your resume. You saw this coming like global warming too. Yet another example of why you should be sitting on the ArbCom instead of driven away by it! So many of Wiki's problems could be avoided by heeding your sage words. But, alas, being a voice in the wilderness is one of a prophet's occupational hazards.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 06:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Domandone

Perchè non vieni qua a scrivere, se questi idioti rompono le balle? Super Giano (talk) 13:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An analysis of the IRC case

I know you may not be around to read this, Giano, but I wanted to share with you (and who ever else happens to stumble on this page) that Kosebamse has taken a look at the IRC case and posted a very astute analysis at his/her talk page.[26] You are missed. Risker (talk) 15:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] We miss you

I hope you'll come back to us soon, Giano. Raul654 (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey.. please come back. Cant believe you can give up like this and walk away. The project needs you more than they need a dozen trigger happy admins. Please please come back. Take a break if you want.. but please come back. You cant let them run you off like this.. not for wikipedia's sake. Sarvagnya 23:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You speak truth to power; We are less for your absence. I wish you well. --SSBohio 04:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No one deserves the abuse that Giano went through. If he comes back, there will only me more malicious and organized efforts from those with tools to stop him from actively contributing. I support him leaving. Wikipedia is a heavily flawed project that is well on the path to self-destruction. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 16:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You may be right, but leaving the field to the bad guys doesn't help those of us who want Wiki to work. The notion that a vote of 60% is consensus but not a vote is the kind of intellectual cretinism that is dooming this project. Too many Arts Grads and not enough scientists is you ask me! (Apologies to Giano) :-) Sarah777 (talk) 22:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

An over-preponderance of arts grads? really? you must be joking?--Joopercoopers (talk) 23:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes I joke! Sarah777 (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Giano II. I'm not sure if we've met before, but alot of editors here seem upset about your pending departure. I'm curious, who are you & why are you leaving Wikipedia? GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

....an interminable silence follows that question.....Heuston, we have a Godot situation! Sarah777 (talk) 00:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Nay, I just responded on his talk page. Risker (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew Brettingham

An article you've worked extensively on, Matthew Brettingham, is up for FAR. See here. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 00:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please come back

Hey Giano, it is shocking and surprizing to see you have decided to go away. Please re-consider your decision, and do come back. - KNM ^Talk 01:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a brief visit to check the page, thanks to all of you for the very nice messages above. Kosebamse sums things up perfectly. I'm very sad that Bishonen, and Geogre are not/barely editing, and strongly urge them to return, I appreciate their support, but their absence is damaging to the project, and it would please me to see them return, far more than does their absence. I never doubt their loyalty and belief in me, they don't have to prove it. Bishonen has been shamefully treated, but I would love to see her and her style returned.

Sadly, I shall not be returning myself so long as the Arbcom's vicious, spiteful, petty and, above all, planned and manipulative sanction is imposed on me. The very second I even commented on something I did not agree with every squeaking little Admin on IRC would be breathing down my neck hoping for the chance to block - and would do so, at the slightest hint of my ire or displeasure (some of them would even be provoking it) - This would then lead to maximum disruption (as certain Arbs well know, anticipate and hope for). I am as angry, still, as I was a month ago, at the way this project is managed. Most people, at least privately, accept the Arbcom case was a stitch up, from its over rapid start, to its overdue finish. I seriously do not think my behaviour and actions have in any way damaged the project [27], in fact, over the years, quite the reverse. I think the behaviour or certain others achieves that goal far more successfully. I just ruffle a few over preened feathers of some very vain birds, and, of course, point out some unwelcome truths to some other birds with their heads firmly buried in the sand. However, the truth will always emerge eventually, no one can stop that, not even the Arbs.

So, thanks for all the support and the emails, I think I have finally answered them all - Keep on writing, the content of this site is still brilliant and can't be bettered anywhere, and it continues to improve. Who knows - one day I might even be on that bloody Arbcom! Giano (talk) 13:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It's true that I won't edit while Giano is under a humiliating and unreasonable restriction, but I'd like to get it on record that that is not the only reason I've withdrawn from editing at this time. It's only one out of three. The others are what I consider the corruption of the RFAR/IRC process (per User talk:Kosebamse and the dissenting opinion and other commentsof arbitrator Paul August); and also the disrespect and indignities with which the arbitration committee, bodily and in many cases individually, treated myself and my friends. Examples:

• Corruption: Is there any form of "unseemly conduct" described in the final decision principle "Decorum" that Fred Bauder has failed to perpetrate during the process? Such conduct, "including, but not limited to, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, and gaming the system, is stated to be "prohibited", and presumably liable to be sanctioned in some way; but clearly not if an arbitrator is doing it. I wrote to Fred Bauder and upbraided him, but received no reply; a non-responsiveness intolerable from a regular admin, as has been determined in many RFAR's, but, apparently not at the top.

A more significant piece of corruption, because it put the parties in startlingly unjust positions vis-a-vis one another, was that one party to the case, David Gerard, had free access to reading the arbitrators' secret mailing list, and thus knew what they were discussing, what they thought important, etc.; the other parties did not. The collection of excuses that were made for this was a cringingly feeble thing. I wrote an e-mail to arbitrator Paul August, of whose good faith and interest I had hopes, protesting the inhumanity and injustice of this and other aspects of the proceedings. I hoped he would pass it on to their mailing list, but have no means of knowing whether he did (his reply was brief and cool to the point of nullity).

• Disrespect: This was what the intensively studied "Proposed decision" page looked like for weeks on end. Not a lot like the tidied-up final decision, as you can see. Note the way Giano, Geogre and I are locked in its stocks by UninvitedCompany and by means of various careless, thoughtless, incivil comments from arbitrators who call over and over for "civility" from the parties, and pity themselves for being "sick, sick, sick to death" of having to do with these rude users; yet few of them extend a smidgeon of civility to these users. As for empathy, forget it, bury it, and dance on the grave. This protest from a well-known user gives some perspective. Not least in the reaction of (then) arbitrator Mackensen, who calls it a sample of a "hypersensitivity". Doc glasgow, of all people, hypersensitive?--does some frightening petrification of the imaginative and sympathetic faculties happen at the moment users join the arbcom? It looks a bit like it. (They surely shouldn't be on it for three whole years if that's the case.)

Not editing is not merely, or mainly, a demonstration to show my loyalty, Giacomo. Two thirds of it is that, finding myself kicked from the calm waters of "respectable admin" to the maelstrom of "problem user", and having seen from the inside how the top proceedings of our dispute resolution can be conducted, I just never seem to feel like editing any more. I know that you still value, and in some ways, love, the project. You're not really disillusioned about it like me. Well, we both have room to change, possibly.--Bishonen | talk 20:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] For what it's worth...

For what it's worth I think you did the right thing. I hope you come back.

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		I award you this barnstar for doing the right thing and standing up for what is right. Oreo Priest 16:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It's worth a great deal, thank you. Giano (talk)

[edit] Wales Talk Page

You will probably despise me for making the comparison, but in my opinion, yourself and JzG are among the elite Wikipedia editors for a simple reason: when you're not going off the deep end over something that tickles your bonnet, you both have the ability to take a dispassionate view, distill the essence into a very few words, and cover all the points in a readable discourse.

Congratulations on your excellent analysis. I would only have been able to muster "Yawwn" as a comment, you have done much better. Here's hoping you'll be back in force soon - but a calm force. A much wiser 'pedian pointed out to me that if you are getting emotional about something, it's probably better to let someone else deal with it. Again, my great respect for your contributions to Wikipedia, and looking forward to more of the same... :) Franamax (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In the first instance you are quite correct. If you check my history you will see I am completely consistent, always. It is transparently obvious to anyone with half a brain that Wales is innocent as charged, someone just needed to point it out.The charity world can be a very uncharitable place. Nice to see, the loyal Arbonauts, our leading Wikipediams, as usual when required seemed to be conspicuous by their absence, no doubt pre-occupied chatting elsewhere. Giano (talk) 22:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, the "first instance" - does that mean that you do in fact despise me? :)

I have checked some of your extensive history, as I do for all those editors I've found respect for. You are certainly consistent. I think my point about emotionalism still stands.

As regards the "loyal Arbonauts" (and certainly any establishment eventually has "members of the establishment"), their lack of response could be down to another aphorism - "keep your powder dry". Alternatively, they are feeling emotional about the issue, and are heeding that wise advice to let someone else deal with it. In any case, you have taken the lead and pretty much said it all. What more could anyone add other than "what he said!"? Franamax (talk) 22:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

sadly, that is not the loyal Arbonauts usual response to one of my pronouncements, never mind, I'm sure thay have their agendas. No, I don't despise you, I'll forgive anybody a monumental faux pas - once! Giano (talk) 22:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the first step was an intentional pas-en-merde, I'll accept your forgiveness and run off now with head and neck still connected. :) Franamax (talk) 22:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I just read your post on Jimbo's talk page and it certainly is a exeptional analisis, I wish half of the admins could present such honesty when posting their opinions. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, bang on the money. Seriously, if this was an employee in my company it would not make the HR department's radar. Very small beer, and not at all uncommon as growing pains for a tiny organisation whose profile has escalated beyond all imagining in such a short time. Guy (Help!) 23:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Second'd. An excellent analysis, well said. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 01:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks, it was an attempt to prove publicly how as an body we are capable of sorting, knowing and undertsanding our own problems, without cover up. When this is permitted one often sees the problem is not quite as bad as painted.This is certainly the case here. Then just as I think we are one step forward, we go two steps backwards [28]. Giano (talk) 07:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I think you've got this one right. Stifle (talk) 11:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, this ex-arbonaut (are there suits?) felt like keeping his head down because he's had enough drama to last a lifetime. Thank you for what you said. Mackensen (talk) 03:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think time will prove you lucky to be "ex" Mackensen. I suspect now the crisis is passing, and Wales has rightly survived, people will begin to wonder, why the Arbs, normally so rapid and keen to investigate every wrong doing, and tampering with a page, were so silent. The experienced and vindictive ones named at the top of this page were particularly silent. I think when we look at the last few days with the benefit of hindsight, and we will, it won't be to their credit. For the first time ever, the Godking (I think we can stop calling him that now) needed some serious help, his highest body of advisors either failed to give good advice or were chattering elsewhere. Perhaps even, they did not wish to be seen on Wales's side. This whole thing has been nothing but a board room battle, not even a particulary dirty one, compared to some I have seen. Over and end of story - for some. Giano (talk) 08:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Insult to all aussies....

Now I am really unhappy...what is wrong with Australian Chardonnay??? XD Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No no no, please don't be insulted, I love Australians all of them, every single one, but it's the wine, like the Germans you keep the best, and send what you don't want over here. Now the Kiwis on the other hand, their whites can't be bettered, and they are very near Australia aren't they? Giano (talk) 19:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of, where is Cape Mentelle? That's very nice. Giano (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

'tis in a very lovely part of Australia called Margaret River, a nice place with a temperate climate and often nice and cool when the rest of the country is sweltering over summer hols (Dec/Jan/Feb). My other half likes it very much...so we go there quite a bit..it is where I hunted taking lots of photos of little blue blurs until I got a good snap of this little critter, which I was then so proud of I polished it up to FAC...Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well that wine is very nice, I like that one, and another called Moss Wood. Its just the chardonnay you see. Giano (talk) 22:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Moss Wood is from the same area. Just about every state produces wine here and they are all competitive with each other. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

well they are both OK, in fact very nice. I was jusy looking at you page, I see you are a naturist, I think if I was there I'd rather sample the wine than lok for birds. Giano (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

...erm, naturalism not naturism....:) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Feed the birds, tuppence a bag...Yomangani^talk 23:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What's that got to do with it? I think it is very brave with all those snakes and spiders and things, that they have there. Giano (talk) 23:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just wondering whether Cas might be providing the early bird with its meal. And now I'm wishing I could get this image out of my head. Thanks a lot, Giano. Yomangani^talk 00:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

As you know being a key part of that crowd, the discussion was started, restored and is being continued by long running ax-grinders with Jimbo. Don't think others don't see through this. Transparently using 'concern' as a reason to air Jimbo's dirty laundry and create drama is by definition disruptive editing. For that reason alone it can and should be ended and archived. You want to discuss Jimbo's personal imbroglios? This isn't the place for it; do it offsite. FeloniousMonk (talk) 16:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What a vicious assumption of bad faith, have you actually read Giano's contributions there? --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No assumption needed on my part, Giano's history of having an ax to grind on the topic is a matter of record both on and offsite, easily enough found. And having read his comments is why I archived the discussion and why I'm here. Ever hear the term 'oblique attack' or 'damning with faint praise'? Wikipedia is not the place to air anyone's dirty laundry. Period. FeloniousMonk (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A number of people disagree with you FM (see two threads above) but apparently that does not matter. I would note that so far you seem to be the only person reading Giano's statement as "damning with faint praise" and you might want to consider whether you are merely misinterpreting.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of strong Jimbo supporters are also involved in the thread, and indeed I thought that 2 known Jimbo critics, Giano and Cla, were being very supportive and constructive in the thread, sure Bram was being less so but that is not sufficient reason to throw out the whole thread. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how any reasonable person could consider Giano's airing of Jimbo's dirty laundry and the thinnly-veiled gloating of those two can be seen as being 'supportive and constructive' much less "very supportive and constructive." FeloniousMonk (talk) 16:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• I read yesterday on one of the mailing lists a very well known and prominent lady editor bewailing the fact that Wikipedia no longer has a community spirit, she is correct the community spirit that it had when I cam here 4 years ago is all but gone, or at best vastly reduced. The reason for this 100% is that too much is now said off wiki which could, and should be said, on wiki. The last time, I looked the much overdue debate concerning J Wales was amounting to a vote of confidence. He needed to know how we all felt, and we needed to now how we all felt - so what is wrong with that? You Felonius Monk would rather everyone was bitching in some secretive corner - well then you are a fool. Giano (talk) 16:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not surprised you'd be arguing for more drama on the project, not less. And looking at the historical pattern of the players there that "secretive corner" is WR. That discussion should remain there. This isn't the place. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd spare your breath Giano, FM clearly believes in a New World Order - and you're clearly a member of the executive council - bless you FM, shall I get a glass of water? --Joopercoopers (talk) 17:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

More like Dr. Strangelove. Anyone doubting there aren't peopl involved there who are gunning for Jimbo need only read the last 24 hrs of posts there. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If you despise drama so much, please ask Wales not to encourage drama from the administrators. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 17:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for making my point for me. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You sure showed me. How are you not deliberately generating drama, again? You seem to be the only one in these discussions that has thrown AGF out the window. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Bugger off my page, all of you, or we shall have the loyal Arbonauts summonsing the newly refreshed Squeakies from IRC to ban me for incivility. Now, I'm sure none of you want that. Giano (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I want you to rest. You've done your best, but Wikipedia cannot be saved. Please save yourself from further stress and let this site die. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What a very depressing attitude! I have returned completely invigorated and ready to take on the world, but in deference to those who made their feelings felt in the recent unfortunate Arbcase, I shall not be editing at all in main/article space, only in Wikipedia space - that way everyone is happy. Giano (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah! To be banned for incivility - a badge of distinction to be worn with pride. Someone should make an appropriate Barnstar. Sarah777 (talk) 21:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Ta-da! Complete with the Sicillian haircut. --Joopercoopers (talk) 11:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you JC.......I shall..er ..treasure it! Giano (talk) 12:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back Giano, we all missed you! :-) Best regards, Húsönd 15:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Thaks Husond, returning was the right thing to do. Giano (talk) 15:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay! Welcome back hun! 20:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I echo all the other shreiks of excitement at your return, but I wanted to ask you a favor: could you make sure that the words 'Jimbo, fiddled, and girlfriend don't ever appear in the same sentence again? I may need therapy from reading those words so close together.  :-) --SSBohio 21:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No risk at all, I never write on romatic Gypsy violin music. Giano (talk) 22:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

So good to see you back, Giano. Wikipedia needs you. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hermm...

This is what I meant by emotionalism not serving you well. Or us well. Maybe rhetoric or histrionics is the better term. Anyway, if you're getting pissed off, maybe best to ignore the wankers. You've got a great vocabulary. Bet you could improve an article :) Come on, try a small one! We tried Montreal for GA and got beat down, help us out! Franamax (talk) 10:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense, it needed saying. Few people have had more run ins with Wales than I have, but if one is going to destroy someone's reputation, then it should be done with firm evidence, not a pack of exagerations, half truths and misrepresentations. Seves you right with Montreal, for mucking about with GA, complete waste of time, go for a FA instead. Giano (talk) 10:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Well deserved....

