Talk:Ghost in the Shell/Archive 1

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This archive covers discussion from 2004 - 2005. Discussion was placed in this archive as it appeared in the main talk page and thus may not be in chronological order.

Talk archives for Ghost in the Shell (current talk page)
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Major Kusanagi's name

Is Major Kusanagi's name related to the sword Kusanagi of Japanese mythology? I know so little of Japanese culture that I can't even tell if they're pronounced the same. --Andrew 05:15, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

They are pronounced the same but I don't know about any connection. As a matter of fact, Kusanagi is one of somehow common names in Japan. Kusanagi Tsuyoshi is for example a famous actor and singer. -- Taku 05:19, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

So it could be a coincidence, then. But somehow with this author I wonder; after all, he named himself after a sword and he writes page after page of footnote. Thanks, though, I didn't know it was a common name. --Andrew 10:20, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

the sword

you can compare the kanji

According to Japanese mythology the Kusanagi Sword was one of the treasures possessed by the imperial family of Japan. It is said that the warrior who brandished it could beat a whole army. --Neuromancien 00:14, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

copyright violation?

http://www.tvave.com/CartoonNetwork-G/Ghost_in_the_Shell.php

This website has large portions of this article on it without any sources citing Wikipedia. Isn't that against Wikipedia policy? MisterCheese 04:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I've seen things like this before. There are at least 2 sites I know of that reproduced the Pigs Is Pigs (1937) article I originally created here a year ago. -- Jason Palpatine 09:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
What do we do about it though? I'm a bit reluctant to send an e-mail like it says to do in case of this. MisterCheese 18:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

soundtrack

Well, it's a classical soundtrack, so that's not exactly everyday, I'm sure people notice that :-P You can't remove a bit of information just because you happen not to have noticed yourself of course. What you can do perhaps is rephrase and add "the soundtrack was in a classical style, and written by ..." etc. But really, NPOVing needn't be taken to extremes. :) Kim Bruning 07:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The information was duplicated below in the section on the anime; I didn't feel it needed to be in both spots, but will leave it. -- Ian Maxwell 16:16, 2004 Aug 12 (UTC)

Philosophy

The article states that people in Gits have scientifically verified the existance of the soul. I question this. It seems to me that the term Ghost is always used rather vaguely. Is it possible that "Ghost" is a physical phenominum that they have named "ghost"?

jm: Ghost vs. Soul -- This is problematic in a translated work. I'll try to identify the key passages, and have a japanese friend of mine take a look at the original to see if my interpretation of the translation matches.

For example, a Ghost could be a neural network or digital simulation running a certain way? This would account for a "ghost hack", the detection of the "ghost" in the puppet master, and the fact that the Tachikomas in Stand Alone live but do not have a "Ghost"

By the end of Stand Alone's first season, doesn't Motoko state that the Tachikomas have begun to develop ghosts, or some sort of collective conscience? Kawa 18:44, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I think ghost refers to the consciousness created by the neural network, not the neural network itself. Neural network is neural network. Computer can be a neural network too. It's a mystery still at this age, how our consciousness "occurs". Anyway in the book and the anime, the term is not well-defined so we don't really know what it is... In a way, ghost refers to the mystery of mind. Don't you ever wonder why you're yourself? --Nc622 16:57, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

jm: That was the central revelation of the manga: that the puppet master was the first AI to to have a ghost/soul -- making him a living organism, rather than just an elaborate construct.

Though its hard to grasp the matter, I think that the intention of the Stand Along Complex writers is to allow for the Ghost to be a completly physical phenominum with related spiritual beliefs. jm: I agree. Shirow is deliberately ambiguous. In other words, when they say Ghost, they mean both physical/ and or spiritual. They mean, potentially, more than 1 thing at the same time. I found a reference to this once on the Internet, I can search for this latter if anyone wants.

