Talk:Ghost in the Shell (philosophy)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anime and manga, which aims to improve and expand anime and manga related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Stand Alone Complex 2 Ghost in the Shell and Christian/Neo-Platonic themes 3 Merge 4 My Mass Confusion about the merge 5 LOST SAMPLES 6 Rework 7 The concept of Tamashi ( ~spirit) 8 Cyborg Body Hybridity 9 External Memory 10 Stand Alone Complex 11 text from Stand Alone Complex disambig page 12 Awsome article 13 Why? 14 neuromancer

[edit] Stand Alone Complex

Removed:
"However, there are many that say McIlwain is misusing the term ^{[citation needed]} by the fact that Scientology has long had detractors, and these individuals just met over the internet forums and decided to partly organize (thus starting it), while others joined after reading the topic, increasing interest, and thus causing a new support to organize further. This is much like many other internet organizations such as cosplay and anything else that would have a collective interest. So this incident is not SAC, but an organization or "club" formed by individuals of common interest using the internet medium. An example not using the internet medium is as follows: There is a large gathering (PTA meeting or child's birthday). Two or more people have small talk about how they would rather be playing pool (common interest). Some others join in because of this common interest. The topic becomes more serious because of the increased attention. There is a larger need to do something about this. One or more could suggest that they should all go shoot pool sometime. They organize that one meeting. After that meeting, some individuals decide to make it a regular thing."

The reason to this is that Anonymous is not friends that gather up at some childs birthday, this is an International movement with thousands of participants (tens of thousands?),with no guidance and no leaders yet they all move in the same direction and have the same common goals. This is not the same as Cosplay because when being "part of" Anonymous you don't "join the club". Ccnx (talk) 18:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous is not your "secret 1337 h4xx0r" movement either, nor is he the activists. and there are organizers, believe it or not. unless you provide a source however that states that there ARE no organizers, and that everyone has the exact common goal, i.e.: not that: some do it for the laughs, some do it for the great justice, some do it to meet their friends, then this reasoning is useless. some random blogposts do not constitute viable mentions.

let me open my very own blog and make a post about Anon being the demons. then putting it in this article. "Anonymous" has existed before this very Chanology stuff, and will exist after it. so the people did not gather together just for this simple cause. you fail. 77.187.192.44 (talk) 22:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

From your added text: "and these individuals just met over the internet forums and decided to partly organize "

-Now you say: "Anonymous" has existed before this very Chanology stuff"

The statements that you are adding are not related to the Stand Alone Complex mentality, this is your own opinion, you have an article that the text links to that describes the Stand Alone Complex in relation to Anonymous, I am sure that your point will be noted once you have a well written article on a website that many people visit.

Also, please be objective and stop adding that nonsense for whatever personal reasons that you might have.Ccnx (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

you are very much misunderstanding the meaning of a "stand alone complex". the "Anonymous protests" were nothing but a sign of mob-mentality. as there always was and has been an initiator. namely, the person who posted the first thread about this whole business. a "stand alone complex" is a copycat crime without a previous perpetrator. if people would have gathered together on sites out of their own mindframe and without any previous guidance, just because they "felt like it", in order to attack scientology, it would have been justified to call this whole business a "stand alone complex". but clearly, it is not. one single blog entry does not prove anything. 77.187.175.129 (talk) 15:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, I have to add, and to quote from the article: Stand Alone Complex eventually came to represent a phenomenon where unrelated, yet very similar actions of individuals create a seemingly concerted effort. however, the Project_chanology article clearly mentions the following: Project Chanology was formulated by users of the English speaking imageboards 711chan.org and 4chan, the associated partyvan.info wiki, and several Internet Relay Chat channels (collectively known as Anonymous) on January 16, 2008 after the Church of Scientology issued a copyright violation claim against YouTube for hosting material from the Cruise video. so, a SAC clearly does not apply here. everything was organized. Furthermore, I hereby invoke WP:V and WP:RS on the blogsource. as it is, a blog, and nothing else has been mentioned anywhere about this topic. furthermore, the author is clearly biased in favour of "anonymous", as he was/is participating in said protests. 77.187.129.33 (talk) 17:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There are many groups of people that are not related to Project Chanology, around the world that are acting alone or in groups, copying the same behavior as the original group of people, from /i/ that started this whole thing. This is happening in many countries, it's the same thing at all places, the masks, protests, and actions of individuals, they are not related to Project Chanology but still call themselves Anonymous and act on behalf of Anonymous, even without having any contact or being part of Project Chanology. 83.227.225.22 (talk) 20:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