		The WP:SPADE Barnstar
		For all your work around here in telling like it is, and making the Wiki a better place. You really are doing it, and we need more people like you. Not to mention your article work, of which I am eternally jealous. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 11:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I've written 5 FAs...time to say I want to be like Giano? dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 11:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Well be careful, It will probably be my tatty T shirt and reputation on ebay next. Giano (talk) 11:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Though I too am full of it

Though I too am full of dihydrogen monoxide, I haven't written any FAs at all (or, come to think of it, even got a PhD). Ah, how depressing. Though that's outweighed by my delight to see you back, Giano, and in fine form. Your reappearance might encourage me to nudge something FAwards, were it not for the fact that I'm about to head off to some sceptred isle off the far west of Eurasia. While I'm over there enjoying the novelty of computer-free, smokefree pubs, could you possibly pop this in an envelope and send it to Bishonen? Thank you and toodle-pip, Hoary 16:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"So how do you become one of Wikipedia's upper crust—one of the several thousand whose words will live on for a little while, before later verbal fumarolings erode what you wrote? It's not easy. You have to have a cool head, so that you don't get drawn into soul-destroying disputes, and you need some practical writing ability, and a quick eye, and a knack for synthesis. And you need lots of free time." Not very accurate is it Hoary? Giano (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Wait, Hoary, are you calling me full of myself? Or full of water...? Gah, so confusing. :( dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 06:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No, no, you are yourself, and most excellently so, whereas I am merely full of it (particularly after a pint of Young's), or of something that rhymes with "it", or whatever. ¶ As for Giano's question, hmm, if the "upper crust" is taken to mean the phrase that follows it, then I think that NB is probably on the ball. Of course I can't be sure: although what he says seems to be true for a number of usernames (some of whom do get into those disputes from time to time, but chug along most productively when away from them), I know little or nothing about any but [pause while I consider] one of these editors, and thus for example merely presume that (unlike me) they have lots of free time; however, I realize that I may later learn that the simple explanation is they're geniuses who in their little free time read up and rewrite not twice but ten times faster than I do. ¶ Of course what's bloody annoying is that if one doesn't get into the occasional soul-destroying dispute (and perhaps even if one does) with, say, the denizens of some "WikiProject", then one will find that one's own articles have got buggered up courtesy of the Project's concern with "standardization" (i.e. conformance with their own well-intentioned but [insert string of pungent adjectives here] standards). -- Hoary (talk) 06:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome Back

Hello Giano II. I had asked ('bout a week ago) as to who you were & what all the fuss was about. GoodDay (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you, and a very good question it was too. I hope someone answered it for you. Giano (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Giano. I'm pleased to see you chose to return, and in some style too. I was interested to read your take on Jimbogate, not for the first time I think you are on the money there. Anyway, I mainly wanted to apologise for not replying to your email last month. I was, and still am, musing on its contents. The main reason I didn't reply was because I was having a bout of, shall we say, paranoia over I could trust with off-wiki communications and your email arrived at a rather unfortunate time. Rockpocket 22:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Rockpocket. Yes, I am on the money there rest assured, it will all be proved to be something blown up out of all proportion. In my experience most things are on Wikipdia, but if ever there is a choice between an easy solution and a difficult one, Wikipedia always choses the difficult one. Sorry to hear about your concerns if you have a problem - email me. Regards Giano (talk) 22:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to get to the bottom of a few things, but once I know more I'll explain in an email. Rockpocket 00:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] VK's sockpuppets

If you want Administrator Newyorkbrad, to gives his views? by all means contact him. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Brad is actually an Arb!, and you are the one so interested and bothered by VK's doings. Giano (talk) 22:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll let the Administrators handle it for now. GoodDay (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Giano. If you're trying to 'get under my skin'? it won't work (as I've no grudge against you). If you're just pulling my leg? no problem. GoodDay (talk) 18:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. I just wonder what your interest and connection is with these problems, I don't think I've encountered you before, and the fact you need to ask this question [29] suggests you were not au fait with the Troubles Arbcase - so why the keen interest now? Giano (talk) 18:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just nosey. However, if less opinons will help? I'll stay out of it. GoodDay (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

no, no the more the merrier, I just notice now one of the posse is vandalising the socks edits to the detriment of the encyclopedia now, I wonder what that is supposed to acheive? Do two wrongs now suddenly make a right? Giano (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, sockpuppetry is inexcusable & disruptive. It can't be tolerated on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm a little slow tonight, let me get this quite clear, are you saying all sock puppets should have all their edits removed, regardless of whether they are good or bad? Giano (talk) 19:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ooooh, somebody better tell Tony Sidaway...erm, I mean Anticipation of Lover's lost...er whatever his new sockpuppet's name is. Risker (talk) 19:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What on earth is he calling himself that for? Giano (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Darned if I know. But UC has started a poll over at Wikback as to whether he should be encouraged to change the name. Right now it is standing at 57% in favour. Risker (talk) 19:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Clariying- res to Giano. Blocked editor's sock-puppets shouldn't be permitted. Puppet masters who identify themselves & their puppets are permitted. GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:BAN#Enforcement by reverting edits is the relevant policy. As I said before, its not entirely clear to me that Vk has been banned, but since its a social construct, I guess one could interpret it pretty much any way one chooses. Rockpocket 19:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

GoodDay, very simply put - thousands of excellent edits a day are made by "blocked" or "banned" editors. It is distinctly to the disadvantage of the encyclopedia to remove those edits. Nobody should care about the person behind good, constructive edits. Deleting good content because it may have been added by a "banned" or "blocked" editor defeats the purpose of the encyclopedia. Our content must always be our primary focus, and the social management of editors should only be done with an eye to their effect on content. Risker (talk) 19:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Very well Rockpocket, I have reverted the posse here [30] because I fail to see how re-inserting poor grammar helps the project. Perhaps you would all now lke to come up with an idea for correcting the other errors that your friend has re-inserted. Giano (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to correct error then do so, as the policy says "Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating edits made by banned users. Users who reinstate such edits take complete responsibility for the content by so doing." Counter-revolutionary got into a bit of hot water by acting as a proxy for DL, even though the edits themselves were not particularly problematic, so its not something I would recommend you do too often. But one should always do what ones thinks is best. Personally, I think any cost/benefit analysis should encompass the bigger picture, rather than focus on some typos (Hell, Vk certainly introduces more typos than he fixes anyway). Rockpocket 19:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll say it again, blocked or banned editors' edits? shouldn't be permitted; editing Wikipedia isn't a 'right' it's a 'privillage'. Example- Hitting somebody on the head from behind with a real hammer or a soft rubber hammer is still an assault. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I see. So for how long do we have to stare at these mistakes before anyone is allowed to remove them? Giano (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Clarify, what mistakes do you speak of? GoodDay (talk) 19:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You are an extremely dense person, it is quite obvious that Giano (such a talented young man) is referring to the diffs, he highlights above - you need to study your grammar! Any more of this rubbish from you, and I shall personally have a word with Mr Wales - a very close and dear friend, it's well know that he has a twinkle where I'm concerned, why he became entangled with that dreadful journalist creature God alone knows, when he could have had me. Now be off with you and write a page. It's a well known fact that half of Wikipedia is written by socks and the like. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 19:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

After just being both insulted and threatened by Catherine? I depart this discussion. PS- Mr Wales created Wikipedia, but he doesn't run it. If he tried to? he'd violate Wikipedia's spirit of community & collaboration. GoodDay (talk) 20:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano. You are a bad, bad man (and a dreadful hussy too). Go and pick on someone your own size! Rockpocket 20:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! How about me, for instance?--Little Stupid (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC).

Meow! Kitty 20:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, a conversation about sockpuppets and then Little Stupid turns up. That warrants no action whatsoever...err...further investigation...err...checkuser, blocks, and random accusations of bad behaviour. The Shadow Yomangani^talk 23:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Aye! Comment on contributor, not on content! Stupid little bishapod splash! 23:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC).

Poddie, ents can be ributors, but not all ributors are ents. Not clear? Come visit me at my place and I'll explain some more... (there are plushies, too!) Swedophile (talk) 08:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blather, frankly

OK. We need some clarity here.

• Sockpuppetry can only be considered good or evil (by a moderate mind) based on what the sock does.
• Socks editing in areas away from those that got the author into trouble should be judged on their merits.
• Knee-jerk reversion of all edits by Socks (however excellent an edit may be) is a form of power-abuse (probably not psychologically different from the pleasure certain school-masters got from sadistically torturing their pupils).
• There is a line between discipline for the sake of reasonable order and the enjoyment of the power of punishment for its own sake; a pleasure that mixes elements of sadism and the joys of dominance. (I'm being very cautious here...nod, wink).
• I'm not sure all our Admins understand this.
• While I think the current charges against Jimbo are a joke there is a certain poetic justice in it - he empowered the anally-retentive control-freaks in the first place.
• These comments DO NOT apply to Rockpocket - least there be an doubt caused by juxtapositional considerations.
• Those to whom they do apply will, no doubt, recognize themselves and thus may get upset at these remarks.
• If the hat fits........

Sarah777 (talk) 03:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• Sarah, printing all of this here, is speaking to the converted, you need to take it elsewhere. You are correct, as I never tire of saying, we have too many little admins running around without a clue how to handle a situation, we now have one playing with petrol on top of a bonfire with a "rules are rules" attitude. I'm not interested in the psychology that causes this condition, only in the cure. This petty damaging of the encyclopedia by reverting good and valuable edits, and in at least one instance re-inserting a mistake seems a curious way of solving a problem. People think I'm soft where VK is concerned, far from it, I have insisted from the outset, he is in need of placing under very exacting sanctions and control now it seems it is some of the admins who have all too recently involved themselves with this case that need controlling. I've told various admins the obvious solution, which will work, but they don't want to here it. So that. I'm afraid, is that. Let stupidity reign. Giano (talk) 08:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Enforement request

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Giano_II. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I've commented there, seems a bit of a stretch to me. ++Lar: t/c 13:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It does seem now that if I attempt to deal with a problem, any little admin can call me a troll, and then attempt to have me banned. How clever our arbcom are. Giano (talk) 13:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt this will come to anything. Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't suppose so either, but it will doubtly be a frequent happening, as they all start to jump on the bandwagon. Giano (talk) 14:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You could always try the "I can be more civil than you are, while still pointing out that you're acting like an imbecile" approach. :) Or not. :) ++Lar: t/c 20:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

No Lar, you are quite wrong. today I have seen these edits [31][32][33] and many other similar from those supporting a certain viewpoint in the Troubles dispute, because I have another view on how to solve the problem. The fact these people have been trying to solve the problems with limited success for God know's how long is neither here nor there. If I point it out I am a troll, if I object the Admin Brown Haired Girl tried to have me banned on the civility thing. This is exactly what Ms Nite and her less than glorious Arbs hope to see happening. You see the more the little Admins complain, the more I appear the disruptive one, quite clever of them really, and that is why I stopped editing for so long, but then I thought sod them, the Arbs vindictively and spitefully created this mess, now they can sort it because it will happen again and again and again. If I behaved like this [34] our amazing arbs would gleefully call it trolling, except of course in this instance its one of their Admins, fortunatly on this occasion other editors sent her packing with a flea in her ear, while the brave Arbs wrung their hands in mock horror. Giano (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm just asking that you try to help those who try to stick up for you :) ++Lar: t/c 02:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time for refreshment?

Well, I was going to pop by and offer you a cup of tea, but it looks like a bit of Irish whisky might be more appropriate. ;-) Is it just me or does it seem a little odd that all the people complaining about this situation are unable to meet the description of uninvolved administrator? Ah well. Never a dull moment with your talk page on my watch list. Risker (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User: !!

Some people may remember my friend !!, while he has left, there is always a chance he may return. He cannot is he has been deleted. You may like to comment either way here [35]. Giano (talk) 16:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[36]Withdrawn. Risker (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I should jolly well hope so too. Has Durova gone, or was that a figment of someone's imagination? Giano (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Now now...she's doing a very good job over in Featured Images. That was simply a grammatical error on the part of the nominator. Risker (talk) 23:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lawson

Hi Giano. I notice you are editing a bit. (I hope you're following your own advice and keeping the mainspace in mind...)

Two months on, I'm still trying with the referencing on Robert Lawson (architect). I have a hold of Mane-Weoki (1992) and was hoping it would match the article. Eek, it doesn't. Not that the descriptions are totally different, but there are divergences. Do you recall what your primary source for the article was, if not that one? Cheers, Marskell (talk) 19:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, I have not looked at it for months, in line with the Arbcom's intentions, I am barely editing. I really can't be bothered to have Brown Haired Girl vexated again. The references are all listed, and if something is not there, it will be because it is an obvious uncontroversial fact. I seem to remember New Zealand's leading architectural expert cast his eye over the page, obviously the people at FARC are even more expert. Giano (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't claiming any expertise—I just wanted to save the article. Thanks, Marskell (talk) 20:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, we are all doomed to be dust sooner or later. Giano (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed sir. Our little editing life is rounded by a sleep. Marskell (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed we are, life is almost a Gothic novel, and you do [37] seem, like Mane-Weoki, to be confused by your Gothics. People used to say on Wikipedia: "a picture spoke a thousand words," now it seems only an inline cite is allowed to do that. What a loss to the project that is, the editor can no longer,now, have even the freedom to highlight the obvious. Giano (talk) 20:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I have open what is clearly the primary published source on this subject (Mane-Weoki). I have an article that doesn't agree with that source (mainly your writing). Perhaps Mane-Weoki is confused?—I don't know. You would know better, and if you've published reliably why you know better, we can cite it. If an article is to reject a main source, it must do so with other published analyses. This demand isn't a loss to the project in the slightest—it's what's strengthened Wikipedia. If you are implying that the descriptions in the article are based only on your looking at photographs (or perhaps seeing the buildings in person) it only strengthens the fact that it should be removed.

I didn't post to you tonight to leave things badly. A few people have gone out of their way with this article just because it's yours and editors think of you fondly. That's certainly why I am spending the time. But you've told me flatly that you cannot identify a primary source. Thus I think it should be removed. Marskell (talk) 21:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I really don't care - what you do. If you realy want to give the community a laugh - Ask one of the arbs to break off from their chatting on IRC and reff it, let's face it they do precious little else that's of use - demote it, do what you like - it's Wikipedia's loss, not mine. Giano (talk) 21:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Just in case anyone is wondering, I am so bitter with this filthy disgraced Arbcom, I don't think I shall ever contribute anything of worth to wikipedia again. Giano (talk) 21:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. Marskell (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection at Vintagekits

Just letting you know I've fully protected User:Vintagekits for three days. Since the talk page in this case probably isn't an ideal location for discussion, I started a thread at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Brief protection at User:Vintagekits. Will leave everybody I see as involved in the dispute the same message. Feel free to comment. :) – Luna Santin (talk) 09:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The talk page is far from ideal, it's protected. Giano (talk) 10:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are

you on some kind of probation? --Damifb (talk) 16:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you will find all you need to know on my user page. Yes, I am, but I regard the Arbcom as incompetent, spiteful and vengeful and altogether rather stupid, so I am ignoring it; and if you want to see further damage done by this apology for an Arbcom see here [38] if they had one scrap of moral fibre between them, at least half would have resigned by now. It seems they don't. Giano (talk) 22:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• and as I said their poor judgement only leads to this sort of ridiculous disruptive waste of time [39], [40],[41] but of course that is their determined intention. They really do need to be replaced. Giano (talk) 09:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

and two very accurate explanations of our Arbcoms miserable, pathetic and failed logic is here [42] Giano (talk) 22:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] London, or London, England

Perhaps you want to talk it out on the talk page instead of calling it trolling. No Wikipedian should call a well made edit "daft", especially not one on civility parole. I have thick skin, but I hate to think that you might treat other Wikipedians with such contempt.

