Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 2

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County vs. district

As a result to a conversation I had with Carabinieri and the suggestion of User:Agathoclea was to move the discussion here. Carabinieri and I concur. I'd like therefore to bring up the issue of what is the best use of the word district and the best translation for the word Landkreis. (I've brought it up before but that was perhaps a page no longer monitored):

1. I've noticed that the generic word district is used for all the various regional concoctions they have come up with in Germany (and they've come up with even more since I've been there, it seems). It is even used when there is a good word for a particular type of district. "District" is therefore heavily overused.

2. County is a perfect match for Landkreis (at least in American English).

3. I think "district" should be used for all the other types of regional combinations such as electoral districts or administrative districts where Germans would use the word "Bezirk".

4. "Urban districts" as it is currently used on the pages made for districts are really "independent cities".

Carabinieri checked on the homepage of the German foreign ministry and they use county to describe Landkreise (see: [1]). He thinks this would be good reason to use that term. We'd like to get consensus on it by our community of de:en users. --Mmounties (Talk) 21:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it would also be important to list the terms, which we'll need to discuss in order to avoid confusions later:

  1. Landkreise or Kreise (the latter is used in Northrhine-Westphalia, Schleswig-Holstein and parts of Hesse, the former in the rest of Germany). These are currently translated as districts or rural districts.
  2. Kreisfreie Städte another form of Landkreis. Currently translated as Urban districts.
  3. Regirungsbezirk. These exist in Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria, Hesse, North Rhine-Westphalia, and Hesse. These are larger than Landkreise and are currently also translated as districts, therefore causing confusion.--Carabinieri 21:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The latter tends to come as "administrative district" in a number of articles. As far as a proposal goes I am for a clearcut definition of what word to be used where - there are more words in legal terms we will come across, maybe we could compile a list on the project somewhere.Agathoclea 22:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather large-scale project. You'll need to not only rename all the district articles, but also change all uses of the terms in all articles that link to them or mention them. If this should be done, it will need some infrastructure (for example, the dormant Wikipedia:WikiProject German districts could be used for the status updates). As to whether "county" or "district" is the official translation, I just did a quick Google-assisted survey of German Landkreis websites, and the result was inconclusive. Most didn't have English pages, of the two I found that did one used "district", the other "county". I am not convinced yet that "county" is better, especially since "urban district" and "rural district" work rather well for Stadtkreis and Landkreis.
And even if "county" is better, I am not sure it is worth the effort. When this project is started, it will have to be finished quickly, in a concerted effort, because in an unfinished state it will just produce confusion in thousands of articles. This kind of things has to be well-planned and should only be done with sufficient numbers of participants. Kusma (討論) 01:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The conversion would be a possible issue but I think it could be done on a state by state basis and so could be done without being confusing. But we can worry about that when we have agreed on a best translation. --Mmounties (Talk) 02:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I would be helping in a change. Anyway the templates should be first, then it would be in everybodies face while we are doing the transfer. Agathoclea 08:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that if there are enough willing people to actually go through with this and change it, then it should be done. If this thing sputters out halfway through, I agree with the user above that this will cause confusion (perhaps...if people ever really look for this type of thing...something I really wouldn't be doing). JHMM13 (T | C) 18:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
County already has a specific meaning as "the territory ruled by a count", eg, Grafschaft Mark - County of the Mark. The terms "urban district" and "rural district" are taken from English usage, and have a formal admin meaning close to the sense of "Kreisfreie Stadt" bzw "Landkreis". "Administrative district" for "Regierungsbezirk" seems to sit well with that. So these terms seem to me to provide accurate translations. As in addition they have already been heavily used, I think it better to stay with them, or at least with some variant on "disrtict": the change proposed seem to mean a great deal of work for less clarity. Staffelde 18:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The article County refers to that usage as the original usage which is no longer all emcompassing. I found County#Independent_Cities_in_the_U.S. fascinating reading as this mirrors the situation of Kreisfreie Staedte . Agathoclea 19:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem at all with the expression "independent city" as a translation of "Kreisfreie Städte" - in fact, it's very good. As for "County", however, the article County, specifically in respect of Germany, has nothing to offer except an unsupported redlink equation of the word "County" with the word "Kreis". "County" is the translation not of "Kreis" but of "Grafschaft", which is a term which is necessary in its own right in articles dealing with the history of Germany, because it is necessary there to discuss the concept of the "territories of counts" as a thing separate from modern administrative districts. Staffelde 21:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The difficulty is that County has a different meaning in the UK than in the US. Counties in the US are no more and no less than what Kreise are in Germany. They were never ruled by any County and are a perfect fit meaningwise. Additionally, the Germany government has determined that County is the appropriate translation (see previous post) so I think we should go with that. --Mmounties (Talk) 23:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
And I don't think so! we are running out of space, so I have re-started the discussion at the bottom the page.Staffelde 19:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I am inherently lazy ... therefor I should opt for district on this argument. But - provided there is a concerted effort to implement it - I would prefer county. Looking at the internat structures of the British counties I can see them now as somewhat bigger but similar to the German Kreise. The only time I came accros a district here was with Dyfed which when it existed was subdivided in districts. Agathoclea 17:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Kreise: "Districts" or "Counties"?