Question: Do we know Motoko's camuflage influenced the creation of real life ones, or is it cooincidence?68.42.24.89 22:42, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

GiTS is explicitly referenced by the scientists who made the "camouflage" (it's actually just a clever projector, and only works for 1 point of view, but still ;-) ). Kim Bruning 08:03, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hi. Nice to meet you guys. About the term ghost, it was inspired by Arthur Koestler's book The Ghost in the Machine [1]. Here's a Japanese page; it says Shirow said he got the term from the book. [2] The concept of ghost was first used by a British philosopher, Gilbert Ryle, in his paper mocking the paradox of spirit-matter dualism. Shouldn't we add this to the text? --Nc622 18:26, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Excellent research. If you'd like to add that to the text just go ahead and do so. If it isn't perfect it'll be cleaned up quick enough! ;-) Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 23:26, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you Kim. I'm working on the addition but it doesn't fit right after the current paragraph. I think the definition of "ghost" should be clarified first.--Nc622 16:57, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about:
Make a link to Ghost (Gilbert Ryle) ("redlink it"), and pretend it already existed. You can fill in the new article later :-)
Kim Bruning 18:15, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I kinda changed the paragraph to fit with mine. Didn't change the whole thing. There is a link to Gilbert Ryle, although it doesn't mention about ghost. Umm.. I don't think the addition is good enough; I believe it's got some useful material but the explanation needs rephrasing or improvement. --Nc622 14:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Excellent start! :-) Kim Bruning 14:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In English we have several words for the loose collection of concepts clustered around the self. We make a stark divide between the MIND, the rational, abstract part of us with which we think, and the SOUL, a more metaphysical life essence with religious associations.

This distinction is does not continue across language barriers. In German, the word GEIST (ghost) can be used interchangeably for either of these concepts, and to Germans, the distinction made in English can seem somewhat unnatural.

Perhaps Koestler's term draws on the extension of the German term. He was after all, famously, a multi-linguist. This term GEIST, is probably more suitably vague than any of our words, MIND or SOUL, and it is probably the best assessment of the extension of the word GHOST in its usage in Ghost in the Shell.

An etymology of the term might be appropriate too. There is a lineage of terms, all of which feed into the terms we have today. In ancient greek we have NOUS (intellect or reason or mind, and, for plato, the rational part of the soul) and PSYCHE (animating breath, which is used often for a soul, or enduring essential spirit).In Latin, these two distinct concepts were covered by one word: MENS, and this word is used by Saint Augustine in his meditations, which is, incidentally, the work from which is drawn the uncited quote at the end of Ghost in the Shell. "When I was a child..."

With reference to the suggestion that Hegel's GEIST might be connected: Hegel's use of the term GEIST is different from the German vernacular usage. For Hegel, all of reality is GEIST, the word comes to represent the religious, artistic and philosophical reality of an entire culture, which evolves in stages. Commonly, GEIST, in Hegel's work, is translated as UNIVERSAL MIND, and stands for a collective consiousness, running through these three spheres of religion, art and philosophy. For Hegel, GEIST is everything, and is more OUT THERE, than IN HERE, which is what, I think, Ghost in the Shell's GEIST is all about. I would think that the vernacular use of the word is more relevant than Hegel's usage.

So I don't think Hegel's GEIST is related, but I do think GEIST is probably the most relevant origin of the GHOST in Ghost in the Shell.

-SABRETACHE

I have a question regarding the movie adaptation of Ghost in the Shell. It is explicitly stated in the making-of feature on my DVD release of Ghost in the Shell that the movie takes place in Hong Kong, which confuses me since I've always thought Project 2501 was developed by the nation of Japan and that both Section 6 and Section 9 originated from that same country. Could someone clarify this to me? --81.226.162.222 13:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the manga it's clear that Section 6 and Section 9 are part of the Japanese government. Shirow notes that this is inspired by the British system (e.g. MI5 and MI6) because Japan doesn't currently have any similar agencies. I'm don't see why they would change the setting to Hong Kong in the movie, given that HK is part of China, but I'd have to watch the movie again to make sure. - mako 15:13, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The manga and SAC are based in Newport City, Japan. However, the movies are based in Newport City which appears to be or be in Hong Kong, or possibly in China; I recall that this was "to disorient" Japanese viewers (I do not have a reference for this, I will have a look).

Additionally, the government system was based on the UK system: Prime Minister, Home Secretary, Foreign Minister, etc. This is stated in Shirow's notes in the GITS manga.