I don't think it is a good idea to assume the reader knows the subject before they have read it. Sometimes people look things up in the encyclopedia because they are ignorant of a fact. _(1 == 2)^Until 22:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you will argue next that in 1789 the guillotine was errected in Paris, Illinois? London is London! Giano (talk) 23:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't be silly... everybody knows it was Paris, Texas. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That isn't the point. IMO location by country should always be a priority in any article, and letting our readers (many of whom are hopefully uneducated third world children) know that is absolutely necessary and I wouldn't expect guillotine not to mention France in the opening either. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• It is an Americanism to keep announcing precise geographical locations after every town, and it is certainly not needed after London, in a page referring to its great fire. Do we say in Europe "Washington, America"? - No we do not, so in a page about a major European city we credit the reader with minor intelligence. Giano (talk) 23:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But we - the rest of the world - do tend to say Washington, D.C., though. Rockpocket 04:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah Rockpocket, exrending your fields of interest I see. I had no idea you were interested in incendiary history. Giano (talk) 09:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I call them when I see them, Giano, and your talk page is such fun to read. As it happens, I agree with you that London, England is not really required (why not London, Britain or London, United Kingdom?) Our readers may be ignorant, but if they don't know where it is, surely they can just click on the damn thing and all will be revealed in the very first line. Rockpocket 17:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It is fun to read isn't it - I quite fall of my chair with mirth some evenings. Giano (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

So "mirth" is what they are calling it these days. Rockpocket 17:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't agree, and I certainly don't think that if it is an American concept that that makes any difference. Do not underestimate the level of ignorance in the world, there is nothing more irritating that any article that fails to locate itself geographically, and I for one will keep editing to repair this wherever I find it. Mistaking one London for another is simply not the poiont. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, isn't that why we do all that wiki-linking? So someone can click on "London" and find out all about where exactly London is? Isn't that one of the things that makes us different from a dead-trees encyclopedia? Oops, how presumptive of me. Risker (talk) 23:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, we get more precise than that, geographically speaking... we've got templates to add precise geographical coordinates so that you specify the latitude and longitude of the place you're referring to, to six decimal places if you want. That proves to be very useful for things like the new software for the iPhone that shows you WP articles relevant to your current location, as well as Google Earth's layer that shows clickable purple balls at spots that have an article on them. It's because of gadgets like that that I've become obsessed lately with getting those geo-coordinates in every article that they possibly make sense in... which in turn has gotten me out of the wikidrama rut I've been in for the last year or so and back to actually doing something useful to improve the encyclopedia. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

...and, seeing tonight's 60 Minutes piece on the Svalbard Global Seed Vault made me want to find its exact coordinates to get them in the article, but I see somebody's done it already... how accurate is the location given there? Will it be sufficient to let future archaeologists find it after some global catastrophe, if they have a dump of the Wikipedia article? *Dan T.* (talk) 00:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

London. Or in American, "London, period". ¶ I read: there is nothing more irritating that any article that fails to locate itself geographically There's no accounting for irritation: for me, what's most irritating is misinformation, and the likelihood that anything and everything in Wikipedia could well be wrong. ¶ As for talk of geographical coordinates to six decimal places, I do understand how this could be useful for "smart" bombing and so forth (and conceivably articles on specific buildings), but I look forward to its use for such entities as London (or "London, Britain" or whatever) as this will supply me with an extension of the (presumably unintended) amusement I derive from city populations specified to the nearest person. -- Hoary (talk) 09:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought it perfectly obvious when linking to the fire of a medieval city, presided over by Charles II of England which is linked to singularly as London that one actually meant "the London", not some other obscure town no one has ever heard of, let alone been to called London, Arkansas. Anyway the problem now seems tobe solved, hopefully to the satisfaction of out more geographically and historically confused American cousins. Giano (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a good way to read an encyclopedia though, having to click on a link to find out where London is. BTW the UK didn't exist in 1666. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That is very true Squeeky, but London most certainly did. Giano (talk) 17:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You know, it's ironic that there is another city called London not 200 km from where I sit, but here in Canada (and Europe, and Australasia, and Asia) when we say "London" we mean the one where the fire happened. When we want to talk about our local London and there is any chance the meaning would be ambiguous, we add modifiers. Risker (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me we had very much this same discussion at Talk:Syracuse/Archive_1 and Talk:Syracuse/Archive_2, in which Syracuse had to be "Syracuse, Sicily" because otherwise the groundlings would assume Syracuse, New York, it was strenuously asserted. And I a New Yorker, too. Imagine how humiliating. --Wetman (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah Mr Wetman, but has that sorted the annomalies? I assume you are referring to Sarausa, Pruvincia di Sarausa, shame I never saw that debate earlier, because where else would Syracusa be, but Sicilia, Italia.

This proves my point, methinks, hbecause I certainly had never heard of Syracus in Italy or elsewhere till just now. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

An pray where did you imagine the first American to name a town Syracuse had found the name? I assume you had heard of London? (the large town in England)? Is geography not taught in American schools? Giano (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what they teach in American schools. I grew up ooh 25 miles from the origianl London, so I do know where it is, but the point is not confusing Syracuse or London with somewhere in North America but that I didn't know where any Syracuse was and I imagine I am writing for people who may not know where any London's are (especially when you consider that these articles maybe being translated into multiple languages). I am motivated to write for the ignorant not the already knwoledgeable23:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC). Thanks, SqueakBox

These geographic clauses following each plave name rather dfeat the pont of the blue link, I strongly feel that the original place names should be allowed to stand alone. However, don't worry, I'm not about to make a campaign of it, I have a much bigger fish to fry at the moment. Giano (talk) 00:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arbcom?

Interested in your views on Arbcom. They made a ruling in a case I was involved in - that terminology cannot be applied to a historical event unless the exact terminology was used at the time of the event (despite the terminology not existing back then) - even if the event meets precisely the modern definition of such terminology. This you may or may not find interesting; though I guess you are forbidden to comment by the geniuses above at Arbcom. Sarah777 (talk) 23:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Had a quick look, too late at night for my small brain to grasp, give it to me in a nutshell, and I'll take a look in the morning. Giano (talk) 23:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Had a quick look - List of monarchs in the British Isles sounds like something straight from Narnia, or that boring book with the hobbits. In spite of this Sceptred Isle being famously sceptered, I feel its monarchs and their relations are very well covered, and will survive without any help from me. Giano (talk) 11:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nuance and understanding are not at the fore of ArbCom membership. Being selected is. Imagine the fun the people editing James I of England would have if they could not say "homosexual" because the word did not exist until the 19th century and the category did not exist until the 20th. It appears now there is a fishing expedition at user talk:Geogre to try to find some charge. Apparently, there is some kind of odd game of semantics making the rounds. Looks like he's ninety percent gone from Wikipedia out of boredom or disgust, and some people are mistaking that for weakness or disfavor. Utgard Loki (talk) 17:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] John254...

I understand why you could be upset at john, but this is a little disapointing. I saw it as some kind of threat - you should know that taking things elsewhere isn't what we do here. I personally have a lot of respect for you and I honestly thought you were way above this - just take a step back and think about things for a minute. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You have absolutely no respect for me at all so don't be so bloody hypocritical. By elsewhere I mean of course IRC, isn't that where you and all your buddies and the Arbs hang out, and where if we want to discover the truth concerning Wikipedia we are all forced to go these days? You see Ryan, I will get to the bottom of this, the very bottom, and if one way draws a blank, I shall go in another direction. I know the truth, all I have to do is prove it. Giano (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Palladian vs Rococco architecture

I was reading this evening and came across a reprint of a copper engraving of the Winter Palace. My first impression was that it was vaguely palladian in its style — the pillars, the portico-like entrance, the long narrow building — but it appears from our article on the palace that I was wrong, and it is rococo (not one of our better articles, I'm afraid - very disorganized and somewhat confusing), which in turn appears to be an offshoot of baroque architecture. Having "followed the links" further, I agree that Winter Palace more closely resembles Sanssouci, particularly in its ornamentation. What, besides the ornamentation, differentiates rococo architecture from palladianism? I have a feeling I am missing something rather major here that simply isn't clear in the articles. Risker (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the Winter Palace article is in such a dire shape. If Giano and Ghirla would ever be able to put aside some time and bring it to a decent condition. Maybe Ghirla would even consider a comeback, even a temporary one :( But seriously, I would help with Russian sources if Giano would be willing to work on the article and Ghirla would not join. But I know they are both busy enough. So, no pressure. --Irpen 05:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing a re-write of it ages ago [43] - I's worked very well with Ghirlandajo in the past, but I suspect like me he won't want to. Especially, as it now seems pages are FARC'd if the author/s does not want to include erronious fact just so thay can have a cite [44]. Giano (talk) 07:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh for pity's sake. The reference sources were crummy and not all of them were available for those working to ref the article; it won't be an issue for any articles you write today, because you're doing the inline referencing as you go now. Heck, I'd be happy if you just cleaned up Rococo so that it was understandable. Rewriting the Winter Palace article would be fantastic, though - something to keep you busy until Husond gets his hands on the Pena Palace books. Risker (talk) 07:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah! I'd come here to ask that - is everything on hold until then? Giano that exploded cutaway is very pretty and interesting, but not very good for extracting floor plates from. --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Think of Palladianism as a square plain fruit cake - Baroque as a round fruit cake with frosting and a few sugar roses - and Rococo as a round strawberry souflee disguised as a wedding cake. Giano (talk) 13:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid if we can now only use references available to all 5 million editors, and every page has to be written by a committee in agreement on each fact then the future looks pretty bleak. Furthermore, I don't need keeping busy, I have a very omportant research job on go the moment. Giano (talk) 08:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kannada literature

Hi Giano, remember me from my last FAC? Well now I have the above article in FAC. Tony1 objected to the prose and Taxman wanted more info on certian issues (which I am working on). If you are available, I think your experience will help in better organizing, presenting and polishing this article. If you are busy, can you point me to someone who could help me. I left messages for users: Awadewit and Willow, but with no luck. thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Whoo hoo hooo, if Tony1 is being bloody on the prose, I shall take to the hills, but I'll have a look, but to be quite honest Kannada literaure...I don't suppose by any slim chance it's a mispelling of Canada? - No I thought not. Giano (talk) 22:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.:)Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No Doc!

No Doc, like so many in that channel, you misunderstand - I'm only nterested in those who are ex-admins and non-admins in the channel. Thanks for the info though. ,ost kind. Giano (talk) 23:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone has researched the list you're after, however if you check the access list against the admin log, you'll get there.--Doc^g 23:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You are behind the times, Ryan is coughing the names as we speak [45] - well almost. Giano (talk) 23:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please see here

You have been blocked for 31 hours for repeated incivility at User_talk:FloNight and other locations in breach of the recent Arbitration ruling.

Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement for details.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 02:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And you think this will keep my logs and questions under wraps [46] - Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear. Giano (talk) 07:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, but it may reduce incivility on the wiki, which is necessary and appropriate, and which I ask you deeply to consider. Nobody - arbitrator, admin commenting, or bystander, has asked you to change views. The issue here is that the areas the community has strong agreement on, include civility. That's less about what you wish to say, than how you say it. Having strong views, is okay. Having questions (as you describe) - if asked appropriately and with good faith in your wording, and without gaming the system and trying to test the envelope, is self-evidently okay. But incivility - explicit, implied, or subtle - is not okay. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 07:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No problems FT2, you don't want your IRC problems discussed here, we can all go to WR to discuss them - that is obviously your ill thought out plan - makes little difference to me. Flo was keen to preserve the Gerard's IRC page now she seems afraid to discuss it. I obviously should not have left the message at Winter Palace about concluding it today - obviously too much for all you Arbs to bear. What fools you are. Giano (talk) 07:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I have copied the #wikipedia-en-admins access list into your userspace. See User:Giano II/access list. Everyone on that list has access to the channel. Just to give one example entry:

• [03:16] -ChanServ- 20 5 Betacommand 3h 19m 55s

This is the entry for user:Betacommand. The number immediately preceeding his name (5, in this case) is his access level -- the higher the number, the more things he can do. A minimum of 5 is required to get into the channel (or, more precisely, to invite yourself into the channel). The time code following the name is the amount of time, in days/hours/minutes/seconds, since that user logged into the channel. Raul654 (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Never mind all that, Flo announced her grand intentions of having uninvolved committee of editors looking at reforms in IRC, it was supposed the good thing to emerge from the IRC Case - and what has it all come to, what happened, what did Flo actually do? Daring to ask results in a ban, daring to be angry that nothing has happened results in a ban and further loss of content for the encyclopedia. Well I will keep on asking and asking and asking. You had better come up with the answer Flo and FT2 as to why that did not happen. Because the question will not go away. Giano (talk) 07:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's the other list, the on-wiki one, back to normal sized print. See User:Giano II/Onwiki list. The names in black are people who have not been in the channel for the past half year or longer. The bold ones are non-admins, but there are a few not marked that way. Not sure what bells and whistles you have in your preferences or monobook, but if you cursor over the names, you should be able to verify which channel name goes with which member; there are quite a few differences. Risker (talk) 08:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano it doesn't matter how many times a paranoid man shouts "conspiracy", it doesn't make it true. It doesn't matter how many times you say you are being censored for your opinions, it doesn't make it true. It doesn't matter how many times you claim that your civility isn't arbcom's main issue, it is. Now here's the facts - the access list is open - and all the information you want is public. Has someone compared the access list to #en-admins with the admins on en.wp? Perhaps not. But then we have no paid civil service here - people research what interests them. If this interests you, do the leg work and make a list. As to "have major changes been made to en-admins?" The honest answer is no. And none are likely in the foreseeable future. It was debated at length (I believe) - there was no consensus for any major change. You are not going to like that, but there it is.--Doc^g 08:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Doc - where is Flo's promised committee - where? why is not there regulating - just answer the question, can none of you quite see what the question is? A partial answer is here [47] Now why should the Arbs want to suppress regulation and investigation of IRC, and why didi they not announce this when Flo proposed it, when the eyes of the community were upon them? You will answer there was nothing to investigate, which begs the question why propose it in the first place. Now I have logs showing incivility which would never be tolerated on Wikipedia happening in the immediate past - and some riveting discussions, one even with FT2 himself discussing Danny. So do I pretend these things don't happen, do I go to WR, or do I say I must be a good polite boy and say nothing, keep my head down and write pretty pages for the Encyclopedia. Well I'm very good at the latter but pretty hopeless at the former. Now I'm off to spend the day looking at the Terracotta Army at British Museum with my kids - a great deal more intelligent than the company here. So I shall leave you all to dwell on your naivity. I hope to see an improvement in behaviour generally from you all when I return. Giano (talk) 08:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake. You are obviously incapable of conversing without attacking. I have no knowledge of the ins and out of the history. But there's nothing doing on IRC reform. Period. No conspiracy, no abuse, just a no consensus to do anything. NO consensus that any particular change would solve any particular "problem". Flo isn't/wasn't in control of that, it is just what came out of discussions. And frankly, you talking about the incivility of others is just laughable. You are quite entitled to continue arguing for IRC changes. No-one will stop you or expect you not to. There's no censorship, indeed wikipedia is perhaps far far too tolerant of people banging drums, and climbing on the furniture to make a point. Nothing much is going to change. We are not dwelling on our naivety, but on your self-focussed paranoia. Giano, there are huge issues with wikipedia, huge structural problems with how we do things. A gaping lack of leadership. A total unwillingness to sort out BLPS and libel issues. And you would have us constantly straining on the gnats of your own obsessions, well, we've moved on.--Doc^g 08:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

FT2: What' was "incivil" in Giano's comments. Please be specific. Giano has many comments on FloNight's page. There is a satire of her continued silence. Was that "incivil?" Was there a characterization of her motivations, mentality, words, etc. that was scandalous? I see repeated questions... well, one, actually... and continued "no one is going to answer because the answer is already somewhere else." Again, there is no basis of this block. Furthermore, 31 hours is a non-standard time. How did you arrive at that? Isn't the usual to begin with, perhaps, 12 or 24? I see no justification for this at all. If "any admin may block on any perception of incivility" is in force, may "any admin unblock?" Is there some magical force where any single administrator gets to determine for all others what is not allowed in speech on Wikipedia? Can we say, again and again, that pictures of David Shankbone's penis are perfect, because we're not censored, but this piece of speech (a question) must not be allowed? When that speech is interrogative and does not involve charges of real life illegality, etc. (no "you're a Nazi/Communist"), it cannot be instantly blockable. If you want to see someone merely trying to get anger, look at the bottom of my user talk page. Giano was trying to get a user to answer about why that user thought something was a good idea one day and a bad idea the next, and why the "resolution" of a case by ArbCom was abandoned without a word to the community. Those are legitimate, and it is poor service (what ArbCom is supposed to be about -- service, not power) to keep running away and blocking the questioner. Geogre (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

1. See WP:AE It may be you are in the minority who would not see the comments made as uncivil. I know some have very strict civility views, some very broad through to uninterested.
2. In general any admin may block; if the block is improper or grossly unfair then there will in most cases be a rapid consensus to that effect. Realistically, most admins block light, not heavy, a lot of the time, and hope for change. I know I've done many more 24 and 48 hour blocks than 1 week/1 month/3 month blocks, for example, and I would imagine that's fairly typical.
3. No. 12 is not a "usual" for gross incivility. See the block log (long), and text-search for blocks of civility. 24 - 72 and indef seem common; I hadn't checked but I guess it says something about judgement and consensus - by far the most common length (3 of the most recent 6 or so depending how you judge it) is 31 hours.
4. The question is not censored. The manner of asking it with egregious ofence to others is. And WP:NOT#CENSORED applies to articles, not other pages.
5. If this was about "power" I wouldn't have been racking my head to try and help Giano improve; I wouldn't be trying to explain so he can see the issue and understand what is asked of him; and I wouldn't be this approachable. Giano is a valued editor. However see my comment here -- so are others, and so is the communal fabric of the project which in no way is helped by insulting others gratuitously.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 12:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just wondering how long it is appropriate to wait for answers before one starts to be a bit more pointed in one's questioning. This matter was supposed to be addressed thoroughly quite some time ago, there was talk of committees and groups and the like, offered as part of the remedies, but I don't see much action on that score. Instead it seems there was a fair bit of buck passing, which Giano pointed out... and he got a "schoolboy" (31 hour) block for his trouble. I'd suggest that the use of 31 hours was deliberately insulting, but that would be a failure to assume good faith, so it must have been an oversight by the blocking admin. ++Lar: t/c 11:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the assumption. My weighing up of the length was roughly this: The arbcom decision said "may be blocked briefly, and for repeated instances up to a week". That implies the first one is brief - probably 24 hours. However it was aggravated and repeated, so I did not feel 24 would be fair. Nor did I feel 48 was a suitable length for a first instance, although the circumstances and back-history warranted it, the enforcement was mild, especially for the first time. It is important not to be punitive. So I opted for 31, the usual length for "a day and a bit more". Oddly when I checked the log just now for the question above it turned out that 31 seems to be a quite usual length too.