(I am making a new entry of this to make it more easily visible).

I am becoming concerned that this is starting to look like an attempt to push through an absolutely enormous change on the basis of inadequate understanding, without engaging in thorough discussion of the issues. We really have to thrash it out properly now if we are not to engender endless edit wars further down the line.

Your remarks above don't really address the points being made: no-one has said anything about "county" in the UK local government sense, only about its meaning lexicographically, which of course is the reason for the UK usage. Before going any further it will be useful to summarise the points so far:

The reasons for the proposed changes are as follows: You object to using "(rural) district" for Landkreis and "urban district" for "Kreisfreie Stadt" because:

  1. you think the word "district" is being over-used and is inaccurate;
  2. you think the word "county", in the particular sense in which it is used in the US, is a better equivalent of "Landkreis", and "independent city", again as per US usage, for "Kreisfreie Stadt";
  3. you have found a webpage, originating from the German Foreign Office, summarising German local government arrangements in English, which uses "counties" to translate "Kreise"; and
  4. the Wikipedia article on County has a single late redlink entry that equates "county" and "Kreis".

Therefore:

  1. you propose to change all present uses of "district" to "county" and all present uses of "region" (as in "Regierungsbezirk")to "district".

The response to the suggestion is so far as follows:

  1. "District" is already a meaningful and precise translation of "Kreis". Rural districts and Urban districts are exact equivalents of the German entities, based however on European (UK) rather than US practice. (Please also refer in this connection to WP:MOS which makes it clear that en:Wikipedia does not accept arbitrary changes from UK to US English for reasons of local patriotism). Therefore no change is needed.
  2. However, even it were, "County" is in any case not available as a neutral term for the unambiguous equivalent of "Landkreis". It is already used, and continues to be necessary, as the English-language equivalent of the older German unit of the "Grafschaft", and to use it also for "Landkreis" will create more confusion than is caused by the established use of "district". NB also please that the use of "county" in the UK is not directly relevant and has not been so presented; I am pointing out - now for the third time - that it has an existing meaning as an English-language term relating to Germany. You cannot simply disregard those parts of the language you don't care for, and this is starting to look like a deliberate strawman argument.
  3. Virtually all articles on en:Wikipedia that deal with German local government use "district" for "Kreis". You can easily check this by starting with the articles Districts, Districts of Germany, Kreis, and working down through the various tiers of articles that link to them. You have not said why you think it correct to disregard their usage entirely, while giving prominence to the single redlink entry in the article County.
  4. As for the website, a single swallow doth not a summer make. The single page you cite is an informal outline of the German local government system for the benefit of English speakers, translated by German translators, and is no evidence at all of policy. To claim that this one page means that "the Germany government has determined that County is the appropriate translation", and that therefore it's OK to overturn established practice here, really doesn't hold water. What is necessary, if you wish to demonstrate this point, is references to UK government EU-related documentation concerning what they, as the authoritative users of English in Europe, regard as the correct English-language translation of "Kreis" in policy and legislative matters. I would not consult UK sources to see how the Germans translate, for example, "county"; I would consult German sources; and the converse applies here.
  5. On the practical side, there are thousands of articles which already use "district" and it is a great waste of time to change them all for such a debatable reason.
  6. Also on the practical side, the concern has been expressed - and not by me - that the change, whether justified or not, would be such an enormous undertaking that it is likely to peter out half way through, resulting in even greater confusion.
  7. The scope for confusion is made many times worse by the fact that after scrapping "district" in the sense of "Kreis" you then propose to reuse it for Regierungsbezirk etc. You have not said why you object to "region", which is completely clear and unambiguous.

Suggestions: I have made it clear that I don't accept the need for the changes as proposed and given the reasons. However:

  1. If someone is prepared to undertake to do it systematically, I can see no particular reason to object to the use of the US expression "independent city" instead of "urban district". Admittedly it means exactly the same, but is closer to the German expression and is more easily understood at sight.
  2. The use of "district" as in "administrative district" for "Regierungsbezirk" is probably not helpful, and there may well be a good case for replacing "administrative district" by "administrative region" throughout.