however, the originating incident then clearly happened, which makes it NOT a SAC. the actions are clearly related and franchised, a copycat of the original protests, if these copycat incidents exist. since they are not related to "project chanology", as in "taking down the CoS", however, then they are not "similar actions". and it doesnt answer the questions of verifiability and this being a reliable source either. putting on a carnival mask and calling myself "anonymous" does not make me be part of a SAC. again, a reliable source is needed. blogposts of sympathizers are not one.77.187.129.33 (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ghost in the Shell and Christian/Neo-Platonic themes

Compare the English translation from the movie towards the end: "When I was a child, my speech, feeling and thinking were those of a child; now that I am a man I have no more use for childish things..." with 1 Corinthians 13:11.

-or-

the scene where Batou and Kusanagi are drinking beer in the boat and she's talking about staring in a mirror with Plato's allegory of the cave.

Christianity/Neo-Platonism are almost frighteningly similar philosophies... what do you guys make of the similarities with the movie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.102.236.73 (talk)

Both of "When I was a child ... childish things" and "For now we see through a glass, darkly" (boat episode) are taken from Corinthians 13. In the bible, it refers to enlightenment brought by the final coming of God. In the movie, there is a parallel made between that (or the allegory of the cave) and the Pupper Master/Major merge. If you think there is something interesting in that, by all means, be bold. BTW, from the Neoplatonism article, Neoplatonism strongly influenced Christian thinkers, no wonder why they looks similar. -- Rcog 19:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

So.... why was "Stand Alone Complex" merged into this page? It was pretty descriptive before, and now its compressed into 2 paragraphs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rokasomee (talk • contribs) .

Probably because most of it was considered original research. -- Ned Scott 04:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Because you did it See Talk:Stand_Alone_Complex At least you should MERGE not BLANK --82.126.186.178 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Had there been anything of value to merge, I would have. If you disagree then you can merge content yourself. Get over this, it's a minor issue. -- Ned Scott 07:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Mass Confusion about the merge

I thought there was no clear consensus and thus no action should have been taken?

I don't really understand the rational behind the merge since it was not decided definitively one way or another about what should be done. MrMacMan 06:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No consensus does not mean no action should be taken. In fact, no consensus on an AfD means that nether delete or keep had primary support. What was clear was that something should be done with the information at hand. The AfD showed a lot of people interested in an article merge, just we weren't sure what exact article it should be merged with. Do you disagree with which article it was merged with? A subject getting it's own article or not is not an indication of importance, but simply article organization. There are many more significant and important topics that share their article file with another topic, simply because it benefits the reader and the flow of information more. That sounds pretty rationale to me. -- Ned Scott 07:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I closed the AfD as no consensus because there was no concensus as to which article to merge to. If a firm target had been identified I would have redirected as part of the closure. In my opinion, the discussion needs to be whether this is the correct article, not whether the merge should take place. Yomangani^talk 10:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with MrMacMan and Yomangani and i think it is better to revert to last good version for both articles since Stand Alone Complex is not really related to the manga.--Neuromancien 01:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what Yomangani said. -- Ned Scott 01:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand that there was no concensus as to which article to merge to and I think it is not the good article to merge with but since Rcog does a great work ...--Neuromancien 01:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm merely trying to improve the content, it could be easily copied/pasted somewhere else. Where do you suggest? -- Rcog 03:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the article is now not focused anymore on the manga only and since merging is the key word it is fine.--Neuromancien 20:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LOST SAMPLES