(edit conflict) As for the rest, Giano was not blocked for "pointing out" anything. he was blocked because he made uncivil/grossly uncivil comments to several other users on several occasions, when under a (repeated and very clearly emphasized) restriction to not do so. If you (or indeed anyone) have specific questions on IRC, may I suggest WT:IRC is a good place to post them?

Last, as an arbcom member I'm fairly sure that I know what we have committed to do. "(6) Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee". Part of that has been done -- openly and without pressure it should be noted. (For example, I was discussing IRC changes with James within a week of arbship, in early Jan 2008, long before anyone requested it.) I suspect that more is yet to be done when we see how that's working out. No fixed timetable since we want to sort genuine problems from "hype" and see how it all beds in, what happens when real problems arise. And those don't happen to a non-trivial level very often. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 12:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Brief is 15 minutes. It's the first choice in the drop down. I've given out 15 minute blocks before, they stopped editing that many viewed as problematic. 31 hours is not brief, in my view, it's verging into where some might view it as punitive for an editor that you're personally involved with. But more generally I don't see the incivility that you do, as I said at the AE page (after reviewing your lengthy summation first...) ++Lar: t/c 12:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I also note you dodged the larger question, what happened to this wondrous IRC council/committee/task force that was supposed to be set up? ++Lar: t/c 12:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You replied too fast :-) I was drafting that and adding it - got an edit conflict. Now added above. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 12:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It doesn't really address why what's been done differs from the way the case stated things, but ok. I personally have no concerns about IRC, other than that ArbCom hasn't come to grips with the issues that others raise. I don't share the view of some of IRC as a bad thing but if ArbCom says they are going to proceed in a certain manner, they ought to do just that. ++Lar: t/c 12:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Any time I think of actively contributing to the mainspace, I just visit this page. Thanks for helping me come to my senses, FT2, and anyone else involved in this game. SashaNein (talk) 13:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Doc g raises a good point about other issues being just as important, if not more so. Anyway, I've just been reading through what happened (though not in great detail). Giano was a bit aggressive with his questioning, but I would like to point out that the arbitration committee are also role models, and more so than Giano. What behaviours are people learning when they see the reaction shown here by arbitrators? Regardless of how people perceive their own behaviour, that perception isn't always what other people remember or learn from an incident (presuming that there is anyone actually watching all this). Some people will, wrongly, think that blocking for asking questions is now OK, or that extreme politeness is needed to avoid blocks (well, with some people it is). I think the best thing to do is for people to carry on talking constructively to each other, and for someone to produce regular updates on what is happening with IRC. I've been vaguely following things (I saw the subpage in Cbrown's userspace, and the list Ryan linked to is also good), and some progress seems to be being made, but not being on IRC I can't definitely judge how things are going in there (specifically in the admins channel). I would also suggest that the arbitration committee not overuse the magic panacea of forming subcommittees and task forces. Sometimes they just need to be decisive or restrict themselves and let the community deal with the rest of the problems. Carcharoth (talk) 13:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[48]

Oh and can someone point out to Thatcher, when he has finished his rant [49]] Flo has not been abused she has been questioned (there has been no incivility) because she was the one going to set the committee/working party up and throwing the sops to the community. Now she has to answer why all her grand ideas amounted to nothing, the very second the community was looking the other way. If the Arbs dod not agree with her, why let he carry on and pretend they did. The Arbcom is in trouble, and they had better get used to it. Giano (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I am discussing Thatcher's comments with him, and I will point out what you have said. Might I suggest that now you have raised the issue, you let others question what has and hasn't happened? I don't want to see tempers flaring on either side, and I want to see everyone talking productively. Would you consider stepping back a bit for now (from your talk page) and from the whole issue for a few days (after your block expires)? Carcharoth (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't understand the purpose of continuing to pester FloNight about IRC. She stated clearly that she wanted to establish a working group but there was no support from the rest of the Arbitrators. She has made it clear that she has not been involved in recent discussions concerning channel operations. I'm sure you are aware that Freenode is separate from Wikipedia; the IRC channel operators have gotten together and had whatever discussion they had, separate from Wikipedia, just as Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are not determined by Freenode. The results of that discussion are in Cbrown1023's user space, the people to talk to about it seem to be Cbrown, RyanP and FT2. I know you wish things were different. I know Jimbo asked that Arbcom assume a stronger oversight role. I know Flo tried to set up the working group. Arbcom has apparently declined to adopt the oversight role that Jimbo requested, and did not support the establishment of a working group. What is the point of continuing to pester Flo about it? Thatcher 14:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I think you raise an excellent point there, Thatcher. Rather than bugging one ArbCom member piecemeal, perhaps the entire ArbCom ought to be asked why they have declined to adopt the oversight role Jimbo requested (I actually read it as more of a mandate than a request, frankly). Maybe there is new information we are unaware of. Maybe ArbCom thinks they've discharged that mandate by delegating (informally?) to Cbrown, RyanP and FT2 ? I don't know. But I think these are valid questions to all of arbcom. That said, to this matter: Did Giano get snippy? Oh, yes, as per usual. Did he have a point? Oh yes, as per usual. Was it maybe made in not the most effective way? Oh, yes, as per usual. Is he still an awesome guy anyway, faults and all? Oh, yes, as per usual. :) ++Lar: t/c 15:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

To "to Cbrown, RyanP and FT2" What is this FT2? has some form of responsibility for IRC and he dares to block me for raising an issue regarding IRC - WTF is goimng on? Giano (talk) 15:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What is going on is that we are all trying to calm down. FT2 blocked you for incivility, not for asking questions. If we all calm down, we will get answers faster. And sometimes you have to wait a day or so for answers to arrive. So calmness, communication and patience, please. If by the time your block has expired, answers haven't arrived and been documented, and linked from, somewhere other than talk pages and arbitration enforcement pages, then I will support further questions being asked. How about it? Just wait a few days, and see how things go. Carcharoth (talk) 15:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not my style, that FT2 person has set this whole thing back months. He has a plain conflict of interest, had I wished to comment incivilly on the Arbcoms deceitful U turn, beleive me I could have done. I had no idea he had any responsibility for IRC, obviously another one that can't live without his chatroom. Well he needs to realise this "was" an encyclopedia, not a place for socialising. Giano (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I think FT2 fired a "warning shot" with his 31 hour schoolboy block. Think about what the next block will be--maybe a week, maybe a month, maybe indef. That is the effect of giving you a 31 hour block--next time the block will have to be more severe, for a respected arb issued the first one, and that could not have been in error! (!)

I'm not surprised that a heavy user of the Admin channel would over react to Giano's questioning. That is probably seen as insanely disruptive by a heavy user of that channel. Let's face it, the community came pretty close to advocating the disbanding of the channel in the first place. For the rest of us that do not have a dog in this fight, forget that IRC exists and look at Giano's main space contribs and ask the question: What is being prevented? I submit that the only thing being prevented is excellent main space contributions.

But since Arbcom adopted the "keep Giano in a cage, where he can write FAs and not intrude upon our delicate sensibilities", none of this is surprising; I am suggesting that this situation is going to escalate,whether intended or not, if you persist in enforcing bright line rules on Giano (example: "gotcha! You said fuck...blocked for 1 week"). Clearly, the ability to hold Giano to bright line rules enables a "clean kill" and once again, the reaction to what Giano is saying is more disruptive and detrimental than what he is saying. daveh4h 17:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for clarification in IRC case

I have requested clarification in the IRC arbitration case here and named you as an involved user. Carcharoth (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You can probably ask to be unblocked to participate in this. Carcharoth (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• What and be blocked for having the temerity to address an Arb, who is so full of conflicted interest he would not know it if it jumped up and bit his own behind. You can ask FT2 (that independent Arb) exactly what in his discussions they had to say about a) RFAR:IRC; b)Tony Sidaway; c)Bishonen. They have done nothing! and that is what this whole unpleasant business is about. The second the spotlight was off them the Arbcom renegaded and wimped it. They must be kicking FT2 blocking me was the daftest thing he could have done. It is now clear they will do anything to shut people up from asking awkward questions. They made a huge error ever accepting the case, especially in light of who proposed it, and now they keep compounding their errors. This is going to lead to disaster after disaster. They thought they were so clever, from where I'm standing they are now looking far from clever. Giano (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Two beautiful posts that show us all exactly what sort of Abcom we have: [50] Giano (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Now why could I not had this brief succinct and to the point answer last night [51] without all the fuss and prevarication and disruption which FT2 has caused. Mmmmmmm? You do have to admire our Arbs - don't you? Giano (talk) 19:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• ummm, you pretty much did get that answer last night, you just wanted it from flonight, not ft2. I agree with you on nearly everything, so implore you to keep cool, please. It seems that ft2 is the only one dealing with the issue, so you will have to wait on him for answers. The others seem less interested in participating in reform of the irc system, so my view is that it's better not to bother them with it. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

They voted quite clearly to adress the problem [52] the second the community took their eyes off them they did a huge and very quiet U turn, when I started to ask awkward questions I was banned, and still am. You want to be ruled by a crew like that? I don't. Giano (talk) 22:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano, for what it's worth, I reviewed your block. I don't care much about IRC -- I'm rarely there, and I didn't follow the IRC ArbCom case at all. I also don't really care what questions you were or weren't asking FloNight, or even what the answers are. So please take this as a comment from an uninvolved admin. I still think that several of your comments over the last couple months have been uncivil, and that it was reasonable for a block to be implemented on your account, to restrict the flow of uncivil comments onto Wikipedia, and to enforce existing ArbCom sanctions. I do have a question of my own now: Whether or not you agree with it, you are under a requirement to be civil. Do you plan to abide by it? --Elonka 22:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, we had a brief exchange on my page that you may recall. I just wish to say that the "incivility" rule needs to be suspended because it is being applied across Wiki in a totally arbitrary and abusive manner. We need some very specific rules about what constitutes 'incivility' (akin to 3RR) - such power is simply not safe in the unregulated hands of 1,500 anonymous Admins. Sarah777 (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How tiresome

My dear friend Lord G,

I am feeling restless and unsettled today. I have been trying to read the writings of a Mr. FT2. Have you heard of him? Well, I must say, he tends to go on and on....and on, until I can no longer stand it. I feel I would rather clean the stables! I will be riding later this day if you care to join me.

Your friend and neighbor, Lady E

[edit] Your Email

Your email on Wednesday lifted my spirit. ;-) Let's talk more and see if we can figure out the best approach to take. I'll email you in the morning with some specific ideas to see if you think that they will work. Take care, FloNight♥♥♥ 02:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment of Little Moreton Hall, Kedleston Hall & Ascott House

Hi, Thanks for your message about assessing Little Moreton Hall, Kedleston Hall & Ascott House as start class when reviewing all National Trust houses for the new Wikipedia:WikiProject Museums. As you know these things are a subjective judgment & we are still developing the criteria at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Museums which you would be very welcome to participate in. They are all good interesting articles, but as you requested a few comments on other things which could be done. Little Moreton Hall - well referenced, but more could be said about the contents (as opposed to architecture) & NT ownership (eg when did they aquire it & how) - I have put this one up to B class. Ascott House & Kedleston Hall are completely unsupported by inline citations & I feel these are needed before they could make B class. I would personally add an infobox using Template:Infobox Historic building, but as we discussed on Brympton d'Evercy I know you dislike these. I hope these comments are useful.— Rod ^talk 14:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't like info boxes, in fact I detest them. In line cites are only needed for contraversial or disputed facts, and Little Moreton Hall is notable for not having contents. Giano (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance puts the first at GA+ class, easily, and the other two, most probably. Of course, with an infobox, I'd relegate them to "borderline deletable".--Doc^g 15:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

In line cites are only "required" for controversial or disputed facts - however they are good practice at all times, for dates, names, styles etc - these enable others to check what has been written & get further information. If you would like me to I can go through & add "citation needed" tags, but I'm sure you are aware of where they would be helpful. Perhaps an edited saying "Little Moreton Hall is notable for not having contents" would be useful?— Rod ^talk 14:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you mean well, but Giano is one of our best writers. Have you heard the expression "to try to teach your granny to suck eggs"?--Doc^g 15:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't think of trying to teach Giano to suck eggs - I was asked on my talk page why I had rated them in the way I did. We have previously had long discussions about Brympton d'Evercy & the benefits (or othewise) of GA reviews. I have personally guided several articles to FA & even more through GA, so I feel I am aware of some of the issues. You may not find infoboxes useful/attractive or whatever but many others do & I find them a useful summary. — Rod ^talk 15:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your advice, but the pages will have to remain "start" standard if that is the case. I am just hapy they are one up from a stub. To be honest i had forgotten I ever write them, so it is nice to see them popping up on the watch list. I may soon start my own grading of pages. Just think of the fun I could have with that. Giano (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

A box promises to contain, and things that can't be neatly contained can't be put in boxes. A box suggests "this is the real deal," and if the real deal could be put in a box, then there would be no need for articles. A box says, "Here is your PowerPoint bullet point list, so you can find all the world reduced to a reductive summary; please do not strive to understand complexity, for that is for suckers." A box says, "Wikipedia is just like your primary school text book: full of colors and 'bites' of infotainment." A box says, "I, the box maker, have just pissed all over this article and written a counter-article, and it's short, so read it instead." A box may be found useful by some people, indeed. We call those people "non-readers." Utgard Loki (talk) 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Why can my page never be nice, like other people's pages ful of happy lovely things, and cheerful smiling happy people - all waving and singing gospel songs and doing beauriful things. There's only Spumoni who is ever cheerful around here Giano (talk) 16:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There you are you see [53] carcharoth understands me, and I took all the pretty photographs myself too, just so our American cousins can se what a real old English manor looks like - even if it is a complete fake. Giano (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You have become a kind of User untalk:Jimbo Wales, a place where opinion is voiced regardless of the page owner - even though it is addressed to you. You are both the Unfounder and the UnArbCom in the eyes of many. How do you like your crown of thorny comments? LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Wow! I was really only gently joking... LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Trust me Giano, you shouldn't encourage me to start singing if you want people to be happy and doing beautiful things. Nice photos, by the way. Mine always seem to have extraneous objects in them. Risker (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I ought to become an admin after all, then I can block you all for interupting me, trying to upload a half finished bloody plan that has taken nearly all of the last day of my holiday, looks terrible, has hours more to do on it, and now won't fucking upload cos I've saved it in the wrong bloody format, and I only want to see how it looks so far - bugger the Winter Palace! Giano (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would stand as nominator. Remember, you do not have to show a need for the tools - just trustworthiness in potentially using them... hmmm... My offer still stands! ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks LHVU, but all that mop and bucket stuff, I have never used a mop and bucket in my life, and fiddling about with vandals and civility, categories, filing, table manners and telling people what to do, sounds like a cross between a school teacher and a housemaid - not my style at all - I like to please myself - I suppose none of you know how I can upoad a doc.file? You may as well make yourselves useful seeing as you are all admins. Giano (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Japers, Giano - I don't know how to do stuff! I'm an admin; I stop people doing stuff... The creative bits are best left to the pure writers, and the techy bits for the rest of the editors! I'm sure there will be some of the latter around here some time later. Hopefully they can assist... LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean a .doc file I take it Giano? And we aren't all admins. I take it you mean you can't upload an image with .doc, in which case you have a technical problem, give me a shout if you want a hand with technical problems and I will see what I can do. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No, no don't worry, I rang the bell, and the butler knew the answer, thank God for people with mops and buckets, all sfely uploaded now, thanks for the offer. Giano (talk) 21:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oi!

[54] Whisker? Don't make me put a lolcat picture on this page... Risker (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear! Moral of that story is beware, spellchecker can do amazing things. Giano (talk) 09:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Spellchecker did that? Good grief, I don't envy you. Incidentally, I did a little research into the new trendy phrase, "extraneous hoopla". I've written it up as a sort of DYK on my user page. Risker (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] We did it, SS Chris is a Featured Article!

yaay!

Thanks for your help in getting the good ship SS Christopher Columbus to Featured Article status. The nomination went swimmingly, it was clear sailing all the way, no one turned up to torpedo it, and she passed easily.

that's the ticket!