As good Wikipedia practice, however, ANY changes of this magnitude MUST first be raised, at the least, on the Talk Pages of the relevant articles to give the greater en:Wikipedia community, German-speaking and otherwise, a chance to see and comment. All respect to the sterling efforts of Kusma and Olessi on this project, which will certainly bear fruit in due course, but this is still a very new portal, and very few of en:Wikipedia's German-language users are using it yet. In fact, these are such big changes that if you insist on proceeding with it, the whole thing really needs to go to RFC. Staffelde 19:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

You have raised some good points there. However I am not too happy about starting a new subsection, primarily as the original subsection was linked from the RFC page and some other talkpages.
I agree that changes of this magnitude need discussing and you have given a number of points which will need following up as regards the official usage of the term in EU terminology.
I seem to have missed that there was a proposed change from region to district. I was never aware of the term region being used, and without any further checking find it more appropiate.
As a whole we all seem to have the same goal. Making wikipedia a better resource for all and I am sure we can do that together. I have certainly refrained from making any changes, until we have sorted this issue, and am reasonable sure others will see it similarly. Agathoclea 21:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about the new section - I hadn't realised there were links to it. Leaving aside the apparently difficult question of when is a county not a Kreis, we do actually seem to making good progress on some of the other terms, which wd be worth pulling together in a different place. Staffelde 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
To further add to your confusion: even in German, the terminology isn't consistent. You already noted that some länder use Kreis, whereas most use Landkreis. Most German Länder also use the term Kreisfreie Stadt (district-free city) for a city/town that is not part of a Landkreis (or Kreis). But Baden-Württemberg and Bremen use Stadtkreis (urban district). Good luck in finding suitable translations. --Rosenzweig 21:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
That would in fact work extremely well: "urban district" for "Stadtkreis" and "independent city" for "kreisfreie Stadt" are almost tailor-made.Staffelde 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Even "county" is not used consistently in the US, it is called "parish" in Louisiana and "borough" in Alaska :-) Kusma (討論) 21:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I just did a Google of the eu.int domain. I searched for district+Germany or county+Germany, and "district" was the winner. Most of the hits for "county" actually were from counties in other countries that did something with Germany, while most of the "districts" were indeed German Kreise. (That Google search alone doesn't prove anything, of course). I think we should use EU or UK terminology for German matters whenever there is doubt. Kusma (討論) 21:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
That seems to me to make good sense. Are you applying that to the district / county question, or are you leaving that to run a little longer?Staffelde 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I am applying that to the district/county question. I think we should try to go with the terminology used in official EU documents. That appears on a first glance to be "district", but more research would be needed to confirm this. However, I see no harm in letting this discussion run its course, to figure out if better terms exist. It is definitely useful to think about unified translations for things like Landrat and SPD-Kreisvorstand etc. Kusma (討論) 22:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I emailed the foreign office today - let us see what they have to say :-) Agathoclea 22:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish you luck, we are having a long discussion on similar subject at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geography_of_Poland - you may want to see it for some related arguments. If you reach an agreement in half a year, I'll give you a WikiCookie :p --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting discussion, although the slant is slightly different - and the differences are in themselves interesting. I notice for examnple that here no-one - yet - has suggested the untranslated use of "Kreis" as the native term. Staffelde 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Too many possible English terms to warrant a native term. Regierungsbezirk is a different matter - I have seen that used at least on wikipedia. Agathoclea 22:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, while several US states may use different words to describe a county, fact is that a county is a county and means the same thing in all those states that use it. There also is currently no rule/policy on which English word to use for “Kreis”. There is therefore no requirement to use any specific word right now (as we all know) and I can, if I want to, use county in every article I translate and Wiki policy would say others can't change it just because it isn't used that way in the UK. I don't want to have revert wars either but I do believe in using the best word. Fact of the matter is that there are now two meanings to the word "county" and this isn't and won't be the last time language has evolved. I (and apparently quite a few others as Piotrus relayed) agree with me and think it deserves to be discussed and decided so that a consensus can be reached. Not to have the discussion is not the right way to go. So if this is not the correct forum for that discussion and come to a decision then please let's take it there.--Mmounties (Talk) 00:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Because this is an important subject (within the narrow confines of Wikipedia, at any rate), I took the trouble to construct a clear, full and logical account of exactly why I think the original suggestion was a bad one. If you wish the discussion to move on, the ball is now in your court. What you have to do now is (a) to read and understand my points, and those of others supporting them, which it seems from what you say above you have not yet fully done; and (b) to answer them with equally valid points of your own - clearly. By the way from what Agathoclea says above it seems that this page is already linked to RFC. Staffelde 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Using American usage when there is a British usage would be odd. But that is what we are trying to establish if that exists. Anyway I have updated the entry on the RFC page to point to this section as well. Agathoclea 22:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Not wishing to flog a dead horse, but I don't think we ARE trying to establish quite that: we already know that in British English "Kreis" equals "district" and in US English, "county", whence the discussion. What we are specifically also trying to establish, not as a sole deciding factor but as a corroboration, is whether the EU has an official translation of "Kreis" for use in EU English-language documentation relating to German local government, or whether the EU translators, like everybody else who translates out of German sensibly, use both district AND county, according to whether they are writing for a UK or US readership. Sorry to labour the point if that was in fact what you were trying to say. Staffelde 13:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Well kind of - Having lived in the UK for 12 years I never came across something equivalent to "Kreis" as the political structure is far too different. But you are right trying to find someting that fits and is documented is the issue as far as I am concerned. Agathoclea 16:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Before I respond to User:Staffelde's responses, I will first correct his/her "facts":