Asteroceras 13:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

In Ghost in the Shell, Major completely reproduces her stimulus of her entire organs including internal organs to maintain her ghost. In case of a technical transferring of a ghost from one body to another, the attempt normally results in failure since the ghost tends to deteriorate due to either the difference of system at the material level or the deficiency of the transferring protocol. The Puppet Master manages not to deteriorate its ghost when merging with Major because his system is the body of information itself, thereby avoiding a deterioration due to the deficiency at material level.

When in Ghost in the shell did she transfer her ghost from one body to another? In the series she never transfered her ghost to anyone. She did have multiple bodies but she transfered her cyber-brain case (holds brain and spinal cord) to another one of her bodies. She even remotely controlled a couple bodies. In the SAC series in episode 1 someone transfered to a different body using this method. I don't remember her ever transfering her ghost anywhere. We actually really never see the process but since thats the given method for transfering to different bodies I assume its the correct way.

Is it really neccessary to refer to ghost hacking as an of yet fictional activity? I found it distracting and pointless, it's assumed that fictional thing can become real eventually...

Philsophical discussion relating to GITS: SAC ep 15 "Time of the Machines – MACHINES DÉSIRANTES"

'Machines dèsirantes' ('desiring machines') is philosophical term developed by French philosophers Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari in their work Anti-Oedipus. In the second volume to Anti-Oedipus, A Thousand Plateaus, they use the terms 'agencement' and 'dispotif' which are translated into English as 'assemblage' instead of 'desiring machines'. The original term had too much of an unintended subjective interpretation. 'Assemblage' is a particular configuration of heterogeneous elements that exist in relation with each other with a certain consistency.

In episode 15 one of the tachikoma units (number 1 below) is holding a copy of Anti-Oedipus and says to other units:

1: ...the problem is that we're too close to being human. It's because the line that separates human from robot has already become a few minor differences of the physical body. Stop and think why our 'bodies without organs' are not made to look human. 2: Efficiency as weapons, maybe? 1: That's part of it, but the more important reason is that if we were humanoid our users would overempathize with us in a weird way. I think we'd be hated even more if we were humanoid."

"Body without organs" is another key concept in Anti-Oedipus. In another Deleuze and Guattari text, What is Philosophy?, they use the term "plane of immanence" instead. The 'body without organs' is a particular space that has not yet been potentialised (or what Deleuze and Guattari call 'territorialization') as having a set of 'organs' that would populate the space in a particular configuration. In Anti-Oedipus, Deleuze and Guattari argue against the psychoanalytic territorialization of the desiring machines of bodies. Instead they suggest getting back to the 'body without organs' or, better yet, attempting to construct one anew through deterritorialisation. The point here is that instead of being constituted through the connections enabled by the 'desiring machines' into which we are socialised (Deleuze and Guattari call this 'Oedipalisation'), they attempt to outline how we can reconnect in creative and experimental ways. The elaborate methodological technique for understanding the machinic dimension of a body they call 'schizoanalysis'.

A body as such is a certain form of assemblage, it is determined by connections and flows and stoppages enabled by the desiring machines with which it is connected. The use of an organic oil in one of the tachikoma units has been used as a plot device by the creators of GITS: SAC as a way to indicate a change in the assemblage of which the individual tachikoma units were part (which includes the oil, other section 9 members, socio-technical infrastructure, and the all the tachikomas). The initial state of the tachikomas to be non-human is nothing other than an attempt to maintain an empathetic distinction between human and non-human, and non-human as 'tool'. This is a recurring theme throughout GITS. The tachikomas have a specific 'technological Oedipalisation', that is, a programmatic attempt to constitute the flows of information and oil through connections sanctioned through protocol by the authoritative elements of the assemblage of which they are part, i.e. the humans.

In an interview, Deleuze once said that he and Guattari attempted to create a pop-philosophy, which they thought they had failed. Yet, with this appearance of some of their concepts not only literally in one episode, but concepts which resonate throughout the whole GITS world, it is apparent that their pop-philosophy has had some success.