• The context of Stand Alone Complex
• About the two Gits series
• About Robots
• About Network society and Human Society

Although the parallelization of information could have numerous side effects, I came to conclude that true individuality would only stand out after parallelizing all of the information.At that point, I could no longer see hope in the latter half of the 20th century, so I turned to the forgotten art of Sci-Fi to express my hopes for the future.And I began to see that Stand Alone Complex represented humanity and human society.Interview with Kenji Kamiyama --Neuromancien 01:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is verbatim quoting from http://www.productionig.com/contents/works_sp/02_/s08_/index.html, no need to copy it here. Might even be copyright violation. -- Rcog 02:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

it was a selection but since it looks bad to you i leave just a very short quote --Neuromancien 01:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not pretend to be absolutely right. But to take the example of "The context of Stand Alone Complex", I thought I had it summarized by saying While originally intended to underscore the dilemmas and concerns that people would face if they relied too heavily on the new communications infrastructure ... and referencing the interview. Do you think there is really something to gain by putting the whole quote? -- Rcog 04:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

No it was just some materials and samples for reference there.Someone else started the Stand alone complex article with POV.I trust you and of course you can summarize these quotes.--Neuromancien 20:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Motoko's approving quotation of Marxist Wilhelm Steckel in her discussion with the Laughing Man in episode 22
• Motoko and the Laughing Man approvingly quoting Soviet film-maker Dziga Vertov in episode 26.

from http://www.tony5m17h.net/GITStrans.html ? --Neuromancien 02:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rework

I don't want to start another edit war, so I will explain (in case some people have difficulties reading my change summaries) what I'm doing. Things were not lost in the merging; I'm only trying to improve the overall quality of the article.

• Fansub quoting: I don't think that has its place here. It is in no way official stuff and what is quoted right now can easily be summarized (without any loss of information) in a couple of lines.
• I did my best to remove unground speculation: "the interpretation of this key phrase", "Sadly, unlike Fredric Jameson,", "Stand Alone Complex is in a way originated from social theory", etc.
• ... and things that are plainly irrelevant: "As such, many English-speaking fans who watched the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex may not be familiar with the concepts presented." Who cares, really?

Also note that, with the sections like the one on tachikomas, the article's scope is now on the GitS universe as a whole and I edit it in that sense. I will slow down for the time being, so if you have arguments against what I am doing, please express yourself.

-- Rcog 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice job. I appreciate the fact that this article is becoming less and less in-universe and OR, and that we're starting to get a consensus about how much to include. --RoninBK_ETC 07:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Just Do it --Neuromancien 01:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Please follow through with this. I'm going to attempt some collaborative reworking with you of at the very least the Stand Alone Complex section of this article, which is written like a speculative high school essay and drips with elitist anime-aficionado tone--i.e. the use and explicit mention of fansub quotations, the excessive and clumsy use of quotations in general (which I'm tempted to conclude immediately are the work of someone who aims not only to apply some sort of intellectual seal of legitimacy to the series by quoting it in literary fashion on wikipedia, but also to the work of the fansubber), which not only wander but make themselves redundant by being immediately followed by summaries and intepretations (wikipedia is not a place for speculative literary interpretation, not about quotes, and not about what the wikipedian alone thinks the title of the work refers to--if the teamwork of Section 9 has been interpreted in some published work to be an example of the Stand Alone Complex, please cite where), the use of phrases taken from fan translations rather than official translations ("Particularist Eleven" vs. "Individual Eleven"--one is the translation that the official Anglophone version of the work used, so please use it, for the sake of clarity and consistency) and especially the line "Sadly, unlike Fredric Jameson, most work from Japanese sociologist Masachi Osawa is not published in the West. As such, many English-speaking fans who watched the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex may not be familiar with the concepts presented," as well as the use of phrases like, "one cannot deny that..." which were actually physically painful for me to see on a wikipedia page. It is speculative, it makes a very open judgement call on the negativity/positivity of something, and it does not make any effort to clarify the so-called Western deprivation of Osawa's work by giving any summary of what that work argued or theorized. I'm sorry this is such a bitter tirade, but I just happened to wander to this page out of curiosity over what wikipedia would have to say about this my most beloved fictional universe, and I've been very disappointed. It's as intellectually and socio-philosophically rich a work as many novels and movies with masterfully-wrought pages (see nineteen eighty-four), so let's please treat it accordingly. Also, specifically to whoever wrote the sections I'm criticizing--I apologize for my tone and hope you won't see this as a personal affront. --Techgeist 16:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree I must apologize since i copy/paste parts of it even if i'm not the original "writer" but the article is now merging so you are welcome to start some collaborative reworking ;)--Neuromancien 20:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The concept of Tamashi ( ~spirit)