Facts: 1. I do think the word "district" is overused. I further state that while "district" is accurate to a degree, it being a generic term only provides a general meaning of Landkreis where a better translation (i.e., better match) is available.

"district" is not a generic term; it is an established UK unit of government, and the equivalent of the "Kreis"

2. There is no exact match among the regional governmental entities found in the UK for the German Landkreis

Yes, there is - "rural district" - an exact translation and very close administrative equivalent.

(which is probably why the word "district" was used in the first place, i.e., for lack of a better word). However, fact is that the US local governmental entity "county" is an almost perfect match to the German entity Landkreis.

so you keep saying - but you never say why. This is why I call your efforts POV - the bare assertion of unsubstantiated opinion as if it were fact.

The word "county" has therefore evolved and in this second meaning of the word is a direct match to the German Landkreis. As such it should be the preferred choice over the generic term "district".

This is nonsense. The word "county" has acquired many secondary meanings, inc the US one, and still also retains its original meaning. This makes it an ambiguous term outside the US, which is best avoided.

3. I'm not sure whether there is a direct match for Stadtkreis in the UK (judging by the current translation my guess is there isn't) and I'm almost positive there is no good match in the US. On the face of it, Stadtkreise are cities not subject to government by any Landkreis. This makes them cities independent of any county or "independent cities".

That must be because you didn't read what I wrote previously, where I pointed that the exact equivalent in both function and meaning to "Stadtkreis" is "urban district".

4. County has evolved to mean both Grafschaft and Landkreis. You may not like it but I'm pretty sure UK citizens know what kind of entity is meant when they hear talk about Westchester County in the US State of New York. The issue is therefore not UK vs. US usage but rather one of the entity type existing in the US but not in the UK.

Don't be so patronising. The question is whether anyone is likely to know what is meant by (e.g.) "Calw County", which is what is being discussed.

5. Though I would love to be able to take credit for it, fact is not I but someone else looked up how the German government translates Landkreis. S/he then reported back to this discussion that the German government uses the word "county" to denote Landkreis on its official website.

Yes, User:Carabinieri. You presented it in your argument, however.

6. Whether the Wiki article on county has one or more links to Kreis is irrelevant for a determination of what word best describes the German entity Landkreis, as we all know all articles are constantly being revised and improved upon.

This was a point made by User:Agathoclea - complain to her if you don't think it useful.

7. Words used in translations of governmental constructs by the government of the country in question, in our case Germany, have so far been considered authority and a determining factor when arriving at any conclusion of what constitutes the best and appropriate translation. This was surely one of the reasons why User:Carabinieri checked up on it.

User:Kusma has deal with this point, so I don't need to.

I therefore propose: 1. The word "district" where it denotes the German local governmental entity Landkreis should be translated throughout Wikipedia with the word "county", i.e., it's best match.

unsubstantiated, as above

2. Since there is no best match in either the UK or the US for Stadtkreis that word should be translated in the terms that best describe it. Therefore, as in fact Stadtkreise are cities independent of a county superstructure they would best be translated as "independent cities".

More nonsense: "Urban district" is the exact translation and equivalent - I have pointed this out and you have simply ignored it.

3. Other regional governmental entities that cannot be matched well in either the UK or the US are usually referred to in German as some sort of Bezirk, i.e., the German generic equivalent of the English generic "district". Germans then further describe them by adding terms like Wahl or Regierungs to the front of Bezirk. Translation into English should follow that pattern. They should therefore best continue to be translated as "districts" accompanied by an adjective such as "administrative" or "electoral" so to clarify meaning and better describe them.