Ah, Giano... you may not have had as many edits to Chris as some of the other folk I'm thanking, but you had loads to do with it just the same. Thank you, my friend. Enjoy your free pass (see right), I know I am going to! And stop bribing E! ++Lar: t/c 22:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice article! How about something like Niagara (palace steamer) next? Or another of the palace steamers? Which reminds me: John B. Macy: "Macy lost his life in the burning of the steamer Niagara [...] Macy was last seen on board exclaiming "We're lost! Oh God! We're lost!" His body was never recovered.". Category:Shipwrecks in the Great Lakes is interesting. I would suggest trying to get Great Lakes Storm of 1913 featured, but it's already featured! Carcharoth (talk) 01:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know how any of that can be an FA, except that The Rock was heard to say, "We're lost! We're lost!" in the December to Dismember. Now that is the kind of FA writing that has a proper selection of footnotes with sortings, licensures, tags, tag teams, and other things, all of which are the most important things of all -- not this elitist history and culture stuff. Utgard Loki (talk) 15:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] hello - images

Helo - I've followed some of your articles which are very good - you use images a lot. Can you point me the right way to sort out the copyright problem. I uploaded a picture I made here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pluralitas.jpg

which should not be a problem, but the warning message does not give precise instructions about how to fix it, just links to various long and incomprehensible online documents. Help gratefully appreciated. Latinist (talk) 11:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If you really did make it yourself, you just select the appropriate tag from the drop down list, in this instance {{PD-self}, Giano (talk) 12:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - although I have no idea why that is the correct answer! Latinist (talk) 12:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image for deletion

I want this deleted [55] can someone do it for me, I have speedied it with good reason, but others seem to feel my reasons are not good enough. Bisnonen, Geogre, someone anyone - can you do it for me - Thanks. Giano (talk) 22:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Gone.--Doc^g 22:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have a nice new one uploaded. Giano (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I was confused as to why you didn't just upload a new version over the old one... ++Lar: t/c 23:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

He uses a different title for each major revision, and doesn't want the old versions around to confuse things, since the work has been corrected and revised. Scary that I know that. Risker (talk) 23:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes it is. ++Lar: t/c 15:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am uploading over the top of the old one, but once in a while it is a major revision, and I change the name on my computer, amd knowing how some people can't help interfering I want the old revisions out of the way, so no well meaning soul can ever revert and make the article meaningless, I shan't be arownd to look after these pages for ever, and I would like them to have a sporting chance, the current plan will probably be quite different to the completed one, especially at the rate that Alex is finding new room, bu my calcilations he only has 1,450 to go. Eventually many of these rooms will have small pages of their own, with yet another simplifired version of the plan, highlighting a particular room in red, so it is all quite complicated. This is not a new page, but a major project.Giano (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Belton House

Giano, I understand what you mean about the brighter pictures, but do you agree it would be better to have a picture without a cherry picker crane in the foreground? Pete Richardson (talk) 06:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No I don't. The pictures in the article were taken expressly for the purpose of illustrating points raises in the text. While the crane is regrettable, (only 1 of the images changed had a crane) the original images still illustrate the hard architectural fact better than a glimpse of the house taken at an angle "peeping" through trees, in poor light. Giano (talk) 06:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough - I hadn't considered the relationship of the text to the pictures. The lighting wasn't perfect in mine, but I do think the composition was more agreeable. However, given the status of that page, it doesn't deserve to be messed with on a whim, my apologies. Pete Richardson (talk) 07:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Why not go back on a nice day and take the south front, full on, minus the bloody crane? When writing about country houses etc, it is always important to remember this is an encyclopedia not a "come and visit us, we are so beatiful, all the kids will enjoy the day out" type brochure, and the images have to be as factual as the page - rather than beautiful. Giano (talk) 07:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I liked it there so much that I'm sure I'll go back some sunny day. Very good point for the pictures on here, I'll bear that in mind in future. Many thanks for your comments. Pete Richardson (talk) 08:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There's not enough information in the image to remove the crane entirely, but I've minimised its impact a little until somebody takes a nicer pic (or until somebody is prepared to spend more than five minutes removing it from the image). Yomangani^talk 10:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh you are so clever, I wish I cpuld do clever things like that. I think you are one of the wisestwikipedians I know of. Clever, intelligent,witty, charming, useful, did I say clever....actualy Yomangani, I'm working on something quite big at the moment, I may need your help some time in the futur placing one or two inages - well actually about 1500 - Giano (talk) 12:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

First Stalin's liquidated ex-henchmen are disappeared from photos, then poor cranes that never harmed anyone, sob. -- Crane Liberation Front 12:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Pity we can't airbrush certain people too. Giano (talk) 12:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently I'm already in trouble with the Crane Liberation Front, so I don't want to be hanging around the Winter Palace when the Bolsheviks rush in (although I saw the beginning of Anastasia a couple of weeks ago and appeared that the Imperial family all got on a train out of Russia during the extremely well-mannered revolution, so maybe it isn't that risky after all). Yomangani^talk 12:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course the Imperial Family lives on! All you have to do is look, here and then here. And don't even need photoshop (gosh didn't the groupies look better in the old days!).--Doc^g 12:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well sadly for the groupies, there is not going to be much about the last Romanoffs, because contrary to what is on the internet, they did not actually like the Winter Palace, and spent as little time there as possible. Giano (talk) 12:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of this; really? Daniel (talk) 14:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Load of bolox. Giano (talk) 15:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, bolox. Here's a pair. -- Hoary (talk) 11:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images for deletion!

This [56] has displeased me greatly, unless the Arbcom want to see an immense amount of incivility they had better turn out and vote to save it because I no longer have the original on disc! Giano (talk) 18:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well the image looks safe now. Thanks. This new editor User:Kelly does seem to be something of a keen deletionist, seems to spend every spare moment nominating for deletion, perhaps there is a prize? I wish I was such a fast learner, should go far on Wikipedia. Giano (talk) 12:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Not entirely. It looks like she is copying over your images to Commons based on her current activities. Risker (talk) 16:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, and it appears there is to be a "in future" [57] - why am I just getting a horrible feeling - why me, why my images - Oh God, life can only get better. Giano (talk) 17:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What I want to know is why she is changing .gif files to .jpg files, there is a noteworthy difference in format that can affect future changes - .gif files are more stable and degrade less than .jpg files as they are revised. Risker (talk) 17:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, there - I did not convert any files, I have just been moving them over "as is"...the file that was converted from GIF to JPG was done by somebody else. Is there a problem? Kelly ^hi! 17:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Some people just can't help fiddling arownd. I just take the pics I want for my pages and upload them, I do not understand the finer points, nor do I care. When there is a problem you will be the first to know, and if you nominate any more images I want for deletion, there will be a problem. Giano (talk) 17:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am very sorry if I upset you...I was only cleaning up the free images and moving some to Commons. I am not a keen deletionist; most of the images I flagged for deletion were old unused personal snapshots or leftover spam images. I did nominate some orphaned images that seemed abandoned and that I thought the Commons might not want - I apparently made a mistake regarding your balcony image and I'm sorry. Kelly ^hi! 17:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem, but if I don't want an image I usually have it speedily deleted (see two sections up). Giano (talk) 17:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Sorry Kelly, I did not read the full history of that Southcote image, and missed that someone else had converted it some time before. One issue that has been seen quite often here on en-WP is that people upload images, often for future use, they get moved to Commons and deleted here, and then they get deleted at Commons but there is no notification to the initial uploader that their image is now nowhere in Wikimedia space. Giano is not unique in his wish to keep images on en-WP; quite a few others have encountered this problem over the last few years. As well, finding moved images on Commons can be quite a Byzantine task due to the differences and irregularities in classification. It's more a reflection of different processes on the projects. Risker (talk) 17:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a problem I've noticed a lot too. The first you realize it's been deleted is when a red link appears in the article. I find it helps to add to the top of the WP image page, "please retain a local copy if this is moved to the Commons." SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 17:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, I created a special template for that. After the Neil incident when he was blocked for not wanting his images moved to commons, there was a discussion that ended up that the deletion policies were modified. Now, the mere presence of the image in Commons no longer requires the deletion of the local copy. Just place {{KeepLocal}} on your images (that what I do) or place {{NoCommons}} if the image is already copied there but not yet deleted.

Some editors, like myself, don't wont to deal with commons for the reasons I stated elsewhere. Also, there is indeed a lot of confusion with commons' ever changing and fluent policies, its capricious admins, spurious rules of checkuser access and, location and mislocation of images.

You cannot force anyone to not copy any of your commons-compliant images, but you can at least make sure, that the local copies are kept here. HTH, --Irpen 21:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Irpen, those templates are very useful. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 23:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the hundreds of images I have taken can be uploaded to commons and then deleted withot me knowing? Giano (talk) 21:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just seen one of my favourutes Image:Belton House 2006.Giano.gif has gone to commons with nothing here - all seems very strange behaviour. 21:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And some of them have likely been uploaded and deleted (that is "moved") already. --Irpen 21:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. It has happened to several of mine, even when they were very clearly PD. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 23:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So I am seeing, why can't people just stop fiddling about and write some content instead. Giano (talk) 21:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Now there is even one of my plans Image:Belton Plan.jpg gone from Wikipedia, what is wrong with these people? Giano (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The "wrong" with these people, Giano, is what we all know. They don't come here to write the Wikipedia but for social reasons: chat, make friends, chatmore, make a "career", write bots, "write policies", go 'round telling others what to do (or to put it another way "enforce policies" whimsically), invent the awards and award them to each other, chatmore, reverse the RL hierarchy, disparage the "timid and ill-informed populace" at the "private" channels, post there diffs and talk like they own the place, etc., etc., etc. I am not saying anything that you don't yet know or, perhaps, even said yourself.

But as for the images, legally speaking anyone has the right to copy the freely licensed image to commons. That often this is done with violations, that is the uploading history not being preserved, is another point which happens less now. You have to be prepared to see any and all of your images copied to commons. But you can make sure that the local copy is retained. This is my suggestion: use this template. It worked for me. I even succeeded asking the bot-owners to respect the "KeepLocal" and "NoCommons" templates and not tag the images for deletion. So, the images won't be "moved" but just "copied". As for copying, why not for what I care? --Irpen 22:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with people using and copying, I use commons myself. It is the removing completely I object to, I have just seem now that I can't edit half of them because they have gone elsewhere, I've uploaded to many to add the template to, but I will in future. Giano (talk) 22:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ANI

Hello, Giano II. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion can be found under the topic Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User using rollback tool to edit war. Tiptoety ^talk 00:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Appears to be resolved. Don't spill your cappuccino. Risker (talk) 03:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] talk page history....

check it if you like, and accept a sincere apology if you'd like.... moving on now.... Privatemusings (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fools

Thank you Risker (your rollback not working?) [58], but I was not born yesterday, and had just finished typing my acceptance speech. Now the world will never get to read it. In view of recent events, and an offer made to me, privately, which I am considering, PM was being very perceptive. I have decided to help share that great burden which Jimbo has so manfully and with such panache hitherto carried alone. All of you rank and file common editors must not regard me as changed, and if you want to talk to me at any time, my chief-of-staff Ms Bishzilla's undersecretary will advise on a place for you to wait as I walk past. My use name will name be changing from Giano to User: Oh Holy and most gracious One, but don't clutter up my talk page with your dull trivia about pages and content as it is now reserved for important people like Arbcom members who will want to post there begging favours etc. Wikilove and warm greetings etc. etc. etc. to you all . Giano (talk) 06:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC) )(aka: Oh Holy and most gracious One (talk) 07:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC))

My rollback works fine - I wanted to leave a snotty edit summary, that's all. In any case, this is a day of celebration. Did you know that Bishapod has been canonised? It is true! and today is Bishapod's Feast Day! There is even a website detailing all the special events being held in St. Bishapod's honour; and of course, here there is the Special Main Page event. So it looks like you won't be the only Oh Holy and most gracious One - you'll have to share that honour with a plushie. Risker (talk) 07:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I really can't let this day pass without apologising once more for my uncivil comments at this illustrious talk page. I have self-imposed a 31 minute cool down block, and expect better of myself when I return. (I'm just glad I didn't get the attentions of either bishzilla, or little stupid - the former's death rays may be terrible to behold, but it beats being dribbled on to death.....) Privatemusings (talk) 10:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I am just shocked and horrified by your behaviour Privatemusings, when I am on the Arbcom behaviour such as yours will be severely dealt with, very severly indeed. Your head will be impaled on the front page as a warning to other editors who may attempt to step out of line, and introduce light releif into the proceedings. Giano (talk) 11:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[Frantically clutching plushie ] Don't shoot ! Little Stupid (talk) 17:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC).

[edit] rollback

Hi Giano, I was watching another thread at WP:ANI when I saw the one about rollback and you, then made a passing comment without paying much attention to who had started the thread. Anyway I wanted to let you know, I would have likely commented no matter who was being talked about and as it happened, reading the thread was helpful to me because it made me aware that current practice here on rollback's threshold of use is not vandalism, but non-controversy/no need for an edit summary. Given this a) your use of rollback has been utterly a non-issue as explained in the thread but b) at least the thread was helpful in bringing me up to speed on the consensus about rollback! Cheers. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you trying to say? Giano (talk) 21:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nothing much, my way of responding to this. Sorry for bothering you with my thoughts. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kannada literature

Thanks for the support.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images again!

I see all of the images I took for West Wycombe Park have disappeared from Wikipedia to commons without so much as a word - this is really pretty bad, how can they be deleted from Wikipedia with no word of notification. Now they are only on commons and this one Image:West Wycombe 3 (Giano).png " released into the public domain by its author, PNG crusade bot at the wikipedia project" Well bolox to that, I am its author, if I copy a book to do I suddenly become it's author? Giano (talk) 12:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, if you released it into the public domain no attribution has to be given- to require attribution you need to use a Creative Commons license. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 13:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the description for you anyway. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not complaining about attribution, so much as moving to commons and deletingg from Wikipedia - where it can now de deleted with no one knowing anything about it her, because no one even bothered to tell me it had been deleted and moved. Giano (talk) 18:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

and it iis still happening here is another gone as I was writing the above Image:Brympton DEvercy.gif why are my images all being moved, I just don't see why thet can't stray here as well. There not evn that great pictures by commons standards. Giano (talk) 18:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Moving them to commons just means that they will be availiable for other projects to use, nothing is being deleted in reality. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

In theory, you are correct. In fact, it is not at all uncommon for images to be deleted from Commons. Worse yet, the categorization system sometimes makes it impossible to find the "right" image there, even when one knows it should be there somewhere. Giano, my suggestion to you would be to open an account on Commons and put all of your photos on your watchlist there, then log in once every few days to see which ones they propose to delete. Just remember to use your same login including password and email account, so you will be ready for Single User Login when it is offered to us plebes in the near future. Risker (talk) 21:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This policy of deleting Wikipedia images as soon as they are uploaded to commons will end in tears - you see if I am not right, may be not this year but one day. From now forward I shall just upload with the {{KeepLocal} template, but for how long will that be good? Here for instance Image:Tong Castle Shropshire.jpg has whizzed of to commons - why - I have not even finished the page for which it us destined, I may well upload a better version or never use that one at all. No one on Wikipedia ever looks further than tomorrow - I upload potentially useful images all the time, I stop the car and photograph useful buildings all the time, now these people want to upload all to commons and delete others as orphans because I have not yet had the time or inclination to write the page - what sort of clever policy is that? This Kelly is just going through every image I ever upoad - thousands - why? I have better things to do with my time than keep logging into commons to see if Wikipedia has decided to throw away the images I upload Giano (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I'm pretty sure that you can set preferences on Commons so that you get an e-mail (if any items on your watchlist are edited. Or you can just remove the 'W' from the {{NowCommons}} template to turn it into {{NoCommons}}, in which case it won't be deleted, but users from other projects can easily find the same image on Commons. {{KeepLocal}} is for images that have not yet been copied to the Commons. Kelly ^hi! 21:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not you just write page and upload your own images instead of fidling? Giano (talk) 21:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

being less shy and retiring than I probably should be, I thought I'd pipe up here (although I'll be careful how I sign!) - in truth, there's an unspoken movement which is gathering pace to move all images to commons - many people cannot understand why 'english wikipedia' should have images at all - they all should be available to all of the projects, is how the thinking goes. Not really having thought about it, but having had pic.s nearly deleted from commons without my noticing (my fault mind, wrong / missing licensing stuff) - my jury's out. It's not being discussed anywhere (why bother, when you can just go and do it!) - and to be honest the way the tide seems to be heading to me, we simply won't have local images in a year or so..... just a tuppence worth.. Privatemusings (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting point, Giano. And thanks for that information, Kelly. Last night, I experimented and uploaded a photo; it isn't all that good, and it is solely intended for my userpages, instead of the traditional pet/family/similarly too personal photo. I've since been informed that any photo that isn't in an article *should* be uploaded to Commons for everyone to use. (Sound about right, PM?) Now really...why would Commons want personal photos of individual wikipedians, their kids, their dogs, their snakes, their failed efforts at baking bread, their bathrobes, etc.? Well..I have no interest in uploading a barely average image to commons, but if someone copies it there I suppose I shall survive. Risker (talk) 21:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Giano, that unless some kind of system for notifing users when images are moved to commons, and deleted from en.wikipedia is developed (AND SOON) there will be tears and dhrama. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I also think that Kelly, knowing my views, continuing to plave a NowCommons template on picture I have uploaded (several more throughout the night) is rather extraordinary behaviour, when she could just as easily place a no commons template. Giano (talk) 06:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Can someone keep an eye on these images for me today, as I'm away. I have not the time to retag all the ones Kelly ghas deemed suitable for seletion, I have already wasted the hour on this that I had planned to spend on the new page - it is impossible to get on with writing here these days. Giano (talk) 07:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Won't be able to do much during daylight hours today, Giano, but I will go over to Commons this evening and start watchlisting the images that have been transferred, and try to set up something on en-WP to keep track of the rest of the images still here. I have another project in mind for the weekend that you might find of interest as well. Risker (talk) 14:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, do not be deceived. This has nothing to do with "sharing" content with other projects and has everything to do with fair use. Specifically, commons does not allow fair use content. The anti-fair use crowd have been desperately trying to purge the English Wikipedia of all fair use by any means necessary. Since they have lost the battle to end all fair use through consensus, they now resort to exploiting policy to achieve their goals through unscrupulous tactics such as this. First, they started mass deleting images that were *obviously* mistagged and could have been fixed in an automated fashion. Then they mass deleted any fair use that just had a boilerplate, demanding that a 2-3 sentence explanation be given for each image, despite most being *obvious* cases. Now, this is their final assault. To truly get rid of fair use, they must make all content hosted on the commons. I happen to prefer freely-licensed images, but I'd rather have some image rather than no image at all. Lack of content other than text is truly awful in a media-rich world. You can see the dramatic effect it has had on the quality of many articles, now that so many fair use images have been deleted. Quality has taken a major hit and if it weren't for people like you and a few others, it could have been much worse. For that, I thank you for your constant hard work despite the petty attacks by some rather useless administrators who have developed a cult of personality. Anyways, like you hinted, these so-called freedom activists don't really do anything useful for the project like write articles or find free images to replace fair use ones. Rather, they seem to only to abuse process and make it suck more and all in the name of freedom. These are the same one-issue activists that make projects like Debian really suck, since half the effort is wasted debating them over what is free and what isn't. Quite frankly, I think all bots should be totally banned. If you can't be bothered to take the time to personally do your own edits, then you shouldn't edit at all. --Dragon695 (talk) 12:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• I see. Well I think the history of this sad image is quite interesting [59] as it is not so much a book cover as a photograph taken by myself - I find all this very confusing. Giano (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if you feel like hosting a debate here on the use of fair use images in Wikipedia but it's a challenging issue that I think will continue to cause problems for the project in the future. Cla68 (talk) 16:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Discuss what you like here. Another half hour wasted - have ing to revert a bot that still wants to delete images, even those with the please keep template [60] - how does one put a bot out of action? Giano (talk) 21:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the same problem as ever. -Bots don't work on individual cases: they work globally. -Bot mentality is similar. When one is young, one thinks in absolutes in every area of life, and then one realizes that there are nuances, exceptions, oddities, and things that are impossible to define. It is not possible to say "no fair use" or "fair use is fine," because both statements are discussions of attributes without context. I.e. the happy upload plaster -bot that throws up every Warner Brothers Recording Artist is obviously bad, and the impossible copyright status of a 1930 book cover that is out of print (but which might have been renewed the last day of the author's daughter's life) is obviously fine. There is no way to make a universal law and then unleash a -bot.