I think we must include a reference to the japanes concept of tamashi in the article.I'm really busy now and my english is so bad...so you see ^^

Excerpt from The Japan Times: March 17, 2004 (lost) interview ( Mamoru Oshii about Innocence )

The film uses the term "ghost" to describe the spirit that inhabits not just the dolls, but Batou and the other characters. How does that relate to the Japanese concept of tamashi [spirit] and the Western concept of soul? That's a difficult question. A soul is not something someone can just show you. But if you believe in it enough, want to see it enough, it will appear. In the West, people don't believe animals have souls, do they? That's not true in Japan, though. I myself believe that dogs and cats have souls -- but that has nothing to do with a specific religion. Children have similar feelings about dolls -- if they love a doll enough, they feel that it's alive. That feeling is universal. It's not something they're taught -- they just feel it somehow. It's not connected with any religious belief.

See also : Michael Witzel, Vala and Iwato The Myth of the Hidden Sun in India, Japan, and beyond tama has the double meaning of 'jewel' and 'soul' also some explanations about Kusanagi sword and mythology.

Search for tamashi with your favorite search engine.We discuss this concept years ago here in the Shell:Discussions about the many incarnations of Ghost in the Shell, philosophy and more! forums now gone after crash.You will found some deep thoughts there and some ideas and quotes ;-) --Neuromancien 20:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyborg Body Hybridity

Some references : Cyborg : Anthropological Approach of Bio-mechanical Body Hybridity ( Cyborg : approche anthropologique de l’hybridité corporelle bio-mécanique ) Abstract : When one is interested in the topic of hybridity (body hybridity), the image of cyborg can’t be ignored. This figure of science-fiction invites us to investigate the intricate relations between body and machine. Through this bio-mechanical junction, he appears both as the symbol of a redefinition of human life and as an emotional crytallization of fascination and repulsion. Based on a corpus of japanese animations, this paper tries to sketch different patterns of hybridity and different aspects of these fictitious experiments. Imaginary creature, monstruous being, ultra- powerful product sprung from a social and scientist disturbance, shapeless thing running over a close and unified identity, the images of cyborg also reveal his deep metaphorical lability. More than a simple shape emerging from fabulous constructions, he also tells us about the meaning ascribed by our modern societies to the technicized body. Keywords : Guïoux, Lasserre, Goffette, body, cyborg, hybrid, machine, Japan, animation See also Brian Ruh book and old (2002) articles like Hacking Your Own Ghost: Mythology in the Science Fiction Films of Oshii Mamoru

Some copies of others articles are still online elsewhere even if the original is lost in the cyberspace...--Neuromancien 20:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Memory

I believe that the External Memory section should be broken into two separate sections or more firmly defined within the same section. One on "Self Identity" and using external objects to identify one's self, and "External Memory" being stored memories and information. Here are my reasons.