"district" is actually not a generic term - see above. "Region" is not a generic term either, but it's less defined than "district". My comments were directed specifically to "Regierungsbezirk".

Now to address your comments: 1. As stated above, "district" is a generic term and as such should only be used when no good match can be found.

see above - not so

"County" in its second meaning provides an almost perfect match to the GermanLandkreis. It therefore constitutes a better match than the generic term "district". Change is therefore needed.

says who? "rural district" is a closer translation than county ("Land" = "rural"; "kreis" = "district") and administratively fills the same niche

This has nothing to do with UK vs. US usage but rather with the fact that "county" is a word with two distinct meanings and one of them is found in real life in the US. At the same time "county" remains the best translation for "Grafschaft" all over the world including the US even though that particular governmental animal is found in the UK and not at all in the US.

Thanks for giving your approval to the dictionary definition of "county". You seem to be implying - but perhaps it's just bad writing - that if something occurs in the US it's "real life", but if it's in the UK, it isn't...

2. It is correct that "county" will be used to refer to both the German words "Grafschaft" and "Landkreis". The reason for this is that county actually has two meanings. Dual meanings however are not nor should they ever be reason not to use a word in one of them. Clarity is provided by the context in which they are used and leaves very little room for confusion. As also previously stated, language evolves continuously. In the case at hand, the word "county" has over the last two and a half centuries acquired an additional meaning. To ignore the additional meaning in translations is to ignore reality and would do poor justice to the English language.

"county" has in fact at least three meanings and it is therefore ambiguous to use it to translate a German admin unit that already has a perfectly good translation. It is not me who is ignoring reality. I must ask you again not to be so patronising.

3. That Wiki currently uses the generic "district" more than "county" to describe Landkreis does not render it a better choice in translation. It only shows that there is a lot of room for improvement. This argument is therefore irrelevant.

Wikipedia's practice where there is a clash between UK and US English is to prefer (1) the language of the area or subject under discussion, where appropriate; and (2) the language of the first user. (1) Germany is part of the EU, which uses UK English as one of its official languages, so the language of preference is British English (both Kusma and Agathoclea seem to find this a reasonable point); and (2) until now, the standard translation for "Kreis" has been "district", the UK word; there is NO REASON to change it to "county", the US word, because "county" adds nothing (except confusion).

4. You're speculating on the "official" nature of the German government's website cited. I know a thing or two about official websites as well as all the pages located in their domains or even linked to them. They undergo Extensive QA (with a captial E) and you can bet everything dear to you (and then some) that each and every word, whether in English or German or any other language, used on any page in that domain, or for that matter on any page even remotely associated with the German government, has been carefully screened and evaluated. Use in that domain of the word "county" to denote "Landkreis" must therefore very much be considered good authority and given great weight. The fact that the particular page cited is meant to be read by those conversing in the English language (why else would they bother to translate at all?) only means that it is geared toward the same audience the English Wikipedia addressses. If anything, this increases its weight.

Already dealt with and discounted by Kusma.

5. The fact that a change in nomenclature would require work (even it it be a lot of it) has never been a valid argument in Wikipedia. If it were, this encyclopedia would not exist. Furthermore, you yourself discredit this objection as your second proposal would require roughly the same amount of work.

It's a totally valid argument if the change is unnecessary or marginal, as this one is. As for the other point, "Kreis" occurs far more often than "Regierungsbezirk", the translations of which are split between "region" and "district" already. Please don't make false assertions.

6. Again you yourself have rejected the risk of confusion if a conversion "peters out" as a valid argument as you would undertake a similar size project to the one I propose to change "district" when used in describing Regierungsbezirke to "region".

see above

7. You have not provided any authority on why "region" would be a better word. But fact is, the English word "region" has an almost perfect equivalent in the German word "Region". The German word "Bezirk" on the other hand is a generic word for a regional entity and should best be translated with the equivalent English generic term, i.e., "district". Changing Wiki translations to the lesser match would not improve but rather damage the quality of our encyclopedia. For that reason I oppose your second suggestion.

So if you make an unsubstantiated suggestion for change, then it's OK, but if anybody else does, it's damaging? Logical... I suggested "region" to make a differentiation from district. Please see also the relevant existing articles, where "region" is largely already in use - I am arguing for consistency.

8. Per your suggestion you agree that "independent city" better describes the concept of Stadtkreis.

Do you never read what is in front of you? I said nothing of the sort: "Stadtkreis" = "urban district"; "kreisfreie Stadt" = "independent city".

As you see I fully comprehend your arguments and have addressed them.