What's more, "fair use" is itself a recognition of the fact that copyright is sometimes tight, sometimes very tight. It is a legal acknowledgment of times when context is the sole determination of legality. To use anything or make any statement that obliviates examination and careful consideration of context -- each and every single one -- by judgment and intelligence and deliberation -- is a priori wrong, if not stupid.

I'm an existentialist: I get suspicious when anyone starts talking about universal cases when it comes to human beings. (Yes, a Kierkegaardian, so there are universals, but not with "the crooked timber of humanity.") Geogre (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I left a report with the bot owner. To be fair, that image had {{NowCommons}} on it in addition to {{KeepLocal}}. Kelly ^hi! 22:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well this particular bot has a button on it that will blow it up [61] except when I pressed it, like all things on Wikipedia it can only be destroyed by an admin - so you go an press it Geogre - and give it a kick from me while you are there. 22:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] And in other news

Do you use Excel? The software, not the verb. Risker (talk) 13:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No idea what I use! It says Windows XP when I start the computer. Giano (talk) 15:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh good grief. That explains so very much. Risker (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

For your information, Windows XP is an operating system, while Excel is an application program that runs under the OS (in this case, a spreadsheet program). They're both by Microsoft, so naturally they're pieces of crap, and you should use something better that's open-source. But how is this relevant to Wikipedia? *Dan T.* (talk) 16:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Who said it had anything to do with Wikipedia? Risker (talk) 16:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, how it's relevant, perhaps Risker is just inquisitive. I don't do operating systems, and things like that, far too complicated. My last computer went very odd after I tried to fix it by squirting WD40 into it, which was strange because in my experience WD40 fixes most things. Giano (talk) 16:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

My wife has found out the hard way that squirting WD40 into me doesn't really fix things. Still, done the right way it does render me unconscious for a few hours, which provides a welcome hiatus. If she were to squirt in a very large quantity maybe it would fix me for good. If anyone's interested, Dan T. is on the money when it comes to XP, but (open-source) OpenOffice so sedulously apes MS Office that there's not much between the two behemoths. Except the price: a lot for legal MS Office, zero for legal OpenOffice. This difference makes the choice simple for me, and the clincher is that MS Office won't run on my computer. Anyway, OpenOffice displays XLS files. ¶ 'Nuff of that. I've recently been disturbed by the mediocrity of articles on buildings -- Pitzhanger Manor, Wotton House, Moggerhanger House, etc -- designed or remodeled by John Soane. I've done some fiddling with them and hope I haven't thereby messed them up, but somebody much more knowledgable about architecture (Joopers, even Giano?) would do a much better job, I'm sure. -- Hoary (talk) 23:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah yeah, I know all about the evil Microsoft conspiracy theories and terrible software. Unfortunately, since files written in OpenOffice don't work terribly well with the version of Excel I must use at work, and we are restricted in loading software anyway (an appropriate security move, given what some of my colleagues might put on their computers), I am stuck with Microsoft products. C'est la vie. ¶And you're quite right about those articles, Hoary. Seems there's always something to fix up around here, isn't there? Risker (talk) 23:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My edits to your userspace

Hello. A user asked to be removed from the access list of the admins channel, and also asked to be removed from a few on-wiki copies of this access list, for privacy reasons. Two of those pages were in your user space. I have removed the two mentions of the editor in question: here and here. I hope this is okay with you. - Mark 05:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buckingham Palace

I am being trolled here [62] by an Anon. I don't want to be incivil perhaps an Arb wpuld like to deal with it! Giano (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buckingham Palace

reported your unhelpful attitude to me as a new user to Jimbo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.19.104 (talk) 19:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Good luck! - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 19:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I must say that seeing an editor reporting his/her own 3RR violation directly to Jimbo is a first for me :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to make clear, in case anyone reads this before investigating further, that Giano only reverted the ip once while other editors also reverted (as said, the ip reverted far in excess of 3RR) including at least one other editor twice. However the ip only commented on the actions of Giano at User talk:Jimbo Wales, which lead me to believe that the ip was disruptively targeting Giano. In any case, I have issued a short block on the ip on that basis. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, goodie, now the IP will blame me for getting blocked :-(( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to look at the IP's edits before Buckingham Palace - all Irish topics. Wonder if that has anything to do with your earlier comments elsewhere, Giano. Risker (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The IP address is from the United Kingdom. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 19:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course they were to do with earlier comments I made today, I questioned a decision of an Admin in a contraversial area, and this is the result - a trolling anon. - Oh well I have broad shoulders (thank God) - Thanks a lot all of you. Thanks too to all the Arbs who broke off from their chatting to resolve the situation, having cleverly placed me a position unable to defend myself! Giano (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I came here after your latest snipe on my talk page. Your comments here, read together with your latest on my talk page, appear to be an allegation that I was in some way involved in whatever this dispute here is about. Please either file an ANI complaint or a checkuser ... or drop your unfounded sniping. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Snipe, My dear, is a very overrated dish, but since you insist she who who snipes first [63] will generally find herself looking very silly. Giano (talk) 22:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, it is extremely unlikely (less likely than Jimbo turning up at your house with a bottle of really expensive wine, together with a third of ArbCom singing "Hosannah") that BrownHairedGirl has anything to do with the trolling - she is the type of admin that I wish I could be in some areas. No individual can be responsible for the actions of their "disciples" - or for anyone who sees an avenue for attacking someone they do not care for. In this instance I think that your disapproval of BHG (or her WP personae) has clouded your judgement. I really think the best thing is to step back - both of you - in this matter. Please. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

...and what makes you think Jimbo and I don't often share a bottle of Dom P together, while being serenaded by the Arbcom accompanied by Uninvited Company on his organ? Giano (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess the quality of the wine might depend on how 'twas paid for. Sarah777 (talk) 22:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

*Withholds smart-aleck comment about expenses* Risker (talk) 22:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

... cos he is eating a 'ansome Pastie (and only emmetts say "Cornish Pastie") at the Slaughtered Lamb, St. Buryan! LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about LHVU? Please remember this is an intelligent page, only posted on by the intelligent. I have never eaten a pastie in my life, and that film was appalingly awful. And who on earth is St Bunyan - I hate Cornwall, all those one sided trees, and people thinking they are "new age" or whatever, when frankly they are just unwashed and odd. Come to think of it half of them probably edit Wikipedia. Giano (talk) 18:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

"unwashed and odd." I didn't know Cornwall was in Northern California? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

All people are odd, unless perhaps if they are conjoined twins - in which case they are rare. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Good is an odd number and evil is an even number (Trinity, the thrice trinity, vs. the cloven hooves, the devil and anti-Christ). Therefore, it's good to be odd, and getting even is bad. Utgard Loki (talk) 12:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Palazzo Pitti

Hi again, If you feel Palazzo Pitti is high importance please feel free to change it, however you could take a look at The "importance scale" on Wikipedia:WikiProject Museums/Assessment which says "Major Museums of specific types" & "Well known Museums" are Mid with "National Museums", "Types of Museums" & "International Museum Organisations" are High. It would be great if you would join the discussion about these at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Museums where perceptions of "greatest paintings" can see if they get general acceptance - but I don't think the sites selected for your ashes will make it into the criteria.— Rod ^talk 19:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh I really can't be bothered. I expect it's just another dreary stop on most people's intinery. Who cares anyway? Those that are interested know where it is. Giano (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User:Vintagekits

Please stop the edit war over at User:Vintagekits. There is absolutely no policy in WP:BP or anywhere else that supports either view in this rather trivial incident to get excited about. Most blocking admins do tend to replace the whole userpage with the blocked template, because;

• the blocked user cannot edit Wikipedia with that account anymore, so what is the point of having a userpage, and,
• a simple page made up of the blocked template makes it much clearer to passers by that this account is now inactive. There have been pranks occuring where people apply blocked templates to others / their own userpages for a laugh, and it could get mistook for one of those.

Please leave the page as it is now. It is really not worth warring over and getting blocked over. Thankyou. Lradrama 10:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Had a respected and reputable admin decided the page had to be blanked that would be one thing, but Kittybrester trolling is quite another matter [64]. The reason why the page should not be blocked are adequatly explained in it's history and elsewhere. The Editor has written and created many valuable pages. Do not come here threatening to block me - because it cuts little ice, and does not alter my views or actions in the slightest. Giano (talk) 12:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

If there are things people need from the userpage, then they can get it via looking through the history. And all the admins involved in this are respected and reputable thankyou, there's no need to snap like that. The userpage has been protected once, we shouldn't have to do it again. We have discussed this elsewhere, and if you continue to be disruptive and contradict anyone else, you will be blocked for edit warring. That will be a shame, and no-one, at heart, wishes to do that to you. That is the decision of more than one person / admin. Please stop. Thankyou. Lradrama 13:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't come here threatening and telling me not to be disruptive, you clearly have no idea of the problems many are anxious to avoid in that area. I suggest you go and do some research. Finally, if you want to make a name for yourself I am happy to advise you, but I suggest you do it in the normal way, your 10 minutes of fame for blocking me, will hardly put you in the celebrity bracket! Giano (talk) 13:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Kittybrewster could have been more communicative with the manner in which he advanced his approach. Likewise, Lradrama's approach comes across as overly intimidating and distant. There's no urgency here. El_C 13:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry E1 C we are quite used to such behaviour on this page, in fact it is deliberatly intended by the Arbcom - I hate to dissapoint. If ever anyone ever wanted banning for deliberated disruption it is them. I'm sure it gives them a little thrill every time it happens, and allows Uninvited to have a whinge from the organ loft that is his own chatroom.Giano (talk) 13:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I can help. El_C 13:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've got the totally wrong end of the stick here. I am not doing this for fame or celebrity or anything at all like that, what do you think I am? I'm am no attention seeker (and if you look at my userpage - the big, fat, Awesome Wikipedian AWARD is just one of the reasons why I'm perfectly happy with my administrator 'image' at the moment). That's the first time ever I've been forced to point out good things about myself to others, and trust me, I don't like having to do it. If you want to be patronising when all I was doing was making a request, then I want nothing more to do with you. I won't ask next time...I'll just do what needs doing. Lradrama 17:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Certainly living up to the 'drama' part of the username with threats like this. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 18:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I've changed my mind after thinking about this. Someone left a very valid point in our discussion. Giano II, despite having a very curious way of discussing things here, has made some very valuable contributions to Wikipedia also. I cannot block someone like this, and the edit war has stopped anyway now. We've reached a conclusion that if the malarky continues, the userpage will be protected. End of argument. Lradrama 18:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You can't block me because you have no reason to block, if you take the time look at the edits you will see there are no 3Rs. Now go and do your research, and I don't need you to point out the value my contributions. Giano (talk) 20:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It's resolved. The situation could have been handled better (and not only by me, I might add). It's best we never cross each other's paths again ;-). Lradrama 21:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? what on earth are you talking about now? Have admins such as yourself nothing more useful to do about the project? I suggest you go and find constructive to do. Giano (talk) 22:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Winter Palace images

Giano, I happened to notice you were working on the Winter Palace article - there are a lot of freely-licensed images here. If there are any you would like, just let me know and I'd be happy to copy them to the project for you. Kelly ^hi! 12:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think we have those views. Images needed are those taken in the courtyards, or from the small estern garden, or (in our dreams) very good quality interior shots - having said Alex and I have uploaded some brilliant watercolours of the interiors - this could be one of the good pages, but it os going to be a very slow job, as it need to be thought through, and I'm still incertain how to play it - using so much information but still keeeping the page reaonably concise and interesting. Giano (talk) 13:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I grabbed some interior shots - not sure if you can use any of them but have a look when you get a chance:

• Image:Winter Palace State Room.jpg
• Image:Winter Palace State Room 2.jpg
• Image:Hermitage archway.jpg
• Image:Inside Winter Palace.jpg
• Image:The Great Coach.jpg
• Image:Ambassadors' Staircase.jpg
• Image:Winter Palace through arch.jpg
• Image:The State (Jordan, or Ambassadors') Staircase.jpg
• Image:The State (Jordan, or Ambassadors') Staircase 2.jpg
• Image:Throne in the Hall of Peter the Great.jpg
• Image:Gold pillars in Armorial Hall.jpg
• Image:Elaborate doors in Armorial Hall.jpg
• Image:St. George Hall throne.jpg

This is just a sampling of some that I was able to dig up...if this is the type of thing you're searching for, or have any special requests, I will be happy to try. I found many interior Hermitage shots, but I'm not sure if you're interested in any of those or just strictly the Winter Palace for now. Kelly ^hi! 16:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Some of those we have, some we don't - thanks - the courtyard one is good. The Hermitage is not being included in the page, this was the result of opinions sought on the tal pages of both by the editors concerned with the pages. hence the page will concentrate just on the palace and events prior to 1918, rather than it's renaissance as part of the Hermtage. I'm not sure how this will pan out, but pan out it will. Giano (talk) 16:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I will pull together as many images as I can and try to organize them into some kind of semi-coherent galleries on Commons, organized by room, if possible. I'll drop you a note when I'm done, if it's OK, and you can have a look at the images to pick out the best. If I can find enough good images, some of the links from the piano nobile diagram could possibly be to galleries on Commons rather than individual images...what do you think? Kelly ^hi! 16:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The piano nobile images are only plonked there at the moment so I remember what is what. Giano (talk) 16:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

I think Renaissance architecture is in need of protection! You are doing a noble job there, but it the problem appears to be never ending. Amandajm (talk) 07:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Mention on [WP ANI, no point me saying anything they will say I am being mean to vandals! Giano (talk) 08:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vintagekits' user page

You might want to weigh in on the ANI discussion here - Alison ^❤ 08:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• I have said all I wish to here [65]. I shall not be commenting further as I'm tired of these protracted Wikipedia threads where whichever 14 year old shouts loudest and last gets to carry the day. We all know, if only privately, some of the factions and behind the scenes politics that VK was fighting against. His methods may have been wrong and misguided, and I may not condone his behaviour, but I can give him some understanding. I have never yet trashed the grave of an an enemy or a friend, an I have no intention of being party to such petty, puerile and pointless actions now. You must do as you think best Alison. Giano (talk) 09:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a trend?