Self Identity: In "Stand Alone Complex" Episode 25, Batou says to Kusunagi about her watch "No matter how many prosthetic bodies you went through, this was the one thing that was always ticking away the same time as you, right? In this time that's far too fleeting, people entrust memories to external devices because they want to set down proof that can identify them as a unique individual. For you, isn't that watch the one external mnemonic device that can identify the person you've been up until now?"

This says that external mnemonic devices are to create a sense of unchanging self in a world where you can switch physical bodies on the fly. As biological humans our forms are fixed and unchanging for the most part and our self identity is tied deeply with that. In the GiTS universe, that is not true and you must tie your self-identity to external objects such as a watch or weight training to distinguish yourself from the rest of the identical mass produced cyborg bodies and create a sense of individuality. There are references in SAC 2ng Gig Episode 8 about cyborg food satisfying the brains cravings and as a reminder of times before becoming a cyborg. In SAC 2nd Gig Episode 11 there is a store that keeps and maintains external mnemonic devices that remind their owners of their own personal memories. All of these "external mnemonic devices" are used to trigger memories in one's self, but can not relay detailed information to a stranger.

External Memory: External Memory is exactly that, memories and experiences that are stored "offline" onto a hard disk or such. If you posses a cyber brain, there is a definite separation of mind and body since your brain case can be removed and put into a new body. Since there is an electronic separation, the signals received from the senses (touch, taste, etc.) can be recorded and replayed at any given time. Thus, you could record important events such as your wedding day and replay it as if you were actually there anytime you wish. Your external senses turn off, and you’re fed recorded sensory information. Better than any video camera recording, your feeling the heat of the sun, the breeze, your brides’ hand trembling as you slip the ring on her finger, etc. Storing these memories also allows others to play them back and experience them as well. This would be a highly valuable technology for all areas of use; fully immersive gaming and movies, virtual business meetings that feel completely real, instantaneous access to wikipedia anywhere. In SAC 2ng Gig Ep 23, Batou talks about using Kusunagi's external memories to keep Gohda talking in Ep 22. He also talks about peeking at her external memories regarding Kuze. In SAC Ep 10 Ishikawa experiences Batou's memories from the murder scene. SAC Ep 21 the whole team replays Togusa's memories from the Sunflower Society office when he was shot. --Mugen kanosei 07:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

-This section has been renamed to "Mnemonic Devices". It is a good explanation of this concept; it just has nothing to do with "external memory" as it was previously named. 22 Feb 2007

[edit] Stand Alone Complex

Are there any real-life examples of a stand alone complex? Is it a real phenomena? I'd like to see this section evolve into its own article with only a sub-section relating it to GITS, but I suppose that could be a stand alone complex in itself. An article about a fictional concept in which people immitate a fictional person... Zerodivision 15:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a real phenomenon, known under other names. See the links in that section. -- Rcog 02:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] text from Stand Alone Complex disambig page

Moved the text from disambig page into the this article in it's proper spot. Disambig pages aren't supposed to be that complex and the Stand Alone Complex doesn't have any scholarly uses. When some scholars are encyclopedias start to use the phrase Stand Alone Complex specific wording then it could have it's own article. Alatari (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Added refimprove link to philosophy section. It reads like someone who loves the show's explanation and could be original work. It needs references to transcripts from the show, articles from the directors/writers explaining their views, article from philosopher talking about what a Stand Alone Complex is, science journal, etc. It can't be our words saying that Stand Alone Complex is like Memes. Alatari (talk) 10:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Awsome article

I just have to say, well done folks! I'm quite satisfied with this article on the Stand Alone Complex as a reader and as a fan of the show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Six string brad (talk • contribs) 06:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why is there an entire article about bullshit philosophy in some cartoon? Do we need articles on the Aesthetics of Bambi or the Architecture of Samurai Pizza Cats too?--Hurrrrrrr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.68.70.122 (talk) 07:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

if you do not like it dont read it stupid prick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.176.127 (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] neuromancer

i think some links should be put somewhere about neuromance seeing how they have very similar views and ideas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.176.127 (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)