Glen fuller 12:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think it's supposed to be ambigious too, but don't you wonder why it happens after the Tachikoma has the Natural Oil? Like the proteins and stuff from that helped to evolve or whatever?

camouflage

Hello. I couldn't help but notice that Kusanagi's camouflage technology is called 'thermoptic'. This technology appears word-to-word in the PC game Deus Ex: an item called 'thermoptic camo' makes the player become invisible to the human eye as well as cameras and robots. I was just wondering if anybody's heard the term appear elsewhere (i.e. is it a common phrase in sci-fi/cyberpunk) or could it be listed as GITS's influence on Deus Ex?

  • As far as I know it's just 2 words combined to form a new one to describe the combination. Thermoptic camo seems to be just one of them. The original word originates from Japanese so it might come from whoever translated it. I Don't think it's worth any further mention though, with a succes like GitS ideas and words are bound to pop up in other works. --Jimius 15:29, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • It could get a mention as an evolution of the technology in Neuromancer. The Panter Modern's Mimetic Polycarbon suits are a generation behind, but that's the likely influence.
  • The character named Gunther Hermann has an eye augmentation that closely resembles Batou's: metallic ring with lens where the eye used to be. And there's a street thug whose design is very much like that of the thug at the beginning of the movie (the one Batou chases through the market). (Or maybe I'm just pushing it...)


Well helo there ;)

No you are not pushing it. Deus Ex and GiTS have quite a few things in comon actually. The likes of Hermann and Ana Navare have their bodies augmented (metalic limbs and organs that enhance the capability of the host), such as legs, hands, eyes,.. but their brains are "untuched" in a way they are only humans with "normal" robotic "output" so to speak. Denton (the main cracther in the game) is also aougmented but on a much higher level as compared to Hermann. Denton has nanobots inside of him, functions of those nanobots can be enhanced with upgrade modules that are more or less nothing than a nanoDNA code. There fore he looks just like the major on the outside and can do more or less everything as dose the major exept for ghost hacking, but he can hack into terminals and the net. There is also a AI program in the Deus Ex that has gained selfawernes by "merging" with another AI ( 2 Echelon sistems called Dedalus and Icarus ) that calls him self Helios. Towards end of the game u find out that Denton din't came to world by natural birth but was artificaly incepted and "modified" in the lab. Anyway the main antagonist in the game Bob Page uses the same tehnology that was used to "make" Denton to transform him self into pure information, data or however u wish to call it and thus beeing able to merge himself with the AI. Purpose of merging is diff than that in the GiTS off course. But none the less as you can see there r quite a number of conection points between the Deus EX game and GiTS. Denton like major questions his origins, merging with an AI, hacking to the net, aougmented body of Denton and a cayborg body of major. And affter merging with an AI both give rise two new entity

JC Denton ;)

Manga

The Ghost in the Shell template links to the manga article at Ghost in the Shell (manga), which previously was a red link, but which I've changed to redirect here. Should this page be moved to Ghost in the Shell (manga) instead? There are many pages that link to this article, Ghost in the Shell, but many (perhaps most) are supposed to be links to the article about the movie, Ghost in the Shell (film). Would it be better if Ghost in the Shell were a disambiguation page? Steve McKinney 08:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above, switching the two article titles. I was searching for the film article, and it was rather hard to find, and I got to this article, which I thought initially as an article on GITS in general. However, it's focused more on the manga itself and I thought it would be better if this article presented information common to all the adaptation of GITS such as recurring themes, and it would be better to move manga plotlines into the Ghost in the Shell (manga) article. What do you guys think? Boneheadmx 04:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is indeed shaping up as a "GitS general topics" sort of thing. I agree that it would be good to flesh out a Ghost in the Shell (manga) article and then change the focus of this main article to reflect its general nature. - mako 05:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
In that case, I will add in a little blurb in the beginning of the article that goes something like this: "This article covers general topics in Ghost in the Shell. For the manga, go to Ghost in the Shell (manga). For the films, go to Ghost in the Shell (film) and Innocence: Ghost in the Shell...etc." Or I could direct people to the template which covers the different releases of GITS. In any case, I already made the manga article a stub, so people can start working on it. Boneheadmx 06:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)