That's twice in 24 hours when I have unequivocally agreed with you - MONGO and Vintagekits. Obviously Bishzilla has burned some sense into one or both of us. Guy (Help!) 15:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it worrying isn't it, God knows what Bishzilla will say when she returns from her sunny sojourn at my Palazzo Splendido, Caymen isalnds. (all credit card booking accepted).Roar, I expect. Giano (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Needless to say I am not happy about the way things turned out either. Sometimes drama gets whipped up to the point where it takes on a life of its own - I'm pretty sure if that had been any other user and I'd unblocked in the way I did, there would have been next to no reaction. Instead I end up having to reblock because the masses feel that punishment of this nature achieves something. Sad days, indeed. Orderinchaos 15:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I find it disturbing that someone gets blocked for insufficient subservience to the commands of the Wikipedia boyars. Kelly ^hi! 15:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

In my real world existence I am an educator. I have found in that context that punishment for its own sake only makes things worse rather than solving anything, and what is better is a measured approach to things. In my view blocks are handed out all too readily for certain kinds of offences (and I use that word with a deliberate double meaning), and never readily enough for the ones that actually harm the encyclopaedia. If one works in content and it becomes necessary to rid an article or subproject of a thoroughly tendentious SPA troll, it's almost impossible and can take weeks or months, seeing valuable editors driven off the project in disgust in the meantime, unless you can prove they are a sockpuppet. Orderinchaos 16:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• In the great scheme of things I don't regard "get lost," in the heat of a moment, as particularly offensive. The Admin was presumptious and patronising. I'm afraid in my considerable experience many of these admins are promoted after being here for a few months, voted for by their friends, and then want to strut about with shiny little badges expecting due deference. Sadly, for them neither the world nor Wikipedia functions in quite that way. That one should be so stupid as to think he could block Mongo for a week for the crime of failing to massage his ego beggars belief, but there you are - the clones all squeak with anger at a perceived insult to one of their own. Of course, it all boils down to damn the content, but protect the cliques and the egos. What should have happened was that the blocking admin should have been immediately de-sysoped and sent for re-training. Giano (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't either - I've heard far worse from my students! :)
  • Re the general point, I think the sad reality on the modern Wikipedia is that compared to even 2 years ago when I first arrived, many admins are not editors, and stopped being so a long time ago (a case of "ye shall know them by their contribs"...) If they do go into mainspace it's usually solely to revert vandalism or continue a battle with someone they are already in a dispute with. Solid editing is the main thing that makes the encyclopaedia what it is, creates our best articles and develops the reach of knowledge we cover, and yet this has become an extremely low priority for many of the "new generation" of admins (although plenty of readily identifiable exceptions exist). Orderinchaos 13:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I am encouraged by the fact that so many are now coming to that few, but until the arbcom are forced (and it will eventually be by force) to accept that view little can change. The power structure of Wikipedia is now so at odds with the fundametal concepts of the project, that the encyclopedia either will improve or implode. Giano (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well it does look like the Arbcom are now being forced kicking and screaming to accept the case after so many voted with suspiciously indecent haste to reject it, the trouble is having seen how quick they were to reject before half the evidence was presented - what confidence can one have in them? Giano (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RFA thanks

Thanks for your support in my RFA, that didn't quite make it and ended at 120/47/13. There was a ton of great advice there, that I'm going to go on. Maybe someday. If not, there are articles to write! Thanks for your support. Lawrence § t/e 17:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I am truly sorry, you could have been one of the best. Let's face it you could hardly have been worse than some I could care to mention today. Giano (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

He will be one of the best. Give it three months. Jehochman ^Talk 02:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen Star Wars? I know, it's horrible American culture. [66] Jehochman ^Talk 02:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Exploding Houses

How's it coming along? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 19:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh still exploding! Giano (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't suppose I could make a few banal and repetitive edits to it? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 08:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you suppose correctly. Giano (talk) 08:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfAr

Hey Giano, just letting you know I removed your section in the arbitrators voting section. As I hope you can understand, to leave such comments there will create a major headache in many cases to come. I'm sure the arbitrators will see your most recent comment via the use of a subsection, which will appear in the table of contents (and stand out a tad!). Edit summary; happy to discuss if you disagree. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 12:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh that's most kind. Thank you. Giano (talk) 12:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you have that flapping bird facing to the right before? Did you, in short, flip the bird? Utgard Loki (talk) 12:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the rampant/sinister FAC criteria Loki - I believe the bird is now sinister. --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean it's a ... a... bastard bird? (Forgot to sine my wave.) Utgard Loki (talk) 12:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so, he's as he's always been...........isn't he? Giano (talk) 12:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but I was worrying about my own Norwegian blue who ain't moved at all since I got him, and I thought your bird had been flipping all about the flippin' cage. Utgard Loki (talk) 13:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. It occurs to me that my comment probably unhelped someone. They had been aided entirely, but then my reference to Monty Python unhelped them. Utgard Loki (talk) 18:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request

I've just read most of your essay, "A fool's guide to writing a featured article", which I found highly enlightening and entertaining! An article I'm currently working on, Elaine Paige, has been put up for a peer review by myself, but it hasn't really sparked much interest. I was wondering that if you had some time to spare (I know time is always of the essence here on Wikipedia) could you perhaps briefly skim the article and give some suggestions for improvement? If I'm feeling brave enough, I might even nominate it for FAC, it depends really. If you haven't the time, then no worries. Many thanks. Eagle Owl (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Most? Most? what's wrong with the rest of it. I will take a look sooner rather than later - delighted to. Giano (talk) 19:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Made some comments here for you [67]. It's almost there, as someone else has just said also, just check on those refs to make sure they meet the criteria. Giano (talk) 07:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for your time and comments! It's much appreciated. Eagle Owl (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Want to read some articles?

Want something to take your mind off IRC stuff? Why not try reading about the 19th century scientists I've been creating stubs on? Have a look at Augustus Matthiessen, George Fownes, Thomas Snow Beck, Martin Barry, and John Allan Broun. What do you think? Carcharoth (talk) 23:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I looked at one of them and raised hard questions on the talk page. Geogre (talk) 10:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations on another Main Page appearance - Prince's Palace of Monaco

[68] What a lovely sight. I shall mark my calendar for April 28th - and reserve the evening before for vandalism patrol. Risker (talk) 07:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh hell! people will think I write about nothing but palaces, I do seem rather stuck on them of late, better do another boxer to counteract all this culture next - could be quite apt really a quick biff zap pow. Giano (talk) 07:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Do a video game next! *ducks* dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Do a neglected Neapolitan pop star! An Edit Piaf of Sicily or a Madonna of Roma would surely hit the main page. (Deader is better, of course, but "stable information" doesn't seem important at FAC anymore.) Geogre (talk) 10:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:AE

[69] FYI. Avruch ^T 16:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I've posted at both FT2's talk page and at the WP:AE thread. I have asked everyone to calm down, and I think one thing that would go a long way towards that would be if you apologised to FT2 for the edit summary you used. Please. For the sake of all our sanities, just apologise, however grudgingly or briefly. Carcharoth (talk) 17:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I shall be making a post regarding FT2 in a while. It will be full and very frank, and contain information that I would not in other circumstances be happy to post on Wikipedia. It will not contain an apology. Giano (talk) 18:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, man, don't. It's going to be zero sum, you know, even to you, and certainly for him. Utgard Loki (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussions are ongoing! Zero sum for me - I have nothing to lose. Giano (talk) 19:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The AE thread has been closed. I think (and others agree) that this was essentially a continuation of the long discussion about the past block/unblock. There were many questions and comments about that block/unblock. The continued queries about different aspect of the issue blended in with the block discussion kept the discussion going long past the time of an ordinary discussion about a block/unblock.

I hope everyone that asked and answered a question about the block will reflect on whether continuing the discussion was helpful or caused more stress. Less (from everyone) can be more... :) Have a nice night. Take care, FloNight♥♥♥ 23:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would have been best if those who cooked up the sanctions against me had though of where they were going to lead before imposing them. I'm afraid FT2's distortions of the truth have now become part of the problem too. I may post further on this in the morning, at the moment I am taking advice on future steps. Giano (talk) 23:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I hope, Flo, that those who block and set the conditions for blocks are considering whether they increase or decrease stress, as well. I am not sure that stress reduction is the goal of Wikipedia. Massagers do that better. However, the stresses brought out by discussion of the block and particularly the issues behind it are necessarily stressful to those people adhering to a corrupt and corrupting medium. How much utility to the project would be lost by the abandonment of the sooper sekrit channels? How much disruption would be lost? I see the cost/benefit analysis purely in favor of getting rid of the "some admins, some others, some times, all secret" IRC playground, as I have yet to hear of a single good thing it specifically does for Wikipedia. I don't ask even for a long list -- just one good that it does that is not done better otherwise. Like Diogenes, I hold my lamp and wait. Geogre (talk) 01:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thank spam

Thank you for voting in my RfA, which passed with 194 supporting, 9 opposing, and 4 neutral. Your kindness and constructive criticism is very much appreciated. I look forward to using the tools you have granted me to aid the project. I would like to give special thanks to Tim Vickers, Anthony and Acalamari for their nominations. Thank you again, VanTucky

[edit] Taking my case to the Arbcom

Hello Giano you may remember me from the day a chance remark on your talk page led to me being blocked indefinitely. As you may know, I am appealing my block to the Arbcom. Only one problem: they are ignoring every email and communication I am making with them, despite having invited me to make this appeal in December. If there is any help you or your friends could give, I would be so grateful. Yours, Peter. Peter Damian (talk) 17:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• No I didn't know, but having done some quick re-search I do now. To be quite honest, no, I don't remember you ever posting here, or anyone ever having been blocked for posting here - how exiting - what on earth did you say? I can't find you in my history either, are you sure you have the right person? I am Giano II - the Devil's representitive on Wikipedia. I see you have been blocked again since posting, well my email works, if no else provides the link or explanation first. Giano (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• I have had a good look into your case today, all I can find are diffs and links which seem to lead to dead ends. I cannot even find any records of your RFAR from December 2007. Which is very odd. However, I have also found one or two things which I personally find disturbing. If you have followed my wikipedia career you will know that while I'm not averse to charging head on into trouble, I usually understand at least the direction and path I am following. In this instance I don't think I'm the right person to battle on your behalf. Bearing in mind the other person concerned in this case, any input from me would be misjudged and misconstrued by others. I also find the subject matter nauseating. As you are forbidden from commenting on Wikipedia, I think you need to find someone who is completely even handed, respected and unafraid of what they may unearth, to represent you. I'm sorry, it cannot be me. Giano (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Instructions to not add an infobox to Little Moreton Hall

I've reverted your addition of this, since it seems to have been added with no reason. There should be either a specific discussion about this on the article's talk page, or there should be a pointer to a more centralised discussion, since I see you have added this message to many such articles without any good reason for it being added given.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano, I have commented on the article's talk page, and copied my comments over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cheshire as well; you may wish to add to them. Risker (talk) 22:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Those with the attention span of a gnat, and inability to read what is in the first four lines of the lead, and those who enjoy seeing high quality images reduced to the size of postage stamps may see the need for a box. Those of a higher intelligence may prefer to read, learn and enjoy a page. Giano (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am asked to draw your attention to this: WP:AN/I#Derogatory comments in apparent contravention of an Arbcomm ruling.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you want a truly incivil comment? Because beleive me I can furnish you with one if you want. In the meantime go and talk to the Arbs - whose intention it was that people like you should be popping out of the woodwork every five minutes over every trivial matter. They may have to time to waste, I do not. Giano (talk) 11:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reading over PPofM

Question - is there a different meaning of enfilade besides the one the link leads to? Perhaps something more architectural? This definition just doesn't seem to fit very well in this sentence: "Designed as an enfilade and a ceremonial route to the throne room, the processional route begins with an external horseshoe-shaped staircase which leads from the court of honour to the open gallery known as the Gallery of Hercules." Just seems a little odd to have a combination ceremonial route and firing range, but what do I know about medieval castles? Risker (talk) 05:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Solved my own problem by linking to Wiktionary, where there is an architectural definition. On the other hand, Illustration #3 may need some work still. Is it intended to represent the palace as it exists today? If so, D is an existing chapel, not a future one; and C now includes private apartments and the Napoleon Museum. Copy edit has been done, I'll try to identify any wonky reference sources later today. Risker (talk) 08:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is, I will create Enfilade (architecture), trouble is I am pushed today so won't have time to find a ref, can you watch it so that no twit deleted it. Or better still perhaps Wetman will feel the urge to add something. Thanks. Giano (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Much better, thanks. I've put it on my watchlist, and it has passed newpage patrol so, barring someone being terribly silly, the page should be fine. Did you have a chance to consider the points for Illustration 3? I'm working on the references now. Risker (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh you are kind! I appreciate it, I can never find my own typos etc. Don't worry about the private apartments, I don't think they are mentioned in the page anyway, I think the Napoleon Museum is in the little bottom left hand corner without a letter, so better to ignore than make an error. Giano (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't have mentioned them if they weren't in the text :P but am happy to just change the chapel over and leave out the apartments and museum. Now I remember why bunched references are such a nuisance, to change one of the series means finding all the rest of them and making sure they're okay. Risker (talk) 18:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I've swapped over two of the three "Royal Scribe" references to Edwards; the only one left is the quote on Illustration #16. Edwards doesn't really give me anything suitable to replace the caption quote; however, she refers to another book, Monte Carlo and Public Opinion, published in England in 1884, that is bound to have all kinds of scathing quotes in it, as it is a series of essays giving reasons for the casino to be closed. Risker (talk) 18:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

All Royal scribe cites have now gone, Wetman has managed to find the source for the far better quote! so all is well that ends well. Giano (talk) 19:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Not bad, a lot of work got done, with 5 hours to spare. That quote is ever so picturesque. ;-) Risker (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

It all rather proves my pont about not overelying on websites for refs! Giano (talk) 19:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Tell me about it. I wrote a "good" article on a contemporary musician based almost entirely on printed sources, because the web-based info was of such poor quality. Risker (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Help, help"

Giacomo, do you remember this link on your page ? A call for help indeed. I'm worried about it. Bishonen | talk 10:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC).

Oh!!! I had rather forgotten that one. I see <said meaningfully> We will have to give that some thought. Giano (talk) 14:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Recommended reading: this, the links therefrom, and the contributions list. The last of these shows real intelligence. As well as something like its opposite. Perhaps the latter is understandable, but I've got more pressing things to do with my time than investigate. Maybe he'd better decide if he wants to be (a) an editor, (b) an attention-seeker, or (c) both. If he settles on (a), I'm willing to consider his predicament. -- Hoary (talk) 10:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. That banned user has no other recourse for becoming again "an editor" than by managing to rouse a little attention for his predicament. The choice you present him with is in other words non-existent. I can appreciate the lack-of-time argument, but not your superior taunting of a user whose situation you have not investigated—no, not even with a superior compliment thrown in. "Call yourself an admin," Hoary? Bishonen | talk 11:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC).

• Am I being more dense than usual, what is the significance of thar link? Giano (talk) 11:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm afraid you are, yes. Bishonen | talk 13:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC).
• There's a link from it to some part of "Wikipedia Review"; try that. -- Hoary (talk) 13:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Bishonen, he got my attention, by his turn at Wales's user talk page. I then followed him up to the Postmodernism page. A quick look suggested that his edits there were (their summaries aside) good. I told him so, and also chided him for his edits on Wales's page. I had no idea who he was, and wasn't much interested. He then gave the link to "Wikipedia Review", which I took. I ignored the tedium running through most of that page and concentrated on what was then near the end. It was easy to which writer there he was, and his username sounded familiar. So he'd now got my attention. He then chose to continue rather silly behavior -- a pity, as he seemed able to improve "Postmodernism" further. I haven't investigated his past and wouldn't do so even if he concentrated on cutting gibberish from "Postmodernism": I have to complete something in time for a Wednesday morning deadline. I'm willing to be persuaded to investigate his past, and alleged or actual injustices, some time after that (although I have to show my sister around the big city). ¶ I'm surprised that you would describe what I wrote as "superior taunting" but I shan't object. ¶ To my continuing surprise, yes, I'm an admin. I rarely call myself that. I try to prevent messes, and when they occur, mop them up: you'll know the score. If I'm asked to contribute beyond the normal call of duty, I'll usually listen and sometimes help. If I'm asked by somebody who seems distraught, I'm willing to make allowances. If, wearing my administrator hat, I chide somebody, that person certainly doesn't have to apologize (and indeed is welcome to defend himself); but if he simply continues, I'll probably spend my time elsewhere till he calms down. And if this makes me seem callous, so be it. ¶ Again, this fellow has got my attention. No matter what he does, I wouldn't do anything on his behalf till later this week at the very earliest. But my mind is still open. -- Hoary (talk) 13:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Greetings - sometimes silly behaviour works better. I have considerably tidied up the Postmodernism article. Another admin (see my talk page) has suggested I just open up another account and edit from there. I suppose I could. But I would rather do it the orthodox way. It seemed a bit dishonest to sneak in, and leaving the Wales's message seemed the best way. If you look at the more recent edits, they have no silly comments. And no taunting was intended, it was just a way of attracting attention. I must admit I was greatly cheered up to meet with 2 people (Hoary and the other guy) who actually do realise that we are trying to build an encyclopedia here. 86.133.180.53 (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have requested an amendment of your civility parole

As a courtesy, I would give you notice I have made a request here to amend the wording of your parole. I do this without any expectation that you are at all interested in such details, or that you would expect it to effect you in how you conduct yourself.