No and no! You have done no such thing; you have either misunderstood or ignored them, and simply recycled your own assertions.

In doing so I have abstained from personal attacks and have tried to present my arguments in an objective manner.

Your understanding of the meaning of "objective" is to say the least interesting

Now, if you could be so kind as to refrain from using demeaning and derogatory language going forward when addressing those who don't agree with you it would be greatly appreciated.

But then, a little further down the page you call me a liar and a bully...

It would also help if you refrained from using curse words, not just in articles or discussions themselves but also in your change annotations as they can surely not be considered appropriate language in this forum. Mmounties (Talk) 03:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry if you find the word "bloody" (I do beg your pardon - "bl**dy") offensive - it counts for no more now than "damned" or "blasted". The correct English by the way is "swear-word".Staffelde 01:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
To address the question of "official translation of the German government": The German government can't legislate word usage in English, that simply doesn't work. (The "official English name" of Kiev according to the Ukrainian government is Kyiv, which is not yet really widely used, and so the city is called Kiev on Wikipedia). I also do not think that "county" is the official translation of the German government, since German official sites are very inconsistent in what terms they use. I just googled around a little more in some domains of German government agencies that are a little more connected to the county/district level than the Foreign Office. On nrw.de and bayern.de, "district" won by more than two-thirds, Hesse and Rhineland-Palatinate were inconclusive. The Federal Agency for Cartography and Geodesy used "district" and "urban district", see here for their list of translations. Kusma (討論) 03:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe I said the German government can legislate usage. What I did say was that translations by governments in the country should be given great weight. Now, your find that states among themselves and the federal government in Germany don't agree on a translation is interesting news. Seems like we aren't the only ones who cannot decide on a best translation. Perhaps we should then just agree to disagree and continue to use both. If the Germans can, we sure do too. --Mmounties (Talk) 04:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should try to find a solution, since it would be very confusing to have both translations in Wikipedia.--Carabinieri 09:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. And I've listed all the reasons why "county" is a better word for the job than "district". That the German government can't seem to agree on a word overall only neutralizes one of them. All I was trying to say with my previous comment is that it wouldn't surprise me if we can't agree. (I hope that clarifies my previous statement) --Mmounties (Talk) 12:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, now we have pro and anti "county" at equal length. Oh good. I have read your comments, and stand by what I have already said, as I don't see anything in what you say to justify going round the circle again. I also think you simply don't grasp some of the points, as you are still banging on about things that have been explained three or four times. The only thing I will add is that IMO there are different reasons for not doing something here: one is that it is incorrect to do it; another is that it is impractical, which is a slightly different point. It's clear from others' comments that people understand the issues without needing to be lectured or bullied on them. So I am happy to let consensus take its course. For the rest, I don't see that I have anywhere engaged in personal attack - sorry if you feel that disagreeing with you is attacking you, but in that case, you won't be happy at Wikipedia. I must ask you however to stop creating new templates using "county" until a consensus is reached, as at e.g. "Template:Cities and towns in Breisgau-Hochschwarzwald County" that being the way to do things.
I agree totally with Carabinieri, that we need a durable solution - we simply cannot have two factions on this. What are you thinking, that we partition the country between a "district" zone and a "county" zone? Staffelde 13:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this. In my opinion, deciding on a single term to use and to use that consistently is more important than which term is used. If we can't agree on a single term by discussing, we should probably just vote and then implement the outcome, whatever that is, but implement it in all articles. Kusma (討論) 21:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
If a vote is taken after appropriate discussion I really have no objections and I am more than willing to comply with a decision so reached. However, having said that, any vote would be premature until my arguments have been properly addressed. A blanket statement to the effect that User:Staffelde doesn't agree with me can certainly not be considered valid reasoning or proper discussion. As to who the bully is around here (another bullet aimed at me personally), I'll just as well let the rest of you all do your own thinking on this one. I just ask you to keep in mind when coming to your conclusions that there is no policy in the matter (giving User:Staffelde therefore no basis for his/her demand regarding my work) and I have provided valid arguments for my position and counterarguments to the objections that have been presented while User:Staffelde has so far attempted to rephrase the facts so to be able to have any argument at all and subsequently only provided a blanket statement that my counterarguments are not agreeable to his/her position. As to his/her suggestion or speculation that I don't like discussion and won't be happy at Wiki, let me point out to you all that this again is a cheapshot aimed at me personally and very unlike Wiki. It is also easily disproven by my being readily agreeable to discuss the matter in this forum in the first place. --Mmounties (Talk) 13:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
What arguments? all you do is restate in various ways that the change from one word to another should be made because you think it should be so. I just don't have time to keep coming back to repeat what has already been said before, only to have you misunderstand it all over again.
I don't see any need to argue with you any further, because I am already convinced that the idea is a bad one, and I've also made it clear why I think that. There is nothing stoppng other people discussing it with you if they want to: it looks like they don't. The points for and against changing the word "district", which is established usage and entirely correct, to "county", for no other reason than that the US use it and that's what you want, have now been laid out in detail and people are capable of making up their own minds on that basis.
Turning to other things, contrary to what you seem to think I have no interest in attacking you personally and am not trying to do so. You are however trying to push through a huge unnecessary POV change with a bulldozer, and you are becoming unpleasant for no other reason than that you are being challenged on it, and I do object to that. I really don't believe that you will enjoy Wikipedia if you find disagreement so threatening; but that's your problem, and you know what? I really don't care. It's very big of you to condescend to "discuss" your proposals in this forum before just barging ahead and doing them - oh sorry, you ARE going ahead and doing them. Staffelde 14:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, you're not being entirely truthful. I have used County for pages I created and for links to those pages. That is all. I have not changed usage of the word district on existing pages. Contrary to your insinuations, I do not push a POV, but rather am trying to have this be a proper debate where pros and cons are discussed. That is a far cry from bulldozing anything. It's really too bad you don't think you have the time to address my counterarguments because you are the one who asked for them. I have given ample reasons for why I think county is the better choice. I can only suspect, you are not willing to address them because you have no leg to stand on if you have to actually address the true argument. If you do, prove it. You have argued facts that were none and now refuse to comment on the real facts. Instead of attacking the arguments you have decided that attacking me is the easier Way to go. Contrary to your implying so, I do not find disagreement threatening and I have not engaged in name-calling. The same cannot be said of you. I don't want to follow your example and put words in other people's mouths, but I suspect they most likely don't care to participate in the argument anymore because they don't care to be the target of personal attacks and badmouthing. What I am asking for here is that an honest attempt is made to determine which is the better word to use. That is not pushing a POV, unless POV has all of a sudden gotten a new meaning. So far, the only person who was willing to argue in earnest was User:Kusma and I don't think we disagree on that point anymore. I am sure we can, if an honest attempt is made properly and in a civil manner debate the points. --Mmounties (Talk) 20:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