...but then, I'm not doing it for you! ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I can't see anything there. Not that it matters, the parole was dreamt up by the Arbcom in the hope that I would be so antagonzed by idiots and the IRC chatterers that I would give up and dissapear, and leave them with nice clean hands - well they have dirty hands and I am still here, so the whole thing was rather a waste of time, as this morning's fracas rather proves. I would not waste my time trying to reason with this Arbcom if I were you LHVU, as they don't see things like other people. Giano (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I put it in the wrong place - they have moved it (I'll stick the link here when I find it) - but it is an attempt to make it easier to deal with requests to the admin boards to execute blocks per Arbcom Enforcement. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but I shall not be looking, all that will happen will be certain "editors" using is a further opportunity to "slag me off" in a pompous and self-righteous way, when they would be better deployed writing a page.Giano (talk) 16:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

to LHVU - while an interesting adaptation, I think the previous irc clarification request is a better solution in this case (get the nutters who have it for G out of the picture), and a broader discussion of a) civility, and b) 'established contributor' v. 'unestablished'. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Enfilade

Hello Giano, well done on starting this one. I have added the Palace of Westminster, with plan and description. Feel free to re-write if you wish, as given your architectural expertise you are better placed. By the way, I note all the shenanigans that regularly take place on Wikipedia and therefore offer you tea and sympathy...

with a shout of "More power to your elbow!" As you were, then. FClef (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Taking my case to the Arbcom

Hello Giano you may remember me from the day a chance remark on your talk page led to me being blocked indefinitely. As you may know, I am appealing my block to the Arbcom. Only one problem: they are ignoring every email and communication I am making with them, despite having invited me to make this appeal in December. If there is any help you or your friends could give, I would be so grateful. Yours, Peter. Peter Damian (talk) 17:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• No I didn't know, but having done some quick re-search I do now. To be quite honest, no, I don't remember you ever posting here, or anyone ever having been blocked for posting here - how exiting - what on earth did you say? I can't find you in my history either, are you sure you have the right person? I am Giano II - the Devil's representitive on Wikipedia. I see you have been blocked again since posting, well my email works, if no else provides the link or explanation first. Giano (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• I have had a good look into your case today, all I can find are diffs and links which seem to lead to dead ends. I cannot even find any records of your RFAR from December 2007. Which is very odd. However, I have also found one or two things which I personally find disturbing. If you have followed my wikipedia career you will know that while I'm not averse to charging head on into trouble, I usually understand at least the direction and path I am following. In this instance I don't think I'm the right person to battle on your behalf. Bearing in mind the other person concerned in this case, any input from me would be misjudged and misconstrued by others. I also find the subject matter nauseating. As you are forbidden from commenting on Wikipedia, I think you need to find someone who is completely even handed, respected and unafraid of what they may unearth, to represent you. I'm sorry, it cannot be me. Giano (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Help, help"

Giacomo, do you remember this link on your page ? A call for help indeed. I'm worried about it. Bishonen | talk 10:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC).

[edit] So how is your day on the main page?

I found this really interesting story about the joys of being on the main page. No dongers so far, or at least if there was one I missed it, but all the rest seems to be coming true. Have a good Monday. Risker (talk) 06:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations Giano. Dongers Risker? What sensymake that? --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

To quote from a certain excellent essay: " Mind you, it is not as bad as it used to be when "the bloke with the big donger" used to appear as regular as clockwork enjoying his own company in a very gymnastic way in the lead every twenty minutes - but it's still a shock and it gets worse." If Giano has any sense, he'll wipe this out and let you find it in the history. Risker (talk) 17:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah I see - thanks Risker, puts me in mind of one of our better policies m:Friends of gays should not be allowed to edit articles - always good for a chuckle. --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you both. No - very quiet, just some demands for some more footnotes on the talk page, I'll dig some more out tomorrow, no point to day; and so far that is it, it is so boring it has hardly been vandalised at all. Giano (talk) 12:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That's because they haven't woken up yet in Monacco - still sleeping off last nights brandy and cigars - wait until they're all over dined, it'll be rife. --Joopercoopers (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox Easter

Hi Giano, as you probably know, this Sunday the Easter also arrived to the Eastern Orthodox world. To mark this event and make a small present for you, here is the great piece of one of my favorite Ukrainian painters depicting this event in my homeland as he saw it a little over 100 years ago. Enjoy! --Irpen 07:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Irpen. Христос воскрес! Giano (talk) 08:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Own Goal

Well said, sir. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 20:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• I mostly agree. I suspect we'll be seeing a lot less functionality of the en.wikipedia governance as well. All so avoidable. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sometimes on Random Page

You can sometimes find a good article mixed in with all the junk and junque. I just found De Rays Expedition, and it's pretty neat. Utgard Loki (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please clarify

Please clarify your remarks at User talk:Peter Damian, either on-wiki or by email. Thatcher 22:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sure Thatcher, you are quite old enough and able enough, to work them out for yourself. Giano (talk) 22:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps FT2 could clarify the remarks he made on my talk page. The 'real life consequences' bit is disturbing, no? Peter Damian (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Something for your spring wardrobe

You might find this little outfit to be just what you need for those interesting little tête-à-têtes you're so fond of[70]. I think the colour would suit you. Risker (talk) 22:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I had wondered when anyone would tract me to Giano II - now there's page one of you could expand. Giano (talk) 08:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever seen an ancient suit of armor up close, in a museum? They're tiny--ancient man was much smaller than modern man. Unless Giano is 5' 1", he may need to strip off part of that armor and use it as beachwear. A steel codpiece as a thong? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that was a mental image I really didn't need to have.  ;-) Risker (talk) 23:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I was taken sightseeing to the Tower of London as a child and remember Henry VIII's suit of armour. It was quite small, but mother was very amused by it's proportionately extremely capacious cod piece with an ingenious hinge and locking pin arrangement. Clearly being the playboy king of england allowed some artistic license in these matters. --Joopercoopers (talk) 08:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you know? - I read this thread earlier, and just knew someone was going to mention that - trust it to be you JC. Giano (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Your obedient servant [71] --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry JC, I don't have time for you and your infantile vulgarities I have a new FA to work on Giano II. Such an interesting person. Giano (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Ermm...always pleased to be of service in the development of excellent content? Risker (talk) 15:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Tsk. That's a clear conflict of interest! :-) I took a quick look for other Giano's, and I found your kingdom, sir, a writer on the On the Dignity and Excellence of Man, your holiday home, and a disambiguation page that needs expanding. By the way, if you ever do apply for the mop, make sure you tell people that you are this super-admin! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 09:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Let us not forget the excellent and incomparable Giacomo Zabarella, the Italian logician and Renaissance Aristotelian, who wrote this magisterial work on Logic (stop yawning). Unfortunately our article about him is rather crap, I shall have to do something about that now I am back from exile like Garibaldi. Peter Damian (talk) 16:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] VK terms

Those terms are fine by me, they should appease the sceptical as they look pretty weasel-proof (I like the idea of including clauses against even trying to wikilawyer them). If he will sign up for that, I think it will be a good result for the project. Only one thing: the subject area might eb slightly wider, perhaps including all sporting articles not related to the Troubles, broadly interpreted. I think he wants to work on Olympic subjects other than just boxing, but I could be wrong about that. Guy (Help!) 09:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks I wil transfer your comment above over to the talk page. Giano (talk) 09:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bastard pics

I've added the Bastard pics of the Bastard study in the Bastard house, but the sizing is all to cock. Can you fiddle please Giano? Captions probably need tinkering with as well as I don't know my cornicing from my coping. Cheers Jasper33 (talk) 20:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Carnildo is back

A few months ago I was able to, through lengthy discourses with arbcom-l (ones which especially emphasized their own responsibility, publicly), to arrange for a new approach toward dealing with pro-pedophilia activists (including self-declared ones). The result was highly positive: these were to be banned on sight, and all discussion (including appeals) were to be facilitated in private with the Arbitration Committee. For months and months the new policy worked without any substantive objections from admins, not to mention outright rebellion.

Que in Carnildo a few days ago who went to unblock a recently-banned self-identified account (blocked by Dmcdevit). The account was re-blocked a few days later by an AC member (Morven), although unfortunately with zero consequences or even a warning from our benevolent Committee. Then today, Carnildo maintains that he "would have reacted more forcefully if the user hadn't apparently left the project a month ago", adding that "there's no real point in fighting a battle for someone who isn't here anymore." Which seems to be a declaration of rebellion with the AC and their decision, and a willingness to "fight" it out in the future (including undiscussed unblocks, ones not cleared with the AC).

Therefore, I am going to ask that the Pedophilia RfAr (which infamously desysop'd Carnildo for having blocked both yourself & yours truly indefinitely for "hate speech") to be reopened so his conduct is examined and his sysop flag removed for breach of ethics. Any thoughts? Best, El_C 21:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The Committee is already doing it out of concerns similar to what you have stated. If you want, send a post to the mailing list fully stating your concerns. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Roger that. El_C 22:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks El C, my views on the suitability of paedophiles, professed paedophiles and paedophile sympathisers to edit any public project such as this where minors not only edit, but have access to email and talk page messaging facilities is widely known, and remains completely unchanged. It is my view, that all of us have a moral duty of care to those editors we believe to be minors. For the time being I'm happy give the Arbcom an initial opportunity to sort this one out before I dive in. I shall watch with interest. Giano (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• For sure, Giano; I'll keep you updated on my end. Granted, the controversial, low-support RfA-resysoping of Carnildo (disgracefully, without him even touching on the underlying issues that led to the desysop —and especially seeing how he was nominated by Committee member Uninvited Company) was a significant step backwards for the project on that front. But the new AC policy (or shall we say, directive), which I am proud to have initiated, more than offset that, I find. Now we have Carnildo regressing back (not surprisingly —if anything, I'm surprised it took him over a year into his resysophood and many months since the new AC directive). I, too, am pleased to give the AC the opportunity to deal with the matter privately, especially, considering the positive precedence they recently set as per the new directive. Best, El_C 22:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Any announcements from ArbCom as the result of this investigation is going to be very interesting - and potentially shake bureaucratship and RfA's foundations to its very core. - Mailer Diablo 06:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Query

I note your statement here with interest. Are you able to point me to where BHG was warned for using her admin tools to block Vk? I'd be interested to see that. What are you trying to achieve here, to score points over admins you've disagreed with, or to write an encyclopedia? Can you honestly say, hand-on-heart, that allowing Vk to edit again is likely to be a net benefit to the project? Please answer here, I'll watch it. Thanks in advance. --John (talk) 15:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[72] perhaps you did not realise FLo Night is an Arb. I have no need to score points, regarding VK if I did not feel he is of net value to the project I would not be wasting my time trying to defend him. If he can be left unhindered and unantagonised he would be of very great use. I have not time for those who are not. Giano (talk) 15:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply. I have lot of time for you and your contributions, although I often disagree with your methods. I even voted for you last time you ran (as did the editor you are defending, several times as it later emerged). I wish you could stand up for this troubled editor without maligning the good intentions of those like myself and BHG who hold a different position. Best wishes to you, --John (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I was very grateful for all the suport I received. I just did not realise I had quite so much of it from VK. I think you are confusing pointing out things that need ponting out with maligning. Keeping secret what needs to be in the public domain is seldom malignant in my experience, in fact, quite the reverse. Giano (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Seacole

I've seen that you've contributed before to the Mary Seacole article, would you like to become involved again? Rudget (Help?) 17:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I have not realy got the time, I was really just helping ALoan who was trying to get it to FAC standard, and felt he could not see the wood for the trees, as at his request, I did a little de-forrestation. It had become on his very long term projects. Thanks for asking. Giano (talk) 19:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I'd like to thank you for responding, all too often people don't. Regards, Rudget (Help?) 20:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Not at all, you ought to look at some of the stuff I removed, it was quite a hatchet job, as I recall. You may want to re-ad some of it, or at least find it of use. Giano (talk) 20:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quinta da Regaleira

Hello Giano. As I wrote in my e-mail, here are a few pics I took yesterday at Quinta da Regaleira. I hope they draw your interest to this most astonishingly remarkable place.

Best regards, Húsönd 15:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Husond, that really is Gothic fantasia, we shall have to do some research on that one, I have never seen anything like it, it certainlt deserves a proper page - do you have any further info? Giano (talk) 22:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll e-mail you the estate map. I haven't started looking for references yet, so far I have only a brief description of the place written on a pamphlet I brought from there. I'll be using that as the beginnings of this article's expansion, and I will also be translating information from the IPPAR website. Regards, Húsönd 02:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Great thanks, just as soon as the Russian house is finished, we will have a good look at it, in the meantime you might want to like at this this, looks like two of a kind - architecturally it is not as rare, as a first glance, as you may think. Regards. Giano (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nice work

[73] Always great to see excellent contributors turning over a new leaf. Let's hope this is a model for addressing similar situations in the future. Risker (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic Revival monumental architecture

Hi Giano. Would you be interested in Albert Memorial? I've taken it as far as I can (well, maybe a bit more on the history from the nice online history), but the architectural stuff is a bit beyond me. Any advice? Carcharoth (talk) 14:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is a horrible hideous structure that wants dynamiting. Giano (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL! :-) Prince Albert would probably have agreed with you. Have a close-up look at it in this featured picture candidate. Carcharoth (talk) 15:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

My first ever flat in London was almost opposite the bloody monstrosity, I know what it looks like, it is ingrained in my mind for ever. Giano (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I bet you never went underneath it though! Out of interest, what other "monstrosities" have had the misfortune to feel the force of your disapproval? :-) Carcharoth (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

No, very true I never went underneath it, regarding other monstrosities, I will stick my neck out and say I am not wild about the 19th century cladding and alterations to the Duomo at Firenze. Strangely, and fortunatly for the tourist trade, it always seems to look better in photographs than it does in reality. If you look up at the brickwork above the marble cladding it is quite beautiful - but there you are - odd things happen. Giano (talk) 23:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a quick look: Florence Cathedral#Façade: "This neo-gothic façade in white, green and red marble forms a harmonious entity with the cathedral, Giotto's bell tower and the Baptistery, but some think it is excessively decorated." Image:Duomo Firenze.jpg - I see what you mean. It doesn't quite work, does it? Oh well, back to Victorian London! Carcharoth (talk) 23:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the poor old Duomo is one of those buildings that has the first impression of being fantastical and wonderful, rather like meeting a painted courtesan, and like meeting a painted courtesan, as one comes know her, one realises all is not as it seems,and there are flaws not juts the features but also the personality. So dreadful is the exterior that while one is still in the throws of rapture the interior is a dissapointment, it is only later one finds its simplicity a relief. San Lorenzo is, in my view, the finest church in Firenze, even the Medici Mausoleum, in all it's vulgar marble glory is open and honest. Giano (talk) 09:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Libro d'Oro

Greetings, Giano. I notice that you've done a lot of work on Libro d'Oro, even to supplying a self-made image of a copy. Do you happen to possess, or have access to, a copy of the most recent (22nd) edition? Over the past few months a user named Mctrain (now indef blocked as a sockpuppet of the original Vitus Barbaro proponent, Tiki-two) has been readding a bunch of dubious material to Barbaro family and elsewhere—you may have noticed his activities on various Italian villa articles. Now that he's gone, at least for a while, I thought I'd start trying to clean up some of the material he's introduced. The main source he's cited for the material relating to the Barbaro family and various members thereof is Spreti's Enciclopedia storico-nobiliare italiana, which I can, without too much trouble, get my hands on to check his contributions. But he's cited the Libro d'Oro to introduce another mention of Vitus B., and I can't locate a local copy of that. He's not above playing fast and loose with sources; he likes to cite difficult-to-locate ones, and when he created an article about the supposed Vitus B.'s supposed mother, it took me some effort to track down the sources he cited, only to find that not one of them mentioned the lady or supported any of the information in the article. Anyway, if you can give me any Golden Book help, I'll appreciate it. Deor (talk) 22:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I well remember "Prince Vitus of America" from some time ago, I think that User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel was on the Barbaro track, and may be able to help you. As far as I know the Barbaro died out years ago. Even in the unlikely event that the heir to the Barbaro was alive and kicking in America, as an American citizen he would be exempt from holding any titles under American law - I beleive Americans have to renounce titles on obtaining citizenship - I'm sure someone watching this page will know the answer. I dont have a Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana with me at the moment, a 23rd edition was published in 2005. I'm sure if you email Il Collegio Araldico, (info@collegio-araldico.it) they will tell you what you want to know, they are usually quite helpful on these matters. Giano (talk) 22:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. (I find it hard to keep straight all the stories about Prince Vitus, but I think the most recent version of his activities, propounded by one User:Save venice late last year, had him currently living in Monaco rather than the United States.) Deor (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Antique toilet paper holder

I got there from Bishonen's awards page and just assumed that if it had an award it must be in mainspace. I only read the first two lines of the article and noticed an "unencyclopedic" phrase which I rectified. Then I read a couple more lines and suddenly realized I was reading a parody in user space. Egg on face there I'm afraid :/ Gatoclass (talk) 08:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I'm not really in the mood for toilet humour, but maybe I'll take a look through that tomorrow :) Gatoclass (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)