It is true that I asked you to comment in detail, and I have therefore interlined my comments in your reply, including why I consider your efforts POV. I hope you will now consider moving on. The result is precisely as I said - you don't deal with the points put to you: in fact, on some occasions you have clearly not even read them. I also note that you manage in the single paragraph above to claim not to engage in "badmouthing and namecalling" while simultaneously calling me a bully and a liar! Staffelde 01:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
To clarify my opinion on this matter: I strongly favor consistency, which is why I am not completely happy that the recently created templates use "county" while the articles are titled with "district". I don't have a very strong opinion on which term is best - while I am leaning towards "district", that is perhaps mostly because that is the status quo. Kusma (討論) 20:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Stepping round the nonsense, I agree that consistency is very important, but perhpas not so important as to sacrifice correct translation.
I stand by "district", because it already means the same as "Kreis" (if it's not broke, don't fix it), because it is already in extensive use and because it lends itself better to the variants "rural district" = Landkreis and "urban district" = Stadtkreis. I have never had a problem with "kreisfreie Stadt" = "independent city". I continue to think that "Regierungsbezirk" = "administrative region", rather than "administrative district", is a better option for the avoidance of confusion. I object to the use of "county" (except as the translation of "Grafschaft") for all the reasons already given, the main one of which is that it comes with too much baggage, ie, it carries too many specific meanings elsewhere to be a clear word. We have now looked at whether there is any kind of official translation policy anywhere significant to be taken into account, and there isn't. Wikipedia also discourages unecessary switches between US and UK terms, unless there is very good reason, and here there isn't: in terms of accurate translation, nothing is actually gained from changing to "county" - it just makes a stack of unnecessary extra work.Staffelde 01:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me approach this another way. If we were discussing from scratch whether to use district or county, there would not be much in it: it's possible to make a case for both (although I would still think district the better choice). But we're not: there are 1000s of existing articles and templates using "district", and till now there has been no argument about it, BECAUSE there is nothing wrong with it. If we change now, there is a huge amount of work to be done, for nothing more than to change one OK word to another; and it may well go against the Wikipedia guidelines on US/UK English in any case.
For such a change to be worth making, it doesn't seem enough to demonstrate that county is as good as, or even marginally better than, district: to justify it, it has to be clear that the change is significantly better: so much better that it really is worth rewriting the 1000s of articles/templates, fending off challenges on possible violation of the guideline, changing established practice and fighting out the numerous revert wars that are likely to take place when people who have not seen this discussion find "their" articles being "switched". It hasn't been shown that "county" is so much better that all this time and effort is worth it, and I don't believe it can be.
So if and when you get to voting, I vote that we keep "district".
Let me also apologise for making such a bad job of this. You are trying to build a useful community and the last thing I want to do is to obstruct that, even though I'm not a "joiner" myself. All I can say is that I really think that this proposal, coming so far down the line, is a bad one, and I have regrettably let my temper get the better of me over it.Staffelde 15:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I like district-free city more than urban district. I would not use independent city. If district=Kreis than district-free is more precise. (this rhymes fine) But what about Bezirk? Berlin has Stadtbezirke. Some Länder have Regierungsbezirk. Shouldn't they use the same term for Bezirk? Government district, City district? Then district=Bezirk. Is there no other word similiar to district that can be used (beside county). Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tobias, I realised I just said your suggestion here (district-free city) was wrong and thoght I'd be polite and explain why :-) - "district-free" could be understood as "with no districts", the same as "dirt-free" means "with no dirt", etc. It could be rather confusing.Saint|swithin 20:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there any difference between Kreisfreie Stadt and independent city? Olessi 20:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
See the translations from the EU below I just added, which provide an alternative explanation for "Kreisfreie Stadt" that kind of explains it.Saint|swithin 20:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

EU "official" translation of Kreis, where I got the terms now used from in the first place

(I'm moving the first part of this from above, didn't see the discussion continued down here...) Hi all, I missed this discussion. I just thought I'd add that I was the one who introduced "rural district" and "urban district" which at the time were the recommended translations I found in a list from the EU on how to translate the names of administrative districts in different European countries. I spent a long time going around changing from the old (wrong) translations which were something like "district-free city" etc. All that research and hard work and now you want to change it :-( I'll try to find that list again, but I've looked for it since then and not been able to find it. In the meantime, Langenscheidt Muret-Sanders (2004) G-E dictionary has "rural district" as Landkreis, "kreisfrei (Stadt)" as "administered as an independent district" Saint|swithin 20:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

See more of that discussion further down the page. I'd be very much interrested to see that list. Agathoclea 20:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've found it again. It is the European Commission Style Guide for translating into English, is very large and can be found here as a pdf: [2]
"KREIS:Translate as district."
"KREISFREIE STADT:As this is exactly the same level as a Stadtkreis, the translation urban district will generally be satisfactory. Should it be necessary to distinguish between this term and a Stadtkreis, use town constituting a district in its own right."
"LANDKREIS:Translate as rural district."
"STADTKREIS:Translate as urban district."
My reasoning was that a) they must know what they are talking about :-), b) Germany is in the EU so using the EU standard might be a good idea and c) county has different meanings in the US and the UK and so might cause confusion. Saint|swithin 20:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
REGIERUNGSBEZIRK/BEZIRKSREGIERUNG:If you translate these terms, use 'government region/regional government', not 'government district/district government', so as not to cause confusion with Kreis. Olessi 20:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Page 109 if anyone has problems finding it. That was exactly what we needed! Agathoclea 22:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
At last - something to be grateful to the EU for... Staffelde 00:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
well then... Gryffindor 01:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
well then, that seems to be a good outcome and as far as I'm concerned the end of the discussion: the status quo, backed up by the EU official doc that had previously been despaired of. Staffelde 11:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the consensus previously was that if we could esablish an "offical" German or EU translation we would go with that. I don't think we can get a more official statement. So far no-one has objected since then, so I agree with your assessment that the discussion is over. I have removed the link from the RfC page. Only question left is if we should archive this discussion for later use together with the list of "standard" translation terms? Agathoclea 11:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you do, please find an easily accessible place to keep the terms and their source available for future reference. This won't be the only subject where "agreed translations" will be valuable - architecture, for example, is another area where they would be of use. Is it possible to set up - in effect - a repository of agreed terms? Staffelde 13:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I also think this closes the discussion, especially because we now have a translation guide that covers all these questions in a consistent way. Thanks to Saintswithin for digging this out! Kusma (討論) 17:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I was tied up with work very badly. Sorry for not returning earlier. But yes. Thanks, Saintswithin. If the EU has official translations that should certainly be good enough for us all. I would suggest archiving the discussion and having the standard translations easily accessible and linked to the discussion (I'd suggest from the GSNB page). That way when new contributors come on they can see that the matter was discussed and a consensus was arrived at so that we hopefully don't need to have the discussion again. --Mmounties (Talk) 03:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)